On this episode of Period Story, I speak to Dr Sula Windgassen, the health psychologist and author of the book It’s All In Your Body.
In this episode, Dr Sula shares:
- Why getting told the issues you’re experiencing are ‘all in your head’ inhibits healing and fosters a message of distrust, isolation and disconnection
- Why categorising psychology as woo woo can preclude so many people that could directly benefit from working with themselves in a slightly different way
- How our psychology and biology can impact each other though psychobiological loops and change multiple systems in our body
- Why it’s important to accept our feelings and experience them in our window of tolerance
- The impact suppressing emotions has on the physical body
- What symptom spirals are and how to interrupt them
- And of course, the story of her first period
Dr Sula says that she wrote her book for people who feel unseen and dismissed in their suffering to know there are options and it’s not all in your head.
Thank you, Dr Sula!
Get in touch with Dr Sula:
Her book: It’s All In Your Body
Her podcast: https://www.howwereallyfeel.com
Dr Sula’s Bio:
Dr Sula Windgassen is one of the UK’s leading health psychologists, a published author of ‘It’s All In Your Body’, researcher, founder of Body Mind Connect and founder and supervisor of Mind Body Blossom Clinic.
Whilst she is a psychologist, researcher and author, she has also been a patient and her motivation to change the lives of others started there.
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SHOW TRANSCRIPT
Le’Nise Brothers: Hi, Sula. Thank you so much for coming onto the show today. Let’s start by me asking you the question I ask all of my guests, which is tell us the story of your first period.
Dr Sula Windgassen: Yeah, my first period was, I think I was 10 years old. And I still remember I was in my dad’s en suite toilet and it came and I think I knew exactly what it was and what was happening, and I think I’d been preempted that it was going to happen because I’d heard stories from my mum that she’d started her period really, really young, like aged eight or nine.
So I think I was, I was aware that I would probably have it young and also age 10, I had grown breasts and pubic hair and armpit hair and all of that kind of stuff. So it wasn’t so much of a surprise, but I do remember, um, feeling like a, a, a pride of like, oh, you know, now I’m grown up, which obviously is quite funny, age 10.
Le’Nise Brothers: And once you got it, did you speak to anyone about, uh, what happened?
Dr Sula Windgassen: Yeah, I was lucky because I think there must have been like casual conversation in the background. Me and my dad had a very good relationship and my mum and dad were, um, divorced. So I was at his house when it happened and I just called him and he I can’t remember exactly what he did, but he was just like, oh, wonderful.
Le’Nise Brothers: If you think about it, like thinking back now, 10, as you say is, is quite young. And even though, you know, when you’re that age, you think, oh wow. I’m like, I’m a big girl now. I’m so grown up. It’s a lot, you know, these big changes. What was your experience of your period like and how did you tackle it at school and what with your friends?
Dr Sula Windgassen: It’s interesting because I always felt quite different at school for lots of different reasons. You know, I was probably the only Indian kid in my school. I seemed to be the only only child in my school. There might have been other kids with divorced parents, but like, it wasn’t that common. And so I always felt a bit different anyway, and I had quite an active imagination, so I’d be quite happy, like playing games on my own, in my own mind.
This was just like another thing that I think set in my mind oh you are different. And then obviously developing externally, you know, obviously that being accelerated compared to the other girls that were just like straight up and straight down.
Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah.
Dr Sula Windgassen: So I don’t think I really shared it with anybody. I don’t feel like I had safe relationships in school to really talk about that kind of thing. In my primary school, I, I, I don’t think I ever really had that many friendships that felt like you could discuss that kind of thing. And I was already aware of like having my differences pointed out, like boys pointing at my breast or like, you know, grimacing at seeing armpit hair, realising I had leg hair and trying to shave it and things like that. So it wasn’t something that I spoke about in primary school, but interestingly in secondary school.
It, it wasn’t something that I felt like I had to hide and it felt, it felt like I could be a bit prouder of it.
Le’Nise Brothers: What was the difference? Was it getting older? Was it a different environment?
Dr Sula Windgassen: Both, I think, I think it was the different environment and having a closer group of friends in secondary school eventually.
And being older. And so like, then it becomes the advantage of like, oh, you are more experienced. You’ve been doing this for a long time. Versus yeah not knowing what’s, what’s coming. So there was benefits to it as well as difficulties, I’d say.
Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah. And what was your experience of your period like?
Was it easy? Was it painful? Was it heavy?
