Category: Women’s Health

Period Story Podcast, Episode 29: Sabi Kerr, I Love Me As I Am Right Now

On today’s episode of Period Story podcast, I had the pleasure of speaking with Sabi Kerr, a self-love coach and yoga teacher. We had a beautiful conversation that got me a bit emotional at one point! We talked about Sabi’s journey on and off the contraceptive pill, the importance of accepting and sitting with ALL the emotions you feel, toxic positivity and moving away from positive vibes only and of course, Sabi’s first period!

Sabi shared the pride she felt when she got her period and how grown up she felt. She says that the conversations she had with her mum and her friends about periods were really open and accepting. How great is that!

We spent time talking about Sabi’s journey with the pill. She went on the pill when she was around 17, 18 years old and only came off it in January this year. She says she was sure that there was a bit of disconnect between her and her period and coming off the pill was her way of changing that.

Sabi had never had any issues or side effects from taking the pill. When she deciding whether to come off the pill, Sabi says she asked herself if she still wanted to be putting it in her body. She was moving back to London from Bali and felt it was the right time to make this transition.

Listen to hear about Sabi’s transition off the pill and what she learned about her menstrual cycle, including how she was able to make space for her emotions and find the permission to accept herself as she is. I confess that I got a bit emotional when we talked about this!

Sabi shared some beautiful affirmations and a mini practice to help name the emotions you feel. Sabi says that to truly love ourselves, we need to start where we’re at. Thank you, Sabi!

Get in touch with Sabi:












Sabi Kerr is a self-love coach and yoga teacher. She guides women to fall deeper in love with themselves and release the blocks they have to feeling worthy, so that they can create magical lives full of passion and purpose.

Through 1:1 coaching, workshops, yoga, retreats and group programs, Sabi’s mission is to guide as many people as possible back to their natural essence: a place of deep self-love, self-acceptance and joy.



Le’Nise: On today’s episode, we have Sabi Kerr. Sabi is a self love coach and yoga teacher. She guides women to fall deeper in love with themselves and release the blocks they have to feeling worthy so that they can create magical lives full of passion and purpose. Through 1-2-1 coaching workshops, yoga retreats and group programmes, Sabi’s mission is to guide as many people as possible back to their natural essence, a place of deep love, self acceptance and joy. 

Welcome to the show.

Sabi: Thank you so much for having me. 

Le’Nise: Let’s start off by getting into the story of your first period. Can you share with us what happened? 

Sabi: Yeah, I was thinking about this before I came on. I actually had a chat with my mum and to see if we could piece together the memory together because it was obviously quite a while ago. 

So I was around 12. And my mom remembered this, I didn’t. But it was at home and it was just in the toilet. And I called her in to have a look. 

And I do remember feeling quite, quite proud. Quite grown up. Quite like, I probably like, oh, I’m growing up with the grown up thing to have. 

So I think my feelings around it were feeling proud. Feeling quite happy. Feeling like I was probably like I’m you know, I’m more or about those kind of feelings. So yeah. I was. That was it. 

Le’Nise: Why do you think that you’ve felt so grown up?

Sabi: I guess it’s that that kind of transition when you’re you know, I was around 12. So about to be a teenager. So already that’s the kind of age where you’re starting to feel more grown up. Right. When you when you hit 13, it’s like, oh, I’m kind of a teenager now. So because it was around I was 12. It was around that age. I think any anything in life that happens that make makes you feel a little more grown up. And I guess having your period is one of those things. You’re no longer you’re still a child, obviously. But you associate that with something that a woman has, I think when you’re younger.

Le’Nise: And when you got your first period, you took your mum into the bathroom with you. What was her reaction and how did you how did she educate you about what was happening to you? 

Sabi: Yeah. So I can’t remember her exact reaction. But knowing my mum, I know it would have been quite an encouraging, like, oh, yay. Like, I don’t think she would have said well done. But it would have been quite encouraging and quite supportive. And obviously, she saw that I was feeling quite feeling quite proud about it. So I think it would have just been quite encouraging response she would have given me. 

Le’Nise: And then I guess you would you would have gone back into school and talked about it with your friends. How did they react? 

Sabi: It’s funny how many of these memories are clearer than others, and I haven’t got a particular memory, I just have a feeling. And I think the feeling that I had at that time was, yeah, this was something I talked about with my friends. I think probably some of them had already had theirs. Some of them hadn’t. I remember it being something that I spoke about quite openly with my friends in quite a neutral way. Like it wasn’t that it was great. It wasn’t that it was bad. It was just this is your period, you know. So, yeah, I think I remember speaking to friends about it and being quite an accepted thing to speak about. 

Le’Nise: That’s so interesting because the guests on the show, they’ve shared different reactions about getting their period and their conversations with their friends. And some some of them have said it was there was a lot of secrecy around it and they didn’t want to talk about it. But then others, like you, have said it was an open conversation. And actually, one guest I spoke to a couple of weeks ago said that it was they all thought it made them really cool and everyone wanted to be a part of the period gang. 

Sabi: Yeah, that that and again, these memories aren’t like that clear, but I feel like mine is probably more something like that, probably more, probably like feeling proud, feeling grown up, probably feeling cool was in there too. 

Le’Nise: And that feeling of being proud of your period, has that has that continued as you’ve gotten older, as you went through your teenage years and gotten older? 

Sabi: Yeah. Maybe not. Maybe it’s been an interesting journey, actually. I think after then, I think I probably just saw it as something that happened, you know, just something natural, something I didn’t really give much thought to. I saw it as something kind of neutral, not not nothing terrible, but also nothing in particular to celebrate, just something that happens. For me, it’s been a real process because I went on the pill when I was young, around 18, 17 even could have been until just recently came off it. And I’m 31 now. So around 13 years. It’s a long time not having a natural period. And that’s a long time, you know, suppressing something that’s a really natural part of you. So I think because I haven’t had hadn’t until now had a natural period for so long, there was I’m sure a bit of a disconnect between myself and my period, because it wasn’t a real period. And I knew exactly what was coming. I knew exactly how, you know, it was everything was kind of clockwork. I could stop when I whenever I felt like I could take another path of pills. 

So there was something there about around not fully celebrating it and coming off it. What month are we in now, June? About six months ago. I came off at the beginning of the year. 

And it’s amazing, kind of really getting to know your body better and feeling like now I feel like I can actually celebrate it, you know? And that wasn’t really there before. 

Le’Nise: Wow. So there’s so much I want to ask you. So can you talk firstly about why you went on the pill when you were 17, 18? 

Sabi: Yeah. Just for contraception. Just because that’s so. I didn’t have any. It wasn’t. No. Wasn’t any of the other reasons that people go on the pill, which aren’t contraception, it was purely for contraception. And just for that, feels like the easiest contraception to me. And I will say that my body was absolutely fine on the pill. I had no no negative side effects. Nothing bad happened, which was probably why I stayed on it so long. Because I never I felt absolutely fine. So yeah, so that was why I started going on it. 

Le’Nise: OK. And can you talk a little bit about why you decided six months ago to come off of the pill? 

Sabi: I think it had been a thought in the back of my mind for a while. I kind of thought, do I still want to be putting this into my body. Do I still want to have my body in a natural state continuously? Is it really needed? And that had been, that had been something that had been going on in the back of my mind for a while. But because my body had worked so well with the pill, I’d had I’d never had any. To my knowledge, right. To obvious knowledge, I’ve never had any side effects. Nothing had ever gone wrong. So it was just very easy to continue to take it. And I think that was probably all actually there was a worry of like if I stopped taking it, what might happen? Because you hear all kinds of stories about people coming off the pill after a long time and their bodies not liking the moment they come off. So that was something that was there for me as well. But I think it just got to the point of, like, now is the time. 

There’s no reason for me to continue. Like, this is a good. And I’d also come back to London from from Bali. So I felt like I was in a kind of safer place from a medical point of view, if I need to to the doctors or anything like that. So, yeah, it was kind of like, now is the time. 

Le’Nise: You had a very smooth time on the pill and then the transition off of the pill.  So can you talk a little bit about the last six months and how that transition has been, but also what you’ve started to learn about your body? 

Sabi: So many things. So firstly, I think my transition is, I don’t know. You will know more than me, actually. I only really know from my perspective and from what I’ve heard. I was worried about coming off the pill because I’ve heard, you know, horror stories about how hard it is for people. Actually, for me, it was the smoothest transition ever. I got my, you know. It was so much ever since coming off the pill. 

My cycle’s been 27 days, 28, 29, 30, in that space. Straight away. Straight away. So that was I was surprised. I wasn’t expecting that at all. At all.  Obviously, really happily surprised that my body was able to to go to that natural space so, so quickly. 

And feeling actually not that different. So it was like all of me, like feeling surprisingly like, oh, this was way easier than I thought it was going to be. What other things do I remember noticing? I remember noticing like that, the blood seems different. Like, oh, this looks like real blood now. Almost, I don’t quite know how to to sort of to describe it almost redder, almost just like almost just like how blood is supposed to be. 

So that was something funny that I remember noticing.

And I think what the most beautiful part of the last six months has been is tracking my cycle and making more space for all of my emotions, which is something that I do anyway. And a big part of my my work as a self-love coach when I’m working with clients and also just my personal self development work is really to welcome in all emotions. It’s to welcome in all of the things that I’m feeling and see that they’re all part of us and accept them and love them. And when you track your cycle, it gives you an even even more of a reason to do that. Yeah, I’m feeling like this. Like this is my hormones. This is how my body works. And it gives you even more permission to accept yourself as you are. To love yourself, and however, your emotions are each day in that moment. So I think that’s been a really, really beautiful process. And it’s been really aligned with what I try to practise anyway. So I’ve definitely really enjoyed that. Yeah. 

Le’Nise: What you said is so beautiful about, accept yourself as you are. I just I love that. I actually feel a bit emotional hearing you say that, because I know that that is a journey that a lot of people go through and perhaps they never get to that point. You you said that you’ve you’ve always been really aware of your emotions and you’re open to how you feel. Have you noticed, as you’ve been tracking your cycle over the last six months, any change in your emotions as you go through each of the phases? 

Sabi: Yeah. I need to put it all on a spreadsheet and do some data analysis. Which is something I have been planning to do. I haven’t got round to doing it yet. Sometimes I feel like I have, I’m still quite, you know, it’s quite early on in my tracking my cycle journey. 

Sometimes I find it challenging to know if this is my hormones or this is just what’s going on in my life right now. But a general feeling of the kind of. 

Yeah. Like the spring, summer fades, feeling more productive and being able to do more things. I think I think I’ve noticed that. I’ve definitely noticed that. And then when like moving into the autumn when and I don’t always feel crappy, you know, but if I do feel really crappy and I know it’s that phase in my cycle, that almost gives me more permission to be like, it’s okay. You’re having you’re having a crappy day like, that’s absolutely fine. It reinforces that that’s okay. 

Le’Nise: I think that’s really nice that you’ve been able to say to yourself, you know, that’s OK, and that it’s almost like not giving in to, you know, whatever kind of negative side, because I know that a lot of a lot of people, they they expect to feel bad when they get their period or right before they get their period.  And they you know, in that sense, I think it’s something that we’ve been taught that we just need to fall into this kind of abyss, is too strong a word. 

But this kind of feeling of, oh, I feel really down. I feel really negative about getting my period and how I feel right before my period. And I love the fact that you’ve given yourself permission to say that’s OK. 

Sabi: Yeah. Yeah. That’s OK. And sometimes I feel great. And that’s great too. And I think it’s it’s accepting whatever is without having to expect that you’re going to feel a certain way. But knowing that it’s all it’s all welcome. Yeah. 

Le’Nise: You seem very in touch with your emotions and very self-aware. And as a self-love coach, that’s something that you work with other people on. Can you talk a bit about your journey to getting to this place of openness and awareness? 

Sabi: Yeah, I think I see anytime you have things in life that are challenging, you know, any any moments that trigger those and the emotions, the kind of the shadow emotions. So so if you have if you think like the joy, the happy, the excited, the energetic, those are all the emotions that that we like to label as positive. Right. Positive. And the emotions like anger, the sadness, the grief, the frustration, we label them again, air quotes, negative. And we as humans really like to label those emotions as positive and negative. But I think what that does is it takes takes us out of, like, just the human experience to know these aren’t good or bad. They are all part of the human experience. And when we push away the so-called negative emotions, we push away a big part of what it is to be human. So I think my personal practise has been the times when I feel those more challenging emotions. So, you know, any life experiences that might trigger them. Anything that can happen that feels that feels quite challenging might trigger the anger, the frustration, the sadness, the grief, rather than bypassing them, rather than trying not to feel them, rather than rushing to the joy straight away, rather than numbing my emotions with food, with TV, with drugs, with all of the numbing mechanisms. Can you actually be with them and can you actually allow them and make a little space for them? 

Because it’s you know, it’s like anything that cliche of things often cliche because they’re true. The cliche of like you need to move through them to actually come out the other side. So you need to make space for them. So that’s something that I do personally and work with one to one client. And so I have like a little mini practice that maybe I’ll share. 

Of like actually naming the thing that you’re feeling. Making some space so you can take this as a little ritual or a meditation, naming. 

You can close your eyes, naming the feelings, the emotions that you’re feeling, the anger, the frustration, the sadness, whatever. 

And then, you know, just stay with them. 

Close your eyes, breathe there. Notice where in the body, you’re feeling that anger, that frustration, rather than pushing it away. You can say it’s safe for me to feel angry. I’m making space for myself to feel angry right now. 

And I love the parts of me, that are feeling angry. And that is that is like deep self love. My self love will never be positive vibes only. Self love is about welcoming in every single part of ourselves, including the part that feels angry, including the part that feels jealous. So I’m making space for that. Breathing there without the need to rush away, to push it away and sit there for as long as you need. You know, five minutes, ten minutes, an hour. Sometimes those strong, challenging emotions kind of dissipate by themselves just by sitting with them. 

Sometimes we need to actually release that can be like. Shaking the body, that can be punching a pillow, that can be screaming if you’re in a safe place, that can be like journalling it all out and releasing it with paper onto paper. Yeah. That is such an important process. I think for all humans to realise that these are welcome. And actually, when you welcome them in not wallowing in them, not like wallowing in them. But when you welcome them in and make a little space for them to be felt, that is actually how we get to the joy quicker anyway. You know, the actual actual real deep joy there. Don’t bypass those more challenging emotions. 

Le’Nise: Yeah, I, I love what you’ve said there because it, it’s something that we, we get taught like just don’t be angry, don’t cry. 

You know, you think about it like I think about and I actively do this with my son. 

I say, you know, it’s OK to cry. It’s okay. I know you’re angry. It’s OK to be angry because I remember when I was younger, you know, I was taught, you know, why are you crying? Don’t cry. It’s, you know, stop crying. 

And and I you know, I never cry now because I but when I do cry, it’s always like I am an ugly crier because I feel like it’s because I put I hold so much in and there’s so much to get out. And I actively say to my son, it’s OK to cry. It’s OK. OK, you want to scream right now, you can scream for, you know, a couple of minutes and then let it go and then you need to stop. But we get taught that we have to tamp down our emotions. Especially, as women to fit into this space and we make ourselves smaller and naming the emotions and sitting with them is so it’s different but it’s oh it’s just, it’s so, so powerful. 

Sabi: Yeah. It really, really is. I love what, I love what you just said about. Yeah. Making ourselves smaller by not expressing them because those are parts about our truth you know. Yeah. Those are parts our truth too. The angry parts, the frustrated parts, the sad parts. And we don’t allow ourselves to express them, we’re we’re shrinking our voice. You know, we’re we’re not allowing all parts of ourselves to be to be seen, which can be such a proud, uncomfortable, but really, really empowering when you start to welcome in all parts of your of your being.. 

Le’Nise: You said about how you don’t like, you’re not about positive vibes, only. Talk a little bit about this toxic positivity and what you see in the community, the coaching community, and also perhaps because you’re also a yoga teacher. Also what you see in the yoga community. 

Sabi: Oh, my goodness. Thanks for asking me this question. 

This is such a great question because I’m actually I’m doing a [IG] live tomorrow on the topic of spiritual bypassing. Which is which is just the right. Positive vibes only, like I think the initial intention was good. It would like to make people feel better, which was always a great thing to kind of want and aim for. 

Right. We all want to feel better. 

But the the challenge with positive vibes only is that it makes us feel bad if we don’t feel positive vibes all the time. And it’s like, guess what? It is human to not feel positive all the time and to to make people think they have to be positive all the time is to deny a big part of our human experience, which is all of the emotion. And if you’re positive vibes only, that is saying you have to deny every single one of the more shadow emotions, you know, and then you don’t get to express a big part of who you are. 

And yeah, so on. And that is a big part of spiritual bypassing this this idea that we can use spiritual concepts and terms and words like love and peace and light to bypass the actual real real issues and things that are going on in the world. To bypass the real injustices, to bypass like the the real challenges that people are having. And I see that a lot in the spiritual community, in the yoga community, the preaching of love and light, but then actually bypassing looking at the real issues of how I can really help people. The current racism issue is one of those examples, right? Yoga communities, wellness communities preaching love and light, but actually not doing anything to help the people that really need really, really, actually need help and that have been going on for, like, ever, you know. The spiritual industry is is commercialised now, it’s a moneymaking industry, and I think I struggle with the disconnect between the front facing message of love and light and peace. And then behind the scenes, lots of people not actually doing their real work to actually help people. So, yeah, it’s such is such a big topic. I think now more than ever, for our industry to really look at more. 

Le’Nise: What would you say to someone who they hear what you’re saying and they get that they need to, there’s a place for being angry. Feeling sad. But they they’ve said, actually, I don’t, I really connect with the positive vibes only space idea. But, you know, I just you know, I just don’t want negativity around me. 

Sabi: Yeah. And what I would say, why is anger negative? And this, again, come back to a human like inherent nature of impacting things as positive and negative. I would say, why is anger negative? Why is sadness negative? You know, why is grief negative? I think even just labelling them as negative gives us that connotation that they are bad. And, you know, most people feel like I’m one of the smiley people that I know. Right. I smile all the time like I’m a again, air quotes. I’m a positive person. 

But I’m a positive person that knows I can’t bypass the real stuff, the deep stuff, the shadows stuff. 

So I think anyone that says I just want to be positive vibes only I don’t want any negativity. If they’re then bypassing these more challenging emotions. There’s some stuff deep inside of them that needs to be looked at. A lot of the time. And, you know, the thing is, everyone is on their own journey. Right. 

And it’s not my responsibility, your responsibility, anyone’s responsibility to to make people see things until they’re ready. You know, it’s everybody’s individual responsibility to see the things going on in their lives when they’re ready to see them. And I think that it’s important to to remember as well. We can only do our own individual work. And most people will see the things when they’re when they’re ready to see the things. Yeah. Right now, maybe they’re bypassing because they just aren’t unable to hold space for themselves yet. Who knows? 

Le’Nise: What do you think about the idea that right now we’re going through a great awakening? 

Sabi: Mm hmm. Yeah, we really are. Wow. We so are. And I think. It’s interesting. I don’t know how you feel like being a woman of colour, at a time when so many white people in our industry are awakening to what’s going on with race and with racism. I know for me it feels like. Most of the world is just waking up to what I’ve known my whole life. 

We knew this and you didn’t listen to us. It’s that feeling of like. But that is great. You know, I’m I’m I’m glad it’s. It’s better now than never. And I’m glad that people are finally starting to realise it’s saddening and frustrating what had to happen for people to actually wake up. 

But I’m glad and I’m hopeful. It feels like this kind of a shift hasn’t happened in my lifetime that I’m aware of, you know. So I’m hopeful that more people are doing really important work. More than ever before. So, yes, there is definitely lots of lots of waking up going on. 

And I think that can only be a good thing, but it needs to be continuous. You know, it is like it needs to be something that continues to be looked at. 

I think especially on the topic of racism, it’s like this is not just a let’s do some education for a week and then go back to how we were before. It’s like there is no back to normal. There is no back to normal. This is the new normal. This is a new way of living. This awakening is welcoming in for a lot of people, a new way of looking at the world. And I think that’s what we need to realise that. We’re, yeah, we’re starting a totally new way of living. Yeah. 

Le’Nise: A new way of looking at the world and connecting with the way that a lot of people have already seen the world. And I think it’s really sad that it took these videos of Black death. Black pain for people to open their eyes and see what we already knew and have known for a long time. 

But I really I’m hopeful and I never would have used that word before. 

But I do feel hopeful that this change continues to make people evaluate the way they speak, the way they think about things. And I think, you know, just looking at the industry, the wellness industry, the industry that we both work in, I think there’s a lot of change that needs to happen. And hopefully people are open to that change happening. Yeah. I don’t want to go too deeply into diversity in wellness because I feel like it’s something that, you know, I. I am sure that you’ve been on a diversity in wellness panel. I definitely have. And I would love it if it just stopped being a conversation and just been a thing just to become a thing that people actually do. But I just want to ask you, what are the three things that you think need to be done in the wellness industry to make real change? 

Sabi: Yeah. Firstly, before any of the change happens, people need to know why they’re actually making the changes. I think this is the most important thing. I know. I’ve I’ve shared a lot of things and I’ve said a lot of things. And and maybe what I haven’t said enough, is that before, you know, like having women of colour on your podcast is great, having more people in teaching and yoga classes is great, looking at your teacher trainings and the teachers that are on there, the people that are coming, offering them bursaries. If they’re, you know, a person of colour like all these these things are great, but a very, very, very but, is first of all, this list is not exhaustive. It is not a checklist. And most importantly, you can’t do all those things without actually doing the education first and understanding why you are doing these things. You know that education starts with reading a book. It starts with going to a webinar, but it continues by hiring someone that is trained in diversity in wellness that can continuously, continuously help you or your company do that. So it continues by you hiring and paying a person that is an expert in this area that can help you and your company. And I think that’s that’s what needs to be a continuous thing. The education and the consulting and paying of people that are experts in this area to help you to implement all of the other things that need to be done. 

Le’Nise: I want to shift gears a little bit and go back to talking about the work that you do, because it’s so interesting. I’ve never I’ve never actually met a self-love coach before. So talk a little bit about why you decided to go into this particular area of coaching. 

Sabi: Yeah, so I was definitely. So I did a diploma in transformational coaching. And I’ve done lots of other other types of work beforehand. But I’m a yoga teacher as well. And as I was trying to get more specific on my niche, you know, I was like, I know I want to work with women. I know I want to help them transform their lives, I know I want to help them feel more empowered. And as I was wanting to get more specific on my niche, I realised the links, like all of the women that I’ve worked with so far, the kind of the link that connects all of them with this feeling of worthiness. And for them to have what they were truly desiring in their life, whether it was a more successful business, a more nourishing relationship, a lifestyle that they loved, more stability and whatever it was, the thing that was often blocking them was how worthy they felt of actually having their desires, how worthy they felt of them selves as they are right now. And. Therefore, how worthy they also felt of the things that they were calling into their lives. That was for me, you know, the the link that I saw. And lots of the time I see, you know, it is like to have a life that we are really desiring and that can look like the external goals of the home, the money, the job. But it can also look like the internal goals of just how you feel. And to have that life, we first need to believe that we’re truly worthy of having that life. So, yeah, that was that just feels like something I feel personally so, so connected to and so passionate about sharing. And I just really, really love seeing the transformations that women can make when they see and know that they are truly, inherently worthy just as they are. 

Le’Nise: If someone is listening to this and they they hear what you’re saying and they think I, I don’t I realise I don’t feel worthy in various areas of their lives. What would your message be to them? 

Sabi: Mm hmm. So first of all, it’s OK. We don’t have to jump from like I hate myself to I love myself overnight. 

So almost like almost like the kind of the shadow emotions I was talking about before. Can you learn to love the you right now that doesn’t feel totally worthy. Can you actually accept that you and welcome in that you and if you can work on that, that’s already, that’s already working on your self love. So knowing that it’s okay to make tiny incremental steps in self love to go from like self-hate to kind of just being neutral, to go from neutral to like loving yourself a little bit and knowing that that’s okay. Like, anything, any kind of mindset shift takes takes time, but it’s finding acceptance along the way. Self love is not a destination of you’re there and you’re done. And for me, it is the same. Self-love is something I practise every single day, every single moment. Life gives me opportunities to to love myself more. Especially those challenging times, especially when the shadow emotions come up, because it’s easy to love yourself when you’re happy, when you’re making money, when you’re like when you’re in a loving relationship, when everything’s going well. It’s really easy to love yourself then. But it’s like, can you find and make space to love yourself when you’re not feeling so great, when you’re not positive vibes only. Can you start to find some acceptance for you there in those moments? So that’s why I say start where you’re at. You don’t need you don’t need to conquer self love in a day. Start where you’re at. And a really beautiful affirmation. There’s so many. 

But it’s like it’s safe for me to be as I am right now or I love me as I am right now. 

Le’Nise: Wow. I love me as I am right now. Oh, wow. Chills, I’m feeling chills. So where can listeners get in touch with you? They listen to what you said. They they want to know more. How can they find you? 

Sabi: Yeah. So it’s because I’m really active on Instagram, which is just my name: @sabi.kerr. And my web site is www.sabikerr.com. So both of Instagram and my website, there’s information about me, about coaching if anyone’s interested in working together. So, yeah.

Le’Nise: Great. So if listeners take one thing away from all of the insights that you’ve shared on this show, what would you want that to be? 

Sabi: Hmm. Probably the last, probably that last affirmation that it’s safe to love you as you are right now, that you don’t need to be fixed, that you don’t need to be changed. That right now, as you are, you are enough.

Le’Nise: Thank you so much for coming on the show. It’s just been wonderful speaking to you. 

Sabi: Thank you so much for having me. It’s been so much fun. 

Period Story Podcast, Episode 28: Natalie Costa, Be Gentle With Yourself

On today’s episode of Period Story, I am so pleased to share my conversation with Natalie Costa, the founder of Power Thoughts. We talked about the importance of identifying which thoughts you choose to believe, managing pre-menstrual anxiety, and of course Natalie’s first period!

Natalie shared that her first period was a shock and something she wasn’t ready for. She says that slowly she started to become more accepting of it, but it wasn’t something she looked forward to (I’m sure a lot of you can relate to this!).

Natalie talks about growing in South Africa and how the conservative culture affected how she learnt about her period. She says it’s taken her time to become more open about talking about menstruation and that her former job as a teacher helped with this.

We talked about how Natalie learned to tune into her menstrual cycle more and how she connected this with work and the way she exercises. She says that she really has to listen to her body and resist doing high impact exercise when her body is craving something slow and steady.

Natalie says she asks herself: what can I do to be gentle with myself. She says she’s more aware of negative chatter that happens before her period and is able to manage it and work with it. Listen to hear the morning rituals Natalie uses to quieten down and centre her mind.

We talk about Natalie’s brilliant work supporting children by helping them tap into the power of their thoughts and recognise they don’t have to believe everything they think or respond to every feeling. Natalie shares some brilliant tips and I’ve been using them with my son!

Natalie says that as adults, we need to remember that we don’t need to believe every thought we think and that it’s so important to be gentle with ourselves and I completely agree!

Get in touch with Natalie:













Natalie Costa is an award winning coach, author and founder of Power Thoughts – a coaching service she created to give children the ‘power’ over their own thoughts!

With a background in psychology and having spent 12 years within the educational sector as well as becoming an accredited Performance Coach, Power Thoughts was born – which blends her past experience and deep understanding of children and their needs, now providing them with the tools to help them cope and thrive in the modern world.

Supporting children from as young as five, Natalie has delivered Power Thoughts to over 6,500 children within schools and online.

Her programs are designed to help children recognise that they don’t have to respond to every thought that they think, or react to everything that they feel. By doing this they are able to grow in confidence, feel happier and be more robust in dealing with the pressures of school, exams, transitioning, making friends etc.

Natalie has been featured in the national press and TV, such as Stella Magazine, The Telegraph, Metro, Glamour Magazine, Good Morning Britain and BBC Breakfast. She is also the co-author of ‘Find Your Power!’  and ‘Stretch Your Confidence!’ – two activity books for children that support their mental wellbeing.



Le’Nise: Welcome to the show. Let’s start off by getting in to the story of your first period. Can you tell us what happened? 

Natalie: Oh, yes. So I think I was about twelve. No, I was 13. I was 13. And it was round round about my birthday. I remember it was winter, because I come from South Africa. So it was June is my birthday. And it’s it’s cold. It’s winter. And I remember going to my parents loo, and I came out and I was like, I knew what was happening. Like, I’ve been told about periods and stuff. But I remember feeling really sad. My mom was really happy, but I just felt really I think for the first time that that feeling of, you know, what’s happening in my body, I don’t have control of what’s happening. And I’ll be honest, I also I was a little bit grossed out. It’s sort of a harsh word But I wasn’t, I definitely wasn’t embracing it. It was definitely a shock and not a pleasant shock as well. 

It’s not something that I wanted to happen, whether that was I still wanted to be a little girl or I didn’t know I wasn’t ready for the next phase of what was going to come. But I remember it was more shock. But as in a negative way, definitely that feeling of oh, no, what is this? So, yeah, it wasn’t a positive experience for me.

Le’Nise: How long did it take you to get over that initial shock? And did did it change into a positive at any point?

Natalie: I think. 

Yeah, I mean, it slowly, I think I slowly started to become like more accepting of it. But I mean, I, I absolutely hated wearing pads and I felt like I was wearing a nappy. And I used to play hockey and things like that. So I really it was just really it was uncomfortable. It wasn’t something that I looked forward to. And I just found it really messy. So it wasn’t, I don’t think it was a very positive experience early on in my life. I mean, it became one of those things that it was just another thing that happened. And I was quite fortunate not to really struggle with any sort of period pains or things like that. I’d often joke with my friends saying, you know, I never know. It just comes. So it is never like any PMS signs or things that you read about in magazines. Like, I just it just it would just be that I’d be like, oh, shit, here it is. I would say I wasn’t a very positive like relationship with that. And I think as well, just growing up. And obviously my mom always would educate us and you know, she’d be available to talk to. So we were able to talk to her about these things. But it was also something that wasn’t spoken about. If that makes sense. It wasn’t necessarily coming from her. I just think with society in general, just you just don’t talk about your periods and things like that. And it’s it’s something that you should. That’s quite gross. And you shouldn’t know nothing. You shouldn’t have them because I happened like, that’s just what happens. But it’s almost like that was the feeling that I had around it. So not very positive.

Le’Nise: Growing up in South Africa, why don’t you think that these things were spoken about?

Natalie: I think it’s very conservative in nature. Very traditional, very. Yeah, I mean, I did grow up in a bit of a conservative home as well, so you just don’t talk about that, just like you don’t really, you know, in general talk about sex and things like that. And I remember I went to this lady, this sounds really weird, but a group of, me and a group of friends. We went to this, because back then as well, schools didn’t offer sex education or talking about things, I mean, was very, very conservative. And sex was almost like a bad word, do you know what I mean. And we went to this lady. Probably when I was in about standard five. That’s the end of primary school years. And I think what’s that’s, year 7 here. And she, that was like my first introduction to what happens in your body and sex and periods and things like that. It was just it’s just really bizarre in terms of I think that the whole mindset of obviously parents, you know? Well, definitely my parents and friends of my you know, my parents, my friend’s parents as well, just don’t talk about this. Kind of outsourced it to somebody else to tell us about. So it’s just not something that I think and I think even if I had to speak to my mom now, it’s not something that she would have spoken about, really. I can’t imagine speaking openly about it. So something that happens and this is how we deal with it and we move on.

Le’Nise: Do you think your views have changed? Do you feel like you’re, I mean, you’re on the show today talking about it. So let me change the question. What made you more open to talking about periods and menstruation?

Natalie: I think it’s just kind of the change. Various factors, it was the change of times. Like we’re a lot more open in terms of what we speak about. It’s a normal part of being a woman. Why would we have to shun it or try and hide it? I think as well as a former teacher as well and also working with young girls and sometimes in year six, girls having their first period. And, you know, it’s all of those like those feelings that come up. And I think it’s it’s definitely it’s still a journey for myself. So obviously, I’m a lot more open to it. And this is just who I am and it’s what my body does. So I think it’s it’s and it’s also obviously educating myself like the books I read magazines and just what you see in the media. And I suppose what I choose to follow and consume and my social media is very much pro and supportive and open and, you know, being able to embrace all of these areas. So for me, if I look at my media, social media feed, it’s kind of like that’s my world, do you know what I mean. So it doesn’t make the conversation taboo. And I think it’s just why aren’t we talking about this? You know, why is it not just a normal thing? It’s not gross. It’s not disgusting. It can be painful, but it’s it’s part of who we are. You know, I mean, it fascinates me. I’m not very I’m not as informed as what I’d like to be.

But I do have a friend who is very much in tune with her cycle. And I think even becoming self-employed really highlights to me how my cycle impacts my day to day work and what I do. Putting with that though, still unlearning a lot of habits, moving from the teaching world and the push, push, push and the grind, grind, grind and all of that. But I’m aware as well that there are certain times in the months when, OK, this is probably when you’re feeling like this is not this has got to do a lot more with what’s going on inside of you versus what’s going on outside of you. So just even having has power and I think being able to educate people now about that and young girls about that, golly, if I had this at school when I was in primary school, even, you know, just even it is a simple format. I just think it would change so much in terms of how people move forward. Men and women, you know, which is just as knowledge and knowledge is empowerment, you know?

Le’Nise: I just want to go back to what you said about being self-employed and working around your menstrual cycle. Can you give us a few or an example of how you’ve been able to put that into practise? I know you said it’s a work in progress, but in terms of what you’ve started doing, can you talk us still just a little bit about that? 

Natalie: I think the main thing at the moment, and I’m definitely not as good as my friend because she is brilliant in terms that she would not all the time, but she would track where she books in talks and speaking gigs versus when she doesn’t. And I’m not like that because I’m like, cool, they won’t be added to it. But I think the main thing for me at the moment is, like I said, it’s a work in progress, is becoming aware of mindsets. And for me, in the onset, too. When my when my period’s about to start, I know I am hypersensitive. The negative thoughts are increasingly a lot more, more so than what they would normally be. The anxiety, the feelings of anxiety are higher. And even I guess it comes up with me when I do my workouts because I love exercise. I love fitness and not pushing myself. But probably the most it’s it’s not being giving myself such a hard time if I can’t do what I’ve intended to set out to do, because actually I realised, okay, this is my body and listening to my body. So then perhaps having days where it’s low impact exercises versus repetitive high impact kind of things or just going for a slow run is probably a large part at the moment of how I see myself adapting to that.

But I would love to get to the point of being able to book my work around it because I think it would be phenomenal.

Le’Nise: I have to say, even though that this is this is the work that I do, I haven’t got to that point either, because I just you know, when the work comes, you know, you need to do the work. But, you know, it’s definitely a work, a work in progress and once you’re able to do it. But the fact that you’re able to think about your cycle when you exercise, I think is really, really important. I was actually speaking to an athlete today and she was we were talking about menstrual cycles and I was talking about how, the importance for athletes and anyone who does like a lot of exercise to think about their menstrual cycle, because there are times in your cycle, like the first half, where you put on, you’re more likely to put on muscle because of the rising oestrogen and testosterone. But you have more energy towards for those things. Whereas in the second half of your cycle where you have the rising oestrogen and progesterone, that’s actually the time for cardiovascular exercise. And you’re more likely to make cardiovascular gains then. 

Natalie: Yeah, really, it makes sense, though, because if I think about the times, I really want to go for a run. Internally, I’m like, I cannot face doing high reps, high HIIT workouts. It’s like I just want something that’s to move my body but in a slow and steady space. So it’s not even like sprints to things like that. It’s just a slow, steady run or low impact where perhaps, you know, maybe like I think when the gym are open, I can maybe incorporate more of a leg day, but with no jumps and just kind of keep it really low base, you know, low flow, intensity based. And I think that to me has been a big thing because I don’t know. I mean, ever since my teens, it’s always been I had a lot of like there’s a lot of work in terms of me and my relationship with my body. I mean, I had a lot of other girls and men as well. So it’s been a real thing for me to unlearn. That I don’t have to be killing it in every single workout in order to have some positive benefits from that, you know, and that’s a really long journey because for a very long time that was like. Right. I was like maxing out and do as many and, you know, you know, now it’s more constructive. Yeah. So I just wanted to say, I mean, like what you were saying about your work in progress. That’s what I think the main thing is, just it is having that awareness. I think ideally I’d love to be able to book in speaking gigs and like the world goes according to my cycle. You know, I don’t see that that’s that’s available because, like, the work comes in, but it’s in. Okay. How do I show up knowing that maybe it’s day one or all I really want to do is be in bed. So what can I do to be gentle with myself? You know, following what I have to do, I have to perform. Right. Okay. Understanding. And then, you know, what can I do to be gentle with myself versus beating myself up? 

Le’Nise: That is such an amazing point. I think that cycle awareness is so is such an important part of understanding how you can be gentle with yourself. And also this idea of tenderness, knowing that you’re on day one. And so, you know, it varies for everyone. But, you know, you might. Your energy is likely to be lower than it is, say, and day midway through your cycle. So no matter what you have what you have to do. How can you show for yourself in the gentlest, most tender way possible?

Natalie: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Which still it’s still a work in progress. 

So it’s quite funny because even today I got a little I got that I think it’s the Moody app and I’m still learning to figure out how it works, but I just haven’t gone into it yet. But a little notification came up, say it’s a good time to remember to be sensitive and gentle with yourself today and I’m like, oh, this makes sense because this morning everything was in full flow in my bride, I got like, all right. It’s it’s just it’s just having that as an awareness, you know? 

Le’Nise: I love the Moody app. The team there is amazing. So it’s brilliant that you’re using it.

But I think just going back to what you were saying about how before your period you get these heightened thoughts, you know, anxious thoughts or self-doubt. Do you feel, are you more aware now that they’re that those things are happening? And the second part of the question is, what do you do to to help yourself in those moments?

Natalie: Yeah, I do. I definitely notice I’m more aware that it’s happening. So while it doesn’t stop the negative chatter or those feelings coming up and like, I know why this is happening because I’m coming closer.

So that’s like my hormones, that’s PMS and also that I get really, actually the older I’ve gotten, the tearier I get as well. Definitely the more emotional I get. I mean, in terms what helps me. Well, it’s always I’ve always struggled with anxiety as a child and I think into adulthood as well. But it’s been it’s been quite manageable. But it is there. Do you know I mean, I was I was diagnosed with depression in my early teens and into my 20s, but I’ve definitely been able to manage it and to work with it. But in those times especially, I’ve noticed as I’ve become older, because when I was younger, I didn’t really notice so much of the change between not being on my period and being on my period. It just kind of flowed into one. It was definitely more gradual, whereas now it’s like night and bloody day. It’s like, who is this person? But it always comes back to doing those things that I know will keep me grounded. So that is about not looking at my phone first thing in the morning, doing some meditation or mindfulness exercises where I just get to like sit and centre my mind and it’s kind of quieten things down. Exercise in the morning is really important as well. I find that if I don’t exercise, whether that is even yoga or just anything in terms of moving my body, the mental chatter, those feelings are definitely a lot more heightened. And I’ve gotten into such a routine. I’ve been doing it for years in the mornings. So I know that that always sets me up to be clearer headed. Even if I wake up and I in this fog, if I do the exercise, I’m like, oh, well. Right. What was that about? Like, literally, it’s like a night and day again in terms of how it helps. And I think so that’s what I do. And then I try to do it as consistently as possible. I must be honest, since lockdown, it’s been a lot harder for me to have that. Because my husband’s at home. So there’s just more distraction in terms of because before, you know, we’d get up, go to the gym together. There’d be more structure. Whereas now we’re sleeping a bit later and all of these sort of things. So I’ve definitely noticed a bit of a dip. But in saying that, when I come back to the meditations and even if I do them a bit later, I find that that really, really does help. And then even using some other strategies in terms of, what is it that I’m thinking, what are all these negative thoughts, let’s put them down. And what I teach the children, let’s look for evidence as to why these are not true. Let’s look for clues as to why this thought, you’re thinking, no one’s going to buy your programme is not true. Do you know all this stuff you’ve come up with? But yeah, I think it yeah, definitely. The meditation, exercise, movements and then challenging that negative chatter and talking back in a more compassionate way, in a more rational way as well.

Le’Nise: So it sounds like you’ve got a lot of tools in your arsenal and you’re very you’re very aware. I want to just go back to what you were saying about sport and you played a lot of sport when you were younger. And you’re very, you do a lot of physical activity now. You’ve talked about we talked a little bit about how your menstrual cycle might impact your performance. Did you notice when you were younger the impact of sport on your period, on your menstrual cycle?

Natalie: No, no, no. I think like I said, to me, my period was very light. It was also maybe three days or four days. It was very, very light. And I never really noticed this PMS that people were talking about. It’s like, I don’t have that.

I brag about that. That’s cool.

 But I think no. And I think, you know, the sport. So I played hockey in high school and I did some running, cross-country and things like that and tennis, but never excessively. I think when I started going to the gym in my 20s, that’s when I started to get quite punishing. Even, I think might be the thing of high impact. Then I qualified to be a fitness instructor, so I taught alongsidea couple of the Virgin Actives and Gymbox and again the ethos and those, you know, it’s very much. Go, go, go. Push, push, push. Which I love. But it’s not something that is sustainable. But I think it was more so it didn’t have an impact on my periods. It was more my mental, ow my mental health in terms of beating myself up because I’m like I’m exhausted and I’m tired and why I’ve done like 10 burpees and that’s it or whatever it might be at that stage, you know, like I’ve just started and you’re dead and not recognising and being in tune and actually listen to your body. And it’s funny, I had a conversation with a friend at the gym once, she was telling me that she was not pushing herself. And then when I asked her where she was in her cycle, I was like, well, that’s why. And it was an eye opener for her as well. You know, we don’t get talked about this if you’re not actively looking for this material.

Le’Nise: Yeah, we don’t get taught about this stuff, and it’s it’s so valuable and so many different ways.

And I think this narrative that I’ve been seeing at the moment is there’s a lot of conversation about the importance of periods. But some people questioning why we need to have a period in the first place. And, you know, it’s it’s hard to kind of have a counterpoint to those conversations because they know that they’re coming from a very masculine mindset of the world in terms of masculine energy and that go, go, go that you described. Whereas we see that menstruation, that cycle is, so it’s a cycle and there are ebbs and flows. But I wanted to just kind of switch gears a little bit and talk a little bit about your you your work as a teacher and the work that how you transitioned into your company, because you’ve mentioned some of the tools that you use around for the anxious thoughts that you have and how you’ve been able to teach children these tools. Talk a little bit about that.