Dr Sula Windgassen: I don’t remember it ever feeling physically uncomfortable.
Le’Nise Brothers: Mm-hmm.
Dr Sula Windgassen: In fact, it’s only in recent years where I feel like my period has changed and feels a bit more dramatic. And I think as you know, my body’s changing and hormones are changing and things like that.
But certainly when I was younger I don’t remember it feeling that uncomfortable. And I do think because I’d had some kind of socialisation to what periods are and that you might feel a bit tender, and my dad, especially was very good at being like so he’s Dutch and there’s a phrase that’s translated from Dutch of Are you sickening for something?
Which is like, I mean, the way that I interpret it and, and the way that he applied it was is your body asking you for something because you’re kind of unwell? And so I think that’s such, such such a lovely phrase ’cause it’s like, oh yeah, my body’s telling me something. And I think that really helped when it came to my period of like, oh yeah, you know, the sugar cravings or whatever.
So
Le’Nise Brothers: was it a kind of him almost teaching you to tune into your body from a young age?
Dr Sula Windgassen: I think so. Yeah. I do. It vividly stands out and so, and as I’ve been exploring this concept of interceptive awareness more explicitly recently, those kinds of memories come back to me. So I think it was quite formative.
Le’Nise Brothers: Talking about interceptive awareness and tuning into your body, in your book, you talk a lot about your health and the issues that you were experiencing. Did your dad talking about, it’s just sickening.
Dr Sula Windgassen: Yeah.
Le’Nise Brothers: What is your body sickening for? Did that help you in your health journey?
You talk about it quite extensively in your book. Did that kind of early awareness help you at all?
Dr Sula Windgassen: At the beginning, probably not so much. Because I was just so threatened by the symptoms and, and overwhelmed. And I think my brain was just going into catastrophe mood. And yeah, my body was horrified at the physical experiences.
So it was harder to, to have that more curious, gentle, calm approach around it. But at the point at which, as I think of it, I’d hit rock bottom in terms of being completely shut down, deactivated, feeling hopeless, and not really getting anywhere physically in the medical system or otherwise.
That was the point that my dad was then suggesting the same thing in a different way, right? He, he said, why don’t we try this mindfulness practice? Because he was doing a master’s in mindfulness and essentially that’s what mindfulness is to build that interceptive awareness. So it he reintroduced it at that point, and I think the foundation then of, oh, what is your body telling you helped me perhaps meditate from that more observational perspective strand position then is necessarily that easy to do when you first start.
Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah. And it’s really interesting this mindfulness and tuning into what your body is telling you, because certainly I see this in my practice. A lot of the women I work with get told that issues that they’re experiencing are all in their head.
And in your book you’ve written that you think that this is a harmful message and that it, it inhibits healing and it fosters a message of distrust, isolation, and disconnection. Can you just say a little bit more about that?
Dr Sula Windgassen: Yeah. It’s such a pervasive message. Especially for women.
Interestingly, I was just with my colleagues at Kings, we are doing some research to explore the impact of being dismissed when you’re experiencing physical issues. And one of the hypotheses we’re testing is what I put forward in my book, which is, does this negatively impact your ability to listen to your body?
Does it negatively impact also how your body responds to your own symptoms and stress and increase inflammation and things like that. So we’re, we’re early-ish on in the journey, but I’m expecting that we’ll get data that really supports that. But the premise that I set out in, in my book is if you think about how threatening it is to have a very real physical experience, that in itself is very difficult, very alarming, disruptive.
That’s its own threat. But then if you have that experience and you are trying to elicit some support to improve it, and you’re received as though you are not really having that experience, not only does that then shut down the possibility of I can be helped, which is traumatising ’cause that is a very trapping experience.
That’s the theme that comes up time and time again as well when I’m working with people, I feel trapped. I feel powerless. So that opportunity’s been shut down. But also there’s this potential reduction in trust in what is my experience then? Like, I think I am feeling this, but especially if it’s repeated messages in lots of different ways, telling you, no, it can’t be that bad, or it’s not what you think, or it’s normal.
It really erodes this sense of, oh, I can’t trust what I’m feeling and where do you go from there? And in, in the book, I have this diagram about a process called multisensory integration, which is essentially how our brain pulls in all of these signals, all of these kind of bodily signals from hunger, thirst, nerve signalling, brain activations, et cetera.
And it combines it with our past memories, our present context, our social situations. And then it pulls all of that data together to, to give us a reading on what the reality is. You can see just how disrupted that is going to be, that equation and that calculation, if it just keeps not marrying up that internal experience with what you’re getting externally.
And so like on, on a physiological level your brain can then get very confused. On one hand it’s like, well, you’re not feeling, you’re not feeling what you think you’re feeling, but also I’m scared about that. And so then, you know, another bodily system responds in that way and then you get some other kind of symptoms and then you’re told whatever, whatever, you know.
So it just builds and builds and builds. So there’s my sense and I present a lot of research in the book is it causes so much physiological disruption to be told it’s all in your head. It’s not real. And I don’t think people really realise the extent to which it does.
Le’Nise Brothers: I think that’s fascinating and I think that really, for anyone listening who has experienced that, what you have said will really resonate.
And I wonder, given that the medical system is quite paternal and we do give a lot of weight to what GPs say, so doctors, they go to medical school for many years. And so there is this, it’s changing now, but there has still this overwhelming ethos of what I say goes, I’ve gone to medical school, don’t confuse my medical degree with your Google search.
You know, all of these things that we’ve heard. And so when you are, you know, you’ve mentioned that framework before, is there more weight that’s given to words from a doctor because of their place in society?
Dr Sula Windgassen: Absolutely. And the research reflects that as well. Even if part of you explicitly is like, I don’t agree, there’s the more background, contextual implicit cues that your brain has got just by virtue of the position and as you say, the medical training and the power inequality in, in that.
So again, it causes more internal conflict because part of me is like, well that doesn’t seem right. Uh, and it definitely doesn’t marry up with what’s going on for, for me, whilst other brain processes, you know, have been trained to accept what they’re saying. And definitely that’s something that I see play out time and time again in my sessions where there’s been such an erosion of self-trust and such uncertainty and doubt and, you know, all of the things that come from that.
And if it’s relevant in our sessions, we’ll try and understand where the brain’s got quote unquote stuck. Like, what is, what is causing so much mistrust? And often it does go back to these experiences where even though explicitly, they’ve dismissed it and they’ve said, that was a terrible doctor, that wasn’t helpful for me.
But the part of the brain still remains stuck on, but that doctor said, you’re not going to get better, or that doctor said whatever they will have said. And so we doing a bit of processing. I use a therapy called EMDR, so eye movement desensitisation reprocessing to, to help the brain kind of elicit all of that and all of the conflicted emotions around that.
And a lot of the time it is just you are feeling so vulnerable in that moment and so unsure and they’re presenting as so certain and yeah, so full of authority.
Le’Nise Brothers: I wanted to ask you about EMDR because it has been in the news a few times recently. You know, we have Prince Harry who’s talked about how it’s been really helpful for him in processing certain experiences and events that he’s gone through.
And despite the research showing that it is beneficial, it’s still being labelled as woo woo. I’m sure you’ve heard this, so, you know, working in mindfulness, talking about mind body connection, this phrase, woo woo, how do you combat that? Like, what is your response to that term?
Dr Sula Windgassen: It’s so hard, isn’t it? It it, it’s one of the reasons that I wrote this book because I think that categorisation of this realm of science as woowoo precludes so many people that could directly benefit from working with themselves in a slightly different way. I also think that categorisation of this realm of stuff being woo woo perpetuates stigma because the reality is our mind and bodies interconnected, and we can objectively see that in, in all sorts of studies.
Psycho neuroimmunology, neuroscience, you know, we’ve got all of these fields that show us what happens in our internal psychological experience translates. Uh, and it’s not always in one particular way. And of course it’s individual differences, but it does translate. And we have to be interested in how that translates for us.
The question of like, how do you combat that? I think it is about trying to break down some of these concepts as tangibly as possible and explaining the science a little bit in a way that, that makes sense to people. So for example, in the book I talk about stress and I break down how we conceptualise stress automatically and how that then can make us feel like when we’re talking about stress manifesting in the body, might, why that might make it feel more woo woo when in actual fact if we break down what stress is.
So three things and three quite different things. One being the external stress stressors, you know, a deadline, um, an irritable boss you know, a child having difficulty. The stressors can also be internal. So like when you’re experiencing symptoms, we don’t have like a, a huge degree of control over our stressors.
Some degree may be for some, but not all. When you get told to manage your stress or doctors say, oh, you know, this is stress. You can see how that automatically lands as dismissing because you wouldn’t elect to have these stressors. So, it’s, it seems like a non-sequitur. But then if we break down the other two elements of stress, so stressors, things that are stressing us out, stress, our stress response, which can be further broken down into our psychological experience.