Le’Nise: Mm hmm. So, yeah, I qualified as a teacher. Primary school teacher back in South Africa also got a background in psychology. So I really wanted to go into this field of psychology. So after my teaching degree is four years. And then I thought, well, I’ll come over to the UK. Because that’s what all South Africans were doing back then, which is golly, 2006, I think. But then I ended up staying here and I loved it. So I don’t want to go back. And then I also realised actually I love the mind. 

I love personal development, but I don’t quite know if I want to go into psychology as such. Like I initially thought, but I knew I didn’t want to be a teacher. So I was teaching and I just it just it just didn’t gel. It just wasn’t. I knew, like, inside there’s like there’s something else. And I’m like, well, what the hell is this? Like you would I tried all different things. I mean, like I said, I then dabbled a bit in the fitness industry, cos I loved it. So I trained to be an instructor and I taught like fight club and spin and body pump and all sorts of things. But again, it wasn’t something I could see myself doing long term. And then the school I was with set me on a coaching course thinking initially it was P.E. coaching, physical education. But when I got the documents, it was a taster to become a life coach with some company. And I loved it. And life coach back then, was very woo woo like what is, you know, very kind of like, what is this? But I absolutely loved it. It covered the field of psychology and personal development. But it was about helping people move forward. And so I was actually in the middle of thinking at that point do I, cos I was exploring becoming a personal trainer. But then the coaching qualification came up and was like, I’m actually gonna do that. So I signed up with The Coaching Academy and I did that. And then I thought, well, I mean, I was still teaching full time, obviously. And I thought, well, let me work with women making career changes like myself. So I tried that out for a couple of years on the side. But again, it just didn’t gel. And people used to tell me, why don’t you use your tools for children. But at that point I was like, no, I want to leave education? I’m so tired of this. I want to leave school. And it was only purely by fluke where I had to I was required to teach an after school club. And I thought, well, I’ll call it mindfulness because I’ve been on a mindfulness training session, but I’m going to get the kids to colour. So I can mark books. That was honestly my strategy and I did it for maybe about two sessions. But then one of the children said to me that they were really stressed about their year six exams coming up. And I’d actually come off a stress training day that I absolutely love. So, I mean, on the spot there I was teaching them about their brain and what happens when you get stressed, much like, are they going to get this? And the feedback I got from parents was following that session was like, whatever you’re doing, please carry on. My daughter’s coming home saying, like, she’s using these tools to help with her worries. What is this? Can you carry on with it? So then I slowly started to try different strategies, like basically apply my coaching tools into lessons for children. And that ultimately was when I guess how I thought the idea for Power Thoughts came. So Power Thoughts is a coaching programme that I or coaching service that I created to help children initially tap into the power of their thoughts and to help them recognise that they don’t have to believe every thought they think or respond to everything they feel. And ultimately giving them the tools to manage their mindset.

So I know we were close with a very dear friend, Lucy Sheridan, because Lucy’s always been on my radar. We’ve been friends and I knew she was doing this mentoring at the stage and I said to her I have got this idea to bring personal development to children. But I need help. And that’s really, where we started to put ideas together and, you know, the name came about. So, I mean, it’s been quite a journey and it really is. And it’s so funny because I remember years ago prior to this, I used to say I love teaching, but I want to teach what I’m passionate about and I’m doing it, like it’s so, I’ve got goosebumps. I never would have believed that I would be doing what I’m doing. But for me, it’s really important. I think, you know, as an adult, I know how I struggle with negative thoughts and feelings of anxiety. And I know not everybody does. But we all have self doubts. We all have those times when we question our abilities. We all have those impostors that creep up or we don’t feel confident. But we create all these negative stories about that. And these are stories that we’ve held on to for years, whereas if we could start to teach children from the age of six, seven, eight, that just because you’re not getting maths or it’s difficult in maths doesn’t mean you’re rubbish with numbers, doesn’t mean you’re stupid. You know, you can start to rewrite that story. So it’s all about bringing the tools that we practically use with adults, but making them into bite sized teachable activities for children, Just to start developing positive habits, as I say, you know, from a younger age, or more helpful thinking habits, really. And how to respond to things just being more emotionally aware, because I don’t think I was taught about emotions the way I know about it now. And I know how vital it would have been if I was. 

Le’Nise: Do you feel like kids are more anxious these days? And you’re having to really dig into that a bit more rather than the kind of positive reinforcement side of what you do?

Natalie: Mm hmm. I think. Well, I. I mean, obviously with COVID and all of that. Yes. There’s been a high like a spike in anxiety. This there’s been a lot of because of all the uncertainty, of course. But I mean, prior to that, I do think. 

There is a lot already on children’s plates now versus when I was a child, even when I was teaching. When I first started teaching, you know, the curriculum has changed. It’s definitely I mean, I’ve been out of teaching now for three and a half, four years. But back then, like the curriculum, it changed a lot and it was more challenging. So I think their plates are a lot more full and also bring in online and social media. And it’s not something that we can choose our children not to be engaged in because actually they need to learn. That’s part of the modern world. And we want to give them the skills to deal with that in a positive way so their plates are full. So I think, yes, to a degree there is. But then also the flip side, I think we’re talking about it a lot more now, whereas in the past it was probably also there, we just didn’t talk about it just like we didn’t talk about periods, we didn’t talk about mental health. We didn’t talk about our feelings, we were told to just like, suck it up and get on with it. You know, like just just let’s not show it was not the right thing to show mental, you know, like mental challenges or things like that. So I think it’s a bit of both now and especially I find I mean, just within the world of education, I set up Power Thoughts when mindfulness was just starting to make its appearance in education. But I know it was some schools embraced it and some schools were completely no, we don’t want to go down this route because they might be religious schools. And this is going to attached into all sorts of other beliefs. So it was definitely, I think. I can sometimes find it was a bit slower to be introduced versus say, I know mindfulness was raiding the corporate sector. It was quite well embraced. So I think. Sorry. Going back to your question, I think it’s a bit of both really. Their plates are full. But I think we’re talking about it more. We’re allowing the space to talk about it.

Le’Nise: If there were parents listening, who would say I I love I love this. What’s something I could do today, too. Because, you know, more parents, including myself, are homeschooling. And they’re seeing kind of the kitchen sink of what it’s like to to teach a child. You know warts and all. I have to say here, there have been tantrums from me and from my son. What advice would you give to parents who know there are a lot of kids who aren’t going to go back to school this year to manage this time and to, you know, keep keep a cool head.

Natalie: Yeah, definitely. I think, first of all and it goes back to what I said ages ago, in another interview. This is not home schooling. Right. Home schooling is where you choose to take a child out of the system and you choose to be their primary. I mean, you already own a primary education, but you choose to step into that teacher role. You’ve not chosen this. This is kind of being thrown at you in a matter of like 48 hours. Right? You’ve just got to deal with it. So understand that it’s not you’re not being the teacher. You’re not expected to know how to do the divisions the fractions, adverbial whatever frontal verbs, whatever they’re called, you know, remove that. I mean, by now as I’m talking to parents, there does seem to be a bit of a structure in place because I do think, you know, structure is important. Absolutely. For children, especially let children know what’s to be expected. So but keep it keep it quite simple. I think the key word here is keep it simple. If schools and again, this depends on the age of the child, the subject, what schools are sending, if schools are sending a lot of things and you’re feeling overwhelmed, pick one thing, pick one thing and focus on that. Rather do one thing well versus ten little things. And they’re all emotional meltdowns.

At the end of the day, we’ve always got to come back to our children feeling and us lowering that stress response right where we are. Because if we’re in that space of stress and anxiety and anger and those big feelings, nothing’s going to get done. And it’s not a very nice place to be. So if your child is, and it’s not about this, that’s a lot of things here because, yes, some learning needs to be done. But could there be other forms of learning then if they’re really not engaging with the maths, could they perhaps go? And I don’t know, sort blocks. So by, you know, buy groceries and putting that inverted commas, you know? So what would you buy? How much would it be? What money? Kind of those sort of things. Somethings that give it more practical and hands-on versus the worksheets or the exercise that they do. The other thing is, well, I mean, just to remind parents is what is that children at school for six hours a day, but they are not learning every single minute of those six hours. And even if they’ve got an hour of literacy at an hour of maths, they’re not working that full 60 minutes because there is a bit of teaching time, there is a bit of carpet time, to desk time, there’s they can go to the toilet time. There’s a lot times that we’re not doing anything, you know. And there’s the banter with the friend. So if you’re able to do a little maths exercise in 15 minutes, 20 minutes, and then they do something that’s a bit more self focussed, that’s fine. They don’t have to be busy for the full 60 minutes. I mean, I do see this with a little client that I worked with recently. His school was quite on top form in terms of Zoom lessons, and I think he was at like Zoom calls from nine o’clock until two o’clock every day. And I mean, he’s eight. But I think children are, I mean, what I’m hearing from children and I think especially now understanding if they’re having a hard time, are there some things that you can take off the agenda? Because the kids I’m talking to are bored with Zoom lessons, the hour sessions and that that looks they say the learning is I mean, but the learning is boring, which you can totally understand because your attention span is only so much for an hour or an especially if it’s the subject. So it’s not quite it’s not something that’s always going to be fun and engaging. It’s maths. So it’s how to write a sentence. So, I mean, obviously a lot more elaborate than that. But, you know, I mean, it it’s there’s only so much I think the novelty of being at home is also worn off. In the beginning, it might have been quite exciting. They are missing their friends, you know, FaceTime can only go so far. And also the school day, they burn off a lot of energy.

So what I would say is, how can you help your child change their state and you as well. So simple things like, I know encourage families to create a power playlist where they put together some songs. And if they start to feel, songs that they like, like upbeat, funky songs, and if they start to feel like in a bit of a funk. Right. We gonna choose a song. We’re gonna dance, we’re gonna shake and gonna move it out to get rid of that energy, you know.

Something else that I teach is move it to lose it, where I move my body in a safe way to lose the big feeling. So it might be that I set my timer on my phone. You’ve got to run as fast as you can for 30 seconds and then we got to go again for 45 seconds and then we gotta go again for 60 seconds, by round four children have been like, oh, what was I so upset about? You know, because it’s it’s the game. And even, you know, if you’re able to take them outside, like burn some of the energy because they’re not burning that much energy. And just in terms of something else as well, that might be something helpful in terms of ongoing is we can start now to help them build their emotional vocabulary, because the richer their emotional vocabulary is, the better they will be able to to express how they feel and recognise how they feel. And I can’t remember where I read it. But I read, you know, first of all, that I read somewhere that, you know, if we’re able to label our feeling, it reduces the intensity of the feeling within the primitive part of the brain, but also children and adults who are able to verbalise how they felt were 40 percent less physically and verbally aggressive than those who had a difficult time, you know, figuring things out. So this is something that’s ongoing, but something that families could do is even print off a feelings chart. Just Google feelings chart and Google print that off and just put that up in the kitchen or communal area and just have, like, little conversation about, you know, when did you where do you went to see? What does jealousy feel like? Where do you notice jealousy your body? If you had to give it a colour, what colour would you give it? You know what might help you if you feel jealous, you know, versus if you feel frustrated or if you feel worried or if you feel disappointed. And obviously the happier emotions as well. But just to start building their emotional vocabulary, because so often children say, I feel happy, sad or mad, but actually there’s a whole wealth of other feelings and even getting the older ones. I do this with some children when I get them to take joy, for example, come up with as many words for joy as you can, you know, and then let’s put them on like a timeline and see lowest intensity to highest intensity. What might it and it’s just it’s just a way to start slowly building that vocabulary as well, because then the more words they have to express how they feel about things and vice versa with you as well. 

Le’Nise: You have given us so many incredible tools. I’m just nodding my head, thinking I got to use this. I’ve got to use that. Just just wonderful. Like the power playlist. Like yesterday, my son really loves The Descendants. And so we we were we had a little karaoke session in the afternoon, and that was really fun. And it was a way of us getting out our energy and like, really just, you know, because singing is so joyful. And also it stimulates the vagus nerve. So that is also connected to good emotional health. So I just I just love I just all love all of that. And for the listeners, all of these, if you’re if you’ve written, trying to write these down, all of this will be in the show notes and the transcription on my website. But, Natalie, I wanted to ask you if you could leave listeners with one thought to take away today from this podcast. What would you want that to be? 

Natalie: And the first thing that came to my mind is don’t believe every thought you think. Especially when it comes to the negative chatter, the self-doubt. And this goes, I think, something we can pass on to our children as well, especially when in terms of the uncertainty and the worry and the anxiety, it is so easy to get caught up in the future tripping and worrying about what might happen. But let’s come back to where we are right now in this moment, whether that is with breathing techniques or changing energy states. And I think as well, coupled with that, you know, being gentle with ourselves and this is something I said that I’m still learning. 

I was having a massive talk with myself upstairs just before I came on. You’ve got to be your own cheerleader. So I know the home schooling, when you come home is incredibly difficult for some parents and children. 

But, you know, at the end of the day, can you. It is a one positive thing that’s come out of the day and again, also just the permission slip to drop all of these things that we feel we should do. Primarily, I think what’s important is you being able to pay the bills, so your job and then the children and you feeling in a happy place. So if that means the schoolwork doesn’t get done the way it would be done. That’s okay. So I think I’ve given you two there not one.

Le’Nise: No, I both are brilliant.

Bothare really important. Where can listeners get in touch with you to find out more about the work that you do and how you help children?

Natalie: Yes, sure. 

 So when my website www.powerthoughts.co.uk. I’m on Instagram a lot. I’m on Instagram the most and Facebook as well. Yes. And if you go to my website, you can pop me a message on there or you can come into my DMs as well.

Le’Nise: Brilliant.

And all of this this will be in the show notes and the transcript. Thank you so much for coming onto the show, Natalie. It’s been it’s been brilliant. I’ll definitely be using the things that you mentioned. 

Natalie: Oh, thank you so much for having me. It’s been so lovely to chat with you. Thank you.

Period Story Podcast, Episode 25: Jasmin Thomas, Have Confidence In Your Voice

On today’s episode of Period Story podcast, I’m so happy to share my conversation with Jasmin Thomas, the founder of Ohana CBD

Jasmin and I had a wide ranging conversation, including discussing her multiple sclerosis diagnosis, Rastafarianism, medicinal cannabis, Jasmin’s decision to start Ohana CBD, being Black and female in the cannabis industry and of course, the story of her first period. 

Jasmin says she felt quite isolated and uncomfortable when she got her first period. She says that as she was growing up her period was okay and that as she got older, she started to tune into her body more, understand her menstrual cycles, track her menstrual cycles. 

Jasmin shares her story of coming off the pill. She says she didn’t feel as though she felt real emotions whilst on it and when she came off the pill, she started to feel everything a lot more.

Listen to hear about Jasmin talk about multiple sclerosis and the symptoms that led her to seek out a diagnosis, the support networks she leant on and how she explored natural medicinal options to manage the condition.

We talk about Jasmin’s family links to Rastafarianism and medical cannabis and how this led to the birth of her company, Ohana CBD. She said that she had a desire to live her most authentic life and starting her own company was a part of this.

We talk about Jasmin being a Black female in the cannabis industry and what Jasmin has done to hold others in the industry accountable. 

Jasmin says that we should have confidence in our voices and live as our most authentic selves and I completely agree! 

Get in touch with Jasmin:







Jasmin Thomas is the founder of Ohana CBD, a vegan, functional and CBD-infused skincare company. Ohana products are 100% natural and contain unique formulations that combine powerful plant properties that serve the skin, from seed to self.

Jasmin was diagnosed with MS in 2015.  She started using cannabis to alleviate various frustrating symptoms of her condition. Her medical journey led to her professional one, which now allows her to pursue her passions.

In 2018, Jasmin co-founded entOURage Network, a women’s empowerment organisation that cultivates a platform for people to engage and explore Europe’s legal cannabis market. 










Le’Nise [00:00:00] On today’s episode, we have Jasmin Thomas. Jasmin is the founder of Ohana CBD, a vegan functional and CBD infused skin care company. Ohana products are 100 percent natural and contain unique formulations that combine powerful plant properties that serve the skin from seed to self. Jasmin was diagnosed with MS, multiple sclerosis, in 2015. She started using cannabis to alleviate various frustrating symptoms of her condition. Her medical journey led her led to her professional one, which now allows her to appreciate her passions. In 2018, Jasmin co-founded Entourage Network, a women’s empowerment organisation that cultivates a platform for people to engage and explore Europe’s legal cannabis market. Welcome to the show. 

Jasmin [00:00:48] Thank you so much for having me. 

Le’Nise [00:00:50] Let’s get into it. So tell me the story of your very first period. 

Jasmin [00:00:55] So I remember actually very, very well. I was 16. I was actually 16 and a half. It was August. And I was in Newquay in Cornwall. And I was at a post GCSE trip as my first trip away from my parents with my friends. And we were about two or three days into the trip. 

[00:01:19] And I was saying at this hospital with all my girlfriends and I, that’s when I first came on my period. And I remember I didn’t. I was like, oh, what am I going to use, I didn’t have anything with me? And then all of my friends had, like, you know, had started their period, like years before. Some of them had started them when they were 10, 11, others when they were 13. So I was really the last one to the party and they handed me a tampon and I did not feel comfortable using it at all. 

[00:01:52] Like nothing had been up there before. So I didn’t really feel comfortable using it. I was like, oh, crap. And I felt quite isolated. I was like, they didn’t understand why I didn’t use a tampon. And then I had to kind of like, you know, go to the shop and get pads. And I just felt really uncomfortable. And where we were staying in this hostel, it wasn’t really that great. We were. It was a 16 year old’s budget. So I actually just got the train home because I just remember I went to see my mom and I wanted my mom so, like, navigate and it’s time for me. 

Le’Nise [00:02:24] So you were 16 and you said that your friends had gotten their periods much earlier, so one as early as 10. What did you feel in the lead up to your period arriving? Which. Did you have a sense that it was about to come or. And were you. What did you know? What was what was it going to happen in terms of what a period actually was? 

Jasmin [00:02:47] So I knew a period was and I knew some of my friends had started it theirs. And I remember actually when I was much younger, my best ever friends since I was seven years of age when we were about nine, her mom bought us these matching books because we liked everything to be matching our clothes, our books, absolutely everything. She brought us matching books, called Hairs In Funny Places which describe developing breasts, developing your period. So my family is very open. So I was always very aware that I was going to get my period what it was. For some reason, because I just didn’t get it and I didn’t get it to like I don’t know what compared to my peers was quite late. I just didn’t think about it. So I was quite shocked when it happened. Even though I had been in situations before where I could actually also remember now that my cousin came on her period for the first time when we were staying at my dad’s house. 

[00:03:50] But even then, I remember my dad not really knowing  what to do and calling my mom like, you need to come and help me. Like, you know, our niece has just started her period. I didn’t feel any sense of like particular symptoms or anything like that leading up to that date in August when I was just over 16, that first started. 

Le’Nise [00:04:11] So you got your train home because you wanted to be with your mom? Totally understandable. And when you got home, what did your mom say? 

Jasmin [00:04:22] I don’t actually remember that part in a lot detail, to be honest. I remember she was just like she was quite encouraging of me to stay. And she was that, you know, you’ll be okay. Fine. But, I mean, I never really liked. I’ve always been quite a homebody anyway and kind of like being close to my mom. So I was like, this didn’t feel comfortable. But I remember she always wanted me to use pads. She wasn’t really comfortable with me using tampons. And then I didn’t until I did. I didn’t. And I didn’t actually start using tampons until after I had had sex. 

Le’Nise [00:05:03] And did that make a difference? 

Jasmin [00:05:06] It just made me feel more comfortable with inserting something inside me. I think that’s kind of like where my logic was coming from. At the time. But yeah, from then for the next 10 years, I then use tampons like for every period. I never used another sanitary towel. 

Le’Nise [00:05:27] And what was your relationship like with your period after you talked about the transition from pads to tampons? What about the experience of the period? 

Jasmin [00:05:38] So my period when I was younger was always really it was an okay experience. I’ve never really had like a very heavy flow. So things like leaking through my clothes and stuff like that. That’s never happened to me. I’ve always like as, especially as I’ve got older. I’ve got a lot more in tune with my body, so I know exactly when it’s going to come so I didn’t get caught short. But yeah, it was kind of okay, I didn’t really until I was twenty six is when I really started to tune into my body, understand my cycles, start tracking my cycles. Kind of like get up into the key science of when my period was. And then also that’s also when I became more conscious about using tampons and what kind of contraception I used and how that could potentially affect my period. My periods did get a bit more heavy. I do actually suffered from quite sometimes quite severe period pains as well. So the first day of my period is always a bit of a nightmare. I’m exhausted and I can’t really do much. But then it only last three or four days thereafter and it’s really light and it’s fine. 

Le’Nise [00:06:50] Talk about why you started tracking your period and what led you what you how you started that process. 

Jasmin [00:06:59] That was mainly because so 26 was maybe a bit too early, I should think. I started that when I was twenty seven. So from the age of maybe 17 to 20 or 25, I was on the pill. And then obviously when I was diagnosed with M.S. at 25, I started looking at my lifestyle very holistically. So I looked I opted for medical cannabis for my choice of drug. I started looking at my skincare routine and eliminating all toxins and potential hormone disruptors from my my everyday routines, my diet and lifestyle. And that really got me thinking of what the pill could potentially be doing to my body and any adverse effects. And I also felt like I just didn’t really feel like real emotions while I was on the pill. I found it very confusing. So I wanted to get very, very in tuned in my body. I didn’t want to take contraception, so I wanted to look in to natural cycling. And that is when I started to track my period and have been doing so ever since. 

Le’Nise [00:08:14] So was it the MS diagnosis that made you come off of with the pill? 

Jasmin [00:08:20] I was already actually off the pill just because I didn’t have a partner at that time, so I came off the pill when I was 24. I didn’t have a partner again until I was 26. So I think that had a contributing factor to exploring natural cycles in a lot more detail. 

Le’Nise [00:08:43] Talk a little bit about that. What happened to you as you as you came off the pill? I’ve always find these stories quite interesting because they can vary so widely. So you you said earlier that early about how you knew didn’t really feel your mood. So talk a little bit about that process. 

[00:09:07] Well, yeah. I just did it. Really. So I don’t really feel like I didn’t feel like I’d felt real emotions. And I had also noticed how it distrupted my feelings about someone or my feelings within a relationship. And also, like not feeling the like the signs of PMS. So I wasn’t really feeling any of these emotions. And once I came off the contraceptive pill, I really started to feel everything a lot more. So it became a lot. I became a lot more in tune with my body because then I would know when I’m gonna come on my period. I would know when I’m ovulating. I was like, I’m really sensitive. So I really I can really feel even when I’m ovulating, like, I know, like just from like those pains in my stomach or the little twinges that I feel. So I think it just really helped me coming to terms with that. And then also just looked at other things I could support myself with state of mind and mood to other natural supplements to to support me through my monthly cycle. 

Le’Nise [00:10:13] It’s quite in. I’m not saying that 24 is young, but to be able to make that decision that you wanted to feel you moods and you wanted to get more in touch with yourself at that age is quite I think was quite astute. I think what my experience of women coming off the pill is typically in their in their early 30s that they start to think differently about that. So I think it’s really interesting that you made that decision when you were so young. 

Jasmin [00:10:46] It was it was heavily influenced. I think, like, I am basically my mother’s twin. I really, really my mom has never been on the contraceptive pill before. She’s either always on natural cycling or used condoms. And we had had these conversations and, you know, she my kind of like holistic approach to life has very much come from her and probably influenced the type of medicine that I have since used since being diagnosed with MS as well, because we grew up with a homeopath. And, you know, my whole entire time is vegetarian slash vegan. Everything’s very plant based. Everything’s very holistic. There is like a lot of use of natural medicine. And I think that has really influenced me since an extremely young age. So I have always been quite conscious about these things and then just implemented them again and they really came to the forefront of my mind once I was diagnosed and had to kind of like evaluate my life and, you know, put strategic things in place and pillars in place to make sure that I was going to continue living my best life with the with the education that I had. Kind of like, you know, that I received from my my family up until that date. 

Le’Nise [00:12:10] Can you talk a little bit about your MS diagnosis? But before you get into that, can you share for listeners who don’t know what MS, multiple sclerosis is, more about what this condition is? 

Jasmin [00:12:25] Yeah, of course. So MS, as you said, is multiple sclerosis. It is a autoimmune disease that affects the brain and spinal cord. And to be more specific, it is the protein that protects the myelin sheath, which is the nerve endings in your brain and spinal cord that it attacks. And I was diagnosed on the first of December 2015 and I first noticed symptoms from the summer of 2015. One of the triggers of symptoms can be heat. And that summer I was in Marrakech in July, and it was like 43 degree heat. 

[00:13:05] It was so hot I literally couldn’t do anything. I remember, like, not even be able to get in the pools and pools so warm. And I was like stuck under a parasol the whole time. And then when I got back, I had lost the hearing in my right ear quite considerably, and I was like, this is so weird. I had also been on like 10 flights that year so far. So I was like, maybe I’ve been flying too much. It’s just affected my ear. 

[00:13:31] But then I kind of also had vertigo and I was having extreme exhaustion every day at four o’clock. But I left it a couple of months and then I was like, I also had vibrations down my spinal cord. And I was like, wow, I’m really working out too hard in the gym cause I could really feel this in my back. And I was like saying my other friends that, you know, after doing loads of sit ups, do you really feel it in your spine? And they’re like, yeah. So you get the tremors and they’re like, yes. I said, okay, cool, this is normal. And then by September, October time, my my hearing hadn’t returned. So I was like okay I should probably go to the doctor’s about this now. And I got referred to the Nose, Ear and Throat Hospital in King’s Cross and they checked out my ear. And was that there’s nothing wrong with your eardrum. Everything’s fine. But you do have quite considerable hearing loss. You know, we can give you a hearing aid, but you should probably just go. It’s obviously something to your brain. So go for a scan. And so they sent me off for an MRI and then it came back that it was most likely going to be MS, which I was quite shocked about, because, again, going off my family history, no one’s had any illnesses. 

[00:14:41] And it’s been kind of like, you know, we haven’t even had anyone in the family with cancer. So we had never I’d never really experienced an illness before or any kind of serious illness in my family. So, yeah, that was quite a shock. And then. Yeah, so kind of that that’s how I found out. I had a saying I’d never experience any serious illness in my family was actually not true. Thinking back about I did actually have quite severe meningitis septicaemia when I was 17, which I think could be a contributing factor as to why I maybe then went on to develop MS because I did have yeah, I did have meningitis when I was 17 and I caught it quite late so it was quite severe. 

Le’Nise [00:15:29] So talk about the support that you you had around you when you got your diagnosis. You said you were shocked. So what what sort of support networks did you lean on? 

Le’Nise [00:15:42] So my family were really, really supportive and they still are still to this day. I then went to therapy as well. So I had therapy at the time to deal with that. But if I’m being really honest, the initial shock didn’t really last that long. And then I mean, I remember actually sitting in the room with my mom and the doctor telling us, the neurologist telling us my mom was crying and I just didn’t really cry. And I kind of just thought, like, you know, I’ve kind of always been a things happen for a reason type of person. No point in crying over spilt milk, though. I’m quite optimistic. So I’m like, okay, that’s fine. Like, there is a way to go over there and never really had. 

[00:16:33] Yeah, I was I never reached out like depressed or hard done by by it. I kind of just the yeah, I think the natural reaction in within me was I okay like, let’s go on with this now. How am I going to fix it? How am I going to manage it and how am I  just going to make sure that this doesn’t stop me in achieving any of my goals in life. 

Le’Nise [00:16:54] Wow. So you had you had quite a go getting attitude to then moving forward with it with MS? 

Jasmin [00:17:03] Yeah, definitely. I almost immediately knew that I didn’t want to accept any of the disease modifying drugs just because some of them didn’t really align with my personal beliefs. And, you know, I’d grown up a vegetarian my whole life. I was already vegan by then as well. And a lot of the lot of the medicines were based around animal fats. I didn’t necessarily feel comfortable putting in my body at the time. The other drug options were like things like chemotherapy. I was only 25. I want to have kids one day. So there were a lot of kind of like factors around it. And then some of them give you a 30 percent chance of then living with a thyroid issue for the rest of your life, which you have to take more medicine for. 

[00:17:47] So my rationale and thinking at that time and kind of like I think because of my, because my family influence always has been, there’s a natural alternative way to get on with it. So that’s when I really started exploring natural medicines. My granddad is a Rasta from the Caribbean. So he had been using cannabis for the whole of my life, as had other people in my family. So something that was very open and discussed and talked about. So I was already aware that cannabis was seen as a potential medicine. Also, weirdly enough, on the 2nd of December, the day after I was diagnosed, I started a new job in a business development role. And the first client that I was handed was a company called GW Pharmaceuticals. And they are the biggest medical exporters of cannabis globally. And the drug, the one drug they had approved at that time was a drug called Sativex. And it was medical cannabis specifically designed for MS patients. 

Le’Nise [00:18:58] Oh, wow. So that’s like literally like the universe. Oh, yeah. Whatever you believe. Sending something right in in your path. That is that is incredible. 

Jasmin [00:19:10] It was super, super weird. And my my boyfriend at the time was also a Rasta who ran a hydroponic shop. So he was very deeply ingrained in the cannabis industry already. My granddad had been teaching us our whole lives about that. And then the day after I started that new job. And that was the first client I was given. So I believe in this. Those signs. Exactly. And, of course, I was definitely happy to follow them. 

Le’Nise [00:19:38] Can you just talk a little bit for listeners who might not be aware of, firstly, what Rastafarians are and the role of cannabis within Rastafarianism? 

Jasmin [00:19:55] Yeah, sure. Rastas don’t really like to be referred to as a religious community. They are a collective of people who believe in God, and they do they follow the Bible. And they believe that cannabis can be used as a sacrament and can basically help bring you to a higher state of meditation. And that could also encourage reasoning, which is a compensation to explore subject matters that you can one day become enlightened on, essentially. 

Le’Nise [00:20:39] Wow, that’s so interesting. 

Jasmin [00:20:41]  Very snapshot. 

Le’Nise [00:20:43] Yeah. Yeah. There’s so many questions I could ask you off the back of that. And so there it started in in Jamaica. Is that right? 

Jasmin [00:20:57] Yes, it did. So it starts in Jamaica there proper. It was started, well, what the Rastas follow is the word of Marcus Garvey and Marcus Garvey said, you look to the you know, you look to Africa for the next rising basically. And he will come in the form of, I think I hope I’m saying this right, I think it is direct lineage of King Solomon. And he will be he will be you know, him and his queen will be seen as equals. And they he will be a he will be a leader that has not been conquered. 

[00:21:39] And that. They see that, as Marcus Garvey was talking about Haile Selassie, who, you know, him and his wife were crowned on the same day, so they were seen as equals. He’s seen as having direct lineage, lineage to I think is King Solomon. I really hope this is right. And then also, they were Ethiopia at that time was a country that was that kind of like fought off the Italians from conquering them. So they saw that as their next leader. And Haile Selassie is the second coming to them and who they follow. 

Le’Nise [00:22:20] That’s so interesting. And in terms of the cannabis element of it, you say you grew up knowing this about cannabis and the background and the importance of cannabis to Rastas. So when you got your MS diagnosis, talk about how you said you started using cannabis to start to alleviate some of your symptoms. 

Jasmin [00:22:47] So it’s quite funny because even I grew up like around and knowing the benefits. I didn’t actually ever use it myself. So it wasn’t really like a recreational cannabis user. So it wasn’t my first experience, but it was still one of my very early experiences. So I started to smoke it. So any time that I got aches and pains, frustrating symptoms, I would smoke it and it would literally relieve my symptoms within like 10 to 15 seconds. It was always, always very quickly. However, cannabis affects everybody differently. And I was not somebody who was a functional stoner. So I would always have to wait until the evening until I was done with work for me to be able to medicate. One of the other ways that I liked consuming it was in food. So I quite liked edibles just because I liked cooking and it was quite different creative way of doing it. And then also sometimes it’s just really easy. So if you don’t always want to smoke, then I could just like eat a chocolate truffle that tastes absolutely delicious and it’s going to have the same effects. Another way that I started using it was in topicals. So obviously, like I said when I was at work, I’m not able to consume and I’m also just not able to like function. So I use topical application and I would bring that to work with me. So if I ever did have, like, sore knees or sore hips or muscles like muscles where like my my symptoms at that time, then I would use a topical application which would again give me a lot of relief and kind of hence where Ohana was birthed from through falling in love with the topical use. After about two years I because I was working in the space and that I had really, really good a good overview to the formulation scientists, the pharmacovigilance team, and really understanding for the first time the actual science behind it and understanding the science behind cannabis, how it interacts with our bodies, how it interacts with our brain, the entourage effect and how it kind of like how it was helping me. I was it like I said, I was a business developer at the time. So I’ve always been quite inquisitive and I really had like a thirst for knowledge. So I started to go to expos and events. I’ve dragged my mom to Prague and Barcelona and Vegas. I don’t think my mom would ever begin to attend these kind of this events with her daughter, to be honest. But it happened. And at one of them, we discovered CBD and I took that. And it had the exact same effect that the cannabis did for me. But it was non psychotropic, which just essentially means that I did not get high from it. It just attaches to different receptors. It affects in different ways. And you don’t get high. So I switched from using full spectrum cannabis to CBD. So I didn’t experience that high feeling, essentially. 

Le’Nise [00:25:50] On a personal level, I love using CBD. I use it when, so I still sometimes get really painful periods. So I use it when my periods are really painful. And the effect is just it’s just amazing. It just you can feel the relief within like for me at it’s like ten minutes and I just I really love it. Talk a little bit about your your company. So Ohana, you told us about your journey from smoking cannabis and using topical cannabis with THC to then where you started Ohana with CBD. What made you go into this direction of deciding to actually build your company for yourself? 

Jasmin [00:26:42] So by this time, I think I’m like two years into medicating with cannabis and using CBD. And I just really loved it. It’s like, you know, sit at my desk in the City and it’s like all I wanted to talk about basically. It was a bit distracting, for everyone from work. And on reflection, I think I only ever got away with it because my family member was the CEO of the company, although I don’t think it would have been really tolerated, to be honest, talking about cannabis all day. And it made me very reflective,of wanting to live my most authentic self and my most, authentic life. And I definitely couldn’t do that in the job that I was doing because essentially I was just working with a lot of pharmaceutical companies, which I didn’t you know, I had questions that you probably shouldn’t have when you’re working so closely with them and they can maybe be seen as antagonistic. And it just didn’t really fit my, my kind of my lifestyle at that time and saying that I always like to disclose, like, you know, I’m a hundred percent not against allopathic medicine. Obviously, when I had meningitis, it absolutely saved my life. It just wasn’t the route that I was ready to take then, but I’m still in full support of it and I absolutely love it. And they are very grateful for the purposes of it and the way it serves us in everyday life. But yeah, and I kind of just didn’t feel like I was being my most authentic self. I thought, you know, I’ve got MS. It’s an unpredictable disease. I want to make sure that I am living my life exactly how I want to and to be able to to be able to be myself 100 percent, because that is something else I think really affects people’s symptoms. I think it is a lot of it can be a state of mind and our environment and the people that we surround yourself with. So I was like, okay, I want to leave this job and I want to start a job. And I knew I wanted it to be in the cannabis or CBD industry. I wanted to culminate all my passions. So after CBD, my second passion was clean beauty. So like I mentioned, I’d grown up on a very natural lifestyle. My mom had always made us skin care at home. She was very against me using sort of like, you know, traditional deodorant. And then at the age of 17, 18, I’d kind of like wavered from that path, into using kind of like everyday products that all my friends were using, you know, my friends were using Simple, I wanted to use Simple. If they’re using Nivea, I wanted to use Nivea and kind of just piling all this crap onto my body. Which then again, when I was diagnosed, I looked I thought, you know what? The average woman applies over 120 chemicals in her body every day. It builds up a toxic load. And I need to make sure that I am removing all of this from my body. So I kind of went back to how I was brought up and and looked at clean beauty. I’ve always been very obsessed with skin care and looking after my skin. So, yeah, it basically was a combination of my passions at that time, which was CBD, clean beauty and what I wanted to do to what I really wanted is I’ve always wanted clean beauty, but I really wanted it to work so well. I looked at Ohana is producing highly efficacious skin care products with clinically validated ingredients that have really similar results as a traditional counterpart would to produce highly functional natural skincare.  And so that’s how it came about. 

Le’Nise [00:30:25] That’s so interesting. And I think whenever I hear stories of female entrepreneurs and their journey to starting their business. It’s it’s so different, but there is always that one moment the spark that they have that gets them going. And then, you know, it’s interesting to hear the journey that they take from from that spark. So with the products there, you have a range. I know I’ve spoken to another female founder of a CBD brand, and she says that due to regulations, you can’t say you can’t talk about any kind of medical properties or make any claims about the products. So she has to talk about it as skin care. But she says that, you know, she can say anecdotally in conversation that yet, you know, it can affect certain areas of your health and you can use it forperiod pain. Is it similar for you? 

Jasmin [00:31:33] Yeah. So we try and lead with education. So if we if we leave with education, we are. I think this is really important for this market as well, where education is. It’s still a very new novel ingredient that people don’t know that much about. But if we leave with education and people can, they know what it is, they can make their own minds up with how they use it. 

[00:32:01] I mean, I have my story on the Web site, which sometimes does come up as a bit of an issue. And also we will post blogs. So we do post a lot of educational content. I remember we did actually post a blog a couple of weeks ago of how CBD could actually potentially help with psoriasis because there’s inflammatory properties and the MHRA did actually email me and be like, take this down right now. OK. But how we have overcome that is using the clinically proven plant based actives. So, for example, in our All In One Wonder Bomb our active is called Diam Oleoactif, it’s clinically proven to be double anti-inflammatory, free radical. And it’s in studies it was mostly it was mostly studied with the use of if you suffer from rosacea. So we have an ingredient in which we can make claims for that can help with the rosacea. 

Le’Nise [00:32:59] Where do you think the industry needs to go in order to connect the overwhelming anecdotal benefits of CBD with what’s available right now in terms of clinical research and clinical evidence? 

Jasmin [00:33:19] I think that we need more. There needs to be more studies, which I think will is definitely going to happen now. The regulations in America are changing where a lot of the education come from. And there’s a lot of education that comes from Israel as well. They are kind of like spearheading the the science backed kind of evidence. A lot of the evidence is coming out, as is Canada, because it’s completely legalised country now. I think education is just the most important thing. And empower. I see it one day is becoming like, you know, a vitamin just an everyday vitamin, like vitamin D would be or vitamin C and it becoming an everyday ingredient into into a multitude of products that we use  to wellbeing and our health. But I do think that there needs to be a really strong educational drive from brands. And that’s what we’ve done a year before we launched we just focused on education. So we just put our content and we put out interviews. We just really try to educate our consumer as much as possible so we don’t even necessarily have to make claims because people know what they’re using it for. So, you know, we get a lot of people that are maybe trying to manage arthritis pain or similar to me like MS pain or like knee pain. My cousin’s got fibromyalgia. She uses it. My uncle’s got lupus. And he has a lupus rash on his nose. We use that. My niece has eczema. We’ve used it on my niece. So I think it’s really just the education point that needs to be really driven. And I think there needs to be more quality from the brand owners to drive that basically. 

Le’Nise [00:35:08] And in terms of the industry, what I’ve seen from what I’ve read and different videos that I’ve seen online is it at the moment is very male dominated. And you set up the Entourage Network, which is a women’s empowerment organisation for people to engage and explore the cannabis market in Europe. What do you think needs to be done to bring more women into the space? 

Jasmin [00:35:41] So, yeah, Jessica Steinberg, who is a PhD student at Oxford exploring a subject matter on cannabis, which I can never actually remember off the top of my head, it’s a very, very long it’s very it’s got a very long name. Me and Jess met in a cannabis coworking space back in 2018, we were the only females there. So we’re like, okay, we’re going to be friends. We both have similar interests and there’s there’s no other women about. And what from my research from kind of like, you know, travelled across Europe and America. What I had seen that in America, they had a very high level of women in C level, C suite level positions and above that, but as every state legalised that number would decline because, you know, other industries come into it. It’s the same thing has happened in the UK so that we do have a really high level of female founders and female entrepreneurs in this space. But as legalisation becomes more dominant, you get other industries coming into it. You’ve got the VC world coming into a finance insurance and lawyers like really traditional industries that are already male dominated. So it’s very, very hard to have an equal female representation, however, because there is no blueprint of the cannabis industry. It is a really, really amazing opportunity for there to be equality from the offset. So I think it was really important for us at that time, as in the UK, it’s a nascent industry that we put in place a structure that allows women to be at the forefront of the industry and to have an equal stake in it as well. I think some of the issues that we have is, again, just like I said, you know, it’s not it’s traditional industries coming into it that are led by men. And then also it just comes down to the whole financing piece as well. It’s in securing outside investment. Women are you know, women only get like 0.2% of outside funding for their company as it is. Being woman of colour, being a Black woman that, you know, I’m in a 0.2% bracket of that. So we like to put together sessions and workshops that are going to enable women to overcome these issues. 

Le’Nise [00:38:04] Can you talk a little bit more about being a Black woman in this industry, so, in the US, for, example, the majority of people who are in prison for cannabis offenses are Black. I don’t know where the figures are in the UK. 

Jasmin [00:38:22] Pretty similar.

Le’Nise [00:38:24] OK. And then you see the people, as you mentioned, who are leading this industry. They are overwhelmingly White. So talk a little bit about your your view and your vision as a Black woman in this industry. 

Jasmin [00:38:41] So when I first started, I wasn’t really that conscious of it. But as I have grown in confidence and my voice and my position within the industry, then I have one, started to recognise it a lot more and become a lot more vocal about it. So I’ve been to a lot of the conferences in this industry can be really expensive as well. So I’ve been to 400 pound a day, eight hundred pound a day, thousand pound a day conferences. And that is a significant lack of Black people or ethnic minorities and women at these conferences. So what I make sure that I do is make the people who are holding the events accountable. So I asked them what they are doing, what their initiatives are to increase equality and an increase in equal representation.