So I’m feeling stressed and our physiological experience, which is our bodies responding to activate to demands. And it can do that in lots of different ways. It’s not always an elevation. Sometimes it’s like a depression of things, of like, wait, let’s see what happens. Um, and the psychological and physical doesn’t always marry up.
So we can be getting that stress response acutely without necessarily feeling psychologically stressed. In fact, most of us, I would say live 90% of our lives without stress response and we’re not really relating to as though we’re really stressed, which is good in lots of ways. And again, it’s not necessarily something that we can intervene on or would always want to intervene on because it’s just natural to what’s happening.
You know, if there is a, you know, a sudden stressor your child runs out into the road, we want that natural automatic response. We don’t want to have to like add in a filter necessarily. But then the last bit is our stress kind of reactions. So how we then are responding to the stress that we’re experiencing, whether we’re even noticing it, you know, we’ll have a big determination on that. And then whether we’re engaging in things that are approaching the stressor, like I can see this is difficult for me.
Let me see what I can do, whether we’re avoiding it, whether we’re approaching it, but putting too much pressure on ourselves. That’s the bit that we might be able to intervene on. But of course, it’s impacted by the first two layers, so we can’t, we’re not always fully able to have control over that, but we can at least exert the degree of control that we have.
And I think when people understand the second stress that I mentioned, the physiological stress and how that can be quantified in the body, like we see cortisol level changes. We see it changing in lots of different ways. It’s not always an elevation, that might be more acutely, but with chronic stress, it’s often like a depression, of course.
So, so we don’t have the resources that we need to activate because we’ve been stressed for too long. We can see our heart rate go up, we can see our heart rate variability go down. We can see all of these physical changes in the body. We know that inflammation changes. So I think when you get really familiar with this is a thing for everyone, not just me then we can feel more motivated to work with.
Okay. So if that is a physical thing, then there are opportunities for me to intervene. Just like, being sedentary. We know that’s not great for health. And so we can adjust our behaviour maybe to, to shift that. It’s the same with, with this stress process, but there’s just more variation.
Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah.
And what you’ve shared there is, getting to the heart of what your, your book, so your first book, It’s All In Your Body, was released earlier this year. So firstly, congratulations.
Dr Sula Windgassen: Thanks.
Le’Nise Brothers: It’s amazing. An amazing thing to have a book out in the world. And we talked a few weeks ago about how it’s just the first part of a, you know, a, a long journey.
So it’s a practical roadmap to healing through mind body connection. So we’ve just started to explore the idea of mind body connection and how everything is interlinked in the body. For someone who has a physical condition. So I’ll bring up endometriosis because that’s how we first connected, where there are a lot of physical manifestations that someone can experience, primarily pain.
Dr Sula Windgassen: Mm-hmm.
Le’Nise Brothers: How would the mind body connection work for someone with endometriosis?
Dr Sula Windgassen: So this relates to something that I talk about in the book, and I try and break down in different ways, which is what I call psychobiological loops, which is this interplay between our psychology and our biology. And it can be any direction, right?
So like, there might be a biological shift that impacts our psychological experience, which then impacts our biology. And so it goes round. And it can be the other way round as well. For example, when we were talking about stress, we might experience something psychologically stressful and then that shifts our biology, and so it goes round.
But like all of these avenues for psychology and biology impacting each other often overlap and then change like multiple systems in our body. So if we take endometriosis, there’s pain in endometriosis often because of the nature of endometriosis, the physiological, um, lesions and inflammation that’s there, and that can be dependent on like the type of endo, the degree of endo, et cetera. But what we also know from the research is it’s not just related to the type and degree of endometriosis. There are people with like deep infiltrating endometriosis that don’t have so much pain. So there are other reasons.
There are other factors that influence pain and, we can work with those other factors to potentially influence the physical outcomes. What I always want to make clear, especially when I’m talking about these kind of conditions where we can, see tissue changes and we can see the structural element of them, my position is not, you can change everything through the power of your mind and emotions and what have you, but just that often it’s an untapped part of the equation that can have a, a significant influence.
So if we take someone with, if we take two example case studies of people with endometriosis, one person has, let’s say they’ve got exactly the same kind of, um, endometriosis, but one person has had lots of medical trauma being dismissed by doctors, didn’t get a diagnosis for nine years, now has to battle to go back to her GP and they often are precluding her from the particular meds that she needs.