One just happened the other day, actually. There is a group called Minorities for Medical Marijuana. It’s an American group and they do have a subset in the UK. And there was an event happening, an online event happening. And I emailed the CEO and I was like, look, I’ve been to one of your events in the past. There is an absolute lack of diversity. And the attendees. Can you give me some tickets so I can distribute them between the and the Minorities for Medical Marijuana group, which they were happy to do so. So I think it’s just about having a voice. I also there’s a lot of I remember once I was also sitting in one of the poshest private member’s clubs in Mayfair. I went to meet someone about investment and they were discussing projects that they had going on. And they had a project going on in Africa at the time. And they were really, really excited about it. And they wanted to distribute money into Ohana. And my question to them was, Okay, can you explain to me what you are then doing to empower the African people in the local areas and then also with jobs and, you know, uplift in the community? 

[00:40:57] And they were immediately unable to answer that to me. And that to me is absolutely unacceptable and expressing, you know, expressing how that needs to change. And I couldn’t I wouldn’t be necessarily willing to work with a company like that because it’s not aligned with my values. So I think holding each other accountable, being aware. And again, back to the education piece is really important for black people because in the UK it’s still not different. You know, you’re still 14 times more likely to be stopped and searched for cannabis if you’re a Black male in the UK and you’re still more likely to get harsher penalties and sentences. So that is something that I feel very passionate about and hope to continue to have a voice that can hopefully make a change. 

Le’Nise [00:41:56] If someone’s listening to this podcast, and  is thinking what can I do to make a change in this in this sector? What can I do, I’m really shook by these stats that that in just Jasmin has said about penalties and harsher, harsher penalties and stop and search. What can I do? What would you advise them? 

Jasmin [00:42:22] I think we’re getting that advise. I think it starts, you know, with everything that’s happening at the moment in the world and the drive of Black Lives Matter. And each and every one of us, everyone just educating themselves more and becoming aware of their unconscious bias. You know, I had this conversation with one of my old colleagues the other day. You know, I said, I know you never realised at the time, but this is every point of which I remember that you expressed a racist remark in front of me that made me feel extremely uncomfortable. 

[00:42:57] And I think, you know, with how much education there is going on, and awareness out there at the moment, this is really a good time to kind of like educate yourself and be mindful of that. And I think we all have to do it. I think nobody is. Everybody has unconscious biases. I think it’s really important that we all just use the many, many tools that are available and out there at the moment that we see every day on social media. We see it. We do Instagram. We see every day in our WhatsApp groups from our friends and family. And just making sure that we’re educating each other as much as possible. And then also just having the confidence to keep those around us accountable. 

Le’Nise [00:43:38] How can people find out more about the product? So you’ve just had a launch? I think it earlier it last week you had a launch. How can people access your products? 

Jasmin [00:43:54] Yep. So we launched last Monday. Our Instagram is @ohanacbd as you can research, our products at www.ohana-cbd.com. You will see the three products that we have on offer. So what we do is think, like we mentioned earlier, we use plant based actives combined with high functioning skin care and benefits of CBD are, you know, the kind of evidence that we have so far to be anti-inflammatory, anti ageing. It’s full of omega 3s and fatty acids. And it’s really good for  controlling free radicals, et cetera. So they are the kind of benefits.  We have three products, we have got an All in One Wonder Balm. We have a Night Repair Oil and we have a Day Defence Serum that is useful anti pollutant. So, for example, we use Marine Cell Shield, which is a clinically active, proven active that helps protect your skin against outside pollutants and Marine Blue Vital C, which is again a clinically proven active that combats signs of ageing and hyper pigmentation. On our website, you’ll be able to see like all our products or the information, we make it very transparent. So, you know, we state that we’re cruelty vegan and palm oil free and we’ll break it down. So, you know, I’m I’ve never really been a fan of this term 100 percent natural because I think that’s very misleading. So we break it down to be very specific. So will our products are, you know, maybe around ninety nine point seven percent natural or ninety seven point three percent natural. And so we try and be as honest and transparent as possible. And yep, you just get more education around our products and what we’re doing differently and how we are leading the CBD skincare industry for the UK. 

Le’Nise [00:45:48] Amazing. Well, congratulations on the launch. I’m really excited to try your products. Dive into the website. Try your products. If listeners take one thing away from everything that you’ve said on this podcast,  what would you want that to be? 

Jasmin [00:46:08] I would say. I always find this really difficult. I’ve actually been asked this quite a few times in the last few weeks, and I always want to say you do have a positive mindset. But I know that is not easy for everybody. I don’t like it. I don’t like it, too, to come across that I’m being nonchalant about that. My one bit of advice for everybody. My bit of advice actually is to always make sure that you have confidence in your voice and your living, your most authentic self. I think everything else falls into place after that. 

Le’Nise [00:46:53] Absolutely. I love that because I really relate to that right now. I was talking to someone yesterday about how I felt like in the last couple of months, my throat chakra had opened up and I have finally found my my voice after hiding it and suppressing it for so long. So I really relate to what you’ve just said. 

Jasmin [00:47:20] Yeah, I love that. I just think I think it’s this is the same I think we all going through a like a conscious shift at the moment where we all are empowering ourselves and all we’re feeling more confident for our voices to be heard, especially as women. Yeah. And I think that’s really important. Our mission for Ohana is first and foremost to just empower, empower women to live their best lives, essentially not. 

Le’Nise [00:47:51] Live your best life like Oprah!

Jasmin [00:47:56] That’s the best thing to live by. I literally every day I wake up and I just try and live my best life. 

Le’Nise [00:48:05] Oh, thank you so much for coming on the show, Jasmin. It’s so it’s been so great to chat to and listeners all of the links and to what Jasmin has been talking about and to Ohana will be in the show notes. So check those out and definitely head over to Jasmin’s Instagram @ohanacbd and check out her products. So thank you again. 

Jasmin [00:48:34] Thank you so much. It’s been a great way to start the day. 

Period Story Podcast, Episode 24: Sarah Greenidge, Think Of Your Health Literacy As A Core Skill

Welcome to season 3 of the Period Story podcast. I’m so pleased to start the new season with Sarah Greenidge, the founder of WellSpoken.

We had a wide ranging conversation about tracking menstrual cycles and symptoms, the important of credible content in the health and wellbeing sector, the value of anecdotal evidence and the importance of diversity and inclusion in the wellbeing sector. Sarah discussed the launch of the WellSpoken diversity charter, which you can read more about here. And of course, Sarah shared the story of her first period!

Sarah shares the very vivid memory of her first period, her shock, overwhelm and shame. She talks about how these feelings changed as she went into high school and having a period became an empowering thing.

Listen to hear what triggered Sarah to learn more about her period and start tracking her menstrual cycle. She says that become knowledgeable about her body has made her more cognisant of how others could be feeling.

Sarah talks about her periods in lockdown and how she saw a shift from what’s normal for her. In the episode, Sarah goes into detail into the symptoms she tracks (with a massive Excel spreadsheet!) and the cues she pays attention to that tell her period is about to start. Listen to hear her top tips on how to start tracking your menstrual cycle. 

We talk about why Sarah founded her company, WellSpoken, the importance of health literacy. Sarah says that in the UK, consumer ability to understand health information and then make an informed decision is quite low. 

We talk about the importance of diversity in wellness and the health implications of lack of diversity in wellness. Sarah says that race and discrimination play a part in the way people can receive health information and how and if they seek help. Go to to this link to find out more about the diversity charter, which asks brands to commit to improving diversity in the wellness industry.

Sarah says that we need to think of health literacy as a core skill so that we can more informed decisions about our health. I completely agree!

Get in touch with Sarah





After working in healthcare regulation and communications for some years, Sarah broadened her horizons and started consulting for consumer health and wellness brands.

Coming from such a regulated healthcare space, where evidence-based information is king, she was concerned about the quality of consumer content in wellness, and that brand partnerships were largely based on popularity and not necessarily expertise.

After raising these issue to a few people working in the industry, she was met with the response that the industry was ‘different’ and ‘doesn’t need to be as strict with what we say.’

It was here that the mission to tackle this mindset was conceived and a year later The WellSpoken Mark was born.










Le’Nise: On today’s episode, we have Sarah Greenidge. After working in healthcare regulation and communications, for some years, she decided to broaden her horizons and started consulting for consumer health and wellness brands. Coming from such a regulated healthcare space, where evidence based information is keen, she was concerned about the quality of consumer content and wellness, and that brand partnerships were largely based on popularity, and not necessarily expertise. After raising these issues to a few people working in the industry, she was met with a response that the industry was different, and doesn’t need to be strict with what they say. It was here, that the mission to tackle this mindset was conceived, and a year later, Sarah started The WellSpoken Mark.

Welcome to the show. Let’s start off by getting into the story of your first period. Can you tell us what happened?

Sarah: Yeah. I was 11 years old, and I remember coming downstairs of my parents house… I’ve had the same vivid memory… And going into their conservatory, it’s very specific, I remember this. And I remember feeling something in my underwear, and being really shocked when I looked and saw that there was blood. It was a real distinct memory for me because I was really overwhelmed. I remember just doing nothing for a couple of hours before. Then I told my mom, what had happened. It was interesting, and I question, in terms of thinking back, trying to unpick what that 11 year old Sarah was thinking. I think it was a mixture of shock and interestingly for me, somehow shame, interestingly. Which is why I didn’t say it straight away. I’ve been trying to think about why that was. I can’t piece together that 11 year old mind now, because I feel, obviously so differently. But that was kind of an important part of not saying.

Le’Nise: How long did you wait until you told your parents?

Sarah: It was a couple of hours, definitely.

Le’Nise: Okay.

Sarah: Yeah. My mom was completely normal, and dealt with it beautifully. That was a real internalised feeling because it didn’t match my mom’s response, if that makes sense. But that to me, is really interesting that that is something that I had a view of that for some reason, at 11 years old. Which is sad actually, when you think about it.

Le’Nise: Thinking back on this feeling of shame right now, do you think that it was because of the way periods had been spoken about at the time? Things you had heard at school.

Sarah: Yeah, I think definitely so. At the time, girls were starting to get their periods at school, and for some reason, it was talked about very negatively, within that… So that would have been… I would have been year seven actually, when it happened, which is the first year of middle school or high school, wherever you’re based. At the time, socially, for that group of 11 year olds, it was talked about very negatively.

I remember specifically hearing about another little girl who had her period already, and I remember going on a school trip, an overnight stay, and this girl very, just normally, showing that she had started her period quite early… What I thought was early as an 11 year old. I think she was nine or 10, or something. And the reaction of the girls in the room was really one of, almost shock and horror. And that really stuck with me, then, when that happened to me, I think. It’s interesting even thinking about that because I haven’t thought about that for 20 years. But yeah, actually it was really interesting how in that little, baby, kid society, it was seen as very negative, and I think maybe dirty, I think, without saying those words, because you don’t have that language at 11, but that was the sense…

Le’Nise: Thinking about it now, how long did it take you to move past this feeling? Or, on the other side, have you moved past that feeling?

Sarah: Actually, I think I moved past that by the time I was, probably 13 or 14. The reason is, is that at that point, the majority of the young women I was around at that time had started their periods, and then this stigma, just because everyone had it, dissipated, if that makes sense. There was no longer this… It was just a normal part of our lives. It wasn’t something that we spoke about, but it no longer had that sort of reaction. Then onwards, it was spoken about quite frequently because people would use that to get out of swimming and P.E. class. Then it actually… It became this empowered thing that we’d use to get out of PE: “Possibly can’t do this because of my period.” So, it’s interesting that in two to three years, how the transition happened where… The society I was in, or where I was living.

Le’Nise: Going from being this shock and horror, to being this empowerment and using it as a tool to manipulate teachers.

Sarah: Then there was no problem talking about it, whatsoever. That’s something… Never really thought about that, but there must have been a transition in those three to four years, because I was still in the schooling system at that point.

Le’Nise: Right. The girls were talking about so freely, what about the education in the school around it?

Sarah: I don’t remember, really, anything particularly. There must have been, but I have no memory whatsoever, outside of, maybe when I got a bit older… The first time I remember really talking about periods… Maybe I was in primary school, but it was all very anatomical and I didn’t really understand I think, at that point. Then the next time I really, probably, got education about the reproductive system, I was in college. I was in A level biology, probably. And that’s because I took that course. But I don’t remember, even in… We had a thing called PSHE here that doesn’t exist anymore, it’s kind of like your social class of culture and what happens in the world. And often they talked to you about sex at that point. I remember more distinctly, it being about sex safety and safe sex, than about biological function of your body. There was never really that focus. So, I did all of learning much after.

Le’Nise: So, your own, personal learning?

Sarah: Yeah. Even thinking about my… I don’t even really remember much from learning either. The thing is, I don’t have memory of it, it doesn’t mean that it didn’t happen, but it obviously wasn’t enough for me, to stick into my memory. I think it was brief and fast. So, I think that’s interesting. Then I did my own learning, 16 up.

Le’Nise: How did you learn? Internet? Books?

Sarah: Internet.

Le’Nise: I see.

Sarah: At that point… This is when you could get onto… Not to show my age, but this was the start of when you could get internet on your phones. It was the first time… I was about 16 or 17… And it was slow. Just going on the computer and looking. What triggered me to look actually, was I used to get, and still do sometimes but nowhere near as much when I was in my teens and early 20s, really bad headaches around my period time. I didn’t have cramps so much, it was the headaches before I would come onto my period. And because I found those so debilitating… And then, it could trigger a migraine… I was seeking solutions because of that. In which, I then did more learning about periods and reproductive cycle, if that makes sense. But it actually wasn’t because I was looking for information, it’s because I had a symptom I needed to get under control, or think about how I could manage it. I was looking for ways to stop your headache, that kind of stuff, and that’s what prompted the learning.

Le’Nise: So, what did you ending up doing to stop the headaches?

Sarah: It was a lot of trial and error. I did every change in foods and diets that you think of. I then… Well, I started to talk more to my family, and actually what I found out was, that was something that, on my mother’s side, everyone had. From mother, to grandmother, to… Really bad headaches. So where there’s a familiar link of… Perhaps that’s something how our bodies respond, or… To the hormone change. And it made me understand a bit more about what happens before your period, if that makes sense, in that phase. And try and manage those hormones, trying to get more sleep.

Sarah: It was lifestyle changes that I did. To be honest, I did a lot of stuff in my late teens, early 20s, and not much worked. It was a real combination. Then as I started to get older, that started to go away, which, my mom told me it would. She said that that was something that happened to all of them, from their teenage years to their early 20s, and then it shifts. I guess your body goes through a shift in how it manages the hormones. So yeah, that was how I managed it. But I still do get that sometimes, now. It’s very stress related and it’s very sleep related, for me.

Le’Nise: How has it been in the last three months?

Sarah: To be honest, I’ve had… So, I also… On top of the complication, depending on where I ovulate, what side, what I’ve noticed is that depending on the side, I get quite bad cramps and no headache, or on the other side, I get not very many cramps, and headaches. It will alternate the month, for me, actually, on what symptoms I get. It took a long time tracking that.

Sarah: I think over the last three months, I’ve had pretty… Bar the last one, I had pretty bad periods, in terms of quite a shift from my norm, in terms of symptoms… There’s a couple of things I know for sure is, one, I think just a lot of heightened stress, with just this lockdown and all that kind of stuff, I found that I’m working a lot and not able to switch off because I’m working at home, you don’t turn off. So it’s a heightened level of stress all the time. What I have done is… And also, bad sleeping. Also, super bad sleeping. And that has had an effect…

What I’ve really done over the last month when I thought, I need to get a grip on this… Because my headaches can last two to three days… Is, I’ve upped my exercise, quite substantially, and dropped a lot of sugar from my diet. Which, what I’ve realized is the entire time we’ve been in lockdown, I started to eat badly. It compounds, and then it has an effect. Then my last period was much better because of taking quite proactive action, and sleep. And I think that’s the real trigger for me really. And it’s been interesting, I’ve been relatively okay… I would get the old bad period here and there, but I could tell you why that was. Normally I could say, I had a terrible week of sleep, I was just super stressed, or I ate really badly that month. I could really pin it down. So, I think lockdown has a lot to do with it.

Le’Nise: It’s interesting that you are able to… You have such precision now in the way that you track your menstrual cycle, and you can say exactly, well, this is what happened to me in that week, so this is why my period… Or this is like this, or this is how I feel, why I felt like this. Can you talk a little bit about what you used to track, and how you… You said trial and error. So, what were the kinds of things that you trialed to get to that precision and tracking?

Sarah: Awhile back… I, in terms of a career, worked a lot in Pharma, and I actually ended up training to be a sexual health advisor. I worked in sexual health for a long time, and HIV. So, through my work there, I became super aware of your reproductive cycle as a woman, and just more au fait with stuff that I had no idea. That’s the key thing, is that most of us know very little.

Then, I went on to work with some of the big health tech giants who do tracking for fertility, and got into working in fertility and IVF. What was really great with that is, I suddenly became aware of the science behind reproduction, and also, how we as women, can have cues that we didn’t necessarily pick up on.

One of the things that I really did was, first… There’s a friend of mine, many years ago, who told me to do this. She goes, “Every day write down…” This was the before the apps… “Write down how you feel and if you have any symptoms.” Just bullet points, not enough sleep, slept well, what I’ve eaten, if I ate anything unusual, that kind of jazz. It took me about four months of doing that consistently to then start to pull the data and look at patterns. That was commitment. It’s something I did in my mid 20s. I was also then, a data geek, so that helped with finding patterns and sequences.

In terms of the trial and error, there were a lot of things I thought I saw as patterns, that turned out over the years, to not be. And things that I put very little onus on turned out to be, for me personally, and my body, turned out to be big factors into how I am. I think that the key thing that has… The hardest thing for me has been the food, and eating well, because that takes a level of discipline, and you have to… I guess, you have to be so cognizant, and it needs to become a practice that eating something, or whatever you’re doing, to link this in your brain, as a connection to how this can affect your menstrual cycles. And sometimes I don’t have that, to be honest, and I regret it after, I should have thought about that.

Where I have got better is, with the sleep really… Because I seem to function better as well, and also what was really helpful was I tracked a lot of my symptoms pre period, for me to know when I was going to come on. There’s a lot of cues that I now pay attention to that I would think, oh, I’ve just got this ache, or… For instance, I know, about three days before I’m about to come on I struggle with… I know restless leg is controversial, but I feel my legs… I’ve got almost like… Not cramps, but I feel restless in my legs at night.

Le’Nise: Right.

Sarah: That is that… So I know at that point, that means that my period is coming. So all these little… Whereas before, I would pin that down to, maybe exercise.

Le’Nise: Right.

Sarah: But actually, I know the difference between a DOM feeling of exercise, and this deep ache, which is slightly different. It’s not painful, it’s more uncomfortable. Then, things like breast tenderness, aches in your back. But it took a long time of writing those down. And not every month was the same, that was a key thing for me. So, it took me quite a long time to work out what… Some months, I’d get something, and some months I don’t. I’m not actually very consistent, if that makes sense, with my symptoms. I know some people are like… When I’ve talked to friends they’re like clockwork on, I get this pain here, and then this happens. Whereas for me, it really much depends on how I’ve lived that month. So, it’s just getting really au fait with my body actually, and get to know my body and then sense what is happening.

Le’Nise: So, this journey of you getting comfortable and more knowledgeable about your body, what else has it changed for you?

Sarah: I think it’s made me much more… Really good question. I think… This could sound strange… In general, it’s made me more conscious as a person, as a weird side effect, because I think a lot of the time, we live life on auto-pilot. We go through and just live… But, trying to stop and be present, and think about what’s happening, has spilled over into other areas of my life, weirdly. I never thought that, that would be a symptom but it has, it’s made me much more cognizant of how others could be feeling.

That sounds strange, but it really has made me think about being more in tune with my body in terms of… Sometimes I feel really flat, some days. Like zilch, nothing, and different phases of my period, I can feel that just absolute numbness, and I’m a quite motivated person, so that’s a real drop for me because of my personality, and I can’t get out of it. But sometimes when I go up to people, and I see them in that mood, it makes me empathetic in a way, because it’s made me think about what they could be going through. Not necessarily menstrual cycle, but in terms of our mental health, and our emotional well being. I think that it’s made me more hyper aware of the mind, body connection, I think, as a weird life symptom of being more in tune with your menstrual cycle.

Le’Nise: Yeah. You said that it makes you more empathetic to what people are going through, does it change the way that you interact with them?

Sarah: Yeah. Definitely. I think one of the things that has definitely come out of… Even trying to manage my own periods and trying to figure out what’s happening, is patience and exercising that, and… I’m somebody that wants the answer yesterday, as opposed to… Actually you can’t do that because sometimes… If I have something that feels a bit odd, I don’t know the reason straight away… And then actually, I would get real frustrated by that. Actually that is indicative of, probably who I was as a person, as a personality, and that’s made me really think about, in the way I interact with others, to have that patience and compassion. That sometimes things are happening and people don’t know why, or people may be having a reaction, or an exchange with somebody that you found frustrating, and to think more about why am I getting this reaction? What is stimulating this? As opposed to being, just immediately reactive.

Le’Nise: Yeah. I want to just go back to the tracking, because I think that it’s something obviously, that I encourage all of my clients to do. You get so much valuable information, data, whatever you want to call it.

Sarah: Yeah.

Le’Nise: If someone’s listening and they think, yeah, I know I need to do this but how do I do it? What would your advice be based on your experience?

Sarah: First I would say, find the method that works for you, in terms of that is the ease of tracking. Because, I think one of the things that, with tracking, I find important, is that you need to be consistent, otherwise you won’t get that… You’re not going to see the… I say data. But you’re not going to see the patterns if you miss three days. Within a three day period, there can be such valuable information that happens in those 72 hours. So, you need to be consistent.

If you’re glued to your phone, get an app or do it in your notes. If you’re a journaler, write it down. But I find that… When I was doing this years ago, I was doing this manually, which took a lot of effort. Now, there’s loads of apps that allow you to just tick boxes. For instance, they’re picking up the arduous labor of it. So, I think you can track it, and I would encourage people to do that. In that way, you just build that habit.

The key thing is, just try and do it for a month, one month, and that’s… To be honest, is enough sometimes, for you to motivate you further. I think it just brings such valuable information. So I would say, find the way to track. The one thing about tracking, even though I’m a data geek is, I think you need to track what is intuitive to you, as opposed to trying to tick some boxes because…

Actually, when I first started, the best advice I got is just track what you feel, and I know that sounds vague and annoying but, that gave me the freedom to put down things that seemed innocuous, that then turned out to be really important. So, you don’t have to put how many hours that… You don’t have to be that descriptive, I think it’s just doing what works for you. If you just want to track your mood, or you want to track biological physical symptoms, great. I think that, that’s super important, to not be so rigid that you don’t do it, and it becomes to you, labor. Any data is good data in my book.

Le’Nise: I just have this vision of you with this massive Excel spreadsheet-

Sarah: No, there was an Excel sheet. There was. There actually was.

Le’Nise: Brilliant. That is brilliant.

Sarah: What motivated me is because I had… If I hadn’t had symptoms that really annoyed me, where I found it hard, I wouldn’t have had that motivation I don’t think. But because I wanted to really get to the bottom of these headaches, out came the Excel sheet.

Le’Nise: Yeah. Were there pivot tables?

Sarah: Yeah.

Le’Nise: I want to shift gears and talk about your work and the company that you’ve founded, WellSpoken Mark. Talk to us about why you thought this was necessary, and the steps that you’re taking at the moment.

Sarah: Yeah, sure. As I mentioned before, my career was working in the medical health care setting. I worked with a lot of Pharma companies and NGOs and health care situations, to do work there in terms of improving peoples’ health in, specifically these areas. I then became a consultant at that particular point in my career, and I stumbled into working for someone who needed help with some consumer health stuff.

So, this is the stuff that comes out of the really hard regs that comes around Pharma and medical stuff that is a bit more life and death. And this was more in terms of just healthy living. When I looked at the content people were producing I was really shocked at the standards because, evidently when you have really hard legislation in place when it comes to showing information about prescription drugs, you have to be by the book because, there’s no room for someone to misunderstand a dosing, because the consequences are so huge. Your communication has to work for everybody. Everybody needs to understand precisely what you’re saying.

What I found is, because there wasn’t that rigor, I felt, in the more wellness, consumer field… Because actually, the results and the outcomes aren’t so serious it seems. And that’s why I would say, it doesn’t seem that it’s that serious on the outset. But what I really believe is that health is 360, and I really believe in preventative health, and I think healthy living comes onto that.

And our society is really focused on treatment, rather than prevention, and that reflects in how we treat information about prevention. So, I saw that there was a lot of, just crap and it was chaos. I thought, we need to figure out a way to bring some of the rigor that we have in the medical field, into this field because it equally is important. If you take on a wrong diet regime, or you exercise incorrectly with poor form, you can hurt yourself. So, it’s important.

So there was the spark of where WellSpoken Mark was founded. What essentially we are is, a co-op mark and we work with brands to ensure that the content they’re producing, meets a certain credibility standard before it goes out to you and I in the consumer space. We worked with two universities, one in Barcelona, and one in Sheffield, they’ve both got health information support departments, which is… That’s a whole other world. And that looks at the way that we as humans now interact with health information, especially online and the way that consumer trust works. They may seem like really odd buckets but actually, the way that we engage with health information, our guard is down societally, in a way that it’s not when we deal with let’s say money.

I’ll give you a classic example. I did a focus group and a lady talked to me about, she signed up for a meal prep service that was being advertised on Instagram, loved it, she said she couldn’t wait to get her food, she just wanted to get her macros, and all that kind of good jazz. And she signed up via a promotion on Instagram, she signed up with some influencer’s code, and it was mighty expensive obviously, per month. You’re talking in the hundreds in terms of the cost to do that.

She then said what she then realized is, at the same time she was looking to lease a car, and actually same amount of money per month. But she was going into the fine print of that leasing contract, she was looking around at different vendors to see where she could get the best deal, and her approach to spending her money in terms of a car, was so different to the way that she literally clicked a link and paid hundreds of pounds a month via social media to improve her health as it were. And that’s a classic example of where we are as a society at the moment.

Just the way that we tend to have no guard when it comes to healthy information, which is what a lot of… What we absorb, but all of this information without fact checking credit… It looks glossy on Instagram, we just assume everything is above God. And because of that, and because our health literacy, which is… It’s basically two parts. It’s our ability to understand health information and then make an informed decision with that information. Globally, but in the UK specifically, it’s quite low. Even though we are quite a developed country and strong economically, you would think that those two go hand, and they don’t.

What that means is that, as a consumer base, we don’t have the skills yet. And often, we’re not taught those skills, whether it be in school, or wherever to decipher good or bad health information. We think it’s really important then, if you are a producer of that health information, that you need to take that on board, and you need to think about, how do you… Make sure that your… Whoever’s your audience, doesn’t misunderstand the information you’re putting out, and then doesn’t do something with that information that, then is detrimental.

There was a real big move in terms of clean eating, a couple of years ago and then what you had was, a real spike in orthorexia, for instance. Which is, being obsessive with healthy eating, or you had the… When people talk about mental health, they just move… The naturalist movement to not taking any medication. But actually, if you have a serious health condition, suddenly not taking your prescribed medication because you see this move on Instagram, is not ideal for you. People are making health actions without checking with health professionals because we have this peer to peer learning culture in health, actually that’s great but, there’s some negatives to that. What’s really important for us in terms of working with wellness brands, with all that considered, is them thinking about… When you’re communicating with your audience, you need to think about their health literacy rates, but also what impacts them.

And our next big thing that we’re engaging brands in is, to think about health inequalities when it comes to different socioeconomic groups and actually, race plays a part in that, and we’ve had a lot of talk about the lack of current diversity in wellness. Although, that… From a social perspective, that’s not great in terms of it does not represent part of the community, it actually has health implications, because if you look at the data, health outcomes for black and minority people are much lower than white people, in the UK. And part of the reason for that… There was a real big move in the 90s and early 2000s that, it was due to cultural and genetic factors… I put in inverted commas… But what we now know is, that racism and discrimination plays a part in the way that people can receive health information and how they can seek help. It’s all bundled into one big snowball. If you’re sharing health and wellness information it’s important to think about every one in your audience, not just people that are necessarily wealthy, or highly educated, or have more social mobility.

So, our next big thing is, engaging wellness brands to sign a diversity charter, which makes some commitments to improving diversity in the wellness industry. Which will have, I hope, better implications in terms of making the wellness industry more representative of the population, but also actually, on the content they produce. Bearing in mind that it’s not just for their audience.

Le’Nise: I want to go back to what you were saying about health literacy, and how in the UK you would assume it’s high, but it’s actually quite low. And you talked about this peer to peer learning culture around health, and what’s really interesting is, there’s a lot of statistics that show that amongst black people, trust in doctors is actually quite low. So, how do you connect this idea of low trust in doctors with lack of health literacy, but also this peer to peer learning culture?

Sarah: Yeah. I think… God, that’s a big question… There’s multi layers to it. You’re absolutely right, that is a big ball of chaos because you have all those elements playing at one. I think it’s to… One is to really unpick why there’s this low trust with health care professionals. Often, that’s generationally passed down. I’ll give you an example from my own family, in terms of how that is positioned. It actually does come from a place of personal anecdotal experience, often. That often… If you look at the data, in terms of people’s experiences, what you’ll find is they say they’ve had a very negative interaction with a health care professional, they have perceived that to be because of who they are, and their skin color, and they’ve had poor treatment or poor interactions because of that. And obviously, no one’s going to go back to somewhere that doesn’t engage you or interact with you well.

So, I think on that level, we need to ensure that health care professionals are proactively, and they’re visibly making those changes, to build that trust with those communities. Unfortunately, it’s alive and kicking today. Even when we look at the MMBRACE report, in terms of women dying in childbirth but five times more likely if you’re black, and then even with this COVID situation with band groups who are dying disproportionately, there’s a lot of work to be done there.

I think one of the key things that health care professionals can do is, they need to engage with community pillars. So, have conversations, to bring them into the community to be seen as a safe space. Where it comes into social peer to peer learning, what we have in the community, I think, is some brilliant networks, in terms of people that are connected to each other, sharing information. And health care professionals need to tap in. I think also, the leaders of those networks, or people that are influential within our black community, in terms of… On social media, who are driving a lot of the conversation, I think also need to have a…

It’s a mental move, rather than anything visual, a move to actually not seeing themselves as influencers or just information sharers, and to see themselves as information providers. When you make that shift in your head, there comes a level of rigour because now, as a responsibility, as a person who’s sharing information, and you know that your influence is quite big, and you know that people will take your information and run with it. With that responsibility, then we need to employ some of the practices that we see in other institutions where there’s liability. So that means, providing things like references, moving in from sharing, to education. And it’s a really subtle shift, it’s not necessarily something that you can just do that someone talks about, I think it’s just the way that you communicate, and focus on providing facts and improving someone’s health literacy.

Because when we talk about health literacy, particularly in wellness in general, but also in wellness in the black community, what you’ll see is, people will recommend something and… Because of group think, and the way that we interact in a social setting, people will have an understanding that, this is healthy for me because… Or something. They’re not quite clear when you ask them, why is that healthy? They just know that it is. And then they’ll then do it. But that’s low health literacy because that means that you can’t explain why you’re making those choices.

So, we need to plug where we know those gaps are, to make sure that you communicate to… I always say, it’s the lowest denominator, not the highest… Not the most educated person in your audience, the person that doesn’t know anything, and that’s actually where you need to be based. So, what I’m hoping that in time… It’s going to be a compound move, as opposed to one thing, within the black community. But I think once we… I think there’s a growing acceptance now that… And the science backs us… That this myth that… There are some things that are genetic in all race groups, so not just black community. But, we need to move away as a community to think that everything is cultural, everything is food based, everything is diet based, and once we acknowledge that there are some socioeconomic cultural aspects in play at why our health outcomes are worse, that helps us automatically do better, if that makes sense.

Le’Nise: Yeah. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. You mentioned going from an information sharer to an information provider, and I think what’s really interesting about that is, the idea of referencing is really powerful, but there’s a lot of anecdotal evidence that comes out of working with people, and you see a pattern, and sometimes… I just want to talk a little bit about this because sometimes in the science based community you see a lot of negative commentary around anecdotal evidence. Talk a little bit about your opinion about that.

Sarah: Yeah. I personally think anecdotal evidence has a huge part to play in terms of linking that data and clinical decision making, I actually think. Because, anecdotal evidence… A certain level of anecdotal evidence is required for you to see a pattern in your clinical study. So actually, it’s the precursor to what people see as the most rigorous data driven analysis. But, it has to come from somewhere, you’re not plucking it out of thin air. So I think, there’s a move… Can I use COVID as an example? To talk about where this negative connotation of anecdotal evidence has big health implications.

So, one of the things that I really believe is that, science moves faster, and information move faster, than we could ever publish it. So, just because something’s not published doesn’t mean it doesn’t hold truth, we just haven’t had 18 months to run a study. It doesn’t mean it’s not true.

Again, sorry, going back into geek mode. One of the real interesting things for me, in terms of looking at COVID, was looking at how we got to where we were, in terms of big spikes. People were looking for hard data… And actually, if you look at some of explanations from the way that the WHO and… They’re great, so it’s not to criticize them. I think it’s more to do with their culture. When doctors were reporting incidents of these weird cases… Because it was only anecdotal, it wasn’t taken quite seriously enough, until you hit a number, which was deemed to be important enough to take action. Now, I think in terms of that, having markers is super important I think, when it comes to things like medication and things that you’re ingesting or consuming. Because evidently there’s safety concerns that are associated with that.

So I think there’s a real… Still, there’s a place for having very clear parameters before you make claims, around certain aspects of health, that we have to have them, otherwise we’re going to get into people being quite ill. That’s not to say that’s not the case. I think by not having a positive view of anecdotal evidence, we actually rob ourselves sometimes from foresight and looking ahead at where things could be going because we’re waiting for things to hit a marker when we know it’s happening.

I think…I’ll give you an example in terms of more of the wellness field is… One of the things that’s quite interesting… And we don’t have a lot of data on it, but we know it as a trend… Is that, in some meditation practices what we have seen is… From clinical, small studies… Is that certain meditation practices, for certain people with certain mental health conditions, can actually exacerbate those conditions, as opposed to make things better. Now, what has happened is, because we’ve had the universal communication that meditation and mindfulness is brilliant for all… That has been the narrative. Anyone can do it… I’m thinking about all the messaging that we’ve seen from the big wellness brands… One, we didn’t have, in the western world, so many people doing it on mass, so we didn’t have the data. But when we did start to see some negative effects coming out of very niche groups… This was an example of where… Actually, people didn’t wait for 10,000 cases of this before issuing that advice, and we took anecdotal evidence quite seriously, and then made policy change within, for instance, institutions in terms of thinking about peoples’ mental health conditions.

So, this is where there is a role for anecdotal evidence. What I always say to people in terms of… Especially when you’re working in well being, where… Let’s be honest… Because, there’s no funding. Pharma’s not going to fund a well being study in terms of, there’s no product at the end of it. Let’s be honest. You don’t have the data because it doesn’t exist. Who’s going to fund it?

What I always say to people is, those markers are there for a reason, because it’s a safety thing. However, it doesn’t mean that you can’t share. So, I just think what we need to do is, just be clear to our audience that it is anecdotal evidence, and that is the way, I think, we have a good middle ground. Where we can still share the experiences of people, but we say, look, this is what we’ve seen as patterns with the people that we work with, for instance. This is not indicative that this is a health claim that this will be for you, but it’s something to consider. I think it’s about toning down the language all around health claims and absolutes. What might work for someone might not work for you. And then, positioning things that do, especially based on antidotal evidence, is where we just need to be careful. But, there is a place.

Le’Nise: Yeah. 100%.

Sarah: And I think we need to… Once we accept that science is… I know this sounds strange. Science is not all-knowing, and science shifts. I was a microbiologist by trade. It was funny, I was looking at my old textbooks from 10, 12 years ago, they’re outdated. I couldn’t even give that to anybody that’s studying now because the information there is… We know more. And actually, it’s not relevant anymore. So I think, if you see science as an evolving feat, anecdotal evidence has a role to play.

Le’Nise: I want to talk about the diversity in wellness project that you’re doing. It’s a really important topic, there’s a lot of conversation about race and Black Lives Matter right now. When will this be out? And how can people connect with it?

Sarah: The charter goes live on June the 15th, Monday, June the 15th. It’s super important. We know that within the wellness field… You and I have spoken about this before… There is a certain aesthetic, and there is a certain kind of elitism that is class based also. That’s important to say, it’s class, and then race comes under that. And you have a… In the place that’s supposed to be very inclusive, actually has become not very inclusive. So, we challenge that, and to challenge the people that, I would say, run the scene, because they’ve got the money behind it, they’re the powerhouse of the brand. What we’re calling for is, brands to commit to five pledges.

Now, what they cover is, corporate diversity, making sure that they’re internally hiring people that are from different ethnic backgrounds. To widen they’re perspective, especially within health. Education, so when you get the stuff, actually educating them on what we talked about in terms of health inequality and where race plays a role, and how you have to adapt your marketing instructions to a company. Fair pay, making sure that people are paid equally, that’s a problem in this scene unfortunately. Access…

Let me get it out… I missed one, I’m sorry. You might have to edit this, I forgot my five pledges…

Representation, so making sure that people are represented, seeing themselves in the scene. And then the last one is, all around access, so trying to make things more accessible for more people. When you have high price points… Actually, this is done very well in other fields. And it’s not necessarily that you always have a reduced cost rate, for instance. But there’s other strategies, you could pay it forward, there’s lots of ways that wellness brands can… If they are a high price point, think about supporting communities and low income communities that can’t get in. All that kind of stuff.

So, what we’re asking brands to do is, to sign up to these pledges, and then do the work to actually implement those in their companies. So, they way that it will work with us is, if you sign up as a brand, we will do an audit of, where does diversity sit in this company at the moment, what does it look like? And then we will work with them to basically, put a plan together that works for them that’s authentic, that’s organic, that’s not just optical allyship, that’s just not performative, but that actually has meaningful change, and a lot of that, probably we won’t see, if that makes sense. It’s internal changes. And then we will do annual reviews of how those changes are taking place. Because, I think it’s quite a big structural shift.

So I think at the same time, we need to give companies time to make those changes in a really authentic way, and not in a knee jerk way. Because actually, you end up getting things wrong when you do things in a reactionary state, rather than in really considered states.

As for what we’re asking people to do when we launch is… In the link in our bio what we will have is… We’re hoping to do a pincer movement. I think this is what’s going to bring about change. We will have the charter, which we’re directly approaching brands, to sign up to. But then we’re going to have an email template that people in the community, people in wellness can copy and paste and send to their favorite wellness brands and say, “Have you signed up for this charter?” We had over 150 now, as of this morning, black and minority wellness practitioners, or professionals working in the field, sign up and give their support to this charter. So for me, it’s really… It’s of the people and it’s for the people, if that makes sense. This is what we as a community are calling for, and then if we mobilize both ends, it puts the right amount of pressure, I think, on brands, that this is something that consumers want. They want this transparency, and they want things to change when it comes to racial equality.

Le’Nise: And for all of you who are listening, we’ll put all of the links to the charter and the email template in the show notes. If listeners take one thing away from all of the brilliant things that you’ve shared with us today, what would you want that to be?

Sarah: I would say to everybody, think of your health literacy as a core skill of yours. And actually, we all have… As we’ve gotten older, and grown up, come out of school, had to learn about financial literacy, had to learn interpersonal skills, had to maneuver through the world, and often, just the way that society has been, we’ve neglected our health literacy.

My real passion project is to get people to think about that as a core skill of theirs in terms of… Especially if you’re very engaged with your health, it’s really important that you make informed decisions about your health, and that are right for you as a person. We see lots of trends and core things that go on in health and wellness, but the key is deciphering, is that right for you and what’s going to make your life better, and your health better? So I would say, look into your health literacy. We’re shortly going to have a test of how you can test your health literacy. So, either you can see where you are… And it gives you a gage on how you can think about that. So yeah, that is what I would say. Health literacy all the way.

Le’Nise: Brilliant. Thank you so much for coming on to the show, Sarah. Can you just tell the listeners the link to URL of WellSpoken Mark?

Sarah: Yeah. Absolutely. Our website is www.wearewellspoken.com. And on all social channels our name is WellSpoken Mark, so it’s the same across all platforms. You’ll find us most alive and kicking on Instagram.

Le’Nise: Brilliant. Thank you so much.

Period Story Podcast, Episode 23: Valentina Milanova, Imposter Syndrome Keep You Humble

Period Story Podcast, Episode 23, Valentina Milanova

On today’s episode of Period Story, I was so pleased to speak with Valentina Milanova, the founder of Daye, the women’s healthcare brand. We had a wide ranging discussion talking about period pain, the role of CBD and the endocannabinoid system, female entrepreneurship and of course, Valentina shared her own period story.

Valentina shared the story of getting her period at just 9 years old. Listen to hear why she hid her period for a year and what happened when she told her father.

The gender pain gap is a very real issue and Valentina talked about the debilitating cramps she used to experience, which caused her to miss school and have difficulty concentrating. 

Valentina talks about what inspired her to start her company, Daye. She says that the idea that menstruation could be made easier was always in the back of her mind. She came up with resistance but persevered, making the first tampons herself on a 3D printer and injecting the CBD extract with a syringe.

Valentina talks about the benefits of CBD and the effects it’s had on her period pain. She says it’s made a massive impact on her productivity and her happiness levels and says that she no longer dreads her period.

Finally, we had an interesting discussion about female entrepreneurship. Valentina says that you need to be comfortable making a fool of yourself and making mistakes. She says that imposter syndrome keeps you humble. I agree! 

Get in touch with Valentina:




Valentina’s educational background is in law and economics. She started her career in early-stage startup investing, before founding Daye. A year and a half after raising a seed round for Daye as a single person business, Valentina’s team set up production for their clinically validated naked & CBD tampons in South London. Daye is on a mission to raise the standards in women’s health, starting by bridging the gender pain gap with their first product. 









Le’Nise: On today’s episode we have Valentina Milanova. Valentina’s educational background is in Law and Economics. She started her career in early stage start-up investing before founding Daye. A year and a half after raising a seed round for Daye as a single person business, Valentina’s team set up production for their clinically validated naked and CBD tampons in South London. Daye is on a mission to raise the standard in women’s health, starting by bridging the gender pain gap with their first product. Welcome to the show.

Valentina: Thanks for having me. Super excited to be here.

Le’Nise: So, let’s start off by getting into the story of your first period. It’s the first question I ask all my guests. Can you share with us what happened?

Valentina: I had my first period when I was really young, so I didn’t know that what I was experiencing was menstruation. I assumed that I had contracted some kind of disease and I didn’t feel comfortable telling anyone around me. So, my first few periods felt very traumatic. They came out of nowhere and because I wasn’t anticipating them to be there every month, I would just lock myself in the bathroom and kind of agonise over what I perceived was my imminent death from this horrible disease that I had. And then I gradually learned what was happening to my body and what I was experiencing. And then I started navigating how to deal with my menstruation. So, I always had really painful periods, debilitating cramps where I would have to just lie in a hot tub or take a really hot shower to reduce the cramps. And I also had really heavy periods, which meant that most pads really didn’t do it for me in terms of absorbency. So, I would always kind of have my trousers stained when I was in school. I remember we had these white chairs in school, white plastic chairs that were just my nightmare because every day at school when I was menstruating, I was just so worried that I was going to stand up and find a little pond of my menstrual blood.

Le’Nise: How old were you when you got your first period?

Valentina: I was nine, I had my first period really early.

Le’Nise: Nine years old. Okay. So, you were in year five?

Valentina: I’m Bulgarian, so we have a different system.

Le’Nise: Oh, OK. So, you’re quite young. Who did you talk to when you thought you had a disease and it was really traumatic? Who did you turn to?

Valentina: I didn’t turn to anyone. I just was really worried that’s what I had was very, very shameful. It was about a year after I had my first period that I finally mustered the courage to go up to my father and just admit that there was something wrong with what I thought then, was something wrong with me. And he actually didn’t realise what was going on either. So, we ended up making a trip to the emergency clinic to see a doctor for this mysterious bleeding that I was experiencing.

Le’Nise: And when you went to the emergency clinic, what did they say?

Valentina: They laughed it off. They found it really funny. And they say, well, it’s just your period. It’s just your menstruation, I was like, what is menstruation? What does this mean? This is not helpful. I just felt very uncomfortable to ask any questions, but my father understood what that meant. And we went to the supermarket and we got a bunch of pads and he gave me the pads and kind of half-heartedly showed me how to use the pads and then I read the instructions on the box of the pads, and then it wasn’t until a few years later that my friends at school started having their periods. And I remember when I first found out that there was another girl in my class that also had a period that I was so happy and so relieved and I couldn’t wait to show her the ropes and talk to her about the different kinds of period care that I use and how to change your pad and things like that.

Le’Nise: So, for the first three, three or four years, you were on your own with a little bit of support from your father. And you mentioned the word shame, you were a bit ashamed about what was happening. Why did you feel like that?

Valentina: I guess it was a function of not knowing what was going on and naturally we associate our private organs and our physiology with shame when there’s something wrong. I guess that’s why I felt the shame, I didn’t have an educational experience at that point in time that made me feel extremely comfortable with my vulva, with my vagina. I didn’t know how to name these things. I didn’t understand how to look after myself properly. So, I guess that’s why I was experiencing shame.

Le’Nise: Were your periods painful from the very beginning?

Valentina: Yeah, I always had really debilitating cramps.

Le’Nise: And did that mean that you had to miss school or miss lessons?

Valentina: Yeah, frequently either miss school or just leave school when my periods would come, when I was at school. It was just very difficult to concentrate on anything that was not the pain. I think your first, if you have a painful period, your first few years of menstruation are the worst in terms of the intensity of the cramps. And I remember just laying in the bath or taking a really hot shower was the only thing that would help.

Le’Nise: And did you use any painkillers or were you too young?

Valentina: I think I was too young. I couldn’t access them myself, obviously, so I didn’t know where to find them.

Le’Nise: So, you were on your own in terms of your peer group. And then you found another girl who had got her period. Did things change as soon as your other friends started to get their periods?

Valentina: Yeah, by the time that my older school friends started getting their periods, I think I had like three or four years of being the only girl with her period. So, I had become more confident and become more aware of menstruation and what it meant and how to deal with it. So, I actually kind of turned it into the cool thing at school. After the second girl got her period, you know, we created this little group and then all of the other girls couldn’t wait to get their period so they could participate in the circle of conversations about menstruation. And we would kind of proudly walk down the school halls and we’d go and change our pads all at the same time in the bathrooms while there was another girl that was guarding the door. So, yeah, we made it into the cool thing at school.

Le’Nise: The periods became cool. OK. OK. That’s one way to kind of shift the idea of shame and to become more empowered by what was happening to your bodies. What was your education like at school? Having had the doctor at the emergency clinic tell you what was going on, did that education continue at school?

Valentina: I think the first time that I had a sexual and reproductive health education in any form was in biology class when I was 15. I may just not remember it, but I don’t have a recollection of in primary school, learning about menstruation, safe sex, etc. The school that I went to was actually very progressive, the primary school that I went to, we would call our teachers by their first names rather than by their last names or miss or mister. And we all kind of formed pretty close bonds and really close friendships with our professors and with our teachers but I don’t recall having a formal education. We did have Bible study, which at that time I found really interesting, but we didn’t have a formal sex ed class, that I can recall.

Le’Nise: So how were you learning about it?

Valentina: A lot of it was from books. So, the school that I went to was very encouraging of people reading. We would have these reading competitions where the coolest kid in school was the kid that could read over 90 words a minute and we had a large library and I read Lolita when I was in fourth grade, you know, I read a lot of books that I shouldn’t have read. And I learned about menstruation and I guess I learned my first sexual education from these books. And then obviously I discovered Internet and Internet forums and I remember these Internet forums in Bulgaria in the mid 2000s. People were just so confused, there was so much angst and so much worry and people were always worried they were pregnant. I remember this girl from my class came to me, crying in tears because she had had unprotected oral sex and she was convinced that she was pregnant. And that’s, you know, that was just a fact for her, and we didn’t know any better. So, we were like, oh, my God, commiserating with her on being pregnant. 

Le’Nise: It’s interesting because the Internet is supposed to be this democratising force in terms of access.

Valentina: It is a democratising force now, it just when I was growing up, we didn’t have a computer. It was difficult for me to access the Internet. And also, you have to remember that I was accessing the Bulgarian Internet, which is different from you know, Bulgarian forums are different from forums that are maybe a bit more progressive that you would maybe find in the UK and also the Internet now, like the quality information about sexual and menstrual health, you can find online now has no points of comparison to the information that I was finding when I was between 10 and 15. It’s very different internet to the UK.

Le’Nise: So, thinking about what you know now and thinking back to that girl who was looking on the Internet and, on these forums, and trying to find out information about what was going on with her body, information about sexual health. What would you tell that girl?

Valentina: Stick with it. It’s going to get easier. You’re going to learn the ropes and learn how to navigate menstruation and you’re going to come into your own and start feeling proud of who you are as a woman.

Le’Nise: What was the starting point where you realised you were having these heavy and painful periods? When did you realise that something had to change?

Valentina: Guess the thought was always in the back of my mind. This really strong belief that the way that people deal with their periods and the way we purchase period care products and how they perform is really subpar. When I became a teenager and when I started going to high school, my painful periods persisted. I started using Ibuprofen and Nurofen and all of the pink period anti-inflammatories that are actually the exact same formulation as the generic ones, but only five times more expensive. They never really removed my cramps; they just dulled the cramps. So, it was always this idea that menstruation could be made easier and looking after yourself when you’re on your period could be made nicer was always in the back of my mind.

Le’Nise: They could be made nicer. I think that’s an important message for that a lot of women would like to hear. So, you have this message in the back of your mind and now you have a company which helps women have nicer periods. Tell us about the journey from having the seed of a thought in your mind to starting up your company.

Valentina: I first had the idea for Daye when I was finishing an MBA type course in Bulgaria. It was an evening business education course. And in order to graduate, we had to come up with a business idea that would be socially impactful. So, I started researching northern Bulgaria, which is an area that has the highest rates of unemployment in Europe actually, has really high levels of sexual trafficking. So, I thought whatever business idea I could come up with that would somehow benefit this region in particular would be socially impactful for that reason, and I started researching the history of northern Bulgaria. Turns out northern Bulgaria used to be the number one producer and exporter of industrial hemp in the 40s and in the 30s before the communist government came in and took over. Northern Bulgaria had this industrial hemp research institute that was publishing a bunch of papers surrounding industrial hemp. And I just went, and I found these old papers and I realised through them that industrial hemp fibres are more absorbent than cotton and the extract from the flower can be analgesic. So, then I had this moment of just thinking, OK, so we know there is a plant that both makes more absorbent fibres and pain relieving extract then why aren’t we combining the two? That’s when I had the idea for Daye for our first product and I presented it to my MBA class. Everyone thought it was a very weird idea. No one wanted to talk about menstruation or talk about tampons. I think the most common argument that I heard was people just saying, well, if this was such a good idea, Procter and Gamble would have invented it already. But it really stuck with me, this concept of taking the pain away from periods, seeking the discomfort of, you know, constantly worrying about staining your underwear, staining your trousers with your menstrual blood.

I tried to produce the first tampons by myself initially at home. I 3D printed these moulds and I used a technique called needle punching in order to take the fibre and transform it into a tampon like shape and then I infused the edges of the tampons with CBD with the extract from the hemp flower using a syringe. I tried the tampons on myself first, they really worked on me and I have very painful periods and then I gave them to my friends to try. My friends tried them. They gave equally positive feedback. So that’s when I realised that there’s some merit to this idea beyond it just sounding good on paper and I started trying to produce my product and that made me realise that tampon manufacturing is very monopolised right now, it’s very complicated. It’s owned by a small number of people and there’s limited opportunities for innovation. So, no one was really interested in my pain-relieving tampon or in my more absorbent tampon. I got tons of negative feedback from the early manufacturing meetings that I had, but finally I was able to find a manufacturer whose daughters had really painful periods and they had tried my CBD tampon prototype and it had worked for them. So the manufacturer was incentivised to work with me and we were able to produce the first batch of tampons which we used for the first set of clinical trials too, because obviously they are such a sensitive product, more like a medical device so we need to be extremely careful with the validation that we’re doing. So, doing clinical validation was one of the early most important things.

So, the first tampons we made, they were shipped for the clinical trials. People had to self-install the CBD onto the tampon using a syringe because we didn’t have a machine then to apply the CBD to tampons automatically. And from the results of these initial clinical trials and from being able to secure IP, I was able to fundraise as a single person company. I raised the pre-seed round for Daye in September 2018 and then a few months later we closed a seed round with a San Francisco based investor called Koestler, they’re an amazing firm. They invest in a lot of scientifically backed IP based companies and I was able to slowly start growing a team and get more talent on board. So right now, where we are, is that we manufacture in South London in Bermondsey and we employ women who used to be in the prison and care systems as our production operators. We have just opened our subscription so it’s live for people to purchase as of a week ago. And we’re working on getting Daye with as many women as possible, we’re working on scaling our production.

Le’Nise: So, go back to what you were saying about the CBD as an analgesic. For women who aren’t familiar with CBD and what it can do, can you just walk them through why they would want to use a tampon with CBD in that?

Valentina: Yeah. So specifically, the kind of cannabinoids that we use. We use a pharmaceutical grade extract. The same one that is used in GW Pharmaceuticals drug for children’s epilepsy. And we use a significant dose and a significant concentration. So, we have a hundred milligrams of 30% CBD per tampon. And what that does is it allows us to deliver a potent dose of an anti-inflammatory agent to the area that’s cramping. So, we provide localised pain relief. We’ve developed the technology that allows us to atomise the CBD, so it stays on the surface of the tampon rather than permeating back inside. And by staying on the surface of the tampon the CBD interacts with the endocannabinoid system in the vaginal canal and it triggers something called the first pass uterine effect, which is a mechanism by which agents that are ingested through the vaginal mucosa are recycled in the pelvic organs, meaning the result that’s felt is much quicker than if you take a painkiller orally, because obviously then it has to go through digestive system, etc. And that’s the mechanism of action of Daye. We use high quality CBD that’s of a significant dose, it’s applied onto the tampon in a way that ensures that the active ingredient stays on the surface of the tampon and there it interacts with the endocannabinoid system which is known to modulate your response to pain, effectively the CBD tampon turns the volume down on your cramps.

Le’Nise: So, formulating this product, developing it, manufacturing it. How has it changed your period?

Valentina: I don’t suffer from periods cramps anymore, which is really important when I’m building my company. We don’t have 2-3 days a month. I don’t have the luxury to be able to stay in bed and take a bath and not be focused. And 2-3 days a month don’t sound like a lot when you say that, but it’s made such a massive impact on my productivity and just my happiness levels and I no longer dread my period. I’m no longer shakily anticipating the first PMS symptoms and the first spotting, thinking, oh, my God, what am I going to do now. So that’s been the biggest impact for me, being able to have levelled amounts of energy and in cognitive capacity throughout the month and not limited by my cycle.

Le’Nise: Going back to what you said, people might not think 2-3 days is a lot but if you look at that over a year, that’s almost a month a year, being debilitated by pain. So that’s quite significant. And when you look at it like that, I think it puts into context the amount of pain that women experience or people with periods experience and how it can really impact their lives.

So, someone who wants to try to the CBD tampons and what they really feel connected by your story and what the change that you’ve experiences in your period. How would they get a hold of the tampons?

Valentina: So, they’re available on our website right now, yourdaye.com and they’re available on subscription so you can purchase them once and then sync them with your cycle. So, you have them delivered automatically two or three days before your period is due.

Le’Nise: Ok, great. Your story is quite inspiring, you had a problem, you identified a solution, and then you rolled out a product that is quite innovative. There isn’t another CBD tampon in the UK market, is there?

Valentina: There isn’t another pain-relieving tampon globally, not just in the UK market, yeah.

Le’Nise: Right. OK. What would you say to women out there who hear your story? They’re quite inspired by it and they’re thinking, oh, well, you know, maybe I can develop something or maybe I can do something like this, or I have my own idea. The start-up space is notoriously male, it’s notoriously quite sexist. What would you say to these women who want to do something? Do you have any advice?

Valentina: I’d say it’s super exciting that we live in the times in which we live in right now because if there’s one thing to be learned from my stories that a young Eastern European woman who didn’t grow up with a lot and didn’t have a lot of connections can still approach these, on the surface, intimidating brand name investors. And tell a good story and make a good case for why women’s health deserves more investment and actually win that investment, so if there’s any women that are listening to this interview and they’re thinking, wow,  I really want to start my own company as well, I’d say go for it. There’s really nothing stopping you. This mentality was a thing that really convinced me to take out the initial credit cards that I had staked out in order to finance the company before we had venture capital resources. I just thought to myself, OK, what’s the worst that can happen? I lose my forty thousand pounds and then I just have to repay them by working in a regular job. I’ll always be able to find a regular job like even if it’s just washing dishes. How long will it take me? Will it take me 10 years to repay it? What’s the big deal? At least I will have tried, at least I will have learned new things.

Le’Nise: Yeah, definitely. I think that’s such an amazing attitude, at least you tried, you know, what’s the worst that can happen? I mean, it’s only money. And I’m not being glib when I say that. But, you know, there are definitely worse things, you know.

Valentina: And even if you take the conversation apart from the money domain. You need to be really comfortable as an entrepreneur in making a fool of yourself all the time. You need to have a really low ego. You need to constantly be proven wrong. You’re constantly put in these really awkward situations of complex interpersonal dynamics that you have to navigate because as you manage a team, as you manage a board, as you deal with your suppliers. And you just need to be very humble and very low ego and just be at ease in this comfort. Just know that there’s going to be a lot of discomfort, there’s going to be a lot of feeling inadequate and my imposter complex is as strong as it’s ever been. And that’s just part of the human experience, I guess, when you’re an entrepreneur. A lot of people are really worried about their reputation, they never take a risk because they’re worried about how it would look to the world if they make a mistake but at the end of the day everything blows over in 24 hours and you end up gaining more even if you make a massive mistake, then if you don’t do anything.

Le’Nise: I think that’s really interesting. Everything you’re saying is like, I definitely believe it myself, you have to make mistakes, you have to make a fool of yourself because what’s worse? Did the doing it and then making the mistake or not doing it and regretting it? Well, I want to go back to what you were saying about imposter syndrome. Is that something that you’ve experienced?

Valentina: Yeah, I experience imposter syndrome on a daily basis, and I think it’s a very healthy thing to experience because it keeps you humble, and it prevents you from drinking your own Kool-Aid. Something that really bothers me in start-ups and in entrepreneurship is it’s very easy to create this meet of the founder persona, of the superhuman founder who is always switched on, always right, somehow divinely anointed with a greater intelligence and a greater amount of courage than everyone else. And I think that’s just BS, that’s just absolute crap, that just does not exist, and it leads to people being unhappy and leads to people falling off pedestals. So I welcome my imposter syndrome when it comes knocking, it’s a reminder of I actually have no idea what I’m doing most of the time, I’m learning everything from scratch, I’ve never managed a team, I’ve never run clinical trials, I’ve never conducted regulatory approvals for a medical device company. But as long as I keep humble and I keep a low ego, I keep learning and I keep evolving and I keep moving from one point to the next. So, I’m friendly with my imposter syndrome now.

Le’Nise: Ok. I think that’s something that we can all learn from, not shying away it, from being friendly with it. What’s next for your company?

Valentina: Scale is next for our company. Expanding our production capability. So, we intend to continue working with a charity in the UK called Working Chance, which gives women that used to be part of the criminal and care systems a chance to gain fair, meaningful employment. So, as we scale our production, as we build more machines and expand to new factories, we want to remain in the UK and remain working with these women, giving and making an impact in our direct community apart from just making an impact on period pain as a whole. Why we would do that is to deliver the clinically validated CBD tampon to as many women that need it as possible.

Le’Nise: And so how do you feel about your period now?

Valentina: I’m happy when I have my period, I’m excited for it, I look forward to it. It reminds me of my womanhood, it reminds me of the things that my body could potentially do in the future. I’ve embraced my periods, obviously not having cramps helps. Another reason why I look forward to my period is because I’m the resident guinea pig for all of our tampons, new tampon formulations in new sizes, new shapes. So, whenever our design engineering team has come up with a new applicator or a new design, I’m always the first person to try them out. So that’s another reason why I look forward to my period, because I get to test the new things that we have cooking. 

Le’Nise: So that’s quite a shift going from you thinking that you had a disease and it being really traumatic to now looking forward to your period and embracing it. And do you think that’s a journey that’s available to anyone with a period, especially in people who have periods that are painful, that are really heavy?

Valentina: Yeah, I mean, I don’t want to underestimate anyone’s personal experience or anyone’s personal trauma, but from my experience. It’s been great for me personally to have this shift of mindset and have this shift of perception and be able to embrace my menstruation.

Le’Nise: Amazing. If listeners could take one thing away from this podcast episode in your journey, what would you want that to be?

Valentina: Without meaning to repeat myself, I think it’s just the awe of the world in which we live in today, because it’s very easy to get bogged down with all of the wrong that exists in the world right now. But I think we also sometimes seem to just remember to take a step back and just be in awe of the fact that we now live in a world where, you know, a 25 year old woman that comes from nothing, from a tiny country in Eastern Europe can start her own business and run her own business and make a social impact while also creating a profitable product and make an environmental impact while solving a real consumer pain point. So I think that the technologies that exist and have allowed us to exist in this society which we do right now and the environmental changes, in how we perceive women and in how we talk about female health, I think are really something to be proud of and something to be reminded of. So, I guess even though the world is a very hard, difficult place, there’s moments of wonder and there’s moments of awe and I would love for us to celebrate these moments more.

Le’Nise: Wonderful. Celebrate the moments of wonder and awe, I think that’s a message that everyone can get behind. Thank you so much for coming on to the show Valentina, where can listeners find out more about Daye. 

Valentina: On our website yourdaye.com.

Le’Nise: Great. Thanks.

Valentina: Thanks for having me.

Le’Nise: Thank you.

Period Story Podcast, Episode 22: Elaine dela Cruz, Start Having Uncomfortable Conversations

On today’s episode of Period Story podcast, I spoke with Elaine dela Cruz, the co-founder of Project 23, a culture and performance consultancy. Elaine and I had a great conversation about teaching her daughters about periods, how culture affected how she learnt about periods and sex and of course, her first period.

Elaine shares the memory of getting her period during a much anticipated family vacation and how she cringed at the way her mum and aunties were discussing it.

Elaine talks about how culture likely affected the way she learned about sex and period, saying that her family was not one to talk about these things. She says that she learned from this experience and it made her want to be more informed for the conversation with her daughters.

We talk about being laissez-faire about periods in your 20s, the change that can happen after childbirth and what happens when you ovulate.

Listen to hear what happens when Elaine decides to have the first conversation about periods with her daughters and why she had to have a re-do! She says these conversations made her more open about her period.

Elaine says it’s so important for us to have uncomfortable conversations and if we push the conversation and push through the discomfort, we’ll get to the other side and learn and connect in a different way. I completely agree!

Get in touch with Elaine:











Le’Nise: On today’s episode, we have Elaine dela Cruz. Elaine is the co-founder of Project 23, a culture and performance consultancy, passionate about people. After a successful career working in the media industry, she saw that there was room to do things better and was placed to do something about it. Started in 2018, Project 23 helps organisations to create an inclusive culture, in turn increasing employee happiness and ultimately resulting in better business performance. Their mission is to make the media industry a fairer, happier and more productive workplace. Elaine is an ICF accredited executive coach, consultant, speaker and trainer. She calls herself a positive disruptor wanting to actuate change for good. Elaine’s a proud single mum, a first generation born Filipino Londoner and a lover of music and eating. Welcome to the show.

Elaine: Thank you, Le’Nise. Thank you for having me. That makes me pretty established, doesn’t it? Makes me sound like I’ve done stuff.

Le’Nise: You have. So, let’s get into the question that I start each episode with. So, tell me the story of your first period.

Elaine: Yeah. As soon as you invited me, I did think, you’ve got a rack your brains and start thinking about the detail of my first period and I do wonder whether or not this relatively short story about my first period actually may be is saying something about the way that I am with periods in general and maybe my kind of experience with it. So, the detail that I have is pretty short and stubby, I would describe. I don’t even know how old I was, but I’m going to guess that I was probably about 12. I’m 41 so back then that was pretty much in between primary school or middle school, as we called it, even back then and high school. So, because obviously the years dropped in London back then as well. So, every summer, me and the family and our extended family here in London would get so, so excited about the prospect of going to Newbury, that inverted commas, Newbury. So the place called Newbury, for what we called Newbury was actually where my parent’s friends, she was a housekeeper for huge, huge like what I would describe as a mansion is probably like a stately home in this mansion that had a swimming pool, which was like the best thing ever. They had horses there, tennis courts, they had a big old house. And the family that she was the housekeeper for would obviously allow her every now and then to invite her friends and family over. So, for us, you know, all my friends’ parents, we didn’t have any family here, but that was our family. So, all the kids, every year we would go and that would probably be our annual holiday, actually. And we would get so excited. And I remember, I would count down the weeks, count down the weeks to it then, you know, the drive there and inevitably it’s, ‘are we there yet?’.

And one year, I was absolutely devastated because this was the year that I got my first period. So, my memory of it was sitting on the edge of the pool, paddling with my feet, watching all the kids go nutso in the pool and, you know, splashing everyone. And yeah, with a big bunch of kids, I think probably about 13, 14 kids of various ages. My families actually. And I just remember thinking, shit, well I probably wasn’t thinking shit, I was just kind of sulking. I wasn’t in the pool because I didn’t, I wasn’t allowed to and all I remember thinking was that, I guess, blood would just leak out into the pool like a movie or something. And as I’m sitting there and one of the aunts, in inverted commas, if you know you know, then she was kind of like, “Elaine, why don’t you get in the pool? Come and get in the pool?” And before I could say anything else, my mum just went, “Oh, no, she has her period, she has her period for the first time”, and then they started speaking in Tagalog, like the Filipino, like the native language between them, and I could just get the kind of bits and pieces of the fact that they were talking about me and the fact this is my first period. Oh, my God, that type of thing. Oh, really? Oh, she’s so big now. Oh, and I’m just sitting there like, oh, my God, this is cringe. And that was my memory. So, And I think it was the missing out is the feeling I have and people talking about it like it was this thing that you weren’t really supposed to talk about, and most definitely something that the women did. The women spoke about it, not the girls, but the women. And I yeah, I just remember my mum blurting it out and obviously, I’m sure lots of mums do that. But ‘mortificado’ is the word I will use for it. Yeah, that’s it, and there’s not really a before and an after that. I don’t remember, the experience, I don’t remember, you know, looking into my panties and seeing blood, I don’t remember sanitary towels, I don’t remember anything like that on that occasion, I just remember, I guess, that trauma piece, which I didn’t really recognise as trauma at the time, but maybe it was just absolute embarrassment. Yeah, that was my first period.

Le’Nise: And so how did you learn about what it actually was? So, you said you don’t really remember the actual event, but did you have conversations beforehand with maybe cousins or your mum about what was going to happen?

Elaine: Right, so this is the thing. So, you know, I think knowing that I’m going to talk about my first period and knowing that I have two daughters who are 12 and 11 and talking about periods and understanding about periods, obviously completely relevant and I need to know, I want to know, I’ve always wanted to know how to tell them. So, coming here, I was thinking, OK, what was it? I mean, maybe my memory, maybe I have holes in my memory that I don’t remember my mum telling me or my older sister. My older sister is five years older than me. But genuinely, I don’t have a single memory of my parents, my mum telling me, my older sister telling me.

I have a vague memory of secondary school. So, this is, I’ve already got my period of how to use tampons. I remember that lesson because it was in one of the huts, it was freezing, but not a single memory. I called my sister, I FaceTimed my sister, she lives in Toronto and I called her just a few days ago, “Jude, just thinking to double check with you, you know, did you ever tell me about my period?” She’s like, “I don’t think so, I don’t even remember who told me” and I think I was really curious to know that most people come and tell you that they have a clear memory of who told them, and they have this horrific story, or this joyous story, but I do wonder what, I did wonder to myself, what does it say that I think it never happened? I think the conversation in the household actually never happened, and maybe that was a cultural thing, maybe it was just not what my mum thought was necessary or maybe of an age, I don’t know, maybe of our generation. I’m not quite sure. I’d be really interested to hear what other people will say and what, you know, what you experience, the averages, if you like.

Le’Nise: I mean, it’s so different. I mean, some guests have talked about learning almost by osmosis, seeing kind of pads or tampons around the house, in the bathroom. Other people learned from school. One of my guests, she talked about how she learned from Jackie magazine. So, I think culture definitely plays into a lot of the conversations. And I just wonder, from a cultural perspective. Was there any conversation about sex? Or was that kind of something you learned by osmosis as well?

Elaine: Like I said earlier, I’m 41, I still haven’t had a conversation about sex like that. I think it’s cultural to a degree, but I also think it is, like many things it’s down to you know, it is about who my parents are as people, the generation that they grew up in. And definitely, I don’t know, maybe, they came from the Philippines in the early 70s. They were completely able to speak English. But maybe I don’t know, maybe there is a language barrier thing for them as well to talk about things that are much more uncomfortable. I think they definitely come from an era, a culture, a family where we don’t talk about certain things. We don’t talk about periods; we don’t talk about sex. We will talk a little bit about the things that you’re not supposed to do. So, you know, I had many one-way conversations about drugs, which were basically you don’t ever do drugs. And so, it was mentioned like that. But I think in general, they don’t have, I suppose the vocabulary, the capabilities to be able to talk about things as a whole piece. So, if we’re talking about periods, I think that my mum and dad, they both were hospital workers. My mum worked for the NHS for ages, she was haematology lab technician. My dad was a theatre technician, so he worked in operating theatres, both very, very practical and able to deal with the medical and physical things. But actually, obviously, when you talk about periods or sex, a huge part of it is also about emotion and how you deal with it, how you cope with it as a person and those things, I don’t think they have the vocabulary to be able to really express and I think that’s another reason why they kind of shied away or stepped away from it. And to be frank or to be honest, I don’t even know if they know that they stepped away from it. You and I, we grew up with Oprah Winfrey and Dr. Phil, and we’ve been given that vocabulary, right, you know, you’re not deep if you don’t have that kind of thing, which obviously I’m just joking but they just don’t know how. But also, I think there is 100% a part of it, which is, we don’t talk about periods because that’s periods and they’re private. You know, they are shut away, as we all know, that the society has made us do. They are things that we don’t talk about.

Le’Nise: So, having grown up with this, not really remembering how you learned about your period and how to deal with it. What have you taken from that experience and how are you now speaking to your daughters about what has come or is about to come for them?

Elaine: Yeah, great question. With all the parenting challenges and aspects that you have, so, you know, we all want to be amazing parents, right? I always loved this phrase when the kids were first really young, which is, I mean, this is so generalising here. So, everyone can hate me for this. But it just it meant something to me at the time. Mums, they want to be the best mums ever, the best mum ever, dads, they just wanna survive that shit. I thought it was just funny and I definitely experienced that as a mum. But I want to be the best mum I could possibly be. So, as I have got older, as I’ve got more informed, and that’s still a growth goal line for me now. Obviously, I want to be, I hate to say it, but I want to be a better parent than my parents were to me. And I don’t mean that in a disrespectful way. I mean that in a more informed, educated way and I take what they gave me as an essence, and I add onto it. So when it comes to what I’ve learned about my experiences with periods and how I can inform my girls, that’s just one example of that, where I can look back and I can see that, yeah, I didn’t have, not even the practical tools, because clearly I did. But it’s the empowerment that comes with being more informed about knowing about periods, the statement of the fact that it shouldn’t be in the background. Why does it have to be in the background? So that’s the part I want to bolt on. Yes, my mum never told me about how I should do it. But I think the bit that I really only got later that I want to put on them earlier from the beginning, is the feminist bit. Which is the bit about, you know, this is nothing to be ashamed of, this is everything to be proud of and actually the privilege that’s attached to having your period. Yes, I complain about it, but that’s a huge privilege. So, I suppose when I started to think about ok, I’ve got to tell my kids this at some point.

And I remember at the time my sister was on holiday here and her youngest, she has three girls and her youngest is the same age as my oldest. And at the time I think they’re about 10, she’s calm and then they’ve gone back to Canada, we’re face timing and I remember the subject of periods came up into our conversation as mums, and because her older two are that much older, like 10 years old, 8, 9 years older, Jessie, her youngest already knew about periods? That’s I was given. She was like “oh, yeah but, you know, I’m sure Jessie’s going to start puberty soon.” And I just thought, oh, shit, the kids aren’t babies anymore. And that was the moment I just thought, I need to start thinking about how I’m going to do this. And then what I did, obviously, like any first timer in the situation, I went to my friend Google and I was like, how do I do this? How do I check it out? So, I did that. I thought, OK, what’s the structure? I went very pragmatic, what’s the structure of this, how am I going to do this? And I kind of took what I wanted to take from it, which was the first one, I need to tell them about the physicality of it, the physical stuff, the human body stuff, the biology of it. And then the second thing was to talk to them about what you do about it, the resources, how you how you manage with that. And then the third one was, you know, the reality, the practicalities of it, if you like, because that was helpful to me, Google was helpful to me because I was gonna go in it with the science thinking that’s how it’s approachable for them. But actually, obviously, they would have a trillion questions about what does this stuff just leak down my leg or how does this work? So, I found that really helpful. But before I had that talk and I do have a funny story about that talk because I had it twice. I did think a lot about how I, like everything else, normalise things for them, that this is about periods just being something that is as every day as breathing or whatever else it is that we need to deal with or think about. 

Le’Nise: You took your experience and you want your daughters to have a different experience. And I think that’s really powerful because, you know, I really relate to what you’re saying about, you know, just trying to be a better parent than your parents. And I think that we have so much access to information now that we know so much more. And it’s easier to get informed about, oh, how should I potty train my child? How should I teach my child about periods? You know, it’s so easy to learn about whatever you need to learn about. But before you go onto this funny story that you have, I just want to ask you, so how did you eventually learn about your period? Was it reading magazines, do you actually have any memory of that?

Elaine: You know, I really genuinely don’t. I really, genuinely don’t. When you said earlier on some people talk about learning about it through osmosis. For me, when you said that, I thought, oh, yeah, that must be it. That’s all I’ve got, really, which isn’t the answer. It’s not the great anecdotal answer for you, but I don’t know, I was thinking about this last night, particularly, just thinking, I don’t know what that says, but I do think it might say something. Just the fact that it’s maybe, as much as I’m sitting here saying, you know, I want to teach my kids about the privileges to have periods and how strong and powerful we are as women. You know, it’s the absolute opposite of the fact that we have to hide this stuff and not talk about it. And I think that the experience that I have, or that lack of memory, I have nothing else but to think that it’s because it’s just not been a conversation in my life that I’ve had at what should be perhaps a profound moment. So, whether it was my mum and I don’t mean that as a disrespectful thing at all. But whether it’s a lack of conversation or my sister, who I was always close to and was definitely my big sister. At school, I don’t remember it happening really at school. The school thing I think must have happened, surely the conversation whether I remember it. But I think I would 100% know if I had the conversation with my girlfriends at the time. And I don’t that ever happened, I have no recollection of that. And I can’t you know, I think it was only until, you know, many, many, many years later where I think I might have had a conversation with my girlfriends about it actually, which I think is telling.

Le’Nise: Did you ever have any issues with your period? Did you have painful periods or any conditions where you may have kind of sought out some medical advice, if you would like to share?

Elaine: Yeah, no, not luckily, no. My experience with my periods was always a bit, I was always very laissez-faire about it. I did not keep track of when my periods were, I just would get caught out on the hop all the time. I never learnt, I mean, what a fool. I probably went through a time, probably like uni days, early uni days, early 20s, maybe when we first met, actually, I was a party girl. I was always out, and I was doing things I shouldn’t probably be doing. And I think that probably affected my period, too. So, I remember I would miss a period sometimes or I would be weeks late. And it would take me a while to notice, like an irresponsible while to notice and then it would come. And obviously in that period of time where you notice and you’re like, please, Lord, no, let my period come. In that time, you’d get a panic and then let her come. And actually, I put it down to the fact that I was partying so much I was having irregular sleep, I wasn’t looking after my body, I was having a ridiculously too good a time in that sense. And that was what was making my periods become very irregular.

Other than that, I noticed that I would hear or read, or someone would say that that period lasted seven days or eight days, and I would be like shit, mine lasted for like 4 days, 3 days, start to finish. And then I would think, well, I’m obviously pretty jammy here with this. And then I had kids in my late 20s and then after that, I noticed that my period was different. It did change everything. So, they were a lot more like clockwork. Although I still was very laissez-faire about it but I felt like they were much more clockwork and they were heavier. They were longer and heavier. And it was a bit like, goddamn why, you know, that kind of thing. And I would get cramps and PMT like I never did before. And actually, as I got older, I started to notice that I get PMT in a way that I’m pretty sure I didn’t before. Like clockwork, actually.

Le’Nise: And when you say PMT, what does that mean for you?

Elaine: To me, it means a frikkin mood. To me, it means, you know, it can be a mixture. It’s definitely mood based for me. And it can be either just feeling quite heavy like a dark, you know, just heavy in mood or most definitely a shorter temper. I wouldn’t say I’m irrationally so, but the fuse is so much shorter and it’s always four or five days before, rather than a day before, Two days before. I’m fiery as a person anyway, so, yeah, my pride gets in the way of warning people that it’s here or my boyfriend that it’s here. But, you know, and heaven forbid, if he was ever to bring it up with me and say, well, clearly, I probably would go to jail. But I know it’s happening after the effect, if you know what I mean. At the moment, in the moment, I just think I’m perfectly sane, thank you very much, do not criticise me, do not tell me I’m overemotional. And then maybe two days later, I’m like, oh, shit, I was a dragon. So, yeah, I guess that’s what it means, I turn into a bit of a dragon.

Le’Nise: Do you track your cycle?

Elaine: I started track my cycle only about three or four months ago, not long ago at all. I don’t know why I did it, it might have even been something as superficial as a frickin Instagram ad that got me. I used Flo and I only track it. I only wanted to track it because I just thought, OK, I’m a big grown woman now, I need to know what day this comes before it never comes again. And so, yeah, I do track it. And then as I’ve started to use the app, I started to track PMT and that’s pretty much it. I couldn’t even tell you what functionality there is in the app besides that. I remember having a quick look at like what other content there was that what other things are more I find useful. But I just thought nah, I don’t need that. Maybe I’m missing in a whole world of resource I don’t know about.

Le’Nise: What I say to my clients is you need to track it the best way for you. Some people, they love getting really into detail and they actually kind of journal on how they’re feeling each day. And some people, it’s literally the start of their period, end of their period. That’s me, actually, because I’m kind of in tune with how my body is. I track when it starts, when it finishes and then when I’m ovulating, I kind of notice that and that’s it. So, you just do what’s best for you. There’s so many different apps and options out there.

Elaine: Can I ask, how do you feel when you’re ovulating?

Le’Nise: So typically, that’s where you have the highest energy in your menstrual cycle. So, for me personally, I know when I’m ovulating because, and I really have to control this because I have like a manic energy and I want to overschedule. I try to do too much and it’s like, go, go, go, go, go. I know that I can, I have more energy to do workouts and I can do long runs, or I can do super long yoga sessions. And that’s because, you know, oestrogen is really high, testosterone really high. Obviously, libido is highest at that point. But there are also physical signs. So, you know, you have the cervical fluid, it changes, you notice that in your underwear, our temperature will increase as well. So, I think typically, women start to notice ovulation when they’re trying to get pregnant. But actually, it’s something that we should all be aware of because that’s actually where our menstrual cycle, I believe, focuses on ovulation rather than where everyone focuses on having a period.

Elaine: So true. As soon as you start saying that, I’m like, I have another date to mark in my app. I’m going to start tracking. I’m really curious to know if that’s how I feel when I’m ovulating, because I think that’s what it is. How do I feel when I’m ovulating? I want all the energy. I want to do something with it. And I’ll just steal from you and the fact that I just cap it, I know not to overextend, but I’m going to get back to you and tell you if happens to me as well.

Le’Nise: I want to go back to what you were saying about how you talk to your daughters about their period and what was their reaction to the conversation?

Elaine: Rewinding back to that moment when my sister was like, you know, you should tell them, I was a bit like, oh shit. It’s been the three of us in the house, I’ve been a single mum since my youngest, there’s only 13 months between them and since they were two and one. And so, it’s a very female house, obviously. And I have always tried to be a parent where I’ll just tell them the way it is, nothing is taboo or anyway. That’s how I tried. For all I know, I’m just a walking version of my mum. Whereas, you know, maybe I whisper the bad words or something, I try to be very open. So, you know, when they first, I don’t know, saw on TV, a gay couple, you know, how come they’re kissing? Because they’re gay, that’s it. Well, there’s a trans person, but he’s trans, that’s what it is, here’s the background. This is, you know, as much as I possibly can about the world, but for some reason, unbeknown to me, maybe because we’re just a product of our mums and dads. I never really told them about periods, like most mums, I could never go to the toilet without it being a party in the toilet, right. And they’re asking me about frickin homework or whatever in the toilet. But I would always lock the door when I had my period or when I was changing my tampons or whatever, maybe because when they were really young, I guess, exactly the opposite of what I’m trying to teach them, I just thought maybe it’s too much for them or whatever. But I found myself, you know, beyond their two or three years old to now they’re eight or nine and I still haven’t really said anything about it. The way that I would tell myself anyway, and I still think it’s fair is that they’ve got years to think about that shit. Like you can get away with that for now, don’t worry about it. I think I just wanted to maintain that for them. Innocence is the wrong word. For want of a better phrase. Just give them that kind of freedom and innocence.

Anyway, so now, you know, unlike most topics in my life with them, I don’t have any run up, I’ve got zero run up.  You know, I got scared. My sister was like, it could happen any day and I know some girl where it happened when their 9 and I’m like, oh, fuck. So, I know that at some point I’m going to sit them down. And we happened to be watching a TV show and I can’t remember what, but it was slightly adult. But I’ve always let them watch TV that’s a bit more mature, but comedy wise, particularly and something happened and there was a bit of banter on the TV and it was about sex. And I just found this moment, I thought, OK, this is the moment and it’s like 8:45, so it’s nearly bedtime as well and I learnt later that wasn’t a good time to have these conversations. And I just launch into this conversation and I start with the science of it all and they are engaged, they are on it and I was like, this is going well and I knew that that would be how I get in. You know, this is science. I’m proud to say that they’re both very bright girls and are very into school. I think I went slightly birds and bees first and then it gets to the point where I’m like, so if you don’t have a baby, then what happens is your uterus lining and then, you know, they’ll be blood, and I think I said it like that. Before this point, there’s questions, loads of questions and I’m like, you know, I’m a frickin great mum, this is going well.

And then, as I say, there’s blood and I’m like, yeah, it’s blood but it doesn’t hurt in the way that, you know, we think about blood when you get cut, it doesn’t mean that, there can’t be some pain. And then before I knew it, the old one, Mia, she is bawling. She is just crying. And I’m like, “you don’t have to cry, you don’t have to cry.” And I just had this, what I now know was pretty hard. You don’t have to just worry. And I’m like, “no, really, you really don’t need to cry, don’t worry about it, there’s nothing to be scared of” and she’s still crying and she said I don’t want to talk about it anymore, and I’m holding her there in this conversation. And then I have this moment where I’m like, I am the trauma, I am giving her the trauma now by keeping her in conversation when she is literally saying, I want to go upstairs. I want to go to bed. Right. I messed this conversation up so much in that moment that my daughter actually asked me to go to bed. So, I’ve gone okay, go upstairs.

And then Tiggy, she’s left and I’m like, OK, I start to carry on the conversation with the younger one and she’s like, “I want to go upstairs as well, I want to go upstairs as well.” The younger one definitely idolises but would never admit that she idolises the older one. So, I have this moment, she copies her, so I have this moment where I say, “you don’t have to do what Mia does, you can stay here, you will have this conversation with me, Tig.” She’s just a bit like, “no, I don’t want to.” I kind of push her. I’m like, “why do you want to?” And she just kind of blurts out and they’re like cats and dogs these two, and then she says, “because she’s my sister, I love her and I love her, I want to be with her.” I was just like, I was taken aback, and I was just like, OMG and I was like, “OK, go, go upstairs.” And then that was it, that was the conversation. I went into work the next day and I was like, “oh, my God, listen to what I did, this is how I messed it up” and it was just this funny anecdote where I was the trauma and it was all going so well and then I just held them in this space until I realised that, oh, no, you’ve got to let them go and then we left it at that.