Partners not so supportive and rolls her eyes whenever she’s like, I don’t think I can go into work today. And, work are just about flexible enough, but they’re, um, often kind of adding on the pressure to her. And we make a contrast to somebody with the same endometriosis, but they went to the healthcare system and actually were listened to, got put on a diagnostic pathway, maybe it took two years instead of nine years. They’ve got good access to their GP. Their GP listens to them, they feel included in medication decisions. Their partner asks ’em what they need when they’re going through a flare et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
You know, work doesn’t put any pressure on them, lets them work from home. We can see that psychological experience from the social experience makes a massive difference. The two elements, like how we feel socially and how we feel emotionally, again, physiologically manifest in what’s happening in the body.
So the more socially rejected or the more we feel at risk of social hostility, we know that changes what happens in our body. We know that changes how our brain’s processing. We know that changes, um, potential inflammatory markers, all that sort of stuff. Both of those things interact with the experience of endometriosis, right?
So if our brain’s more activated in the regions that process pain as well as threat, that’s more likely to then upregulate, um, messages that we are getting from nerve signals. Um, which can then also change how the nerves are working in the particular regions, if we’re if we’ve got change neurochemistry and hormones because we’re feeling threatened and stress that’s going to impact on that systemic inflammation.
So like that person who’s feeling isolated and dismissed is going to be much more symptomatic, most likely because of all of those added elements. Whereas the person that feels supported, that feels in control is much more likely to have at least feel more in control, but have a better symptom experience and, and not feel so threatened by symptom fluctuations.
It doesn’t mean that they won’t have any symptom fluctuations or any symptoms, but the broader experience of that and the degree in severity is likely to be massively impacted. So this is true for somebody with endometriosis. This would be true for someone with multiple sclerosis. This would be true for someone with I irritable bowel syndrome because for all of us there, there is that interplay on multiple different levels.
And what I try to do in the book is kind of help people identify what different psychobiological loops they might be experiencing, when they’re on their own, when they’re in company, and how that might then impact and interact with their own physiology.
Le’Nise Brothers: And just to kind of add on to this topic, in chapter six of the book, you ask, are you thinking yourself better or are you thinking yourself sick?
And I found that really interesting because some people might think that’s a bit victim blamey, but other people might find that quite empowering. Can you just say a little bit more about what you mean by that?
Dr Sula Windgassen: It’s interesting actually because I wrote that sentence as in, that’s the fear that people often have rather than, that’s the question that I’m asking because when we’re talking about the role of thoughts, like you say, some people can be like, oh, if my thoughts have an impact, then I can work with that and, you know, make things better.
But I work with far more people that are horrified of hearing about the role of thoughts in illness because they’re like, well, I can’t control all of my thoughts and therefore I’m making my own symptoms worse, et cetera, et cetera. So I wanted to kind of label that thought process in and of itself as like, that’s not it’s not about mind over matter.
And I think I talk about that quite explicitly in that chapter. It’s, it’s not mind over matter. It’s not that our thoughts are the most powerful thing. And we need to, you know, have purity of thought and always be controlling them. But there are, when we do recognise the role that not just our thinking in terms of the content of our thoughts, but the way that we’re cognitively processing has a role in our experience, then we can work with our internal world in that way to make it feel more threatening and also take some of the power out of it.
So one of the areas that I discuss in that is, this is intrusive thoughts happens for people with OCD, but it also happens often when you get ill because there’s a lot of fear, there’s a lot of automatic reactivity. Your brain’s just trying to figure things out all of the time. And so one of the things that we want people to really understand is, we all get intrusive thoughts and we can’t be expected to essentially not think things that we don’t want to think. So it’s less about that and it’s more about how do we respond when we get thoughts that, you know, causes pain in some way, you know, emotional or, or otherwise. And um, a lot of that is about going back to what we were exploring at the beginning, that kind of observational awareness of like, oh, that was a horrible thought that landed.
I can feel that. And seeing if we can get a bit of space from it doesn’t mean cancelling it out. It doesn’t mean replacing it with a a positive thought. It often comes back to this kind of compassionate acceptance. And I think that is a theme that runs through.
Le’Nise Brothers: I’m finding this whole conversation fascinating and it is reminding me a lot of what we talk about in vipassana meditation where it’s really about not attaching power to thoughts.
It’s about observing thoughts, seeing them, and then moving them on. And I found that really interesting. And you know, when I talk about it, there is scepticism and I think living in the UK as a culture, there’s this natural cynicism and scepticism about many, many things, but about a lot of the things that we’re talking about today.
What’s really interesting is that in the book you talk about emotional regulation. So thoughts are part of this, and we get taught that negative emotions are something to be suppressed. Why do you think, I mean, I know why, but I want to hear what you think about why it’s important to accept our feelings and experience them in what you call our window of tolerance.
Dr Sula Windgassen: Mm.
Yeah. Uh, it’s a great question. I think we love to think so, like that’s our preference and that’s often how we get taught to emotionally regulate. So if, and it’s really interesting for any parents listening as well to think about how you respond to your children when they’re upset. Often it is like a reasoning or a rationing.
It’s not that bad because then on Saturday, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Or well think about blah, blah, blah, blah. And like, that’s fine. And it is a, a, we know that cognitive reappraisal and reperceiving are really helpful tools for emotional regulation. The difficulty is where it’s done at the expense of ever just allowing the feeling to be there.
Because often we have feelings that are completely proportionate and understandable because of what we’re experiencing, and therefore they don’t really need to be chased away. And chasing them away actually creates more stress and tension and erodes the relationship that you have with yourself. It’s kind of like a betrayal.
I, I think of it like that these days. It’s no one’s fault. Everybody’s generally trying to help each other, you know, especially thinking about that parent example. But it’s just that we don’t get socialised to the fact that there are other ways to greet emotions. And sometimes it’s just ultimately much more powerful to label and be like, oh, you’re feeling really angry.
I get that. I, and I can see how worked up you are. What do you want to do? And it doesn’t mean like giving into a three or 4-year-old that’s like, I want the ice cream, then. That’s not possible. But like, what do you want to do to get rid of this anger? ’cause I see you’re frustrated. Like, should we go run round or whatever.
I often talk about these three choices that we’ve got with emotions of like, sit with, soothe or channel in some kind of a way. And we we often opt out of most of those things in favour of just thinking and, and try to perceive and, and, and get rid of. And the other interesting thing that I notice from my work with people is they often think that they’re not suppressing because they’re not actively trying to get rid of their emotions.
They’re not trying to push anything down. They don’t feel any effort. And I’m like, well no, your brain’s done that for you already ’cause it’s learned that a long time ago of like, that’s not a good emotion. Put that to one side. Um, let’s think instead let’s like let’s reason why it’s okay that that person did that.
Or like, why, you know, you shouldn’t be upset about it. Our brain’s already done that as a shortcut for us. So we are not feeling the emotion, we’re not identifying with it. And so it’s actually very hard to be like, no, your brain’s done a load of stuff for you before you’ve even realised we kind of need to go back four, five steps to entice the emotion back and give it some room.
It can feel quite intangible, but there’s so much interest in research showing that suppression physically impacts the body. I shared in the, in the book about this study about nurses. And how their diary entries were coded and nurses that suppressed more, had higher emotional suppression, had, uh, reduced diversity in their gut microbiome, which has a massive impact on our immune system, for example.
And there’s other interest in studies about, uh, the role of emotional suppression and, um, inflammation. So it can affect our body in so many different ways. Yeah, and it really is very physical. But it’s hard because there are the physical effects, but we don’t even realise that that’s happening for us.
And so sessions with me can be quite frustrating sometimes for people because it’s like, what’s just happened there? And often it is like someone’s being like on that automatic track of, but it’s okay because such and such blah, blah, blah. I’m like, you were just talking about how frustrated you felt and automatically your brain’s gone off to there.
They’re like, oh yeah, so like, let’s make some room for it again. And then I’d be like, yeah, I don’t really feel it anymore. Okay, well let’s just make some space to allow it. And they’re already off distracted on something else ’cause it’s so hard because it’s felt so not an option or unacceptable sometimes.
As we’ve been learning how to deal with these.
Le’Nise Brothers: This is so interesting and it makes me think of this research that we’ve seen about women and autoimmune conditions, and it makes me wonder about how, you know, women, they can be socialised to suppress negative emotions and to be kind of the caretaker and the cheerleader and how, as you say, this can manifest in the body and with inflammation and gut dysbiosis and how one of the worst end products of this is an autoimmune condition.
Is this something that you have seen in your practice and in, in the research?