And I think what that did was just served to break the ice for the time when we had the conversation after, which actually, I did in two parts. I did it separately. Neither of them had their periods yet but that conversation went that much better and it was broken down. It was all about let’s do it when you’re on your own, which is very rare, they’re always together. And I did it when my other daughter was at a sleepover. And it just gave us the space to do everything and she was then able to ask the questions, rather than it be the dynamic between the two of them, which is what that was. You know, that first conversation, they’re looking at each other and thinking, what are you thinking? What are you thinking? What are you feeling? Oh, my God. I want to go with you. Oh, my God, I love you. Which, you know, she has never said since by the way.

Le’Nise: So, having after having those conversations with your daughters, do you find that you’re more open now about when you have your period and how you’re feeling?

Elaine: Yeah, yeah, I definitely am. I still keep the door closed and actually sitting here, I’m thinking maybe I don’t need to do that anymore, but I think there are certain things that I want my own privacy for. I’m sitting here thinking it could be good education for them to see how you do things and perhaps when those moments come and they really need to be more practical, then I will be there. But actually, I don’t think everything I do has to be a lesson for them because I’m my own person. And so, you know, I don’t really want the door open when I’m changing my tampon or there’s certain things that I kind of think I want to reserve my privacy for. I haven’t actually said to them, I think I’m in a bad mood because my period. I tend to just say I’m in a bad mood if I’m in a bad mood. So, it’s not necessarily attached to that. And maybe that’s a conscious thing, I don’t know, I’ve learned as a parent, you know, you have to show them how you feel because we are a dynamic. If I’m telling you to go to bed because I’m tired, I know you’re not tired but it’s 9:30, it’s past your bedtime. But I know you’re not tired. But if I tell you, do you know what? I need you guys to go to bed. I know you might not be tired but it’s your bedtime, but I’m tired and I need my own time. I need you to go upstairs so I can have my own time because that makes me happier and then I can do what I need to do. So, I always try to address moods like that. I’m going to share it with you so that you know, because then it’s up to you to do something about that or not.

Le’Nise: It sounds like you have been more open and perhaps maybe things will continue to shift as they get older. I just want to shift a little bit towards your business and the work that you do to create inclusivity within media organisations. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Elaine: Yeah, of course. So, I had a good just under 20 years, maybe 18 years in the media industry, and I fell into it like a lot of people do, I think. And I was in the commercial side of things. I was selling advertising and running teams. And by the time I left the last organisation I was in, I was running a team of about, I don’t know, 30 odd people. And before that, maybe a team of the department of about 50 or so people. And I was the head of digital advertising. So, in there you’ve got different teams doing different things, not just salespeople, operations, client services, things like that. And what I started to realise was that, yes, I could still sell. Yes, I was a technical salesperson. And I still loved that part of the job getting out there. But actually, where I gathered all my energy from was the fact that we had a great culture, we had a great team culture within our team, which I almost felt, not in an arrogant way, our experience told us that people gravitate to our department. So, you know, people wanted to work for us. People were happy to work for us when we weren’t there. People, you know, they respected us. They enjoyed their time there. They learnt and there was a palpable energy that belonged to us and our identity. At the time I just thought that was what team was, that was definition of team. As I started to think about exiting the business and thinking about what to do next. I started to realise and see that not all teams operated like that. And not all teams put energy in to building a culture where we were all part of what made it really work and there was less hierarchy. Yes, I was the boss, but I need you, you’re the person I’m helping to deliver here and I’m just here to facilitate that. 

What I started to notice in my last couple of years working in media was that I had a growing feeling inside of me about the kind of unfairness of it all. I was a step away from the board and I was literally working for five white male middle class men who were on the board who had actually been working together for 15 years plus. I don’t think I ever was a woman to pull out the feminist card at all, not really. I would never think ‘ahh it’s because they’re white men and I’m a woman of colour’, I wouldn’t think that, I would think ‘this is what the frickin world is like and you need to work your ass off if you want to get up there. And you know what? You can’t complain about these people. You just have to be good enough to get a seat on there. This is the reality.’ And I was starting to get more and more into it and so I started to think, ‘actually, this is the reality, but it shouldn’t be like this, and there are people like me or others who literally can’t get in because actually it’s closed.’ And that just was growing inside me as a bit of resentment, actually. And then I started to realise, that’s not my problem, that’s not resentment, that’s just me observing.

So, what we did with Project 23 is we launched a company that a understood the value of culture when it comes to performance because if people are happy then funnily enough, they’ll do great work. But also, the lack of diversity and the lack of inclusion of that diversity within the media industry became the other thing. We are culture experts, but actually our passion is about building inclusive cultures and getting the value and the equity of diversity to be seen at CEO level. If we were an industry that’s been desperate for innovation for years and years and years and it’s the answer to so much, then how come we don’t realise that diversity is the answer, not the problem? So that’s what’s effectively what we do. We go around and we help organisations understand that this is an answer to some of their strategies, rather than something that the HR department has to do or the BAME Group on the side that is really passionate about this stuff. This should be part of your core corporate strategy.

Le’Nise: Amazing. I think it’s so needed, I know from my background in media, on a certain level it’s quite diverse and then as you get more senior, I know that as I got more senior in advertising / media, I would look around and I would think there’s no one really that looks like me. So, I love what you guys are doing, I think it’s really, really positive. I just want to round off the conversation by asking you, if listeners take one thing away from all the brilliant things that we’ve talked about. What would you want that to be?

Elaine:  It’s a great question. I think for me, like almost everything, it’s that, and this goes for some of the work that we do in the main, actually at its core, it is about talking about a topic and really listening to what comes back to you. You know, the fact that today we are in a world where I can be invited on to a podcast, which is just about periods, is incredible, it’s incredible. And I think the reason why it’s so important is because these conversations need to happen. So, I think if there’s one thing that I want everyone to consider is that you just have to start having the conversation to begin with. And if you’ve started already, then we can push the conversation a little bit more too. There tends to be for most of us, I think that tends to be a barrier that we tend to not go past. So, for me, it was you know, maybe it’s talking about moods with, you know, how you can get PMT, what that does with my kids I haven’t done it yet. So, push the conversation and if we want things to get better, then sometimes you’re going to feel slightly uncomfortable, but that’s OK and you can push through the discomfort. And when you push through the discomfort, you’re probably going to get to the other side and realise something or learn something or hear someone in a different way or be connected in a different way. So, yeah, have the conversation, push the conversation and ultimately listen.

Le’Nise: Brilliant. So where can listeners find out more about you and your company?

Elaine: Yeah. Thank you. So, we have a pretty basic website called www.project23works.com and it tells you everything that we do. In essence, though, what we try and do is say have a look at what we do, get inspired, get a gist of what we do but please just reach out to us. There’s two of us so myself and Gary Rayneau and we’re both on Twitter, we’re both on LinkedIn and you can find us Elaine dela Cruz and Gary Rayneau. We’re always open for people just to have a conversation with us, because actually, before you come up with a big strategy on any of this stuff, all we try and do is have more honest conversations out in the market, because often conversations particularly around diversity & inclusion can be overly sanitised. So, we try and promote honest conversations. So, reach out to us, ask those things and that’s usually where things start.

Le’Nise: Great. Thank you so much for coming on the show.

Elaine: Thank you so much. Thank you so much. And honestly, I think this is brilliant and what you’re doing is incredible. And, you know, I love seeing people that I’ve met years and years ago doing much better things than selling banners and buying banners.

Period Story Podcast, Episode 21: Katy Lindemann, I Really Wish I Had Paid More Attention To My Cycles When I Was Younger

On today’s episode of Period Story podcast, I’m very happy to share a very candid conversation with Katy Lindemann, the founder of Uber Barrens Club. Katy is a writer and patient advocate in addition to her day job as a digital strategist.

Katy shared her journey through infertility and pregnancy loss, what she learned about her body, her inspiration for Uber Barrens Club and of course, the story of her first period.

Katy talks about reading the fabulous Judy Bloom book, Are You There God? It’s Me, Margaret? as a period rite of passage. She also shares the moment at the school gate that prompted her mum to make sure she understood the birds and bees 😄

Katy says that she went on the pill because she wanted to control her period and talks about what prompted her to eventually come off the pill and get diagnosed with lean PCOS.

We had a very candid discussion about what this diagnosis meant for her fertility journey at the time, what happened next and why Katy wishes she had paid more attention to her menstrual cycles when she was younger.

Katy says that she started Uber Barrens Club because she only ever saw one narrative of infertility, after people have been successful. She says that she wanted to write a different story and take back the word barren, reclaim it and make this silent sisterhood more visible.

Katy says that you don’t have to do this alone. She believes we should reach out, read up, learn about our bodies and not be afraid to ask questions. I love that!

Get in touch with Katy:


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Katy Lindemann is a writer and patient advocate, in addition to her day job as a digital strategist. Following multiple rounds of IVF and two miscarriages, in 2017 she was told her body would never be able to sustain a pregnancy.

She now writes about infertility and pregnancy loss and advocates for better understanding of the patient perspective of fertility issues.



Le’Nise: On today’s episode, we have Katy Lindemann. Katy is a writer and patient advocate in addition to her day job as a digital strategist. Following multiple rounds of IVF and two miscarriages, in 2017 she was told her body would never be able to sustain a pregnancy. She now writes about infertility and pregnancy loss and advocates for better understanding of the patient perspective of fertility issues. Welcome to the show.

Katy: Hi. Thank you so much for having me. Great to be on.

Le’Nise: So, let’s start off with a question I ask everyone. Tell me the story of your first period.

Katy: I was 14. I was the, I was the girl who had, like, the flattest chest and, you know, at school where you could see everyone’s bra and I was the one who, like, thank God, Marks and Spencers made a crop top with a bra back. There was nothing going on. And my mum was 16 when she got her period. So, because I’m like identical to her in every way, I assumed, it was going to be then. And so, I remember at 14, there was some blood in there, I thought, oh, man, I might have caught myself or something like that. It just didn’t occur to me because in my mind, I was like, oh, it’s like 16 or something, I didn’t have boobs, so I was like, I wasn’t expecting it even though 14 is late. I just literally was like, ‘What’s happened?’ Then suddenly, like, it was just like … I was like, oh, maybe that’s a period. I was so stupid because anybody else, but because I just wasn’t expecting until like 16. It is so ridiculous. So that was it, it was just like, oh my God, that’s actually a period. I just felt really foolish.

Le’Nise: When you got it, what did you do next? Who did you talk to? 

Katy: Probably had a conversation with my mum. I thought probably needing a bra would come first and they still hadn’t turned up. I didn’t think I’d had any towels or anything in the house because I just don’t think, oh, maybe there was the one from school when the woman came around. Honestly, I can’t remember. And I think she was like, OK, well, we’ll buy some pads or something like that. So, I think maybe she went out to the chemist or something or maybe she had a panty liner or something and kind of did that. Honestly, I can’t remember. But it was fine, it was all very, you know, it was all very easy. And I remember reading, you know, it was the rite of passage, the Judy Bloom, you know, Are You There God? It’s Me, Margaret. And I do remember having a conversation I think was a few months later with my dad. And again, like, my period was so easy, which we will come on to, but having like some cramps, I was like, “This period thing is not all it’s cracked up to be”, he was like, “Yeah, sorry darling.”

Le’Nise: You spoke to your mum, it sounds like you had a really good conversation, it was very open. How did you learn about everything else surrounding periods?

Katy: Well, it was again, like it’s one of these things where I wish I had, like, more visible, you know, more salient memories. Again, I didn’t have anything traumatic or anything. I’m told by my mum, at primary school, that she was having some conversation at the school gate with some other mums and basically she said they were doing ‘the have you told them about the birds and the bees’ and Mum was like, “Yeah, I think I’m going to need to buy a book, I’ll get them a book or something.” And then basically, apparently, my mum quizzed me and then the next day she told them, “Don’t worry, Alex North has told them everything and it’s all correct.” We then obviously had the conversation and she explained and but again, it was one of those things that, you know, and then we, a few years later, there was the school talk. I remember very clearly having a conversation, I was having a sleepover at a friend’s house and I remember having a conversation. We were all chatting with her mum about periods or something and her mum was saying, “I never connected what the period had to do with the egg”. And we were like, “Yeah”, because you kind know there was the cycle thing. And again, you were like, OK, well then there’s bleeding and duh duh duh but I just never really paid attention. So now when I started going through fertility and suddenly it was like, well, what happened to your periods? I was like, well, I vaguely remember that I didn’t get them very often, but I couldn’t tell you, like, whether I ever had a regular period because I just didn’t pay attention to it. And of course, they say, you know, oh, it’s quite normal for them to be irregular. So, I didn’t pay attention except for the fact I think I think because they were so irregular, when I was in sixth form or whatever grade that is doing my A-levels, I was a loser, I wasn’t having sex at that point, but I decided I wanted to go on the pill because I wanted to control my periods because I was like, well, boys don’t have to deal with periods during their exams, so I don’t want to, I don’t want to have to deal with having cramps. So, I went on the pill because that way I could back to back and not have to deal with it. And the thing is, I had super easy periods, what I now know, and I guess that’s the other thing, is that you have no idea what a normal period is. So, when people go, are they heavier? No idea! Who knows what normal is? So, the honest answer is, I don’t remember very much, except that they were irregular, and I just didn’t really want to have to bother with them.

Le’Nise: After you went on the pill at 17, 18, did you kind of just put your period to one side and just think, OK, the pill was taking care of it?

Katy: I know I came off it because I went to college in Florida for a semester and my grandmother lived over there and kind of ‘Costa Geriatrica’, she and my grandfather had retired to South Florida, you know, median age 85. I think I’d mentioned something about that I hadn’t had a period for like six months or something and I wasn’t on the pill at this point. And she was like, “Oh, my God, you must see your mother’s gynaecologist.” I was like, “Well, why would my mum have a gynaecologist?” because obviously in the US, it seems like everyone has a specialist and my grandmother was like, “That’s ridiculous. What does she get her pap smears?” I was like, “The GP with everyone else.”

And then, of course, my period turned up at Thanksgiving. You know, when everything was shut, I was at my grandmothers who unsurprisingly didn’t have anything. I didn’t have anything with me because, again, I just didn’t really have them very often. I don’t think I carried pads with me or tampons. I don’t think it happened often enough for me to be like, oh, I might get caught short with my period. So, then I had to go driving around trying to find a drugstore that I could get tampons on Thanksgiving.

Le’Nise: Did your period start to normalise at any point?

Katy: I don’t think so. So again, it’s one of those things that, you know, I wish I had been more aware and tracked because the answer is, I don’t know. I know I was on and off the pill, you know, various points on and off throughout university. And basically then when I got together with my now husband, so pretty much all of my 20s until I came off to try and have my fertility checked out because I had always suspected there might be something not quite right down there, because I knew I’d never really had regular periods. I couldn’t remember how often or this, but I knew again, that kind of six months, my horrified grandmother just stuck in my mind. I know I didn’t have that thing of, oh I’m late, you know, there was no sense of that. So, I was on the pill for most of my 20s and as far as I was concerned that was great because I was like, well, why would anyone want to have a period if you don’t have to have a period? And, you know, the doctor was like, yeah, you can back to back, you know? So, I kind of, you know, I’d have one every couple of months, again, not a period, but a breakthrough bleed. And as far as I was concerned that was great. I was like, OK, why would I want to have a period? So, the answer is, I don’t think they were ever regular, but I couldn’t tell you how often, you know, until I came off to find out at 28 to find out what was going on because I just don’t remember. So, again, I wish, if I had my time machine, I wish I’d paid more attention.

Le’Nise: And when you came off the pill at 28, can you talk a little bit about your journey of coming off the pill?

Katy: I was very settled with my now husband. And, you know, it was that thing of becoming more aware of getting older and I knew we weren’t ready to start trying for children, but I knew that I was like, yeah, you know, we want this in our future. And I think I remember being on the tube or something and reading something about fertility MOT, which is the egg counting thing. And again, it was one of those things that egg freezing had started to be talked about. I didn’t really know what that involved, but essentially I was sort of becoming more aware that, you know, if we wanted children in our future and being the sort of person that likes to plan, I was like, you know, maybe there’s something going on because I knew I’d never had a monthly cycle when I wasn’t on the pill. So what I decided to do was come off the pill so that I could then, in my mind, it was so I could go and get the egg counting thing, you know, to find out, because my view was, OK, this might not tell you everything, but at least if there is a problem that we know about and we can maybe make a decision. I think I had a vague idea in my head, I was like, maybe I’ll ask about egg freezing. I didn’t know what it involved, I just thought maybe I’ll find out about it. And so, I came off the pill and about six months later when I still hadn’t had one. And again, they say, you know, it can be a few months, but at six months, I asked the GP and they said, yeah, it’s six months, it’s reasonable to do some blood tests. So, they did some blood tests and they said, oh, this might indicate PCOS, so we’ll send you for a scan. So, you know, I got the letter in the post saying, come to this place and they explained in the letter that, you know, we will do an abdominal and we’ll do an internal one. I go along and the sonographer does the abdominal scan and kind of wiggles it around and he goes, yeah, you know, again, I now know he was obviously counting follicles and went no you’re not PCO, so we don’t need to do internal scans. So, then I basically left going, well, if it’s not PCOS, why don’t I have periods? So basically, I think they just sort of said we’ll just wait and see, you know, essentially because it didn’t say there was a problem, they were just like, well, I’ll just wait and see.

And the thing with the fertility MOT is in order to have bloods done, because they do your base hormone levels and antral follicles count scan when they do egg counting, you have to have it done at day 3 of your cycle, or day 2-4. So, you have to call us when you’ve had a period and I was like, but the problem is I don’t have periods. Now, what I know now is that I could have easily asked for a small course of Norethisterone or Provera, which is a form of progestogen that would just induce a bleed. I didn’t know that at the time. And so, they were like, “OK, you have to wait for a period”, I was like, “but the reason I to come is because I don’t have periods.” So, it took 10 months between coming off and getting a period. Oh, yeah, and that was it, they said, “no, no, no, it has to be at least another one,” I was like it could be another 10 months! I do remember it was about another month or so, for all I know, that could be my first regular period, no idea. So, I go to the clinic and I have the blood. This is a private clinic so you pay for the egg counting thing and the nurse does the scan and immediately she does the internal transvaginal scan, and she goes, “I can’t see anything.” That was it. So, I looked immediately like I’d done some Googling before then going what could it be? And essentially Dr Google said you can’t really see anything through the abdominal scan. So, for lots of people didn’t show anything on the tummy scan, but then when they had a vaginal scan, it was like everywhere. And so immediately, as soon as she put the wand in, sometimes known affectionately by fertility patients as ‘Wanda’ or ‘dildo cam’, it had the classic PCO, so they have like a ring of pearls, there was just follicles everywhere. And she was like, well, that’s a polycystic ovary. And there’s a difference between polycystic ovaries and polycystic ovarian syndrome, which I know, you know, lots and lots of people have PCO, and that doesn’t mean you have any symptoms.

If your PCOS is where you have the syndrome and there’s three criteria that you need, you have to have clinical or biochemical signs of hyper androgenism. And so, my testosterone was fine, but I had acne. You need to have irregular or absent ovulation. Yes, 10 months, no periods and PCO on ultrasound. And you have to have two of those three and I had all three. And I remember when I then saw the consultant with the bloods and again that showed there’s another one, where it’s a balance of your FSH and LH which is supposed to be around the same but if you have LH which is through the roof, then that often is a sign of PCOS although it’s not in the diagnostic criteria. And he said, “I know what you’re going to tell me. He said, “I know you’re going to say, how can I be PCOS if I’m not fat and hairy?” Which I stress his words, not mine. And essentially what he said was that there is the typical phenotype with PCOS, which is associated with insulin resistance and obesity and often hirsutism, he said: lean PCOS is actually very common, but very often not diagnosed because it doesn’t exhibit the symptoms of classic PCOS. And then when I actually came to see a gynaecologist for fertility, he said, “Yeah, lean PCOS is actually a lot harder to treat from a fertility point of view because classic PCOS actually very often lose weight change of diet, very often that can restore ovulation and that’s much easier to treat.”

He said, “Yes, lean PCOS is still an endocrine disorder, it’s still associated with insulin and that you’re sensitive rather than resistant, but it’s a lot harder because you can’t just”, and there is no just about it because, you know, when you’re fighting against insulin resistance, trying to lose weight is hideous. But he said it’s a lot harder to treat. And then when it actually comes on to fertility treatment, Clomid, which is an ovulation induction drug. It’s just a simple tablet and it helps to try and kick your ovaries into gear. He said very often women with classic PCOS will often respond very well, very easy to treat. He said women with lean PCOS, are often Clomid resistant, they’re more likely to not respond to that. So, he said if women end up having IVF due to PCOS, it’s very often women with lean PCOS because they are more likely to not respond to the simpler treatments.

So, again, it’s this misconception that there’s only one type of PCOS. And they essentially, they said, look, you’ve got loads of eggs, from an egg reserve point of view, there’s no major issues there. But because we knew that I have PCOS, essentially it was well, the warehouse is fully stocked, but the merchandise doesn’t ship. So, we expected that I would need some kind of help, to help with ovulation induction. So, what that meant was I actually went to see a private gynaecologist. I actually went to see him because I got diagnosed with epilepsy not long after we got married and so I wanted to understand, they call it preconception counselling, you know. What would the pathway be? Because obviously the NHS won’t see you for anything fertility related until you’ve been trying for a year or six months, if you’re over 35. But as we knew, I could have gone ten months without a period. It was like, OK, well, let’s try and find, you know, if you’re not even in the game. And then things kind of went catastrophically wrong with my ovaries in various different ways, which we can happily talk about.

But I am not a typical story in terms of fertility. My gynaecologist, fertility consultant said and he’s an expert in PCOS, like he’s written textbooks and he said, “I’m stumped, and I’m not usually stumped.” And actually, it turns out that the reason I can’t have children is actually nothing to do with my eggs, it’s to do with my womb lining and my periods. So, it’s to do with the bleeding rather than the eggs. Various things happened with kind of my PCOS disappearing and then coming back, which again, no one has an answer for, but it turns out that the reason that I can’t get or stay pregnant is actually to do with my womb lining. So that’s the reason I really wish I had paid more attention to my cycles when I was younger. My periods were problematic in the sense that they didn’t happen very often, but we thought we had an answer for that because I had PCOS. Okay, fine. That’s an explanation. What happened when I came off the pill because we wanted to start to try and we’d expected to have issues to do with my ovulation. It turned out, I won’t even go to the egg saga because it’s long, boring and very complicated but essentially what transpired to be the problem is that my womb lining wouldn’t grow and more importantly, it wouldn’t shed. So even when we did manage to get it to grow. Obviously, what a period is, is your womb lining breaking down and shedding as a menstrual bleed. And the first half of a cycle, is your womb lining, getting really juicy and getting to a nice big snuggly mattress for an embryo to snuggle into. And then if you don’t get pregnant, then it’s the womb going, right, let’s clean out, refresh, let’s reset. So, it’s, you know, it’s cleansing, etc. Mine wouldn’t do that. And it never did this before. So, we don’t know what happened between, you know, when age 28 or, you know, any time before that. To them, when I came off the pill at 33 and all throughout when I’d been on the pill, I’d had normal light bleeds, but they were red bleeding. Then when I came off the pill, essentially that just stopped. I had brown spotting, there was no red bleeding. It was you know, I didn’t need a tampon, didn’t even need a pad.

And I’ve seen one of the world experts in womb lining, there’s a guy in Coventry who’s a professor. Most of the literature that’s been written on the role of womb lining in implantation and miscarriage has been written by this dude. It’s at the Tommy’s National Miscarriage Research Centre in Coventry. And, you know, he’s “Professor womb lining”. And he said to me when I went to see him, and this was kind of at the end of our fertility journey where we tried all sorts of experimental treatments. And he said, “Miss Lindemann”, he said, “you are without a doubt the weirdest case I have ever seen. He said most people that come through my door are medically boring, but you are anything but that, I have never seen what happens in your womb in humans, only in mice.”

And then I had these womb biopsies that they do for these tests. I wasn’t going there to have these tests because actually the problem was, I couldn’t get to an embryo transfer because my lining just wouldn’t grow. And I’d had various surgeries and we can touch on that. But essentially, even when they did these womb biopsies, which aren’t very pleasant, but essentially, they kind of go in with the equivalent of a hole punch into your uterus and kind of essentially punch out to get a sample of your womb lining. I think out of four different punch samples there literally wasn’t any usable tissue for the lab to even look at. Like it was just gunk that was there wasn’t womb lining there. I’ve spoken to doctors on both sides of the Atlantic. No one has a clue; they’ve never seen this before. So, I am not typical.

But essentially, I spent I mean, we spent a couple of years, you know, between IVF, just trying to get me to have a period, trying to get me to have a bleed. And it was really upsetting, too. And actually, after our first miscarriage, we still, you know, we couldn’t get me to have a bleed. I had two surgeries, but we still couldn’t get me to have a bleed, we could get my lining to grow and we did some egg collection. Even when we got my lining to grow and you could see there was this, you know, quite juicy looking lining on ultrasound. I was like, ‘well where does it go?’ All I got was this kind of black gunk. And we could see that it thinned on the ultrasound. How did we go from 11 millimetres to three millimetres without having had a bleed? So, whatever happened, it’s reabsorbed and compacted. And it was just so upsetting because, you know, it’s supposed to be cleansing and regeneration and we knew from my surgeon that I still had pregnancy tissue in there and so I just felt like my womb was this, like, toxic place where, you know, my baby, had died, it was a miscarriage. And so just not being able to see that healthy red bleeding. And I still don’t have that. It’s really upsetting. And so, again, I wish I had been more aware, and I know that there wasn’t anything weird or abnormal when I was younger but it’s a very strange feeling, particularly when you’re going through fertility and infertility, that most of the time you’re supposed to desperately hoping you won’t get a period and you’re trying for a baby and you’re desperately hoping when you’re pregnant, if you’re pregnant, not to bleed. And so, you kind of have ‘knickerwatch’ where you’re constantly checking to see if you’re bleeding. Mine was the reverse for most of my fertility treatment. We were just desperately trying to get me to have a period as in to have a bleed. So, I am not the typical. None of this, we think, is to do with my PCOS. That’s the thing is. Is that we don’t know. But there is no reason that what happened with my womb and my periods, as in my bleeds, is necessarily anything to do with PCOS, because PCOS is a very common endocrine disorder. And so, I am not typical.

Le’Nise: What would you have done differently if you could go back? And I know it’s easy to play they should have, would have, could have game. With all of the knowledge and all of the experts that you’ve spoken to, if you had a time machine and I know you used a time machine analogy before. What exactly would you have done differently?

Katy: Be aware of your cycles. Be aware of your body. I would probably have, again, knowing what I know now, said, get a copper coil, so non hormonal contraception and then if you’re really, you know, if there was a holiday or exams or something, you know, knowing what I know now, then you can delay your period or take it to make sure that you don’t get a period for those important times. And I would not go on hormonal contraception. I would have got a copper coil and tracked my periods and been aware of my fertile signs. And again, it was a clue when I came off the pill and started, you know, I had bought Taking Charge Of Your Fertility and started charting and following your cervical fluid. And that with ovulation sticks that I thought that wasn’t something quite right, because you’re supposed to get cervical fluid, that is an indication of oestrogen and I wasn’t getting that. And so, I was like, what’s going on with my oestrogen? I’m not getting these proper periods. And I was convinced from the start there was something wrong with my lining. And it turned out that that was right. But again, it’s putting the pieces of the puzzle, so I would say with my time machine, track your cycles and I would not have gone on hormonal contraception, but I would have been aware that it is still possible to use hormones, if there’s something important or a holiday, a short period of time that you can control your menstruation in that way. So, yes, that’s what if I had a time machine that I would have done.

Le’Nise: Has your experience changed your view on hormonal contraception?

Katy: I think for me personally, yes, because my issues are so strange. What I would again say, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with it. And again, I think, you know, the Mirena is a wonderful thing and particularly for women that have heavy periods or endometriosis, because, again, in my writing and the stuff that I do now with fertility and my consultant was an endometriosis surgeon, he wrote the text books and endometriosis and fibroids are debilitating. And so, for many women, using hormonal contraception can be life changing. So, I’m not anti-hormones. What I would say is, to anyone who’s thinking about getting pregnant, if you are on hormonal contraception, come off well before you want to start trying. And particularly if you’ve got the Depo Provera, because that particularly can take up to a year that’s a lot longer, the washout time. So, I would say to anybody, if you’re thinking about wanting to start trying, come off hormonal contraception well before you want to start trying and track your cycles.

Le’Nise: What would you say is your feeling towards your period now?

Katy: It’s a horrific reminder of what my body can’t do. I mean, my cycles vary. I do have cycles of some kind. So, anything between like 35 – 70, but it may be about 40, 50 days. But I still don’t bleed. When I was doing my fertility treatment, I started using a menstrual cup because it was really important. And again, this is the other thing is saying take track of what your bleeds are like. And I was talking to somebody yesterday who’s had Asherman’s syndrome and that’s a problem that can happen, very unlikely but can happen post D&C surgical management and miscarriage or caesarean section. Notice what your bleeds are like, how much spotting is there? How much red bleeding? How many days? How many pads or tampons do you go through? Pay attention to that. And for me, it’s really upsetting because it’s still this horrible gunk. I had a copper coil put in after we finished treatment. Copper coils are used in the treatment of Asherman’s syndrome, which is to do with when you’ve got scarring in the womb. I don’t have that. But essentially, if you have problems with thin womb lining it is part of the treatment, ironically part of the fertility treatment, having a copper coil because the copper generates an inflammatory reaction in the endometrium and so it can essentially cause the lining to get thicker, which is why women who do have a copper coil very often will have heavier bleeds. I had one put back in after I’d had finished treatment for two reasons. One was that we needed to draw a line under the hope of wondering would we be that unicorn couple who had sex and oh, my God, you know, after all the failed IVF, and oh, my God, they’re pregnant. I couldn’t live in that permanent limbo. But the main reason was to do with in the hope that at least it would make my periods a bit more like a period than literally, I mean, I’m going to be completely TMI, if I didn’t know it was a period, I would have thought that it come from the other hole, like brown. It’s distressing because it is a reminder of how my body’s broken.

Le’Nise: You said some of your cycles are 50, 70 days long so every time you have a period, you have this reminder. And so, what have you done to give yourself the emotional tools to deal with that reminder?

Katy: When we reached the end of the fertility journey with my body, we tried all of these crazy experimental treatments, I used Viagra, we used blood thinners, I used a drug that’s used for chemo where we had intrauterine infusions squirted into my womb, all these kind of, you know, lots of supplements that are supposed to help with uterine blood flow. You name it, we tried it and none of that worked. Having lining problems is unusual. But when it was very clear that we were on the road to nowhere and we couldn’t even get off the starting block. And then when I went to see “Professor womb lining”, it was after that I decided I wanted to try and, there’s a bit of a sense of going when you can’t have children, or at least with my body, of going, I feel like, well, what’s my legacy? And you get quite existential about it or can do with infertility. I am not for one moment saying that having a life without children, albeit whether its childless not by choice or childfree, is in no way inferior. I am not saying that at all. I’m talking about my personal feelings, about how I felt about my body and my own journey.

Essentially, it came from a place of being p-d off that I only ever saw one narrative of infertility, the only narrative that we see when people do talk about it, is after they’ve been successful, particularly in public discourse in the media, if anything, you see a story about, you know, somebody talking about their IVF struggle, their infertility struggle or I had X number of miscarriages, it always ends with the miracle baby. Or they say, oh, we had this problem after they go and they announced the successful pregnancy and actually it’s very sanitised, the narrative is always stay strong, you’ll get there, it’ll be worth it when you have your baby in your arms, don’t give up hope.

And actually, that wasn’t how I felt. And that wasn’t how so many women that I got to know through these kind of infertility communities online, you know, these kind of secret Facebook groups and online forums and so on. You know, it was difficult and messy. And, you know, physically, emotionally, you know, we didn’t feel positive. And particularly when you’re in that situation and the only way out that is presented to you and you’re in the pit of depression, anxiety, you know, suicidal ideation is not uncommon with infertility and pregnancy loss. The only way out that is presented to you is having a baby, when you’re there going well, what happens if we don’t? Am I going to feel like it’s forever? And there aren’t many role models for actually the people who come through the other side who weren’t successful with that fertility journey, but also just acknowledgement that, you know, it’s desperately unfair, utterly unrelenting and really hard.

And so, I was fed up with the fact that in order to kind of have these conversations with other women about what it was really like, you know, you have to go looking for them. I would not have got through my journey if it was not the incredible system, solidarity and support of all the incredible women I’ve had the privilege to get to know through online communities. But it’s this hidden world because you have to go looking for it. And also, you have to find your people. You know, there are plenty of people who were hope and rainbows, and that’s great but that wasn’t where I was. So, I came from actually just being annoyed and frustrated at there only being one narrative. So, I decided that I was going to try and write about what it’s really like or at least the experience that I knew and experience that I knew a lot of other women that I got to know and had spoken to. And so, I decided to start writing a blog and I had a thought that I wanted to try and write a book because, again, the only other books always ended with the miracle baby. And that has been incredibly healing. And it’s actually taken me on this incredible journey of broadcasting and being in a film and, you know, going on radio and meeting so many people. And that has been what’s helped me emotionally, is being able to find my voice. That’s been what’s very long and convoluted answer to your question.

Le’Nise: No, it’s wonderful. And that actually leads into the next question. So, your blog is called and the organisation. Is it an organisation, the Uber Barrens Club?

Katy: So, I talk about infertility or, you know, anyone experiencing fertility problems. And I use that as shorthand including pregnancy loss. Anything about not being able to conceive or carry a baby to term. So that includes infertility, primary or secondary miscarriage, ectopic pregnancy, molar pregnancy, late miscarriage, stillbirth, anything that’s wanting to have a baby and not being able to. It’s a club that no one wants to join. But as with so many things, when you speak to other members of that same club, there is an instant understanding and a sisterhood that you have a common understanding and there’s a language and a shorthand and a vocabulary that need not be explained. And it’s just that, oh, it’s not just me, oh, you get it. And actually, the kind of the barren, barren is a hideous word, it’s been used throughout history as a slur, you know, incredibly derogatory, you know, devoid, lacking, inferior, dried up, you know, it’s an awful word, but actually it came as a sort of label. It was actually, ironically, on Mumsnet, you know, the largest parenting forum for infertility boards. And we jokingly, some of us kind of more irreverent, once jokingly referred to it as the Barren Ghetto, because we were like, well, that’s where the barren women go. How do you drain a slur of its power? You know, we’ve seen this so many different, you know, language, whether it’s dyke, queer, you know, you know, if you can reappropriate oppressive language and reclaim it, you can drain a slur of its power. And so, we kind of jokingly referred to ourselves as the barrens and the uber barrens saying we’re not just infertile, we’re really, really infertile. Now that happened to be on, you know, a thread on the forum.

But it isn’t a club or a community to me, it is anybody who has you know, we are a silent sisterhood, we are a sorority, there is 1 in 6 or 1 in 7 depending on the statistics you look at, couples experiences, trouble conceiving, 1 in 4 pregnancies ends in miscarriage. We are a very large sisterhood, but we’re also a silent sorority. Yes, I have Instagram and I’m involved in lots of different communities, but it’s not my club. To me, it’s a way of talking about the fact that you are not alone. So, it’s not my club, but it’s sort of my handle that I use for my blog, potentially the book that I’m hoping to write and anything I talk about. So, it’s not just about me, I am not Uber Barrens Club, anybody who has experienced fertility or problems, you are not alone, it’s a club that no one wants to join. Membership of our club is defined by exclusion from the club that we want to join, which is the parents club. And it’s a club that no one wants to join, but it means the world when you know you’re not alone. So that’s why I kind of use that as, I guess it’s not just a metaphor and that’s the kind of name I have but it’s really trying to hold space for a conversation. 

Le’Nise: And so, tell us about a little bit more about the book you said you’re hoping to write.

Katy: So as I mentioned before, I just got frustrated that there’s lots of books about the beginning of the journey, that are about how to get pregnant or about your fertility, you know, practical guides, and, you know, there’s a couple of memoirs. Apart from a couple, the vast majority end with the miracle baby. And as I said, that there was a narrative that I knew with these online communities and the experience that I knew that I didn’t see reflected, was it was messy. And it wasn’t that I was ashamed being infertile, I was ashamed of all the feelings that came with it. And, you know, the guilt, the grief, the desperation, all that crazy, nasty things that you feel and that you think and the jealousy and what it does to your identity.

What I got from the online communities, you know, I have this incredible support, but you have to go looking for it. So, I wanted to try and kind of make the invisible visible and go well, how can I raise women’s voices to have a different conversation? So, I thought, well, that’s the book I would have wanted to read. I didn’t know if anyone else wants to read it, I thought they probably would. I knew women would pull their hearts out on forums and in anonymous communities and on Instagram and so on. So, I put up a website and I put up a survey to see whether those kinds of women would share. And this isn’t about your journey in terms of the practicalities or how many cycles did you do? Or how many losses? It’s about the emotions, because that’s the thing that binds us. That’s the thing that is a club, is that it doesn’t matter whether your journey is long or short, successful, not successful, it’s not about identities, there are emotions that bind us that we will all have experienced in one form or another. So, I put up a survey to see whether people would be willing. And I was amazed at the amount of responses that came in. And, you know, I asked in the survey, would you want to read a book like this? And again, so many people said yes, because I would have felt less alone, I would have known that the feelings that I have are normal. So that was the thing, my sort of three goals that I would like is one to, you know, help people know that they’re not alone. Two, to try to normalise and validate that whatever you are feeling, however weird or uncomfortable, somebody else has felt that too. And then the third thing is to actually help them to know that not every story ends with a baby, the sense of you’ll get there might not mean but me a baby, but you will get there and you will be okay whatever happens. So, I’m now trying put together and assemble that into something resembling a book. I’m now writing about it. I’ve written in The Guardian and it’s just taken on a life of its own and it’s very healing.

Le’Nise: That’s a really nice message. You will be OK, no matter what happens. And I think that’s you know; you mention the kind of hope and flowers and rainbows of the fertility community. And I think this more realistic message with a dose of realism is really nice for people who just don’t really vibe with that kind of uber positive message.

Katy: Everyone is different. And that’s fine. That’s the thing. There is no right or wrong way to do this. There is no right or wrong way and so I’m not doing that down at all. But that wasn’t where I was and it can feel very oppressive, especially when you’re told, just relax, think positive. No. Stress relief is not going to get you pregnant and it’s not preventing you from getting pregnant. Infertility causes the stress; stress does not cause infertility. In times of acute stress that might affect your ovulation but when you look at the fecundity rates of conflict zones and famine zones, women still have babies, you know. So, it’s okay, you’re allowed to feel the feels.

Le’Nise: How can women get in touch with you or men?

Katy: Yeah. Men are so important. Men are so often forgotten. And the thing is it takes at least two people to make a baby, sometimes more depending on donor, or conception or surrogacy. You can find me at uberbarrens.club. I’m on Twitter and Instagram @uberbarrensclub and you can email me at Katy@uberbarrens.club. And if you go to the website, there is a survey, you just find the share button at the top, so it’s uberbarrens.club/share, there’s a survey there for both women and men. It’s in sections, you can save each section as you go along. Lots of people have recommended saying if you do want to take part, it’s quite helpful to write your answers offline and copy and paste them in because then you can kind of come back to stuff and don’t worry if your browser crashes. I really want to hear from anybody wherever they are in their journey, whether they’ve been successful or not. There is actually a section about pregnancy and parenting. Primary or secondary miscarriage. Anything that has experienced or has experienced or wherever you are successful or not. I would love to hear from you.

Le’Nise: Ok, well, one last thing you would want listeners to take away with them. If you could distill all of the amazing pearls of wisdom you’ve shared, what would that one thing be?

Katy: Reach out so, you know, reach out, read up, learn about your own body, reach out. Don’t be afraid to ask questions. Reach out to other people. You are not alone. You know, if I had said in one sentence, you don’t have to do this alone.

Le’Nise: Wonderful. Thank you so much for coming on to the show, Katy.

Katy: Thank you so much for having me.

Period Story Podcast, Episode 20: Estelle Bingham, Choose To Listen To Yourself, Gently and Lovingly

On today’s episode of Period Story podcast, I had the pleasure of sharing a wonderful conversation I had with Estelle Bingham last week. Estelle is a healer and psychic, as well as a former travel presenter for Lonely Planet.

Estelle and I had a wonderful conversation (her words gave me chills at one point!) about intuition, the importance of boundaries, what manifestation actually is, connecting with the cycles of the moon and of course, the story of Estelle’s first period.

Estelle says that she was very excited for her first period. She talks about the two truths that many of us continue to hold about menstruation: the internal excitement of being part of something bigger and general negativity that society gives menstruation, calling it ‘the curse’.

Estelle says it’s so important that we understand our menstrual cycle so that we can recognise and listen to the internal workings of who we are. She says this part of us gets really demonised and that we need to be kind and find a way to come back to ourselves.

Estelle talked about her experience as a travel presenter and how she felt her period never got into the way or held her back when she was doing things like trekking up K2, climbing down the Karijini Gorges in Australia or speaking to Kenyan tribes. She says it was really empowering not to feel like she had to worry about her period.

Listen to hear Estelle talk about how to notice the connection between our menstrual cycle and the moon cycle. She says that we start to notice how we can feel during full moons and where we’re at in our menstrual cycle. She talks about the effects last Thursday’s super moon in Scorpio may have had on some of us.

I asked Estelle about manifestation, this word I see thrown around a lot and she broke it down in a practical way, saying that you can put things out there, but you also have to show up to those things everyday and do the work.

Estelle says that we should choose to listen to ourselves, gently and lovingly so that we are able to love ourselves more and come home to ourselves. I love that!

Get in touch with Estelle:










Estelle Bingham has been supporting others to find more Love, Purpose and Connection in their lives for over 15 years. 

Fourth generation psychic and meditating from 6 years old, the journey of the soul has been an integral part of her life since the very beginning. She is committed to helping others heal, express truth and embrace and embody their true joy and potential. 

Estelle works with clients internationally, at The Bamford Hay Barn and at Body and Soul Charity. At Body and Soul Estelle inspires and motivates young people from adverse backgrounds to dare to dream. Estelle leads the Love, Purpose and Connection retreats that have become a space for long-lasting healing transformation and manifestation.



Le’Nise: On today’s episode, we have Estelle Bingham. Estelle is a fourth generation psychic and has been meditating from six years old, so the journey of the soul has been an integral part of her life since the very beginning. She is committed to helping others heal, express truth and embrace and embody their true joy and potential. Welcome to the show.

Estelle: Oh, thank you. Le’Nise. Very excited to be here finally.

Le’Nise: Yeah, happy to have you. So let’s get into the story of your first period. Can you share with us what happened?

Estelle: Yeah, I saw I had a think about this. I’ve been thinking about this all week actually. And but I do remember my first period because I was one of the last people, one of the last girls in my group of friends to get my period, everyone started getting their period quite early at school. And this was the 80s and so they were like 11 – 12 and it was this, it was this moment within our group, it was a sort of that real coming of age, like it’s some, it was quite exciting, you know, like, you’re going to get your period, you’re gonna get your first bra. And I was like hanging around, hanging around, you know, what’s going on. And I got my period at 14. And, and it was actually, I was looking forward to that. So I remember, I remember getting my period and actually kind of being really quite happy about it. And so it was that was quite a positive experience. Yeah.

Le’Nise: Why were you so happy about it?

Estelle: I felt that, you know, it was I was joining the ranks, you know, joining the kind of beat to sort of that, that that moment in our teenage lives where all the sort of preteen and then teenage and, you know, that desire to grow into the young woman and getting a period was, you know, I was very, also very flat chested, and I and I still I wanted to kind of do this thing where I went from, you know, little girl to as like, oh, I want to do, I want to step up now, not that I wasn’t quite sure what that was, you know what it meant, but in the sense of what that would lead to, but just the the idea of growing and, and sort of becoming I was I was really, I was really up for that.

Le’Nise: And when you got your period, was it everything that you thought it was going to be in your kind of previous excitement and imagining of the future?

Estelle: Yeah, I mean, I grew up in a in a sort of, you know, I grew up in a single family with my mom, and, you know, my mom is the, is the reason why, you know, she was it was quite a liberal household. She was a bit of a, definitely a bit of a hippie, but in the sense of, she was a very strong woman. And the period story was a positive one, you know, you know, it was not something that was, though it wasn’t shunned, it was it was talked about. But in wider society, you know, there was this kind of strange split between this excitement, this internal excitement with your friends with your girlfriends, and then the wider experience of the period, which was that it was something, you know, it was at that time it was talked about, you probably heard about this, but it was the curse, you know, or ‘Oh my god, it’s that time of the month.’ So we kind of met it with these two truths. You know, like, one of them was like, oh excitement and the other one was like, ‘Oh my God, I’ve got my period again.’ And it was all like a kind of, it was a story. And there was a thing about Games and you’d be off Games a lot. I quite enjoyed that. But you would be off Games, if you had your period and you could, you know, you could kind of pull a sickie and stuff like that.

But, you know, definitely we’ve held that, we hold that as as young women emerging. We hold these two truths that are that are actually confusing. They are confusing and they, they it’s it’s sort of subconscious confused messaging that we don’t process at the time, but we hold it as we are emerging into our, you know blossoming we, we hold these two truths. So, so one of them is actually to not like who you are. And one of them is kind of quite exciting, but it’s a push pull experience from the beginning.

Le’Nise: What do you think it takes to reconcile those two truths and move away from that push pull of menstruation?

Estelle: Well, what I’m loving at the moment is is a sort of, especially in my work, and what I’m seeing is the sort of with the millennial, millennials or a lot of young people and a lot of interest in wellness, a lot of interest in, you know, that leads to mindfulness that leads to an interest in crystals at least to an interest in you know, the phases of the moon, but ultimately what’s happening there is that there is a, an interest growing for who we are inside and to begin to really tap into that truth. And so for me, it’s about reconnecting to the sacredness of life. And really remembering that we are actually sacred and the menstruation is part of who we are, and it’s a beautiful part of who we are.

And, you know, in, in ancient cultures, and I mean, especially the in the Native American culture. When women menstruated you know, they would have a moon lodge, they would gather they would have a mission, they could take time to rest, to nourish and to dream. And that time, you know, whether it’s three days, two days, seven days is a time to come back to yourself. And it’s just about that, really, it’s just about these, these moments in time, these moments in our days, these moments in our cycles, these moments in the month, where we recognise and listen to the internal workings of who we are, and actually just honour them. So when we are feeling a bit grumpy, a bit moody, a bit emotional, we are emotional, right? Because it’s, it’s, it’s our body telling us I want to rest I need to take some time, I’m, I’m in the process of breaking down so that I can grow again. And that’s really remembering a cycle of what’s happening internally and honouring that cycle.

Le’Nise: What would you say to a woman who say, I don’t have time to honour this cycle? I don’t have time to slow down?

Estelle: Well, one of the things that, you know, I suppose be to not be time specific, but there’s this time that we’re in now, which is this pandemic. You know, this is one of the big lessons at this time. Is, is it showing us about, it’s teaching us about the silence, it’s separating us so profoundly, you know, it’s putting us in the cave. It’s putting us in a hermetic cave, like, we’re all hermits, right? So, but we’re not meant to live like that. But it does teach us something about slowing down. Okay. And I understand that story of, you know, I don’t have time because, you know, it’s something that we have to work on.

Every day, we have to come back to ourselves and remind ourselves, I mean, that’s what meditation is about, right? It’s like, you take five minutes of just being mindful, just for five minutes out of that all of those hours of the day, to just come back to yourself, and I would say, you know, it is tricky. It is tricky. We don’t have moon lodges, and we don’t have time to sit in them. And, but but we can listen, and we can listen, even, we can take time to listen. And even if it’s for five minutes, it’s to listen and not punish, you know.

Often what happens is that, that that part of us gets really demonised or, you know, like, oh, you’re really moody or you’re getting your period, or you’re really grouchy, or you’re this, you’re that and it’s like, because, actually, yes, we are because we’re tired, you know, and from a sort of alternative health perspective, so working as it and also, you know, working energetically and as I do, the, the period or period time is powerful time to show us what happening internally, you know, it’s very raw time because if you’re having real cramps or it’s really heavy or, you know, it’s your body’s showing you something, so I feel be kind, you know, it’s, it’s about being kind and gentle and softening. And we can always find time just for a few moments, every day like, have your period just come back to yourself and be kind.

Le’Nise: Everything you’re saying I completely agree with and what I’m seeing now is a lot of women taking the time to slow down and actually know we know that we need to listen to our bodies, but often we push those signs aside, and taking this time to slow down and actually tuning into, ‘Okay, actually, my body has been pinging the signs to me was just a long time but I haven’t listened’ and it’s there now saying okay, well, what what does this mean? My body has been telling me this for a long time. Now I need to figure out what this actually means.

I want to ask you this, to go to back to your period story. So you were a travel presenter, travelling all over the world, which just sounds easy right now in this moment sounds incredible. How did you manage your period?

Estelle: Yeah, I mean, I, I sort of it’s interesting because I did Lonely Planet. I did a Lonely Planet show. I did three travel shows at one point. I was doing Treks In A Wild World, which would be you know, trekking up to K2, doing crazy things in Pakistan or I was in Kenya, I was all over the place. And it was such a gift. It was a real gift for me. I’d always been a traveller, sort of in my my late teens and my early 20s and I got that job and I was like, this is this is this is it, you know, so if the time has arrived, and it would be relentless, you know, it’s like, five in the morning you’d be showing up to a tribe in Kenya and, you know, you’d be doing, you know, you’d have to get that script and you’d have to be on it and, and ready to go. So this is the idea of having an off day wasn’t really part of that story. But I, I, we sort of took that in my stride. I’ve never, you know, I’ve never felt that my period has got, has held me back or got in the way or, you know, it’s, it’s actually in terms of travelling and in terms of that lifestyle. It was, you know, it was it was positive, it was positive. I just, I just integrated it, and, you know, worked with it, not against it.

Le’Nise: That’s interesting, working with it, rather than working against it. Were you as part of your job were you doing things like climbing you said K2, were you climbing K2?

Estelle: Yeah, I mean we were bumbling around on K2. I don’t want to say I was climbing K2. It was like, we were on the polar ice cap underneath K2 and then the whole the whole crew got you know, they all ended up lying on the on the floor with altitude sickness and it was kind of quite a dramatic time actually. But yeah, we were basically I would I would have to do climbing you know, I was climbing in Australia, they sent me down the Karijini Gorges and I had to also swim away with sharks and you know, all of that stuff swimming and climbing and abseiling. And I suppose it was like one of those moments out of that one of the adverts you know, kind of I don’t want any I don’t want to name any of that, you know, it was, it was one of those moments, I don’t want to product. I don’t want to do any product placement. But, you know, it was one of those moments me abseiling down and it’s all good, you know? So yeah, it’s um, it’s, it’s actually, it’s actually it was actually really empowering to not have to not to not feel like I should worry or I wouldn’t be able to do things or, you know, I couldn’t cycle or I couldn’t climb or I couldn’t you know it was, it was a part of who I is a part of who I am and it was just in. I just embrace that into the whole.

Le’Nise: And in terms of moving into your next life, so your next phase of work. How does your work as a healer and a psychic? How does your knowledge of the menstrual cycle, how does that factor into the work that you do? You mentioned a little bit previously, can you just talk a little bit more about that?

Estelle: About how the in terms of the moon and in terms of… well, it is interesting. I mean, there’s been a study, there’s been a couple of scientific studies around the moon and, you know, women’s periods aligning to the moon. And there’s, it’s, it’s kind of, you know, it’s not set in stone. Some people say, yes, some people say no, for me, I’ve been doing sort of full moon rituals and full moon ceremonies and celebrations for like over 20 years. And my, my period definitely now aligns itself to the moon. But the fact is, is that you know, the moon is is a powerful, is a powerful teacher. It’s a powerful tool in especially in times of the feminine because it is feminine, it’s about it’s about feminine power. And it’s another way to, you know, these are just ways to bring ourselves into stillness to bring ourselves, you know, the new moon. And then two weeks later the full moon, so obviously that goes in that cycle. And we can work with that cycle in terms of period and ovulation. And they’re just ways to bring us into more communication with Mother Earth really, with nature with our environment, with more than we are as we sit here to just bring ourselves into some sort of relationship. And that’s really about the, the wider story of that and especially, you know, where we are at this time, as as a as a species, you know, where are we today like, in relation to our future, so women have this incredible power.

We have this innate rhythm. And you know, we have this this, these, these ebb and this flow, we have this tide, every single month that moves through us, that is so powerful. So if we start to tap into that our own powers grow. So our own sense of intuition, listening to, you know, the gut, listening to the yes and listening to the no. And the moon is a way I mean with it with a full moon meditation that I do. But, you know, all meditation, it’s a way to just bring yourself into relationship with your own voice. And that and that guidance, and really, when we talk about self love, and we talk about, you know, what it means to really heal, and what it means to heal all of these stories and that you know, the period story has been very traumatic for a lot of women and in the collective and we work as a collective, you know, it’s been very traumatic for us. And it’s part of the way that we start to dislike ourselves. Right? It’s part of the way that we start to shut ourselves down, you know, oh, I’m, you know, for three days of the month, I’m unclean, I’m impure, or I’m not okay, or I’m not enough. It’s just very quiet messaging.

And really, it’s like when we start to remember and recover ourselves, you know, these are ways to remember, recover, recover love for self, you know, and we may never have had any love for self. So that’s gonna be some some proper recovery. But as a collective, you know, bringing the period story and bringing the period into a place of love, and softness and kindness. It’s the feminine energy and we hold it at our core, just by being female. So the moon is a way to just start to tap into that.

Le’Nise: How would you recommend to someone that they do this in a practical way? Because, you know, they might there might be people listening who just listening to what you’re saying and saying, ‘Well, okay, the moon. I know it sounds a bit woowoo like I don’t get it.’

Estelle: Yes, it is woo woo. Yeah.

Le’Nise: What’s a practical way that someone who is intrigued by this but doesn’t know where to start can start to connect their, the moon cycle with what’s happening for them on and their menstrual health?

Estelle: Well, I feel like you know, this is the thing about, when we break all of this stuff down. You know, really It’s like being the best, it’s been the best, it’s coming into the best version of ourselves in that very sort of simplistic way. And, you know, when you talk about menstrual health, you know, it’s it’s our, on all levels. So it’s that thing of the, our fertility, our, you know how we come into all of those positive things. And so really, it’s the listening is is what to hold on to right and keep it really basic, just the listening. So, but but you know, I feel that a great way to begin the relationship with self. And this is what this is about, really. It’s about integrating your menstruation in your cycle just into your into relating the relationship with yourself like I love mine. I love this.

So I’m going to take, I’m going to keep a note of like, my period, right, and I’m going to keep a note of my cycle. And I’m going to know when I ovulate and I’m going to you know, I’m going to keep an eye on that. I’m just going to I’m going to journal around that time because we do up and flow in that time. So often it’s it’s that you know, 14 days in or the 10 days and you start to ovulate and the body is creating you know, we’ve been we’ve been creating the follicle we’ve been doing all of that stuff and then inside and it’s really about to release the egg and, and energy changes, right. So you know, some people get cramps as you know, some people get cramps around when they’re ovulating and some people can get moody around that time too. And it’s just about listening.

So with the moon, I’d say, you know, you don’t have to overthink it. It’s just like but keep maybe keep an eye on it like start a journal like start journaling, like when there’s a full moon and you just, you see in the sky, you can look it up online or just, you know, start to keep an eye on it, right. And then you can just in that full moon you can just choose very privately very personally, go out in the garden, connect with nature. Have that five, take that 5 – 10 minutes. And just be a part of your own cycle but within a cycle and just start to kind of take to start to listen like, ‘Oh, well how do I feel on this full moon? How am I feeling?’ Right? Because the full moon affects people’s moods. I mean, that’s a separate thing, whether you’ve got your period, or you haven’t got your period coming on the format, whether it’s synced or not, the full moon affects our moods, right? We’re like 96, 97% water, and the full moon comes in and it’s, you know, the Super Moon coming up in Scorpio on Thursday. And depending on the sign that it’s in, it effects, it has different energy, it holds different medicine, it has different energy and it it comes in and it you know, can kick your it can kick your behind. So, so it’s like a time like, like the period, time is a time for reflection. For release and like what are we letting go of? Like, what are we releasing? And this menstrual cycle offers you that too? Okay? It’s that time of release when it comes to menstruation. It’s like the body’s going, it’s releasing, and it gives us that time to come back to ourselves and what do we what are we? What was that month? Like, what are we releasing? Like, you know, I would start journaling on there.

Le’Nise: So just getting a pen and paper and just noticing how you feel and perhaps noticing what where the moon is.

Estelle: Noticing, wait, how you feel, noticing where the moon is. And and it’s it’s that it’s that sort of beginning a relationship with the self like hidden inside. Because of course, from that place we can start to, when you get really in touch, you become empowered, you become aligned and in terms of manifesting. Right? So we release and we manifest you’re, you’re creating space for real manifest, like real manifestation.

Le’Nise: Talk a little bit about manifestation and what that actually is because, you know if any, if you spend a lot of time on online, you’ll see a lot of people talking about, ‘oh, I manifested this or I manifested that.’ And there will be I’m sure people who just think what is like, Am I just making things come to me from thin air? What is that in? In a practical sense?

Estelle: Yeah, yeah, no, completely. Well, I when I was when I was younger, I was like in my early 20s. I basically you know, the last thing I wanted to do at that time, was be do anything like remotely woowoo. And I was like, running from the woo woo. And I was like I’m so I’m not going to want to be healing psychic this that. I was like forget about it. Okay. I’ve always meditated, meditating has been my lifeline. I’ve done, been doing TM since I was six. But I, but in terms of the rest of it, like externally, I was not for it like, no. So I sat down and I was I went travelling, I was backpacking around India, and doing this and doing that. And then I came back and I was like, I left university and I was kind of having that sort of mid 20s, a little bit of a mid 20s coming up to sort of, you know, you’re like a bit of a crisis, like tiny because people have come out of school, come out of college, come out of university, right, got it together. And I had not got it together. But I knew that I wanted to be a presenter and I was like, right, I’m going to manifest this. And so I was about 25. And I basically did a whole, I created it, but you know what, at that time was I suppose it’s a is a type of vision board. And I went in and I was like, right, I’m doing this and at that time to be a presenter, like, you know, it was it was kind of everyone and then everyone in there everyone and their dogs, friends, cousin wanted to be a presenter. So, but I managed to get a job at the BBC. And as a as a PA, and I manifested it. And so I basically did about a year later, I became a presenter. And that’s, that’s quite a story.

But what I will say about manifestation and I’ve, I’m the big manifestation, manifesting works, it’s about but it’s, it takes two things, you know, it’s about co-creating your destiny, okay? So psychically people will come and see me and, and they’ll have things that are destined for them. But if you don’t show up to those things, you don’t you don’t get to manifest them right. So it’s it’s like you have things on your timeline, but we get to choose every day, what it is that we’re actually manifesting. So that’s why energy meets energy. So when you show up every day, and you’re like, and you’re focusing, but, you know, it’s about focusing and letting go at the same time, so, I’m focusing, I’m manifesting the love of my life. And I let it go to, like I trust, I’m going to trust and you know, so it’s two energies at the same time, the energy of manifestation.

Le’Nise: So you, you put the energy out there of what you want, but you also have to do the work.

Estelle: You have to do the work. You have to do the work. You have to show up. It’s part of being human, right. It’s part of the incarnation. You know, we’ve come here to work it out. Like we come here to learn lessons and figure it out and to refine who we are. And you know, some of that stuff means we have to work at getting what it is that we want to get, you know, what we see for ourselves or vision for ourselves, we have to kind of work to that place. And coming back to ourselves is one of the ways that’s the way that we start to align. Okay? That’s the way that we start to embody the life that we want to truly live. Sometimes we don’t know the life that we want to truly live sometimes. There’s been a lot of trauma and we’re not really sure and you know, some of my clients speak to me and they don’t know what that feels like or means. It’s like well, that’s a million miles away from me. But when, what I say is when you take a step on that path back towards back to self, you will get there and it is possible.

Le’Nise: Okay, it is possible. So, if you’re, if you really want something, vision, you can create a vision board or perhaps even write it down. You have to continue to, as you say, show up, do the work. And don’t just expect things should just fall into your lap.

Estelle: No, things do not fall into our laps, that’s not going to be happening, right? It’s just not, you know, I always say to people like, and this is a truth for me, right. So, I’ve been talking about writing a book, it’s one of the things that I need to get on and do. And it’s like, you know, I can write that book. Or I could be sitting here in 10 years time and not like that book. Okay. I have to write the book. I have to show up every morning to the page and write the book. Okay. And I have to work with all the humanness that comes in, right. All the ego, all that wounded ego stuff of like, oh, I’ve got to write, I’m showing up again, and what if and better, and it’s like, yeah, I have to work with that and I have to refine that. But keep showing up. Because that is a part of dynamic manifestation energy.

Le’Nise: I feel like you’re speaking to me, right now.

Estelle: Get off the podcast and start writing the book. Yeah.

Le’Nise: I want to just lead into your work as a psychic. So you’re a fourth generation psychic. Can you talk a little bit about that work and how you came to know that this was part of you?

Estelle: Yeah, I mean, I, I was lucky enough, you know, I suppose. You know, one of the things that that now as we’re transitioning into a more intuitive time, I feel, you know. And like I said, you know, I’ve been working with crystals for 20 years and back in the day, you know, you’re working with crystals, it was like, What are you on about? You know, it’s an inanimate object. But now it’s sort of it’s big stuff, right? So, but for me, I’ve always been lucky. I’ve been lucky enough to grow up with my mother, who is psychic.

And my world was very interdimensional, it was sort of, we got I grew up with that as just being a truth and reality, you know. And basically, you know, it’s, it was something I didn’t really want to deal with. I didn’t want to really want to, I didn’t want to be I want to be psychic. But I’ve just been psychic all my life. When I was very young, I could, you know, I could feel my mom’s headaches and I’d be able to take remove them. I could feel them in her head and I could remove them. And I’ve always sort of been, I suppose in quite interdimensional I’ve always seen things and felt things and it’s just been part of my life really. And I’m very thankful that I was able to ground that energy because I grew up in a household where it was safe.

So people who are intuitive and psychic and empath you know, empathic people who were born with that the the, you know, the high end empathy will also you know, you are going to absorb and pick up on energies. Interestingly, also, if you’ve been, if you’ve been brought up in a home where it was quite traumatising that you become hyper vigilant, and that’s also creates, it creates a sort of a deeper sensitivity in you and you also pick up on what people are feeling and thinking and doing and you know, that’s there. So one of the things that’s important for people is to learn how to sort of ground that energy because we’re all I mean, I don’t know if psychics the right word, but we are all we all have the power to be psychic in our own lives. That’s just the power of who we are. We all have the power to drop down into that, that depth. And and, and really connect in a deep way and feel and hear and see for ourselves. You may not want to do that for other people, but that absolutely and and really, that’s with my work.

What I’m empowering people to do is to be in their own power and to feel their own energy in their own lives. So that they can rely and on their own guidance or in a guidance. It’s connected. And, you know, we know it’s important then in terms of, you know, when you come out of woo woo land, it’s important. Like in your work, you know, wherever you are in relationship or to be able to, you know, have a line in the sand, you know, this is where I end and you begin, and the I end and you begin that lie in the sand means that we hold ourselves safe.

And holding yourself safe is a very, very, very important, it’s like the first don’t go out without that line in the sand. Hold yourself safe, and it’s okay to hold yourself, say, you know, I can love you completely and still have a line in the sand. It doesn’t mean I love you any less. And so when we talk about, when we think about all of this as a whole, it’s sort of and we and you know, we think about our periods and we think about moon and we think about why we’re having this conversation. It’s it’s really so that you can hold yourself safe, in a safe and grounded and loving way every day in your life, and what that looks like in the world.

Le’Nise: So having boundaries and knowing what those boundaries are, is really powerful in terms of feeling like you’re safe in your body, in your mind.

Estelle: Yeah, absolutely. And energetically, so and psychically, right? So, so energetically, and I suppose that’s what I mean about the sensitivity. You know, that we, even if we don’t think we’re psychic, you know that that sensitivity is psychic, actually, it’s kind of what it is, right? And it’s almost, it’s almost like that has been demonised over time, too. Right. So, women’s psychic ability or their intuitive ability, their healing ability, you know, we we have to that’s been really collectively, it has been collectively crushed through the year you know, over the over the centuries. So it’s just this idea that, you know, I know who I am. And I hold myself say I hold, you know, this is my line in the sand, I hold my energy safe. And I know when to say no. And I know what’s good. I know what’s not good for me, you know, doesn’t mean I love you any less. That means I love myself. I’m allowed to love myself first. And I can love you too.

Le’Nise: I asked you before about how women can connect back with their, their cycle in terms of the moon. And just to kind of expand that question to what we’re talking about now. If someone’s listening and they feel like they have this intuition, but they like you say it’s been crushed over time because of people saying, well, that’s not real. That’s, you know, that’s woo woo nonsense, but they have the sense that something else is inside them. How can they start to re-nurture that?

Estelle: Yeah, I mean, I get this a lot, right. So, with, with my with people I work with, and you know, when they start when we start to move into alignment, and trust, all of these things are very powerful. We start to quiet and we listen, you know, go into the silence, soften. We hear more, right? Our intuition, intuition speaks to us. That voice inside that you’ve sat on forever and a day, like it gets louder. And the voice inside you know, it, there’s this tussle and I witnessed this tussle a lot of like, ‘Yeah, but is it right, like, is it speaking to me? Or is it my fear was in doubt, like, is it right or wrong?’ And there is a difference, you know, there is a difference. And you start to understand the difference and we it’s like it’s a mashed, it’s like it’s all kind of in this ball at the beginning. And then we pull out, you pull out the guiding voice internal intuition, that that real don’t go there. You know, don’t put your hand in the fire, it’s gonna burn you. And, you know, don’t, ‘Oh, I’m getting alarm bells about that guy like, no, no, no’, you know, just that that real powerful voice and then all of this chatter, the chatter, right, the doubt and the fear and that didn’t you know, the maybe and should I and shouldn’t I and all that kind of chatter in the mind.

There is a difference. And the, the inner guiding voice is like, boom, it’s like it all it comes in and it gets stronger. The more you feed that you, the more you allow, like, it’s like, it’s like, you know, it’s that classic. I’m going to water the seed, right? It gets louder and it’s clear. There is a clarity to that voice. Right. So when we show up and these are gentle things, these are not like big deal things. You can just show up for five minutes a day. Okay, or on the full moon, and you can ask or just listen, you can just go into place of quietness, just, you know, jot down how you feel. And then ask, you know, ask your inner guidance, ‘Do you have a message for me today? Or is there something I need to listen to that I need to hear?’ Like, what? And you just write it and come back to it and observe it. You know, and do that for a few months. Just stay out of judgement. Stay out, you know, and I always tell people to just not get into the chatter, just observe like, and you’ll start to see who’s in the room. Right? And you’ll see that they’ll be like the chattering little Le’Nises and then there’s gonna be boom, and it’s gonna be like, Le’Nise like the the you know, she’s in, the voices in and it’s there’s a difference. And then all that’s in the room is the voice right, so that all you just you’re just in that truth, you’re in relationship. You’re in dialogue with that part of you. And that part of you, you were born to be in dialogue with that part of you, you know is the part of us it’s that really saves the day like it’s powerful.

Le’Nise: Wow, I’m getting chills and you’re talking it is it, just wow. If someone is listening and they, they want to work with you, how would they how would they go about doing that?

Estelle: They can they can find me on my website. I’m on my website: www.estellebingham.com. Yes, that’s right. I’m not very technical, technically minded, but I do get those emails. I do 1-2-1, I do workshops, and I do retreats. And so I’m also at this time, Zoom time, I’m doing, I’m doing zoom meditations. So you know, three times a week, and I do a full moon every month. So there’s one coming up tomorrow. I’ve decided that’s going to be a celebration, because I feel like, you know, we’re eight weeks into this stuff, this pandemic, and I just, you know, last week and this is the thing about energy, I was talking to you earlier about it, before we started, it’s within the collective, last week was a very tough week for people. Scorpio and the Scorpio Moon can drag us into the cave a little bit, can drag us into the darkness, that Scorpionic energy, back into some old stuff. But it’s a real cleansing, so tomorrow is a real release and a real cleanse. It was the May Day, which in Celtic culture is Beltane, which is the beginning of summer, and it’s about beginnings and it’s really, one of the things about time is to recognise that these are just moments in time and this too shall pass. And we can have and vision and manifest our new beginnings and it’s important that we do that and we push ourselves to do that too, because it’s very easy to get into a bit of a lull of what’s going to happen, the doubt, the fear and the anxiety and there’s a lot of that out there. But again, when you think about basic manifesting and visioning our futures, we also just need to show up and we need to keep showing up, personally, individually, as a collective and as a community. Cause we are all out there somewhere and we’re all connected and we’re all feeling each other. It’s just that we have to start to feel into that and some of the stuff that I’ve spoken about today is a way to start to feel into that. We’re not alone, we’re all in connection and we’re all connected and the more aligned we are, the more connected we are.

Le’Nise: If someone’s listening and you want to distill everything you’ve said into one soundbite, what would that be? What would you want that one thing they take away to be?

Estelle: Today, choose to listen to yourself, gently and lovingly, so that you are able to love yourself more and come home to yourself.

Le’Nise: Wonderful. So your website is www.estellebingham.com and they can find you there and they can also find you on Instagram.

Estelle: They can find me on Instagram. I’ve only just gone on there. I’ve been on there for about six months and yes, they can find me on there. Look forward to seeing you all.

Le’Nise: Thank you so much for coming on the show, Estelle, it’s been really wonderful speaking to you.

Estelle: Thanks for having me. It’s been great to meet you, finally.

Period Story Podcast, Episode 19: Amy Peake, I Want More Girls and Women To Rise Up And Realise Their Power

On today’s episode of Period Story podcast, I’m so pleased to share my conversation with Amy Peake, the founder of the charity Loving Humanity, which she founded in 2014 with the aim of helping women in war zones by alleviating the health problems associated with a lack of good quality and affordable menstrual pads. Since then, her work has helped to restore dignity and create social uplift for thousands of women in some of the most war-ravaged parts of the world. And crucially, allowed thousands of menstruating girls who would not normally have access to school to receive an education.

Amy and I had a wonderful conversation about the cultural impact of menstruation, disposable vs reusable menstrual pads, how Amy has been educating herself about her menstrual cycle and hormones and of course, Amy also shared the story of her first period.

Amy shares what made her decide to come off the pill and the changes she’s seen in her body. She says having a period without any pain was a revelation!

Amy talks about the importance of menstrual health education and awareness and the impact this is having on her 3 daughters and also how this extends to Loving Humanity.

We talked about Amy’s charity Loving Humanity and the powerful work it is doing in Iraq, Jordan, Kenya, Uganda and Zimbabwe to make and distribute menstrual pads and nappies to women and girls. Amy shares the story of what inspired her to start this charity and shares some of ways the charity has been able to empower women through employment, menstrual health education and support.

We had a very candid discussion about the impact access to menstrual pads can have on girls and their ability to stay in education. Amy also talked about disposable vs reusable menstrual pads and how access to water and lack of privacy makes reusables mostly a non-starter.

Amy says that she feels passionate about what she does because she wants women and girls to rise up and realise their power

Get in touch with Amy:













Amy founded her charity, Loving Humanity in 2014 with the aim of helping women in war zones by alleviating the health problems associated with the lack of good quality and affordable sanitary pads.  Since then, her work has helped to restore dignity and create social uplift for thousands of women in some of the most war ravaged parts of the world, and crucially, allowed thousands of menstruating girls, who would not normally have access to school, to receive an education.

A pilates teacher and mother of three girls, Amy’s mission began when she flew from her home in the UK to the Zaatari refugee camp in Jordan, 8 km south of the Syrian border, with the plan to provide practical help to the women and children, in the form of babygros, coats, blankets and heaters for schools.



Le’Nise: On today’s episode, we have Amy Peake. Amy founded her charity Loving Humanity in 2014 with the aim of helping women in war zones by alleviating the health problems associated with a lack of good quality and affordable sanitary pads. Since then, her work has helped to restore dignity and create social uplift for thousands of women in some of the most war-ravaged parts of the world. And crucially, allowed thousands of menstruating girls who would not normally have access to school to receive an education. Welcome to the show. So, this is a question I start each episode off with, the story of your first period. Can you share with us what happened?

Amy: Yes. I was 12 and I was on holiday with my best friend and I just remember going to the loo and pulling down my pants and seeing a brown stain thinking, oh, my gosh, this is the beginning. But sort of mildly panicked because I was nowhere near my own mother at the time. And I had that embarrassing moment of having to go and speak to her mother, oh, I got her I think, to go and speak to her mother. And she gave me the most enormous sanitary pads you’ve ever seen in your life. And I sort of had to waddle around with this, like, table between my legs. And I had to ring my mother and dad and tell them it was just one of those moments in life you never forget.

Le’Nise: Well, how did your parents react when you phoned them and told them?

Amy: Mum was sweet. She was like, oh, that’s such great news. But that was about it. It wasn’t sort of anything greater than that. And then I had this awful mild panic of, oh, my God, she’s going to tell my dad. And as much as I loved my dad, I felt very private about my body. And I immediately rang her back and said, “Please don’t tell Dad because I feel so embarrassed.” And of course, she went, “Well, I’ve already told him.: I kind of died thinking, oh, my God, everybody knows about my body. Yeah, that was it. That was my memory really, was kind of like excitement and joy to have kind of join the rest of my friends who had already started menstruating. And at the same time, that sort of sudden realisation of embarrassment and not wanting anybody to know and having to sort of talk about big girl stuff when you’re still quite small.

Le’Nise: And so, had you already known about periods? Did you have any education about what was to come when you got your first period?

Amy: Yes, I had two brothers. I didn’t have a sister which didn’t make it any easier. But I was actually at a girls boarding school. So, by the time I got my period, lots of my friends had already got theirs. So, its kind of made it easier. And there was this kind of, you know, a bit of mystery around pads and tampons and stuff like that that I kind of wanted to join in with, I suppose. So, I knew what was coming. I’m sure I had biology lessons around it, but it was more from just being with friends.

Le’Nise: And so, you got your first period and you were on holiday and then when you go went back to boarding school, did you feel like you were part of the club now?

Amy: Totally. Yeah. Like, I was one of the gang and I’d grown up, you know. My middle daughter has, you know, just got her period and it is that whole thing of wanting to be part of something when everybody else is doing it. You want to be, especially when you’re young. And I forget that now, but you know. Yes, definitely.

Le’Nise: If you think back to when you got your period and how much you knew. Do you feel like your daughters are in a different place?

Amy: Yes, I mean, they have so much better education, I think they call it PSHE and they sort of learn about stuff that I learned about now. I’m like, ‘Really? You’re learning about that?!’ And it slightly shocks me. And I sort of think they’re innocent and then I realise that they’re absolutely not. But yeah, I mean, I think life’s just changed so much. I mean, I was talking about this with my husband the other day. I’m gonna be 46 in a couple of weeks. And I mean, in the last 40 years since we were kids, I mean, you know, the Internet, you know, we had calculators but they were, you know, they were relatively kind of new things and they were quite cool and expensive. So, you know, to go from that stage to having the Internet and being able to Google and find out anything, it’s just quite extraordinary.

Le’Nise: When you got your first period and the education that you had going back to school and being part of this club, did you feel equipped to deal with any issues that may have come up? So painful periods or heavy periods?

Amy: I didn’t. It’s difficult, isn’t it? You don’t know how you’re going to be before you get it. We had a like a medical centre we could go to or house mistresses. I, too, had incredibly painful periods. And eventually, at the age of, I think, 17, they put me on a massive, great pain killer and then quite soon after that, they put me on the pill. Knowing what I know now, it wasn’t great. They weren’t great choices. They weren’t the best solutions. But that’s what was available. And there were people there to help. Definitely.

Le’Nise: So, what? When you say knowing what you know now it wasn’t the best solution. What do you mean by that?

Amy: Well, actually, this is only my second month of coming off the pill. I mean, I’ve had three children, so I obviously came off the pills to do those things. But I started not feeling particularly well or something was off. It was my daughters, they started getting really bad period pains and were saying, “Mum, can I go on the pill?’ And they’re like 15, 16, I’m like, no, there has to be a better way. And when I was in my 20s, I love learning. So, I literally remember going to the library in Putney. Going there have to be books out here to explain how I could manage pain without going on the pill. There was not one book. And I felt so sort of surprised that there was such a massive lack of knowledge. And then I found an acupuncturist in Bath where I live. And this gorgeous person said, Oh, well have you read this book? And this is what you need. So, the girls and I have all had acupuncture, which has helped enormously. And then I read Period Repair Manual.

Le’Nise: Yeah, that’s a great book.

Amy: Amazing book. I mean, I’m reading all of this stuff around magnesium and zinc and turmeric and B6 and all this stuff. I used to take B6 and evening primrose, but I swear, last month I had a period without any period pain. I nearly fell off my chair. I was like, ‘why did someone not tell you this 20 years ago?’ And that’s what I mean when you know what I know now, I would not have gotten the pill at the age of 17 if I’d known that I was just short of a few things. I played hockey all the time. So, my body was probably dying for magnesium. And although as much as I was on B6, I wasn’t on zinc, I wasn’t on turmeric, I just wasn’t aware that my body was lacking stuff and there was a way of healing it without taking Western medicine. So, I mean, I feel like I’ve sort of woken up into a new world at the age of 46 just before I go into my menopause which is great, better late than never.

Le’Nise: Was this just two months ago you went to see the acupuncturist and then came off a pill?

Amy: Yeah, I mean, literally it’s all just happening now.

Le’Nise: Oh, wow.

Amy: And what’s really exciting for me is that I wanted to experience Amy without steroids in my body and the fact that when we’re on the pill, we don’t actually bleed. I was on a pill that allowed me to have a withdrawal bleed, but we don’t actually ovulate. I did have a cycle, it was definitely something that I could still feel, but it wasn’t properly me and I wanted to know me before I became older. And that is fascinating.

Le’Nise: What have you discovered about yourself?

Amy: I like myself more. I don’t suffer horrendous sugar cravings that I used to get when I came off the pill or as I was coming off the pill ready to bleed. I just crave sugar like nobody’s business, and I don’t have that. I thought I was some monster. And I realised that it was all just induced by hormones and whatever, you know. And I’m a massive believer in healing and education. And therefore, to be in this age and there not be better solutions, you know, is beyond me.

But the other thing which I’m really passionate about. So, where we are now, I find fascinating and sad in that we’re in a very male dominated or not male, just a masculine energy. This isn’t about men and women. There’s a very masculine energy, very patriarchal society we’re living in. And women, we expect ourselves to be able to keep up with that same energy as men all the time. And so, what I’m really learning by coming off the pill and by practicing menstrual cycle awareness is that if we can allow this feminine energy to rise and for the world to realise that we work in cycles, not at 100 miles an hour all time. I think that when that happens in the world, which won’t be for a while, but when it does happen, I think that the world will come back into balance and that we will actually have a healing of the planet and a transformation which we don’t currently have or even perceive that we could possibly have, apart from a few people who are a little bit more enlightened. But I think that’s what’s wrong. I think that’s what’s missing. Is that this feminine energy isn’t even allowed to rise because women don’t know that we have it. We just sit on it going gosh, we’ve got a period, how annoying, I feel dreadful, blah, blah, blah. Instead of going, oh, oh, thank goodness, I’m going to go off into my little cave and snuggle myself and stay under my duvet and nurture myself and be in touch with the divine and then come out again. And that’s where the magic is and we’re missing it. You know, for me, we’re missing and denying ourselves the power of the feminine. That’s what I’m really loving learning about and realise that in learning about myself more, that that’s the missing ingredient in the planet, in the world, how we’re functioning.

Le’Nise: And you had all of these realisations in the last two months? I just think it’s amazing that you’ve discovered it so quickly.

Amy: Not so much the last two months as in around the feminine energy rising, definitely around the education of the vitamins and minerals that I can take to support myself more than I have been. I suppose, given what I do, I’m a massive champion of women and equality. I suppose more than that reading, I’ve also just read Wild Power, which is a phenomenal book. I think coupled with learning that there are other women out there who have been studying this stuff and have written such eloquent books, kind of goes hand in hand with what I do, which is, for goodness sake, let’s lift women up globally. And so, to get that I’m not actually out on a limb completely by myself and there are actually millions of women who believe the same thing. I’m like, oh thank goodness, I’m quite normal. You know, it’s something around that. Yes, over the last few months, there’s been this huge focusing of that and the focus of goodness me, if women didn’t deny ourselves our cycles and if the whole culture was revolved around acknowledging women and the power and the wisdom that come through menstruating, I mean, crikey, the world would be a different place.

Le’Nise: All of the realisations that you’ve had and the learning that you’ve had around the menstrual cycle, awareness and energy, have you passed that on to your daughters? And are they kind of trying to live that way as well?

Amy: Well, the middle one, who has to have everything really beautiful. So, we have a circle, you know, with a cut out of 30 days and we have to fill in every day how we feel. And so, we can get at this feeling of the winter, the spring and the summer and autumn and that sort of thing. And she likes it to be so beautiful and so she hasn’t put enough time aside for it to be beautiful enough. So, I’m just putting it in front of her and doing it. The old one just doesn’t want to know. She thinks I’m completely cuckoo and I need to get back in my box. But I’m working on it! Having said that, when I took them both to the acupuncturist, you know, when you start understanding that there’s another world of healing and transformations, empowerment, all of that stuff that’s out there. You know, Lily, who’s 16, was listening with open ears going, “Oh, my gosh, Mum, I didn’t know you knew this stuff” and I’m like, well, you know, I’m 46, maybe I know some stuff. I think it was exciting for her and mind opening, you know, to hear about a different way of looking after yourself and the energy exists. And it’s not just put a pill in your mouth and the problem will go away. It’s how do we best live with ourselves and evolve. And that was really exciting to share with her, really exciting. 

Le’Nise: And what sort of changes have you made to the way that you eat in order to facilitate all of the coming off of the pill and the reduction of the period pains?

Amy: Well, this one’s been a bit of a kind of a struggle for the last 20 odd years. I used to be a personal trainer and a Pilates teacher. So very early on I understood I couldn’t drink alcohol and get up very early in the morning and run with people. So that was just tough. But as I got older and sort of supposedly grown up and you go out to dinner parties or you go out with your friends, I just realised, and I learned the hard way that alcohol kills me, and it makes my cycle worse. It sends me on a binge cycle of eating loads of bad food. And so, since January, I haven’t had a drop of alcohol. I didn’t drink that much anyway, but it was kind of like, how can I live my best life? And it would definitely without alcohol. And equally, I have the same relationship with sugar. So, I really try not to eat it. When I do, I’m afraid it’s my Achilles heel, it’s just like my drug. So, I try not to go there and when I do, I just forgive myself. You know, going off around the mountains, up and down the hills.

The other thing that’s happened, which is really funny and amazing, is that my middle daughter, Amber, has just declared that she’s vegan. She watched one of these films about animal treatment and just went, that’s it, never again. And she was a complete chicken fajita fan so for this girl to say she’s going vegan is like almost like an earthquake. And so, as a result, we’ve all just embraced cooking vegan food. And so, we just live on a huge amount of vegetables and pulses and all the really, really good stuff. And we’re all feeling amazing. And even my husband, who’s longing for that kind of food as well, has embraced it. I mean, not totally, I have a third daughter and she still eat meat. So, yeah, I really, I’m totally aware of how food and my body either makes it or breaks it every month, without question.

Le’Nise: You’ve learned so much and you’ve done so much in the past, we’re only in April. It’s like we’re only April, it feels like so much in like globally has happened in 2020 already. And you’ve had so many amazing changes happen to you. You have three daughters and they’re kind of slowly learning this stuff in their own way, some are embracing it, some aren’t. I wonder how does all of this translate into the work that you do? So, your charity. Can you talk a little bit about the charity and then perhaps how all of the learning that you’ve done have has changed the work that you’ve done or changed maybe any perspective on your work?

Amy: Wow. So, in a nutshell, if I talk about Loving Humanity so everybody understands. In 2014, I was sitting in my doctor’s surgery and saw the most horrific photograph of 18,000 people queuing for bread in Damascus. And in the foreground of the picture was a woman. And I thought, ‘oh, my goodness me what if that was me? And how do women cope? Being mothers, carers, women in war zones. I mean, how do you cope?’ In this picture the street was completely bombed out. There were no shops. I mean after you’ve had a baby, you’ve just got to know where the nearest toilet is. And I was like, oh, my God. When I go to the loo, you know, it was kind of basic. And that’s when I started on this journey of trying to import a local sanitary pad machine from India into Jordan, and we set up a sanitary pad factory and a washable nappy factory in the camp because I learned about a huge problem of incontinence with traumatised kids who were bedwetting.