Dr Sula Windgassen: It’s really hard with autoimmune conditions because. There’s just such a question mark about what is it that activates this autoimmunity? And I think about it from the 5 senses stress framework, right? If there’s some kind of biological predisposition that then gets activated, and I don’t necessarily think it’s just one thing that activates, I think it’s like a sequence that gets switched on, um, as we experience different things or exposed to different things.
And, and that can be, you know, environmental, but it can also be psychological and it makes a lot of sense that it would be from things like emotional suppression, because emotional suppression doesn’t just impact in one particular way. I gave the example of like gut dysbiosis, which seems a very direct route, but there’s also like direct shifts in the body from like indirect effects of self subjugation.
So like overexerting yourself because you’re so intent on looking after everyone else that you just fail to see what, what, what your capacity actually is. And then your body gets overloaded and, um, and there’s that cumulative wear and tear and things like that. So the pathways and the particular mechanisms we don’t have answers for, but there’s so much research showing that that overlap and that predictive role of stress and particular kind of, does have an impact, does seem to predict these sorts of conditions.
Le’Nise Brothers: Hmm. Something I want to ask you about is, something you referenced in your book about managing symptoms and how to interrupt symptom spirals. Because my specialty is periods and all things that fall out of that, what would you recommend for someone who is experiencing chronic menstrual related pain and they’re experiencing these symptom spirals, what would you recommend to them?
Dr Sula Windgassen: The very first thing is to explore, like what happens when you’re experiencing the pain and from that framework that I put in the book. But there’s also like a free handout on my website that people can download which is like when you get the pain, for example, or if there’s other physical discomfort and you can write down what that is.
What then are the offshoots of that, you know, how do you feel emotionally? What do you end up thinking and what do you end up doing? And there’s very understandable, natural thoughts, emotions, and behavioural responses that we would have from that. And some of them are totally, you know, proportionate and, yeah, we would have to kind of adhere to that. So like, there’s no way I can run that marathon. Yes, true. Wouldn’t be helpful to try and, um, disprove that kind of thing. But there might be other things that we identify as actually then potentially feeds into the pain processes or the, the feeling hopeless or isolated around pain or whatever it might be.
So again, it’s natural to want to withdraw when you’re in pain. So you might notice whenever you’re getting pain, you’re cancelling plans, you’re not going out, you’re just staying sedentary in one area. Spotting that could be a point at which we explore. Is there something that we can shift there and tweak?
And it doesn’t have to be the absolute opposite, keep all your plans and go out, but it might be like an in between, could a friend come over and you have some company, um, and veg out and have, no obligations to entertain. And what’s really interesting when you do start exploring these symptom spiral things is like the assumptions that come with that.
So that example that I’ve just given, if I put that to, to lots of people that I’ve worked with in the past, they might be like, but I would feel bad because I’m not going to be any fun and I might be in pain. And that might be annoying for someone. And, and so it goes back to this self subjugation of like, if I’m not on or, you know, on good form, then it’s unfair of me to ask for company, for example, or comfort.
And that in itself is a really interesting thing to evaluate. Is that true? Can we change that? Can we experiment with that? What happens? And it’s just these little investigations and experimentations that start to shift things. And so like, to use that example, somebody might then find, oh, there is one friend that I would feel comfortable asking to come over or even going over there, but just being on their couch.
And we ended up just watching movies and I fell asleep at 8:00 PM but it was super cosy and I didn’t feel bad. And so like, it doesn’t mean the pain disappears, but the sense of isolation and hopelessness and like, oh God, this is going to be me for the next however long that mitigates. And that’s so important.
We would obviously want to replace that experience with one that is, um, is much less, connected and, um, hopeless.
Le’Nise Brothers: You’ve written this very detailed, very informative and incredibly helpful book. I’m just lifting it up here. What do you want readers to get out of the book?
Dr Sula Windgassen: It’s interesting ’cause just today I, um, shared with my community, I feel like one strand is going really well of what I want for the book and one strand not so well.
So one strand of what I want for the book is for all of those people who feel unseen and dismissed in their suffering and feel hopeless or feel like there’s a lack of options. I wanted to open up options, you know, that there are other things that we can do to work with you and that doesn’t mean it’s all in your head.
And for them to really know that and like see how that works for them in practise. And and I’m very happy that the feedback that I’m getting back is that it is doing that for people. You know, so many lovely messages about, oh, I, I finally feel like somebody has seen my experience and gets it and isn’t telling me it’s all in my head and I can see how these things have an impact and I’m trying this out now.