So, we set up this factory. We employed 30 of the most vulnerable women in the camp. And it was absolutely the most incredible thing ever and really inspiring for me to be so uplifted by women who had lost everything and to see how they coped with life. You know, I was thinking this thing is going to last forever, and as it turned out, due to politics, we had to close that factory and move out to the capital city, Amman. And now we have a factory there that makes washable nappies and basically, we make them for the new-borns but also primarily for people suffering with disability and or old age. And we employ eight Iraqis who fled from Mosul from ISIS. And we also, in the meantime, developed our own machine because the Indian solution wasn’t quite an off the peg solution. And we set up our first factory with partners in Kibera, the largest slum in Nairobi. And there our partners give away the pads there for free and they help out a thousand girls every month to stay in school. And it’s you know, I’m constantly amazed and uplifted by meeting these incredible people who have nothing. And, you know, here we have everything and not very much spiritually, you know, on another level.

So how does my learning affect my work now? I think I feel even more passionate about helping women to stay in education. I don’t see how this transformation; this shift can happen on our planet until women are educated. And it is so shocking to me that these poor girls and women are unable to just go to school. And part of that problem is the lack of access to pads. And on top of that, they have their domestic chores that they have to be kept at home with, their whole culture’s different. But to have that right taken away from you, to have the possibility or that potential taken away from you as a young person? I mean, UNICEF apparently wrote an article saying that 65% of girls in Kenya traded sex for pads. And someone called them on it saying, well, can you prove that? Well, no, we can’t prove that. So, they said, well, actually, 10%. But the point is that there’s a huge practice in trading sex for sanitary pads in the slums and in poor cultures. And that’s just unacceptable. And so when I have the good grace to recognise how unbelievably fortunate I am and to have all this knowledge at my fingertips and the money to then act on it, I just you know, it makes my heart bleed that other people, other girls, other women, even in my own country can’t access or have this opportunity to learn and to grow and that’s where the planet’s going to change. I feel more passionate about what I do because I want more girls and more women to rise up and to realise their power. And for men to recognise it in their societies and in our society. I mean, even now, we don’t have equal pay and I work with a fabulous woman who’s constantly quoting Invisible Women, saying, well, you know, women aren’t recognised in data collection, so how on earth can we have a world that’s designed for us? So, yeah, I feel more passionate as time goes by about helping and lifting up more women.

Le’Nise: What countries do operate in? You mentioned Jordan. You mentioned Kenya.

Amy: So, we’re in Jordan and Kenya right now. We have a factory which is just crossing the Iraqi border now. And we’re going into an internally displaced camp in Iraq where there are 5,000 people and currently there’s no distribution of pads. So, we’re doing a project there with Oxfam. Basically, I was due to go to Iraq at the end of March but because of the virus that was stopped. We’ve also got work in Uganda and Zimbabwe, but we’re really working on trying to make connections with governments to facilitate tax exemptions because as soon as we have to pay tax and it starts making the whole thing financially not viable and tricky.

Le’Nise: So, when you started the project in these countries, have you had to overcome any cultural assumptions or barriers regarding the importance of menstruation and the importance of getting the sanitary products to these women?

Amy: That’s a good question. The answer is no. It’s really strange. In the Middle East, you know, men and women are very separate, and they live their lives very separately. You know, even at weddings, women dance together, and the men aren’t there, and the men are elsewhere, it’s a very unusual society for us, a very unusual culture for us. And even though there’s a lot of shame around menstruation, shame as in it’s not talked about. There is a massive recognition by men that women menstruate, and men know that it exists. And actually, they facilitated the opening of the factory in the refugee camp because the men were in charge. The fact that they had a white British woman walking around saying, I want to open a sanitary pad factory, they just went, oh, OK. They were amazing, the men were amazing. I suppose when I come along and say, well, you know, this is an issue and we need to sort this out. They go, ‘Yeah, of course we do.’ And since working in Jordan, the United Nations High Commission for Refugees who run the camp and who I worked with, they then started going on courses around menstruation, you know, so it’s kind of like just from a little beginning, lots of things happen.

And the same in Kenya. You know, everybody knows it happens. The fact that it’s not on the curriculum, but it’s against the law to talk about it I think even in schools, you know, it’s kind of crazy, like how can that not be on the curriculum? Everybody knows what goes on, no one’s ever blocked it. And now we’re talking with the Ministry of Health in Kenya, they support our work. And we’ve just partnered with Wash Alliance Kenya. And these are men. You know, these aren’t women. These are men and they’re wonderful. They’re doing great, great work. So, it has to be recognised, a lot of the time, women presume that men are an obstacle in this journey and it’s so not the case. It’s very, very touching that men want to provide for women. The fact that it’s not talked about and culturally not accepted is a different thing. So, I’ve been very uplifted by the support that I’ve had. Obviously, it would be you know, I wouldn’t be doing what I do if it wasn’t a problem and if it wasn’t, except to say it’s kind of a weird one, but it’s kind of everybody knows what’s going on, no one is just talking about it.

Le’Nise: And are the pads that you make, are they reusable or are they disposable pads?

Amy: Well, in Jordan and in Kenya, when we started, they’re disposable, because in certain situations there’s such a massive lack of privacy that a woman would never hang up a pad to dry. She would rather die herself than go, oh, my goodness, I menstruate. You know, they just wouldn’t do that. So, we did research doing washable pads in the camp and the women just went, we won’t use them. And the same in the slum. But having said that, now that the nappy factory moved out of the refugee camp in Jordan into the city, there’s a lot of research saying that 19 out of 20 women would use washable pads because they have more privacy and they also have running water. In the slum, they don’t even have clean water to drink. So, you know, to use water to wash something is sort of a luxury, really, you know. Which is why the virus is posing such a problem in the slum and people are desperately trying to set up handwashing stations and stuff like this.

So, you know, it’s very difficult. And it’s something that I find quite challenging when I talk to people or when people ask me, actually, because sometimes quite aggressively: “Why aren’t your products more environmentally friendly or sustainable? ‘The answer is because some situations it just isn’t appropriate. Or when you have millions and millions and millions of girls needing help, you would have to produce millions and millions of washable pads at great expense and distribute those. So really, my aim is to, first of all, get pads on girls, get them into school, let’s educate everybody and let’s find some fabulous solutions to solve the problems that we’re also creating at the same time environmentally in the world and the way that we live.

I do have quite staggering conversations with usually white middle class women saying, well, that’s absolutely appalling, you know, how can you put something else into the environment which is going to make it worse? Like, well, are you saying that these poor girls shouldn’t have access to education? Because that’s what you’re saying. There isn’t really another alternative which is suitable. I mean, a moon cup, for instance, you know, sounds great and for a lot of girls, they’re very uncomfortable, difficult to insert, they just too much for the mental stage of development. And also, when you go to the toilets in the slum, which are very far and few between, you know, in the school I visited, there’s a hundred kids using three toilets and there’s a pile of poo in each toilet and they flush it with a bucket of water three times a day. Well, if you were to take a cup and empty blood onto that, I mean, you just would not, you just wouldn’t do it. And so, you know, some of the solutions that we have in our culture and our society are fabulous. But we have to remember that when we’re working in places where there’s no running water, where there’s no privacy, you know, then we have to alter what’s possible.

Having said that, when we hopefully one says something to drop a huge pile of gold in our lab, we can actually turn our raw materials over to biodegradable ones. We’re doing a costing exercise at the moment to do that. But it will cost about three times as much to produce a more positive pad than it would do to the one that we have now. So, again, it’s a financial thing. And it’s because the commercial industry in our world hasn’t gone over that tipping point of women absolutely insisting that what we buy is biodegradable.

Le’Nise: Can you talk a little bit about some of the success stories that have come out of the incredible work that you’re doing?

Amy: Gosh, well, on the on the face of it, like just the top line, a thousand girls a month are being helped in the slum which is fabulous. In Jordan last year, we made and distributed over 4,000 nappies. So, the top line is that, you know, the work’s getting done. Eventually we’re really having the impact we want. We, as a result of the factory in the slum, employ five women. In Jordan, we employ eight women. So not only are we helping people with the products, we’re giving jobs and for the people who we give jobs to, they’re able to support their families better. We’re distributing products. We’re creating jobs. I was just saying that I didn’t have any idea that what I set out to do would impact people financially. When we left the refugee camp, the Norwegian Refugee Council, who we were working with, did a monitoring and evaluation report and the people who received and used our nappies saved 25% of their monthly income. Which is huge. So, I had no idea that that would happen. So that was exciting, I mean, you know, 25% is huge amount of money, isn’t it?

And then on the other level, the success for me is in the small things that happens. And I suppose in the camp, one of the lovely things that happened is that in a refugee camp, this may be some kind of presumption that people will just kind of know each other. And that’s not the case, obviously. One day I was working in the factory with the women and I said, “Do you see each other outside of work?” And they said, “You, you know, actually every Saturday night we get together in each other’s tent and we have a coffee and, you know, we’ve become each other’s support network.” And I’m like, oh, how amazing and how touching. And then at another moment, I was working in the church after we moved out of the camp, we were in the compound of a church now. And the women in the refugee camp were Muslim and from Syria. And the women in the church where we work are from Iraq and they’re Christian. So, it was fascinating for me to work with two Middle Eastern cultures, one be Muslim, and one be Christian. And the Muslim ladies were terrified of coming down to the church saying, “Amy, I can’t go into the church, it’s against my beliefs, I’m really terrified,” I said, “Darling, don’t worry, I’ll look after you, the factory is just in a room next door to the church, you don’t have to go to church, everything will be fine.” And so, they come down and we have the Christians and Muslims working together and they were being really funny going, “Oh, I’m better, she’s not very good.” And, you know, ten minutes later, they’re like best mates making nappies and it’s all peace and love. And then it gets to lunchtime. And I suddenly realised that I’m supposed to provide lunch because nobody else is there and whatever. So, I go out with my interpreter. We go and buy some chicken and rice and come back to church. And there’s a cutting table which hasn’t quite made it into the factory sitting in the middle of this compound, this church. And so, there we are, there’s about ten of us standing around this table and one of the ladies lifting up her hijab and eating her chicken and rice very gracefully. And another of the ladies who is Christian turns around me, she says, “Amy, isn’t it crazy that you have to come all the way from the UK to make us friends?” And you’re like, oh, I think I’m, you know, cry ready to get home now. The whole point is that we’re the same and we get so confused by what we look like or by what we believe. And if you have a little magical moment of some people realising in the midst of war, I mean, the interpreter who works for us, his brother was shot by a Muslim in Iraq because he had a cross hanging from his car mirror, you know, he literally walked up to the car window and shot him. And so, these are people who’ve expressed such enormous loss and tragedy and war. So, for me to say, oh, the Christian and Muslim making friends isn’t that lovely, I’m like, it’s amazing when people can set aside what they’ve lost to see the humanity in each other. And that’s just so wonderful and so sad that we can’t see that automatically in each other immediately. Does that make sense?

Le’Nise: Yeah, absolutely. Can you talk a little bit about what’s coming up? I know everything’s on hold at the moment because of Coronavirus, but post Corona, talk about what’s coming up next for you. You said you’re expanding into Zimbabwe and Uganda. What your plans are if you can share any of that?

Amy: Yeah. The first thing will be, I’ll go to Iraq to set up a factory there. The thing that’s going to happen at the same time as that, is that we’re shipping three factories to Kenya, actually two. I beg your pardon. One of them is going to a project north of Nairobi where this amazing Englishman called David Baldwin supports a parish. And the organisation that he runs feeds fifteen hundred kids a day. And they’ve set up the most amazing project, a residential project for girls to go off and spend time for a week with each other instead of being cut. He does amazing work and we’ve really struggled to get tax exemptions into Kenya, but now we’re working alongside the government so it’s all going to happen, so that’s so exciting. Also, at the end of last year, we partnered with the PAD Project, which is an amazing American teacher who made a film about one of these Indian factories, and they filmed the fact that the village before the factory arrived and after and the impact of it and she got an Oscar. Melissa Burton got an Oscar for this. And we’ve partnered because as a result of their work, they’re looking for factories to put into places and ours is very simple and does what it says on the tin. So, we’re working with them, we’re sending them a factory in Kenya and we’re also sending raw materials to resupply the current factory.

I’m also trying to get hold of people in high places in Uganda to get tax exemptions there where we’ve also with the PAD project, got some other factories going in. We’ve got two factories wanting to get into Uganda. And for ages, again, same with Zimbabwe. We’re trying to get tax exemptions into Zimbabwe so we can send a factory there. But basically, the plan from now on is to set up hubs in these countries to send three factories at a time so that the logistical costs of shipping and set up are much, much cheaper for everybody. And we’ll take care of those logistics to enable in-country partners to set up factories more easily without having to deal with that logistics.

Le’Nise: And if someone is listening and they are really connecting with your work, how can people support what you do?

Amy: There’s a few things. One of them would be if you have amazing skills that are transferable to a charity then do get in touch, particularly fundraising, if you have fundraising skills that be cool. The other thing that we set up is called the Heart of Loving Humanity. And the Heart is a group of people who give £5 or more a month and £5 a month translates to keeping 10 girls in school a month. And that’s our lifeline at the moment. And if you’re wealthier than that and you want to give us a lovely big present, then that’s amazing and you can find our details on our website. 

Le’Nise: I think what you’re doing is so amazing and what you said about the cultural perspective around menstruation, but also reusable versus disposable pads and thinking about what these girls and women actually need in the environment they’re in is really important because I think that people do get quite single-minded about, OK, there has to be reusable. We have to think about the environment, but it also has to be practical for these girls and these women, so they don’t put themselves in danger trying to just do the best for their menstrual needs.

Amy: Yeah. And you know what? I’m really passionate about the environment. I mean, it’s so sad what we’ve done collectively. It’s so sad. But our behaviour shouldn’t be translated in not allowing other people who are a lot poorer than us to have access to the things that they need just to maintain their dignity. I mean, in the slum, the girls cut up their mattresses, that’s how they manage their periods. So, you know, it’s kind of like, really, are you going to start stamping your feet about some sanitary pads? You know, one of the things that we’re aiming to do when we’re more in charge of these projects is to put incinerators into the schools so that the girls can automatically take care of their own waste. So at least our bubble of the little world that we’re providing pads to will be sustainable in that sense that we won’t be adding to more, you know, mess everywhere. But, yeah, I mean, we’re so lucky, you know, we’re just so lucky.

And you know, going to Kenya was possibly the most upsetting thing I’ve had to deal with. And the reason we’re working there is because an Australian team of people made a film about an Australian woman who was gang raped in Nairobi, a humanitarian aid worker and instead of going back to Australia, she took her rape case through the courts, and it took her eight years. It was the first rape case that was heard, and they changed the rape law as a result. The filmmakers who made this story when they were filming learned about the girls not going to school because of lack of pads. And they were, Lois Harris, who funded the project. She was having a meeting with the heads of the villages, the women heads of the villages in the slum. So, there were 20 women in the room. And she said, could you please put up your hand if your first sexual experience was consensual? And one woman put up her hand. They are living in such a different world and occasionally I watch films about the girls in Kibera being filmed. And they talk about, you know, we have lots of things to deal with, we have lots of challenges. Oh, my gosh. do they, you know, rape is a normal thing. I mean, how could you possibly say that it’s, you know, physical abuse and threat and, you know, trading sex for pads, these girls are offered 50p for sex regularly by their peers. You know, by boys. And, you know, the violence against women is awful. If you become a widow in Kenya, it’s completely acceptable that you’re gang raped by the rest of the men in the village. You know, these of these are conversations I’ve had with women who go through this. And so, we can’t even begin really to understand. And when I came home, it took me about three weeks to process really the horrible things I’ve seen and the reality of it. So I really wish that women here would just take a moment to fully acknowledge how lucky we are and to realise that the shift in the planet and all the environmental changes, everything that we’re wanting to see will not happen until we lift the whole of the planet up. I believe that, you know, I don’t think I’m crazy. I think we’re not treating each other right. We’re not kind to each other and we don’t respect each other and we’re not kind to the planet and we don’t respect it. And when we do look after each other and love each other, we’ll change overnight.

Le’Nise: If someone listening to this and you want them to take one thing from all of the amazing things you’ve said, what would you want that to be?

Amy: I would love it for women and men to know that they are unbelievably powerful and that they can be the change that they want to see in the world.

Le’Nise: Amazing, how can people get in touch with you?

Amy: My telephone numbers on our website, which is lovinghumanity.org.uk. My email address is there, if I don’t respond, for goodness sake keep at me, I’m best on WhatsApp so if you take that telephone number and put it into WhatsApp, I’m really easy to get a hold of. And if you’re studying, you want to talk about it, you want to know about period poverty, anything, I’m really available. And, you know, I love what I do. And a love the people who I meet through what I do. I actually often say to people, I feel a little bit like I’m in a Harry Potter movie and I’m the person in Hogwarts, because I go around the world meeting people who are changing the planet and who are showing so much love. And so, yeah, you can be absolutely the change you want to see in the world. I think Gandhi hit the nail on the head. Be the change in the world you want to see. And to love each other.

Le’Nise: Thank you so much for coming on the show, it’s been so amazing to speak to you.

Amy: I really enjoyed myself. Thanks for having me.

Period Story Podcast, Episode 18: Mandy Manners, Respecting My Body Has Been Part Of My Sobriety

On today’s episode of Period Story podcast, I was so pleased to speak with Mandy Manners. Mandy is a mindset and recovery coach who coaches women to harness their decision to go sober, to pivot from surviving to thriving in all areas of their lives. She’s also a co-founder of Love Sober, a hub for one to one coaching, workshops and community, and hosts The Love Sober podcast with Kate Baily.

Mandy and I had a wonderful conversation about the impact of alcohol on women, the role the menstrual cycle plays in alcohol addiction, and of course, Mandy also shared the story of her first period.

Mandy shared the moment in her thirties when she felt she really learned about her period and the effect this change had on her.

Mandy talked candidly about the impact going sober had on her period and menstrual cycle. She also shared fascinating research around the points in our menstrual cycle where we will potentially be more triggered to drink alcohol. Have a listen to hear Mandy talk through an insightful example of a woman who planned her alcohol recovery treatment around her menstrual cycle.

Mandy talks about the steps women who are struggling with their alcohol consumption can take to get a better sense of control. She says that support and community is so important, as well as having an open mind about changing their habits and I completely agree!

Get in touch with Mandy:













Mandy is a mindset and recovery coach. She coaches women to harness their decision to go sober to pivot from surviving to thriving in all areas of their lives, she also works to raise awareness and to destigmatise experiences of trauma, mental illness and substance use disorders by telling her story.

A mother of two, fluent in both English and French she works internationally and online. 

Mandy is the Co-founder of Love Sober and the Love Sober Podcast with Kate Baily and their first book Love Yourself Sober, A Self-Care Guide to Alcohol-Free Living for Busy Mothers will be published 04/09/2020 by Trigger Publishing. Love Sober is the hub for 1-2-1 coaching, courses, workshops and community.



Le’Nise: On today’s episode, we have Mandy Manners. Mandy is a mindset and recovery coach who coaches women to harness their decision to go sober, to pivot from surviving to thriving in all areas of their lives. She also works to raise awareness and to destigmatise experiences of trauma, mental illness and substance abuse disorders by telling her story. She’s a co-founder of Love Sober, a hub for one to one coaching, workshops and community, and also hosts The Love Sober podcast with Kate Baily and their first book, which is very exciting, Love Yourself Sober, a Self-care Guide to Alcohol Free Living for Busy Mothers will be published in September this year by Trigger Publishing. Welcome to the show.

Mandy: Thank you for having me. It’s a timely conversation, I think, so I’m excited.

Le’Nise: So, let’s start off with a question I ask all of my guests. Tell us the story of your first period.

Mandy: Well, I got my period quite late, I think I was 14, I’m pretty sure fourteen or fifteen. I remember it feeling very, very late in comparison to my friends. And I was away from home, I was staying with some friends that I used to go and stay with in the summer in Kent. And it was quite funny because it was that summer of, like lots of things happening. I remember having a conversation with my friends beforehand and they both had their period and we were talking about sex. And I was like, so if I haven’t had my period, granted, I’d never kissed a boy at this point, like if I haven’t got my period and then I can have sex and not get pregnant. And they’re like, yeah. And I was like, oh, my God, I’m like, totally just going to have all the sex, even though I’d like, not kissed a boy. And then I got my period and I was really disappointed. Oh, man. And then I kissed a boy and then I got boobs all in that summer. So, I kind of came back to school and ever was like, wow, what happened? You know, that kind of transformation. So, I was really excited. I was ready and I wanted it to happen. And then, you know, after I had it, I was like, oh, it’s not that great. I’d never had any really bad kind of PMT or period pains or anything, I was quite lucky, really. So yeah, that was my first one.

Le’Nise: You were away from home for your first period. How did you know what to do?

Mandy: Friends. I mean, luckily, I was with two friends and they were sisters and they just sorted me out, you know, gave me some pads and their mum was quite open so I talked to her, they just helped me out with it. And I mean, everyone else had had their period, so I’d seen everyone and I’d kind of had sleepovers where people had leaked and, you know, the trauma of all that so I was pretty well prepared. I mean, I didn’t talk to my mum about it. I think being that age, that bit later, I was kind of already shut off to those conversations with my mum. So, I remember she kind of asked me once and I’m like, yeah, it’s fine and that was the end of the conversation. Bless her I mean, I think she would have loved to talk more openly, but I was closed to that conversation.

Le’Nise: You having had your first period, and gotten the support from your friend’s mum, then how did you carry on your education around menstrual health? What did you do?

Mandy: Well, that was it. To be honest, I mean, I had no sort of education around menstrual health up until I’d say, my 30s. I had the basic information from my friends. I read a bit on the back of packets of tampons about, you know, how to use them properly. It was a big shift for me from going from towels to tampons because I really didn’t like sort of external bleeding and I was really ashamed. And also, I had two older brothers. So I had that kind of rhetoric within the home of like, oh, it’s gross and like, you know, so I kind of just shut up about it really, and didn’t have any connection with my menstrual blood or anything until I switched to cups when I was in my thirties. And I think that was when I really learned about periods, really.

Le’Nise: What made you make this switch, so you started with towels and then you went to tampons and then you switched to a menstrual cup, which even now is still a bit unusual?

Mandy: Yes, it was. Well, because I had two kids and I just started to kind of feel tampons and it just didn’t feel very nice. And I had a conversation with a friend, I live in France, and she was like, “oh, you know, I switched to a cup” and I’d seen them, you know, and been intrigued. But she’s really tiny, I mean, she’s a size 6 and I was like, I’m sure it works for you but… and she was like, “No, no, no, I actually have quite heavy periods”, so I think that’s kind of an assumption we make about people. So, she’s like, “Just give it a go” and she gave a really brilliant piece of advice, it was like, just stick with it because it will take about three months. And I’m really glad she said that because at the beginning it was quite kind of messy and I wouldn’t get the position right. And, you know, and there were moments where I thought, oh, God, I’m just gonna give up with this. But I’m so glad I stuck with it because, well, A, I don’t pay for any kind of sanitary pads or anything anymore and it’s good for the environment and I really like it. And I actually really like that connection with my cycle, and I thought I had so much more blood than I actually do. And I probably only have two days where I have to kind of change it really regularly. Other than that, I can change it twice a day or something. So, yeah, it’s been a great change. And I’ve actually recommended it to quite a lot of my friends and I’ve got four friends now that have switched to cups, which is great. And we’re having more conversations about it now, so, yeah, I definitely recommend it to people, but just, you know, it takes a bit of time and work, you know, to kind of get it right.

Le’Nise: Yeah, it definitely does take time. I’ve been using a cup for probably about five years. And I remember when I first started, I was just like, how am I going to do this? I don’t know how this is gonna work for me. And then there were lots of accidents. And at one point, I was just like, should I switch back to tampons? But using tampons never really sat right with me. And I actually noticed that when I actually properly stopped using tampons and really gave the menstrual cup a go, my periods actually got better because I used to have really, really painful periods. And I think that, you know, sometimes with the tampons, some of the cotton, you know, you see it coming out afterwards. And I think that was having a really negative effect on my periods. I mean, this is all me hypothesising, I don’t know for sure, but yeah, I definitely agree with your advice of just sticking with it because it can be really life changing. Financially, you’re not spending so much money on tampons and pads and just in terms of changing menstrual health, it can make a massive difference.

Mandy: I’m so glad I did. I mean, it’s difficult because my daughter’s now 13, so maybe we’ll talk about this a bit more. But, you know, so she’s going through that experience and it’s difficult because, I mean, I think she’s too young. I mean, I don’t know. Do you have any advice for young kind of pre-teens, sort of that age group? I want her to be comfortable and I want it to be easy. But certainly, for me, using towels was the worst because it was just like I just didn’t enjoy having that exterior blood all the time. So, I don’t know. I mean, what do you have any advice?

Le’Nise: I don’t have a daughter myself, but if I think about the other women who’ve been on the podcast with daughters and the other women I’ve spoken to with daughters, have a conversation early and often, you know, let them be really familiar with what’s going on with you. You know, talk to them about your menstrual cup, talk to them about your experience of having a period, but also let them know that about what’s normal and what isn’t normal, because what I’ve seen so far in doing this podcast is that, if women have a period that is what they think is normal but isn’t actually normal, so really painful periods, really heavy bleeding, then they pass down that idea of normality, quote unquote, to their daughters. And then we perpetuate this cycle of thinking that periods are supposed to be painful, they’re supposed to be kind of like a horror show. And it doesn’t have to be that way. So, you know, I guess there’s a couple of people who’ve come on the podcast who talked about giving their daughters like a little gift to celebrate their first period. One woman, she had a period party for her daughter. So, yeah, definitely starting the education early and then just making it not a taboo, you know, removing that idea of shame and just having normal conversations about it, just like you would with any other health issue.

Mandy: Yes. I mean it’s interesting ’cause we live in France and her kind of sex ed at the moment and it’s taken from a very biological point of view. So, they’ve been studying the body and the changes of the body and part of that is periods. And so, she’s had about two weeks of talking about periods which she’s found very uncomfortable. You know, and the boys are making jokes and that whole thing. And they’ve even had kind of exams about it. And she was just like I don’t understand why we have to go into so much detail. You know, everyone has talked about it. And know it’s like I get it that it feels embarrassing right now, but you definitely will feel grateful for this information later and you’ll feel grateful that the boys know about it, too. It just ties in with that time in your life where you’re very self-conscious. So, it’s like, I get it, I get that you’re self-conscious but actually, this is all really good learning. Yeah. I mean, I’m just so glad that people are talking about it more because there’s nothing shameful in that. You know, Sharon, London Artist is my friend, so I listened to her episode with you and that, you know, that shame of hiding tampons up your sleeve and that whole thing that we do, it’s just like, yeah, enough. I wonder from a kind of feminist point of view, I wonder if there is something tied with that patriarchy of, you know, you get to do the thing we can’t do, which is produce life. So, we’re going to make it this whole shameful thing. I don’t know.

Le’Nise: I think definitely with younger people, there’s less shame because the conversations are more open. I mean, we can’t speak for everyone, but certainly the women I’ve spoken to in their 20s, they really left that idea of shame behind and, you know, it is what it is. And so, what if someone sees your tampon, you know, or your pad. Why is it a big deal?

Mandy: Yeah. Long may it continue.

Le’Nise: So, let’s talk a little bit about how your journey from drinking alcohol to becoming sober and what effect that had on your period and the quality of your menstrual health.

Mandy: Yeah, well, it’s really interesting, the cycles of change within women can be very kind of trigger points for maladaptive behaviour with alcohol and there’s so little data. You know, the first research was done in the 1990s of, you know, how alcohol affects the women’s body, which is just incredible, you know and because of periods because I was reading about it this morning, because beforehand, you know, we were seen as unstable data resources because we had such fluctuation in our change of emotional state. And so, they just disregarded women from studies about alcohol and just focused on men. And, you know, now, there’s so much in that, there’s the fact that now the research is mandatory, so we have a bit of data. The fact that, women on the whole, drink to change their mental state, whereas men drink for social bonding. So actually, the reason why we use alcohol is very different. There are periods within your cycle where you will be more triggered to drink than not because they call oestrogen the gas pedal for substance use because it influences the neurotransmitters in the brain and so dopamine, GABA, glutamate, which is all kind of related to alcohol use. So actually, I think it’s actually the luteal period which is when you’ve got more progesterone. That’s actually kind of a better time for women in terms of being able to stop drinking. I mean, there’s never gonna be the perfect day so, you know, I always say to people there will always be another party and another wedding, so do it today. But certainly, you know, in terms of triggering or relapsing, I don’t really like that word, but in terms of going back to re-learning is a nice phrase to drinking alcohol again and then stopping again.

Certainly, you know, before ovulation is a really bad point for women. There’s so much about that we’re learning about the craving brain and stress that modern women have, and that’s a lot of reasons why women are drinking too much. And also, we have generally more fat in our system and less water and so we have more likeliness to get dependent on alcohol than men because they have more water to kind of break down the alcohol in the system or so we don’t have an enzyme, or very little of an enzyme called dehydrogenase, which is what breaks down alcohol in the system and women have very little of that and men have much more. So actually, when you start getting data on women’s drinking, it’s extremely bad for women’s bodies.

And so how has stopping drinking affected my menstrual health? Well, I’ve had to learn different tools to look after my stress responses and my moods. You know, I don’t numb out my emotions with alcohol anymore. So that kind of self-awareness and using healthy strategies have helped. I certainly don’t get any menstrual pain anymore. I made the switch to cups since I’ve been sober so I think that that shows the way that I treat my body and what’s in my body and how I feel about respecting my body has been, you know, part of my sobriety and I feel very strongly, it’s been a massive journey of self-compassion and me letting go of shame, of, you know, past mistakes, me facing trauma, me looking after my mental health, because a lot of my drinking was to do with an underlying anxiety and depression. And so, all of that has had a positive impact on my body and so because of that, my menstrual health.

Le’Nise: So, you said so many interesting facts there. So, you said that oestrogen is the gas pedal for substance abuse. And that’s really interesting because if we split our cycle into two parts. So, the first part where the bodies really focused on conception, we have more oestrogen than we have more testosterone. And typically, this is actually the time when it’s a good thing to start something new because, you know, we’re more confident during this phase of our cycle, we’re more social, we’re more open to change. And so, I can see how that can be a negative as well, in terms of, if you have a tendency towards addiction or substance abuse that rise and that, we call it that kind of exuberance, can be a really negative thing.

Mandy: Yeah, I mean, they call it the party period. So, you know, it’s a part of that excess exuberance, etc. Whereas, I think it’s the second phase when you’ve got more progesterone in the system, it’s called the brake pedal because you’ve got increased GABA. So, you’re more relaxed and you’re more poised.

And actually, I was talking to a woman yesterday who said, using her own language because I don’t like to label people, she’s a recovering drug addict and alcoholic. And when she went into treatment, when she finally wanted to stop, she went in specifically for two months to have a full menstrual cycle, because, I mean, this is back in the 90s. She’s been sober for 18 years, but she felt like she binged, or she went to exccess, you know, within her cycle. And so, it was really important for her to have that two months in order to go through that full cycle, to be able to cope with all those parts of her period, which I just think is incredible insight. And again, it comes back to how we’re treating addiction and mental health in the fact that, as a woman, we need that time, so a program that’s a month long, it’s not going to be particularly accessible or useful. And it’s absolutely fascinating.

So, yeah, I mean, I think there’s a link between progesterone levels and neuroplasticity. Like, we’re more open to changing within that period as well. So, again, all the data’s really, really new but it’s certainly an area that I’m really interested to investigate more. And again, with the menopause, it’s it seems to be a very key point where women are drinking more because of this massive change. We have so much in our lives which is impactful and traumatic as women. Just giving birth is hugely traumatic. And if you look at the brain in the areas that are affected and susceptible to alcohol use disorders, you know, a brain that has any trauma is much more susceptible as well as a brain that has any kind of mental health issues. So, if you’ve got post-natal depression or you had a traumatic birth and then you’re kind of lonely and you’re stuck at home and you’ve got this whole change in your social situation and hormonally, you know, you’re extremely susceptible to alcohol use disorder. And this is a point where marketing and alcohol industry is like, drink wine, have pink gin, take strong alcohol. I think back in the day, I don’t think anyone realised it’s like smoking, no one realised how impactful it was. But certainly, you know, alcohol producers now know how detrimental it is to women’s health. And they still target us, which is why I guess part of being sober is that activism. And that’s what I love, because it’s like actually, I love myself enough to make good choices about my health. 

Le’Nise: You mentioned that the one woman you spoke to who, when she went into recovery, she built in her menstrual cycles. Do you build that way of thinking into your work with other women?

Mandy: We’re in the process of writing Our Sober School so that the first three months to help women with the change and part of that is looking at where you are in your female experience, and especially as a mum, are you a young mum with young kids or are your kids leaving home? And so, you’ve got that kind of, what do I do now? Are you perimenopausal? all of these things are impactful. So certainly, it will be part of the programmes that we’re building.

And I mean, the frustrating thing is, is there’s so little information out there. So, you know, every day I read something and I’m like, oh, my goodness, like, this is another thing. You know, what’s great about it is that we will keep having these conversations. But for sure, it’s hugely important. And for women to know that, okay, like watch out for this, like your oestrogen levels are rising and this is gonna be difficult for you, this part of your cycle. So maybe don’t go to that party that weekend, you know, just sort of go in your woman cave and stay in bed and look after yourself. Be mindful living of choosing when and what you want to do. And so much of women’s drinking is social anxiety and because we’re introverted or we’re highly sensitive and, you know, we’re putting ourselves in positions to be social when actually it’s not the right moment. And, you know, you can feel it. And one of the great things about when you stop drinking is that you become more connected to yourself. And you know you’ve got that feeling in the pit of your stomach of I don’t really want to go, but we ignore that, we ignore all these red flags of I’m too stressed or too tired or I’ve got period pains or whatever. And then we drink because we don’t really want to be there anyway. And when you really want to do something, you really want to do it. There’s no doubt in it, it’s just like, yeah, because it’s people that you love and its people that you trust, and you know you’re going to have a great time. And especially when you’ve got kids, we’re tired and it’s okay to be tired, we’re not we’re not 18 anymore and that’s okay. And the things we did when we were 18 were age appropriate but doing it when you’re 35 or 40 and a parent and responsible for others, it jars with our values, it’s like I know that I shouldn’t, I don’t want to be hung over because that’s not cool. You know?

Le’Nise: What you were saying about the alcohol marketing, and I think culturally in the UK there is a real link between alcohol for women and having a good time and then there’s also this connection with wine o’clock. So, you have kids and you’re just looking forward to that time when it’s culturally appropriate to have a glass of wine and that’s when you can start your drinking. And it’s been really interesting for me since I stopped drinking, to shift away from that, that idea that I need to use alcohol to tamp down my experience of having a child because having a child is so traumatic that I need to drink and moving away from that. You said something about alcohol being really detrimental to women’s health. And I think that’s a really important message because, we talked about hormones, but our livers are where we detoxify our hormones. And when we’re drinking, our body prioritises getting rid of alcohol over all of our liver’s other functions. I see this with my clients where when they actually reduce their alcohol intake or stop drinking altogether, it has a dramatic effect on their health, their hormones, their periods. So, I think it’s really important for women to really take a look in detail in the kind of cultural messages that they’re taking in and really ask themselves, well, why do I need to have a drink because it’s wine o’clock? Do I really want this?

Mandy: Yeah. I mean, people can do whatever they want, I’m not an abolitionist. Well, I don’t think the world would be a worse place if alcohol didn’t exist, but it is here. But it’s about having an informed choice, you know. And we don’t have that. And especially for women, people don’t know this stuff and even stuff I’ve read this morning, I’m like, oh, my goodness, I did not know that. I knew that we weren’t involved in the experiments about alcohol on the body before 1990 but I didn’t realise it was because we have periods and because that makes us unstable subjects, and who knows that? I mean, I read books about sobriety every day but the average person.

And what you said about the social messaging about it being a treat, it’s really, really important and, I’m quite lucky that I grew up, I’ve lived in France for the last 12 years where alcohol advertising is actually really heavily monitored and they can only advertise, it’s called the Loi Evin law, there’s no advertising on sports events for alcohol. And you can’t advertise alcohol to be aspirational or romantic or in any way seen as a treat or part of a social structure. The only thing you can advertise is, you know, where the wine comes from and the vineyard and the heritage of it, that’s all. You can’t use it in any way aspirationally. And so, when I come back to the UK, I have that comparison and my kids say, we’re on the tube and they’re like, oh, my goodness, Mummy, alcohol’s everywhere, and it is and we’re not immune to that kind of messaging. And since I’ve been talking with friends in France about the UK and the US and what’s going on with alcohol for women, they’ve said that they’ve started to notice how much drinking there in American series, people are watching TV and they’re having a glass of wine and you just don’t have that in French culture.

Not to say there aren’t problems with alcohol, there definitely are because it’s a drug and it’s addictive, so it’s still there but certainly the messaging and you know, mummy needs wine and I mean, I saw something yesterday which was for a tin of wine, and it says for your purse, for your desk and for the good days and for the bad or something, and it was like, that’s really wrong. You’re advocating using alcohol to self-medicate. So, there’s a lot of work to be done. But, you know, I really love that you’re interested in this. And, you know, I’d love for you to come on our podcast, because, I mean, it is hugely important for women to see that it does impact on their menstrual health, another good reason to be sober really.

Le’Nise: What would you say to a woman whose been listening to this podcast and she’s starting to question some of the messages that she’s internalised about alcohol and starting to think, oh maybe it is having an effect on my period and the amount of pain that I’m experiencing, what would you say a logical next step would be for her?

Mandy: Be a detective really, take an investigative point of view and just go day by day and go, right, okay, I mean, I will caveat that if someone thinks that they have alcohol dependency, if they are drinking a lot every day, if they struggle to go a day without alcohol, if they have got physical symptoms like shaking, if you are in any way concerned you should see your doctor because there could be withdrawal, it could be very severe for someone that’s dependent so you need help. If you associate as what we call a grey area drinker, so you drink, you know, at a wedding and never think about it between times but you’re not kind of drinking heavily throughout the day, for example, then take a day and see how it feels. Take another day. See how it feels. And just keep that going. If you try and project, right, I’m going to stop for a year, it’s incredibly intimidating. So just take it day by day and just go, oh, how does this feel, write a diary from the start date, how do I feel today? What was hard? What was good? And keep going. Get support, I mean, we have a free community that people can join. It’s really, really helpful to hear other women’s stories and be in connection with other women and then just keep going day by day and just recognise that the first month you will be detoxing, so it’s not the nicest period. So, keep going, after two months, how do I feel? What would three months feel like? And just keep that investigative spirit and note the changes really see like, oh, my skin looks better, my eyes are brighter, I don’t have as much pain when I get my period. That’s how I would approach it. Get support, document the changes and just have an open mind about it.

Le’Nise: What do you think about things like Sober January or Stoptober?

Mandy: I have mixed feelings. I mean, it’s very good because it’s a good excuse for people to say, oh, I’m doing dry January, because it’s quite hard to sort of start. It’s very good in terms of inquiry, like, how easy is this? How hard is this? You know, can I do it or not? And those are all indicators of perhaps where you are on the dependency scale, because, you know, alcohol dependence, it’s not just black and white. You could be very high functioning, doing really well and still have a drinking problem. I mean I, and I don’t class myself as an alcoholic, but I certainly had a problem with drinking and I certainly drank. I binge drank and I drank, to numb my emotions, etc. I think the difficulty in the kind of problem with month challenges is that people tend to just white knuckle it and, you know, just rely on willpower and then they get to the end of the month and it’s kind of like, oh, I’ve done my goal and then you just go back to exactly the same habit and that’s coming from personal experience too because I definitely did that many, many times and then it was like, oh, I don’t have a problem and then I just go back to how I was before. So, I think certainly it’s a good way of having a bit of inquiry but look at it as your first milestone, not a goal to achieve because when you achieve a goal, then you just go back to the same sort of behaviour as before. Whereas if it’s a milestone, it’s kind of like doing a marathon, you know, you’re like, yeah, one mile, keep going, two miles, two months, whatever, keep going. It’s good and bad and certainly some of the marketing around it is slightly interesting, especially Stoptober I think, which is for a cancer charity, and then you’ve got these messages which don’t talk about alcohol and cancer at all. Anything that gets people to investigate and ask questions I think is great.

Le’Nise: What you’re saying is they need to go into it with the right mindset and really look at it as an opportunity to change their habits rather than just thinking of it as one month of white knuckling it, as you say.

Mandy: Yeah, 100%. Yeah.

Le’Nise: Tell us a little bit more about the community that you founded, Love Sober.

Mandy: Kate and I are both coaches, so we work with one to one. I tend to work with people that have already stopped drinking and now it’s the what now question, it’s like I’ve done this, but then it’s, I want my life to represent this change. We’re writing a programme for a sober school which will be very much that sort of mindset and habit change which will be available midway through this year. We have the book that’s coming out in September, which is kind of a quick flip book for mums, because I think we’ve recognised that mums have a lot of stress, a lot of overwhelm, we’re caretakers, we’re looking after everyone else and we lose the ability to look after ourselves or never had it. And so, it’s a key area for women with their drinking. And then we have a free Facebook group, which is great. There’s about 250 women all around the world and we focus very much on positive sobriety. So, you know, it’s not about abstinence and this being really hard, it’s about, what do I get? So, you know, we have treat Friday. So, it’s like, okay, you know, what are you going to do as a treat today? Like have a nice bath or, buy yourself some fresh flowers or, meet a friend for coffee or go to bed early, change the sheets, clean your bed, have a nice cake, whatever. It doesn’t have to be that your life is miserable because you don’t drink. It’s about finding other things to add in. We focus on yoga and health and mental health and just peer support, you know, helping each other out, telling our stories, there’s no shame. It’s for sober and sober curious women. So, if you haven’t stopped drinking, but you think you want to then you’re most welcome to come and blog and we do a daily check in. So, for some people it’s day one again but you learn something, you know, what did you learn? Let’s crack on again, it’s fine. And I couldn’t count how many day ones I had., I had so many. I first stopped drinking when I was 25 and I’m now nearly 40. I stopped before I got pregnant with my first child. Then I stopped because I had a very bad period of depression and burn out from work when I was 32. And then I finally stopped when I was 37. So, you know, it’s not a path that is linear for many, many people and that’s fine because you keep learning and you keep just doing the days and you keep understanding something about yourself and you can always come back and try again.