That’s so important. The other thing, and this is the thing that I often talk about in my community, Body Mind Connect with people is and I talk about this in the book as well, we so often get fed the message that your healing is all on you, it’s all your responsibility. And that in itself is isolating and increases so much pressure, and it’s unfair. And it’s not like, it doesn’t make any sense as humans that that would be how we would heal.
So the other hope that I have for the book is that it meets a wider audience. So it’s not just the people who are themselves suffering or impacted by these issues, but it’s people around them the managers, the colleagues, the HR department, the GP, the healthcare assistant who, who can see more holistically how all of these processes actually have such a big impact and how they can play a part and reduce that stigma that people feel. And obviously that’s a much harder mission ’cause it involves wide reach. It involves, you know, trying to engage people that don’t think it’s relevant for them and showing them that it is even if it’s not specifically related to them in this moment in time.
That’s the thing that I am, that I would really like for this book to kind of help with shift the conversation so it’s not just woo woo.
Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah. Where can people find the book? You’ve mentioned some resources on your website. Tell us more about that.
Dr Sula Windgassen: Yeah, so the, the book can be found anywhere, um, on Amazon, in Waterstones, hopefully in your independent bookshop.
I had such a lovely member of the community call around so many different independent bookshops and, and check that they had it in stock. So hopefully you can get it pretty much wherever you get your books. Although today if you’re in Australia, it’s just sold out on Amazon, which is pretty cool.
Le’Nise Brothers: Wow, that’s amazing.
Not just pretty cool. That’s amazing.
Dr Sula Windgassen: Also, I, I got the, I looked at the screenshot and I was like, it’s so expensive in Australia, so thank you Australia. So you can get it anywhere you get your books. Also, I should say it’s on audiobook and I keep forgetting to say that because I know it can be quite hard to read nonfiction, especially.
There is lots of science in, I’ve tried to make it accessible, but my brain processes slow and I need to read things a few times. But if you, yes, if it’s, it’s easier to listen, you’ve got limited capacity. I’ve, I recorded it as well, so, um, you can listen to it on audiobook. I also, alongside the book, made these free resources.
So the referencing is all on the website. And there are workbooks, audios, sheets, signposting and resources that are related to each of the chapters and put in order just on my website, which is www.healthpsychologist.co.uk. So if you wanted to implement as you go, I mean, there’s prompts within the book as well, but there’s some extra things to help people.
Le’Nise Brothers: Fantastic. So all of the links for those will be on the show, in the show notes. So we’ve explored quite a lot today. You’re so interesting and I could talk to you for hours. But you know, you’ve gotta leave people wanting more. What’s the one thought that you’d love to leave listeners with today?
Dr Sula Windgassen: The one thought I’d love to, I suppose I’d love to leave listeners with the reflection of what is your relationship with your body? Do you actually see your body as an extension of yourself or do you see it as, you know, an incidental recipient and facilitator of like, what your mind does? How interconnected does it feel?
And how tuned into your body do you think you are? Do you feel able to actually hear it and honour it when it asks you something? So like really good examples of this is like when you feel hungry, do you eat or do you push it down because you’re like, no, I still need to get this work done. Do you even recognise that you feel tired?
Are you a sleep procrastinator? We have so many little habits that we do, that show us that we’re not really that interested in what our body’s telling us, and we can get away with it for such a long time. And we can get away with it, you know, repeatedly. But if we see our bodies as an extension of ourselves, then it is kind of like a betrayal to ourselves.
We’re not looking after ourselves and and then we get frustrated if, our body has difficulties. So I guess it’s a reflection and an invitation to just build that compassion through thinking about what is your relationship with, um, with your body?
Le’Nise Brothers: What is your relationship with your body?
A lot to unpack there for sure. So you’ve mentioned your website is the health psychologist co uk. Where can people find you on social media?
Dr Sula Windgassen: Instagram is the main platform that I am on, which is the_health_psychologist_ and I have just updated my YouTube channel because I’m about to release a podcast on Monday, which is called How We Really Feel, and the first season is deep diving, specifically pelvic and bladder health experiences from that bio-psychosocial lens.
So there’ll be, that will all be on YouTube as well.
Le’Nise Brothers: Fantastic. So all the links, as I say, will be in the show notes. Thank you so much for your time. It’s been wonderful to speak to you and your book It’s All In Your Body available wherever you purchase books. Please go out and get it. Thank you so much.
Dr Sula Windgassen: Thank you so much.