Le’Nise: And so, if listeners could take one thing away from what you’ve been saying, what would you want that to be?

Mandy: Just that we have one precious life. There might have been things that suited you at one point in your life, but they don’t suit you anymore and that’s okay and we’re allowed to change, and you can change and, but you need support. So, whatever that looks like, it might not be our group, that’s fine, there are so many groups on Facebook. Go on Instagram and follow #sober or #soberlife or #lovesober and reach out and connect with people. The impact on your menstrual health will improve. I’m so happy that you’re sober and it’s helped you, so that’s amazing.

Le’Nise: So where can listeners find out more about Love Sober if they want to join the Facebook group, how do they do that?

Mandy: It’s probably easier just to go to the site so it’s www.lovesober.com and then there’s a click link to the community. You can join our newsletter. We just do one newsletter a month, which is just a little pep talk and then kind of what we’re up to, who’s on the podcast? We have a lot of guests on the podcast. I’m on Instagram @mandy_love.sober or our main page is @love.sober.co so you can just send us a message there.

Le’Nise: Brilliant. Thank you so much for coming on the show today, Mandy.

Mandy: Oh, my pleasure. Thank you. I really value what you’re doing and I think it’s amazing and I really, really hope this resonates with people and I’d love for you to come on the podcast and talk a little bit about the female experience and the female body and how what we put inside our body can impact on our menstrual health, I think it’s fascinating. Thank you.

Le’Nise: Thank you.

Period Story Podcast, Episode 17: Zachi Brewster, Take The Time To Understand Yourself

On this week’s episode of Period Story Podcast, I was so pleased to speak with Zachi Brewster. Zachi is a sex & pleasure educator, abortion & miscarriage doula and a freelance community manager for reproductive wellbeing organisations. She holds space for people to trust and feel at home in their bodies, starting the conversations that matter and building communities around our shared stories. 

We had a wonderful conversation about Zachi’s work, her first period story and how she learned about what is normal for her when it comes to her period.

She says that tracking and sharing about her period and menstrual cycle on Instagram has opened up her understanding. She says that IG’s the first app she’s used to diligently track her period, which she found very surprising.

Zachi says that she’s reduced her resistance to herself and the friction she felt towards her period. She says her doula training helped her drop this resistance and change her mindset around her period.

Zachi talks about her work as an abortion and miscarriage doula, which is so fascinating. She says these experiences can impact us years down the line and it’s so important to talk and get support so you can move forwards.

Finally, Zachi talks about her work as a sex and pleasure educator. She says that pleasure is a huge part of sex and that we need to talk about this more. She believes we’re doing young people a disservice by not talking about pleasure during sex education lessons.

Zachi says that it’s so important to take the time to understand yourself and how you can apply this understanding into different areas of your life: your menstrual cycle, your diet, your mood, your energy and I completely agree!

Get in touch with Zachi:










Zachi Brewster is a sex & pleasure educator, abortion & miscarriage doula and a freelance community manager for reproductive wellbeing organisations. She holds space for people to trust and feel at home in their bodies, starting the conversations that matter and building communities around our shared stories. 



Le’Nise: On today’s episode, we have Zachi Brewster. Zachi is a sex and pleasure educator, abortion and miscarriage Doula and a freelance community manager for reproductive wellbeing organisations. She holds space for people to trust and feel at home in their bodies, starting the conversations that matter and building communities around our shared stories. Welcome to the show.

Zachi: Thank you for having me. Thank you, lovely to be here.

Le’Nise: Let’s start off with the question I always ask. So, tell me the story of your first period.

Zachi: I feel like as first periods go; it was pretty calm. I remember I had cramps for like two days and it was a weekend. I remember that because I was at home, but I hadn’t realised it was cramps. I just knew that I had this stomach pain and it wasn’t going away and it’s making me upset. And then I think in the middle of the night, I got up and went to the loo and there was blood. And I was like, oh, I was in quite like a dozy state and so I went and wake my mum up and she was like, there’s pads in the bathroom. And I put one on and I went back to bed and that was pretty much it, it’s pretty boring, but I think that as first periods go, I’d rather that than like something public or explosive.

Le’Nise: How old were you?

Zachi: I think I was around 13. But I felt quite late because a lot of my friends had already started. My older sister had, most of my cousins at that time were older than me, so I felt like the last one. So, I was just like, please come, please come. And then when it did, it came and it was like, okay, fine, life goes on.

Le’Nise: And when you’re in the middle of the night, when your mum said, okay, there are pads in the bathroom. How did you know how to put it on?

Zachi: Because I’d actually tried on pads before, I think from school, but also having my older sister, my mum, my cousins, I knew more or less how they worked so it was quite normal and self-explanatory, I guess. And I think that I was just like I’ll deal with it in the morning and then that’s it.

Le’Nise: So, you said you deal with in the morning and then what did you do? Did you speak to your mum or your older sister?

Zachi: So, I spoke to my mum in the middle of the night. And then when I woke up, I think it really hit, but it was more very practical. I mean my mum’s always lovely and she was like, “Okay so now you do this, and you do this.” And I was like, “Okay, that’s fine.” But because I also felt like I was part of this club. I think I was pretty cool about it. I was like, “No, I’ve got this, I know what I’m doing.”

Le’Nise: And when you went to school because you said you were one of the last of your friends to get it. Did you have a conversation with your friends about it? And if you did, how did that go?

Zachi: I think I called my best friend at the time, the morning or the afternoon after. But I remember feeling like pretty cool, like, okay, this means like I’m an adult now or something, which obviously it doesn’t. But I think I probably had a conversation with my friends about it, but I think I played it down like, yeah, no, I just have got these pads in my bag because I’ve got my period or something like that. I’m pretty sure it was something like that. But yeah, I was quite happy. I was really happy when it started actually.

Le’Nise: Did that happiness continue as you, you know, started to get more and more cycles?

Zachi: Yes and no, because I’ve never really had sort of problems, I guess. I think the thing that I found confusing was what you’re taught in school, that it’s a 28 day cycle and you bleed for, I think we were told three to five days. So, from the first day up until now, which is almost like fifteen years of having a period, my period’s always been seven days long and relatively heavy and with clots. And so that was the thing that I struggled with in feeling maybe slightly abnormal or tired, like, really tired during my period of like a is this normal? Is it normal to bleed for this long? Is it normal to have such heavy periods? Are clots normal?

So all of that, that wasn’t a conversation with that sort of phrasing I had with my friends, I just knew that many of them had really short periods or suddenly like from when we were 15 were on the pill, either for like contraception or to manage their periods. So, I think it was like not having the wider conversation of the variations that you can have with your periods. I think I struggled with that because although I could talk to my mum and my sister, my friends. I think there’s a lot of assumption around periods that you just deal with it and you know what you’re doing and so you don’t complain too much because it’s like, well, everyone else gets on with it so I just have to get on with it, whilst at the same time you’re thinking am I normal? Is this how it’s meant to be?

Le’Nise: So, when did you learn about what normal actually is and what that meant for you in terms of your period?

Zachi: I would say I’m still learning, like I found my normal and I was like, okay, seven days doesn’t mean that, I mean, I was anaemic but it doesn’t mean that I’ve lost, like, all the blood in my body and clots happen. I used to have a lot more clots when I was younger. I don’t really get them anymore, but it was sort of like after a while and then having small conversations or someone mentioned something here or there and now especially that I’ve started tracking and sharing it on Instagram as well. I’ve had so many more, like seeing the response from people like, “Oh yeah, I get inner thigh pain and “Yeah like my vulva aches on day one but I never knew that was normal” or “Yeah I never connected my anxiety to the week before my period until now.” And I’m like, oh, all of these things are normal. Like I think when we think about periods, it’s the focus is very much on the bleed, rather the cycle. And I think if we look at the cycle, which is also, I’ve only been doing this for the last few months, so that’s why I said I think now I’m really starting to learn and I’m almost 28 and I’m like, well, why don’t we have these conversations when you’re younger or like when you’re a child before your period even starts? It would help, I think, many people feel a lot more comfortable and a lot more trusting and a lot more able to navigate their bodies, even with healthcare professionals, in knowing what to normal and then when you need to ask for help and what you’re actually asking for help for.

Le’Nise: What made you decide to start tracking your menstrual cycle?

Zachi: I tried with apps before, but I always forget. I think my first day of my period is when I’m bravest and I think I was on Instagram one day and I was like, oh, it’s the first day of my period. And I talk a lot about bodies and womb happenings, but I never really talked about periods. And I don’t know what I was talking about and I would say I’m feeling really bold and energetic today because it’s the first day of my period. And then a few people commented back, well me too, I was like, hey, would you be interested if I tracked it? So, the first app I really use diligently to track my period was actually Instagram, which is very surprising. A lot of the work I do has been very personal and intimate for myself, but what has helped me, and I realised one of the greatest tools of supporting each other is making it a conversation.

Le’Nise: You said that you feel really bold and brave on the first day of your period. Has it always been that way or is it something that you’ve just started to realise that happens on the first day of your period?

Zachi: Um, I think I’ve just started to realise. Also, because it’s not always like that every month, sometimes it’s very much like I do not want to speak to anyone today. Do not speak to me. Do not come near me. Just give me food and I’ll be fine. But I realise more and more that the more I’m aware of myself, I realise my energy drops before. The more I listen to my body and know what works for me, actually, I’m able to manage my energy levels. And so, when it comes, it’s like I’ve had this drop in energy, drop in mood. And then when it comes, it’s like every month I forget, even if I know it’s coming like, oh that’s why I was like that and then it’s like, yeah, okay, now we can move forwards. I think that’s where that energy also comes from in the sense of like, yeah, I’m starting to really enjoy my body and learning more about my body and so when these moments come up, I embrace them a lot more. And I realise having reduced my resistance to myself, if that makes sense, I guess I feel more entertained and curious about myself, which makes the process slightly easier and fun.

Le’Nise: That’s an interesting phrase you use in resistance to yourself. So, talk a little bit more about what that means?

Zachi: I’m saying all of this from having experienced very heavy, very painful periods. Although I was always happy about my period, I did resist it coming. I was like, “Why are mine this long? Why can’t I just move it to another time?” There was always some sort of friction with it. And I realised that I didn’t want to be on hormonal contraception to stop them completely. There’s something about feeding into my body, I knew deep down, like, do you want to feed into this? And there’s something about this that I know I like happening every month. But at the same time, it was sort of dread and irritation and everything around it, especially having heavy periods, like knowing, okay, if I’m out today, this is day three or day 4 so I’m gonna have to be in a place where I can have a nice ish bathroom where it’s so nice enough to change myself and look after myself. And it was those small things that were really like, I don’t want to have to deal with this. And so, I would resist having a period and resent it and not like myself through that whole process for my moods and I think that that just adds to it. One thing I’ve learned, which is sort of like, sorry, there’s a police car, if you can hear that in the background.

And one thing I’ve learned, especially through my training as a Doula and looking at birth is, I mean, it sounds very simplistic when you say it, but the resistance that you have, it doesn’t enable the process, doesn’t help the process, and it actually doesn’t reduce pain. If anything, it adds to mental weight and the physical load as well. So, I think finding ways to work with surges or contractions when you’re giving birth, help the process, understanding what’s actually going on at that time and through that process helps you work with your body. And so, as I was learning more in the birth world, I sort of tried to apply that to myself just through a period. And it sounds like from I mean, it sounds like there’s a world of difference and there is from like birthing a baby and having a period. But if we look at it in terms of mental state and mindset, and again, I’m talking from someone with relatively manageable period symptoms. I know it’s not like that for everyone, but I found at least for me, the change in mindset helped change my experience of my cycle each month completely.

Le’Nise: And so, the work that you do as a Doula and as an educator and tracking your cycle has changed the way that you view your period and menstrual cycle. How has it changed the way that you speak to others in your work?

Zachi: I think sometimes as an educator, you can learn information and then the way you put it out is like, so this is how it works. And I think I’m much less like that and more like actually you have to do the work and to feel into yourself and feel what works for you. And because I realise that that’s what I’ve had to do. If not, we go back to this old way of teaching periods like when you’re in school of, this is the cycle, this is how this works, this is how many days it’s going to be, this is the type of blood you should expect on your first day. When actually I think the aim is not to teach knowledge, but to teach people to understand their bodies. And the only way to understand your body is to know yourself. And so, I think it’s less about teaching sort of an ABC and more like, so what’s your language? What language does your body speak? And giving people the tools to access that for themselves. That’s how I think I’ve grown as an educator and how I feel that I can impact and support my community and the people I work with better.

Le’Nise: So, in terms of the work that you do, you do a lot of different things. How did you fall into this line of work?

Zachi: So, I studied food and lived in Italy for seven years and I studied at the Slow Food University, which is all about good, clean and fair food and looking at food heritage, food science, food culture. And I also did my masters in food design. And in between that time, I had a miscarriage, so I hadn’t really thought about my body before that. And it’s only from that experience that I suddenly thought, ah! I mean, I was forced to connect with my body through that experience. And it’s only through that experience that I realised that the experiences that we go through, at least this was my truth, with our wombs impact every area of our lives. And so, it was from my experience that I thought there is a lack of support and knowledge that really connects with people out there. And I think I started this as sort of like my own healing journey and then realised that this is interesting and necessary and how I want to be of use in my community, because there weren’t that many women, especially around me at the time, that I could see that we’re talking about this, especially black women, women of colour and queer people as well. And so, I’m very grateful, especially I think we’ve connected over Instagram that we are a lot more visible and that people can see us, and we can have these conversations. Like, if I thought about this six years ago, I’d never imagined that I’d be talking about periods with you on a Friday morning or doing the work that I do. So, I think that’s how I came into this world of wombs and periods and abortions and reproductive and sexual wellbeing and growth, I guess.

Le’Nise: I’ve never encountered an abortion and miscarriage Doula before and I know that when I had a miscarriage, I would have loved to have used a service such as this because I was lost at that time. So, this is about seven years ago, but it was still something that wasn’t really discussed. And now my thinking is so, so much different on it. And I talk about it a lot because it’s just, you know, it’s something that just happens, and we can’t sweep it under the carpet. How do you connect with people? How would someone be able to even access your services?

Zachi: So, I’m mostly active on Instagram. My website is coming, I’ve said that for the past few months, but it is. Most of the people I’ve worked with have been through Instagram and through word of mouth because it doesn’t pay my bills and I didn’t start it as a service to make money. It’s more sort of I know I need to maintain myself, but that’s why I do such a range of things, because each of them like fills my heart a bit and also my head. And I’m learning and I’m supporting. And so, for now, I’m happy like that. I’m looking to make more resources so that people can support themselves if they don’t want to speak to me. But yes, that’s how everyone’s come to me. And the support for each person is different with miscarriage. Sometimes it’s a few months or even like a year down the line that people get in touch with me, because I think at least for me, that was as if I look at from the day it happened to when I started to feel back to myself, that was almost a two year process, which I think for some people that maybe haven’t experienced anything like that sounds a bit crazy, but that’s how it is for many people. And a similar thing, a similar sort of time scale with abortion, although some people would get in touch maybe before if they’re planning because they just need to talk it out with someone. Both of them intimate experiences and although you may have a good support network around you, sometimes it’s nice just to speak to someone that’s completely outside. And I just want to say I never offer advice on what should be done. I’m very much a listening ear. And as a Doula it’s in the birth sense or postnatally, it’s someone that’s there to support emotionally and physically, then that’s what I do with abortion and miscarriage. And a lot is talking because I think talking is very therapeutic. But it’s more tailored to help people also feel in touch with their bodies as well through these experiences.

Le’Nise: So, if I was to get in touch with you for, say, an abortion or after an abortion or a miscarriage, can you just talk through step by step how the process would work?

Zachi: So, I always do an initial 15-20 minute call with someone just for them to tell me where they’re stuck and what they need and their story. And that’s for me just to listen and to explain my services and them from there I will always write a follow up email of this is how I can help because I think also, I think it’s a two-way street. Like we said when we started this call, it’s nice to see someone and connect with someone. And I always leave space for if they don’t feel they connect with me and also for myself, if I don’t feel I connect with them. And so that initial call gives me time to also see, do they need help maybe from an actual therapist? Is this bigger than what I’m able to support with? How I can help them if I can’t, to signpost them and also for them to have a chance to sit with, is this the type of support I need? And do I want it from Zachi so then I send off a follow up email.

Most people I’ve worked with has been through Skype or Zoom just because of people in Cambridge, people up in Manchester as well and you can’t sort of organise a meeting one hour every week or whatever it is. And then from there, I’ll see what the needs are. So, when it comes to abortion, it might just be one or two calls before an abortion, like how can I prepare myself mentally? How can I prepare myself physically? For many people after abortion I suggest a four-week programme that I do, which consists of 45 minutes to one hour calls weekly. And it’s a chance for them to talk as well as for me to share exercises and to practice these exercises of getting in touch with their bodies. I have a sort of skeleton and then adapt it to people’s needs, whether they’re pre, post, how post, whether it’s just a listening ear or whether they need maybe more support in connecting with their bodies. And I like to keep that pretty flexible because it’s such a personal and intimate experience that I can’t say this is the course and follow it and it’s a six-week course and by the end of it, you’ll feel like this. So, for many people, it’s 4 weeks then some people we extend to 6 weeks. Some people I’m still in touch with that we’ve become friends. It’s a whole mix of experiences and people.

Le’Nise: It must be so fulfilling the work that you do. Seeing the change that you can elicit in people through just the questions you ask and the tailored structure that you provide.

Zachi: When I think about it, I actually feel quite emotional and also quite sad that it is not a common service. And I know that services are stretched, and I know that after a miscarriage and abortion, sometimes, not even all the time, you’re offered counselling but it’s so generic. And I know it goes deeper than book a few phone calls with an NHS counsellor. So, I’m very happy I do what I do. But I think I would love to find ways and I am working with people to find ways to make it more accessible in terms of, this is something that is so normal in our community that you can speak to someone and I would also say that there are a lot of Doulas out there that do this work, but to anyone that’s looking, I would say, for support around this, of course you get in touch with me, but if you don’t vibe with me as well, do reach out to other Doulas and look for Doulas because some of them it might not be the first thing you see on their website but a lot do offer abortion support. Maybe not like I do, but there are a growing number of resources and it’s still not that much.

But we are growing in this area of support and I hope to see it flourish in the future because it’s very much needed. I mean, these experiences sometimes impact us years down the line, but like even speaking to women like from 10, 20, 30 years ago, they had a miscarriage or an abortion and it’s still this stuck energy in them and it’s impacted on relationships, children, parenthood, how they feel about their own bodies, it’s impacted on sex, that’s how I got into talking about sex and pleasure because I realised that these experiences can impact our sexuality, like even feeling sexual for yourself, some people can’t touch themselves for ages or indefinitely after. And all of this is connected, your self-esteem, how you feel at work, your mental health. And that’s why I think that it should be a key part of reproductive health services, I think.

Le’Nise: And you mentioned your work as a sex and pleasure educator. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Zachi: So, I run womb workshops, I talk on panels, I’m creating programmes for schools now as well. I came about it in a sort of roundabout way, but I realised like with period education, that sex education, I did a course a little while back and I said to the tutor, it was a sex educators course and I said to the tutor, but like, there’s no talk about pleasure in any of this. And it was a really great course, it was a fantastic course. And they were like, yeah, we don’t really talk about pleasure. I was like, how can you not talk about pleasure? When actually I think focusing it from that angle, which is why the main reason that many people are sexually active with themselves, with partners is for pleasure. And for me, it’s like with period talk, we don’t talk about the range of what is normal within the period or the range of experiences. We’re doing a huge disservice, especially to young people, if we negate that that is a huge factor of sex. And I think coming at  these issues, arguments, for want of a better word, from just a very base level, which is something that we don’t often do, can increase engagement and education and learning so much more, and I realise that I’ve worked mostly with adults and older people talking about this. And I realise that many people have never spoken about pleasure and I’m like, well, you’re like 50 and you’ve never spoken about pleasure, but you’ve been having sex for like the past 30 something years and it’s like no, I’ve never thought of pleasure. It’s like, oh, okay, we really need to have this conversation. We really need to have these conversations.

Le’Nise: Why do you think sex and pleasure have been so divorced from each other in terms of education and even think about education that we get around sex in schools. Why do you think those conversations have been so separate?

Zachi: I know it’s because sex education is tricky in terms of society, in the sense that especially with young people, it’s about keeping STIs low and teen birth rates low. And so, I think the fear is if you talk about pleasure, you’re telling them that they should have sex because it can be pleasurable. And so, I think that there’s a fear and maybe people haven’t found the right way to both educate and please the schools and parents of talking about pleasure. And I think those are the two main fears of teachers, school governors, school boards, the general education sector of no, we can’t talk about pleasure because then young people want to do it, like young people want to do it anyway. So, if they want to do it, at least let’s give them the tools to communicate.

And talking about pleasure is not just so that young people have better sex, it impacts communication. If you know what works for you, you can communicate that to your partner, and you can also communicate when things aren’t working for you. So, it filters down into from what pleasure means to me, from like looking at erotic material, from porn to communication to body literacy. It encompasses all of that. It’s not teaching young people how to have better orgasms. Like, no, we need to move forwards from that point of view. So that’s what I hope to bring to the table.

Le’Nise: And you mentioned, you know, looking at erotic material and porn. Have you seen examples of where you have been doing this education work and it shifted the way that people think young people think about sex away from this kind of what you see in porn to a more realistic depiction of sex and pleasure?

Zachi: So, yes, to your answer, I think because we don’t talk about it. So young people’s go to is porn or social media. When actually we could even have discussions about an okay like erotic material, like what about reading a book? And I’m not talking 50 Shades of Grey. There are many like erotic literature on there’s apps now. So, I also wrote an erotic story for Ferly, which is a women’s pleasure app, or there’s Dipsea. There’s audio erotica and that’s gentle. I find that talking about those two ways of accessing material outside of visually is a much gentler way because it allows young people to use their imagination. And although you are reading and absorbing information, you can create a scene in your head and that’s a much healthier way of viewing and creating ideas around sex, rather than saying watch this, condition yourself to only like this, or that this is the only way. And you can have so much more fun with your own mind or saying to young people or this applies to anyone at any age that has never thought about this before, like, okay, write a list, you don’t have to share it with anyone. And I would never also do this in a classroom, just as a caveat. But to say, aside from the porn you watch because most people have watched porn by the time I think the stats say by the time a young person is 13 or 12, they’ve seen some form of porn, whether it’s in social media or someone sharing it in a WhatsApp group or actively seeking porn. But I think that asking young people to use their imaginations and to create scenarios or ideas for themselves puts them in a position to understand themselves more, feel maybe less weird, and be conditioned less. And yes, have better sex and feel better in their bodies. I think that that’s the that’s the whole point. But a lot comes down to self-esteem and if you’re just consuming material, that’s someone else’s idea then you have no chance, especially at that young age, to form your own ideas around it. And I think that that leads also into sexuality, from body image to sexuality to looking at body shape and body positivity or body neutrality is what some people are looking at now. If you only see one or two types of people or two types of relationship, then that leaves no space for your own exploration and your own sense of self.

Le’Nise: What would you say to a parent who knows that they need to have this conversation with their child? So, my son is 6, I talk to him about sex, but not on nearly on the level that we’re talking about today, it’s too advanced. But I know that in, say, four or five years, I’m going to have to have more detailed conversation. What sort of tools would you give to a parent like me that would have to have this conversation with their child?

Zachi: I think sometimes we focus a lot on sex and its more sort of the conversations that come before that. Like you said, the conversation we’re having right now is too much for a 6 year old. He probably doesn’t even get half the things we’re talking about, but it comes before that in the sense of communicating, like creating a space where your son, your child is able to communicate freely with you about their bodies. What’s changing? Even like looking at different the body as a whole, not just sexual organs, like look how your feet have grown or like now you’re this age and keeping it age appropriate. So, the things that are age appropriate, like kids understand their bodies and they can also understand the differences that come with age, but I also think that following your son’s lead and there’s a lot of fear of when do I have this conversation? And some of it is like your son will let you know when he’s ready to have this conversation.

But it first starts with creating that environment where you can have this conversation and the questions will come. And when they come, one thing we learned in our course, which I really liked is, when a question is asked by a child always respond, but you don’t always have to answer directly. And that gives you space to make it appropriate for that child in that situation, in that moment, but always respond and never say, no, no, no, we can’t talk about that because that shuts them down. It starts a shame cycle. And then it’s like, what? I can’t have these conversations. So, follow your son’s lead. It doesn’t have to be a sit-down conversation, just answer questions as they come, and they will come.

Le’Nise: And what would you say to a parent who is less open to sexuality themselves, but knows that they need to have these conversations but feels quite typically British in the way they feel quite embarrassed about having such an intimate conversation?

Zachi: Um, I think making it normal, so I know there’s been a huge movement. I feel like it shouldn’t be a movement, but it is in terms of diversity in children’s books. So, if you are buying books even for your children, like maybe buying a book where the parents are not heterosexual or something like that without making a huge point of it. But having that book is something that you’ve bought, and you’ve decided to read with your child is like, oh yeah, it’s two dads or two mums but the story goes on. And I think that’s what saying before, like there’s a fear of, this is going to be a big, hard conversation when actually it’s just about making these conversations very normal because kids I mean, they’re asking you like, ‘why is the sky blue?’ Next minute and then they’re asking you what’s for dinner? Like two seconds later and you haven’t even finished in your head. Kids aren’t caught on this like, I need to know this answer now, things flow through their brains so fast that it’s just about making these things normal, like, oh, those two guys are holding hands. It’s like, oh, yeah, they’re holding hands like, I hold hands with my partner or whoever, maybe they’re in love. And then you keep the conversation moving. It’s just about making these things normal from periods to sex to relationships and sexuality.

Le’Nise: So, make it normal so we can remove the shame around these conversations and topics. So, you’ve said a lot of really amazing pearls of wisdom during our conversation, if listeners take one thing away from this conversation, what would you want that to be?

Zachi: I would say take the time to understand yourself whether you can apply that into different areas of your life. It can be from looking at how your diet affects you to looking at your period over a month, but not just the bleeding part, but looking at your moods over that month, like is it related to your period? And the more you track yourself, whether it’s food, your cycle, sexually, you could even track the moments over time when you feel super turned on or horny and be like is that related to my cycle? Is that related to my mental health? So, it’s about joining the dots, but I would say try to understand yourself to sort of like one variable that you want to track and then look at that variable in relation to other things and choose what’s of interest to you at the moment? What is an area that you think you want to improve or understand more and pick that? It doesn’t have to be a huge tracking thing of everything of your life from like your diet, your cycle and how many times you did exercise or didn’t that week. Start small and the rest will fall into place.

Le’Nise: Where can listeners find out more about you and the work that you do?

Zachi: Head over to my Instagram, which is @zaz.brw and then when my website is live, it will also be shared there.

Le’Nise: Great. So, they can contact you and find out more about your work and how to use your services?

Zachi: Yeah.

Le’Nise: Brilliant. Thank you so much for coming on the show. It’s been so amazing hearing your story and hearing about the work that you do.

Zachi: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Period Story Podcast, Episode 16: Lina Chan, We Should Celebrate Our Bodies

On today’s episode of Period Story podcast, I had the pleasure of speaking with Lina Chan, the founder and CEO of Adia, a digital health platform empowering women through their fertility journey. 

Lina shared her fertility journey which led to three children and two angel babies and said this is what inspired her to start her company. 

We discussed the story of Lina’s first period, with Lina explaining that because she comes from a conservative Asian family, nobody had talked to her about what to expect. She said found her period embarrassing and shocking, especially growing up in Brazil, where swim classes were held year round in school.

Lina describes the life changing moment when she discovered how she could hide her period. She says now this is one of the taboos she aims to break down with her company, Adia. 

We had a very honest discussion about breaking down the taboo of discussing miscarriage. Lina says that women shouldn’t underestimate the impact that miscarriage can have emotionally and that it’s very important to talk about it and seek the support you think you need.

Lina says that we should celebrate our bodies and I completely agree! 

Get in touch with Lina:












Lina’s Bio

Lina spent most of her career working as a private equity investor in the UK. After experiencing pregnancy loss and difficulty conceiving, she realised the need to build more companies by women for women to help make health more proactive. She is now the founder CEO of Adia, a digital health platform empowering women through their fertility journey, and mother to three children and two angel babies.


Show Transcription

Le’Nise: On today’s episode, we have Lina Chan. Lina spent most of her career working as a Private Equity Investor in the UK, after experiencing pregnancy loss and difficulty conceiving, she realised the need to build more companies by women for women to help make health more proactive. She is now the founder and CEO of Adia, a digital health platform empowering women through their fertility journey, and mother to three children and two angel babies. Welcome to the show.

Lina: Thank you so much for having me.

Le’Nise: So let’s start off by getting into the story of your first period. Can you tell us what happened?

Lina: Yeah, I got my period fairly early. I think I was 10 at the time, which was kind of early, I think, when I was growing up. I don’t know. I feel like now girls are having their periods earlier and earlier. So at school, I hadn’t yet learnt about it. And I come from a very conservative Asian family and nobody had talked to me about it. So I remember just one day going to the bathroom and seeing blood and just really being scared and not quite knowing what to do. And my first instinct was to feel really embarrassed. And I remember just putting a lot of, I rolled up a bunch of paper and put it there, but then it went away like literally it was just a day and it went away. And then it didn’t come back again for a few more months, like three or four months. And then it came back and I did the same thing. I didn’t even have pads. It was, I think, a bit serendipitous because my sister had come to visit and she’s a lot older than me. She’s twenty two years older than me and she brought it up and I was like, oh, my gosh, yes. I’ve been having these these bleeds and I don’t know. And she was the first one who gave me a pad. So and it’s kind of like, oh, well, you know, you’re going to get this or I’m going to get get these things for you a that was it. So there wasn’t really much of a conversation. And then I learnt it at school. So it was all a bit shocking.

Le’Nise: You what you said you were embarrassed. Why did you feel embarrassed?

Lina: I don’t know. I think it’s because it felt like a private area. You’re always taught that it’s a very private area and it was something that I had not ever thought of. And I think it’s because also it’s stained. Yeah. There was a lot of shame associated with it and it’s interesting to think of why, already at that young age, I felt shame with that. Because I even remember, once I started having periods, I didn’t want to tell anybody because I must have been one of the first two girls in my class to get my period. So I didn’t want other girls to know that I had my period. I grew up in Brazil where it’s very hot, so you pretty much have swim classes around the year. I remember just being terrified of swimming because I would swim with my period because I didn’t want to tell people that I had my period and I couldn’t swim. And it would always be this like, you know, dashing out of the pool, running to the bathroom, it was awful. Months and months of dealing with it. I remember always struggling with it.

Le’Nise: So you grew up in Brazil. There is a culture of being outdoors, swimming, and you were one of the first in your class to get your period. So the support of your sister, who was twenty two years older, must have been really helpful, to kind of navigate you through this time.

Lina: Well, yes and no, because she didn’t live with me. She was already married and she already had her kids. So she only gave me the pads and I didn’t really have anybody else to talk to. And my mum didn’t talk about it. You know, Mum kind of didn’t really kind of engage with any of that. And so I actually didn’t speak to anybody about it until more of my closer friends had their periods and then that became more of a topic amongst us and we then discovered things together. So we discovered the tampons together, I remember a friend of mine going, well, you can use this to help you with the swimming and I tried it, but I just couldn’t get it. I couldn’t get it in. And I was like, I just can’t. I was like, maybe I don’t even have, like, a hole. But I think because I was so tense that I couldn’t put a tampon in. She had travelled to the U.S. and come back with those plastic applicators rather than just the cotton ones that you had to insert with your finger. And so she’s like, try this one. And then I managed to use a tampon and I remember that was completely life-changing because suddenly you could hide that you have periods. It was only really through my friends that I discovered more about periods and how to manage it and all that.

Le’Nise: And so you were all kind of learning about it at the same time helping each other. If you think back to what you were learning: were there any myths that you were kind of circulating among you where you think back and think that wasn’t right or why did we talk about that?

Lina: I think there’s still a lot of feeling ashamed of it or embarrassed about it and for really kind of no reason. I don’t know what made us all kind of feel like we had to hide it. I think part of the reason was because it always felt like a topic that you couldn’t talk about openly or be proud of and kind of celebrate as being very feminine. There was always something that was associated with being dirty, being smelly, being yucky. It’s almost as if you had a condition. And I think that’s an issue around a lot of women’s health topics. It was also definitely one that I encountered when I had problems conceiving and having pregnancy loss.

And that’s the reason why it was a big push for me to start Adia. It was around breaking down a lot of these taboos that women face. And I think it starts at the very early stages of periods and it happens over and over again as women go through their different life stages. So, you know, you start with periods and being ashamed of those and if you have period problems like endometriosis, PCOS, fibroids, you struggle with it in silence if you’re not comfortable talking about it at work. It’s so debilitating. All the way to struggling to conceive, having pregnancy loss, blaming ourselves, not feeling comfortable, not getting the right support, all the way to menopause and women struggling with those symptoms, not getting the support. So I think now, and that’s why I was saying how I love what you do, is because I think we need to as a society and as women, completely change the dialogue around women’s health and these things to actually be a lot more celebratory, so that when my daughters kind of, you know, go through this phase that I went through, they don’t feel ashamed and they don’t feel like they need to hide about it or they need to speak to their friends in secret, that it’s something that they should be very proud of.

It’s funny, we were we were working with this charity, Bloody Good Period, and we were doing a campaign. So we were trying to figure out like what are some social stigmas, a social norms that we want to break down. And one of the questions one of the girls asking is like, “Do you still hide your tampon or your pad when going to the bathroom?” And I was like, “Oh, my gosh, I do.” I’m working so much with women’s health? It’s just so subconscious. I do, I roll it and push it under my sleeve and I go off to the bathroom. It is still very much ingrained, even in us who might be kind of a bit more progressive already in the way we think. So I think a lot of it was around being such a taboo subject.

Le’Nise: Are there any other taboos that you think we need to break down in order to be more celebratory about our periods?

Lina: Definitely. So what is it? Celebrate that it’s life itself rather than something that you’re  ashamed of. I think sex around periods, I think that’s something that girls struggle in and try to figure out what does all that mean? You know, which then goes to talking about sexuality, talking about fertility. I think that can be the early stages of kind of like the next phase, that’s something women should talk about more and share more and break taboos around that.

Le’Nise: And I just want to go back a little bit to what you were saying earlier. So you were having these conversations with your friends and learning along with each other. And then as you got older, so went into high school, then university. What other things did you learn about your period and what were your discoveries then? And how did you educate yourself?

Lina: So in the teens it’s kind of like the managing it. I think it ends up being sex and contraception, was the next big kind of period health, period management of learning. I remember I tried all these different types of contraceptive pills and I just had such bad side effects from mood swings to hair loss to the point that I just stopped, didn’t take them at all. And I think there’s, again, a lack of knowledge around the contraceptive pill for women and which ones work for them. And I think for a very long time women have taken it and struggled with the symptoms and just kept getting fobbed off as like, “Go take three months for your body to adjust.” But like some women just don’t and it needs to be looked into more. And, you know, there are companies now trying to match women’s DNA or kind of like existing conditions to the right contraceptive pill, because I think people are starting to recognise that there is a link between your hormones, your mental health, physical health, and kind of then how to manage that and then, I think the next phase of taboos and and things that women can learn is, OK, so now I want to start having families and getting off the contraceptive pill, re-learning what their cycle is like, because sometimes, because they’re on the pill, it’s a quote unquote artificial cycle and you get off it and you don’t quite know when your period is going to come back.

So you’re kind of totally re-learning your body and then something that you used to hate having is the one thing you keep looking forward to so that you can conceive every month. So then again, it becomes like this, this relationship that you have with your body and it can either feel very comfortable or very foreign. And because I think somebody who conceives it’s a nice thing, it happens quickly, but for somebody who can’t conceive, it becomes a source of anxiety every month. And we talk about it in Adia about women who struggled for a very long time that it can almost feel a little bit like trauma, because every month, that period reminds you of something that you don’t have and that you really want. So, again, it’s a struggle with your own body.

Le’Nise: And with you having been on hormonal contraception and did you have any bad side effects?

Lina: Yeah, had terrible ones, that’s why I got off it. I think I tried three and then with one and I lost a lot of hair. I mean, I remember they were coming out in chunks. And it’s funny because now at Adia, I was talking to a woman who was working on a business to help match women to contraceptives and she was like, “Oh, so you have the blah blah gene” and I was like, “Finally, 20 years later, someone figured out why I kept losing hair when I go on a certain pill.” And then the other two, I just kept getting extremely bad emotional side effects, so like crying for no reason. I was like, “Why am I putting up with this? Why am I doing this to myself?” So then I just never went on the pill. I literally tried it for a year and then never, ever went on it again.

Le’Nise: Was at the end of your journey with hormonal contraceptives?

Lina: Yeah. I never went on hormonal contraceptives. So it was a lot of condoms or just avoidance and using the tracking system.

Le’Nise: Ok. And so how did you learn about that? Was it trial and error?

Lina: I mean, I guess because I never went on the contraceptive pill. I’ve just been very lucky with an extremely regular cycle. My cycles were always 27, 28 days. The only time that I went to a very irregular period was when I started working and it was extremely stressful. I worked around the clock, I barely slept. So I don’t think my body even knew what was day and night. And I was getting my periods every two weeks. I was too engrossed with my job that I didn’t really think much about it. But then when things calm down, it became regular again. So I kind of always had a sense of when I was ovulating. And I kind of became quite smart about my fertile signs and what to look out for. So I became very tuned in with my cycle, which has helped me in other ways, even now with food. I kind of listen to my body, I can tell when I’m not feeling quite right. So I could usually predict when I was going to start bleeding.

Le’Nise: You said you were quite tuned in and now you’re quite tuned into your cycle and with food as well. What do you mean by that?

Lina: So when we started trying, I struggled. So I lost my first two pregnancies, one fairly late stage at six months and then managed to conceive and I had three kids but during that phase of loss, I really, kind of stopped trusting my body. I didn’t really connect with it and I think it was the trauma. And I went to the doctors to figure out what it was. But during that time of trying and failing, I needed to learn how to trust my body again. And I did it through yoga and I did it through nutrition. So I became a yoga teacher and I did a couple of nutrition courses. And I think all of that was so that I couldn’t kind of feel a little bit more empowered and a little bit more in tune to something that can become can become very foreign. Something that had always given me what I had put into it. I was very athletic. I always did a lot of exercises. So I knew that, OK, if I train I could reduce my time by X. Like what you put in, I could get out like I understood my body. But during pregnancy, I just didn’t. Whatever I did, just didn’t do what I wanted it to do. So I just needed to kind of calm down and and relearn it and I did it through exercise and nutrition. So yoga really helped me kind of move with consciousness, it taught me about mindfulness, it taught me to sit with my feelings. And nutrition kind of helped me because I did, you know, I was athletic, I pretty much just eat whatever I wanted. I never was quite conscious about what I was putting into my mouth. But during that phase, I learned about the vitamins. I learned about what made me feel good, what didn’t make me feel good, when was I eating for anxiety and when was I eating mindfully? And all of that kind of just helped me be more present and more grateful for what I had in my body. And then we went on to conceive and all that. So it was through that journey that I learnt to trust it again and I did it through those two venues.

Le’Nise: You sound amazingly tuned in and it sounds like you’ve been on this incredible journey and of understanding not only what nourishes you physically and nutritionally, but also being really open to what’s going on with your body. Amazing. Absolutely amazing. How long was this journey for you?

Lina: Oh, gosh, so three years from the first time we tried to having my first daughter was three years because we had the two losses and conceiving between them took almost a year each. Our first was born at 32 weeks, so she was born quite early, that was a fairly stressful kind of fourth trimester but then we had two others in quick succession. So from beginning to three children, it took us five years. But to get from beginning to first child, it took us three years. So, yes, the other two came very quickly thereafter. I think it’s you know, part of it was I had a lot less anxiety around it. I knew how to take care of my body to prepare for pregnancy. I also knew that because I had struggled, we started trying six months after me having one. And I think a lot of women prefer to wait a year and I think the recommendation is to wait for a year. But, you know, I was of my age and I that I had struggled. So we tried sooner and then we were lucky to conceive sooner. But I took much better care of my emotional and physical health in the subsequent pregnancies.

Le’Nise: What would you say to women who are going through similar things, who maybe have had a miscarriage and who are trying to conceive again?

Lina: I mean, I think the first thing is to really not underestimate the impact that it can have on you emotionally and to talk about it. It is something that women feel really ashamed about, but it’s very important to talk about it and seek the support that you think you need. One of the doctors that work with us, she actually just released a study last week and was picked up by quite a few of the newspapers showing that one in seven women who experienced even just one miscarriage go on to develop PTSD. And that can have really big consequences. And sometimes we don’t even realise that we have it. So I think recognise that it will affect you emotionally, so seek help. I think, you know, it took me too long to recognise that I needed that support. And I think learn to trust yourself again and your body again and find whatever works for you to feel grateful again about the body that you have. Some people practice mindfulness, some people talk to friends, some people practice gratitude, some people dive into nutrition. Find what works and reconnect with your body so that you can start trusting it again and really get informed. The NHS makes you miscarry three times before you seek a specialist but if you trust your gut, if you think that you want to see a doctor sooner, try to find that support if you can, because there are tests that they can run, there are things that they can do without having to make you wait for three miscarriages. And the more empowered you are with information and the more balanced you can feel mentally and physically, I think the better chances we arm ourselves with.

Le’Nise: Talking about taboos. Do you think that miscarriage is still as much a taboo in terms of talking about miscarriages as it used to be?

Lina: Yeah, I think so. I think there’s definitely waves of it becoming more talked about. So I think it’s positive, it’s definitely moving in the right direction. But I think it’s still is taboo. And I still think that a lot of women attribute shame and faults to themselves. And I think one of the key things is, a lot of women when they fall pregnant, they’re told not to say anything for the first twelve weeks. But that’s when the majority of miscarriages will happen, like 85% of miscarriages, I think it’s 85% of miscarriages happen in the first twelve weeks. And so typically you haven’t told anybody at work, you’ve probably felt rotten because it’s the worst 12 weeks of the pregnancy. And then when you go to the hospital, you know, if you’ve miscarried, they’ll be like, okay, just go home and try again. So we haven’t set it out in a way that women can feel supported during those first 12 weeks, so actually, it’s quite hard. And so then you’ve gone from not telling anybody, to then saying, oh, I’ve miscarried. So women find that it’s a pretty big step, it’s hard to bring that topic up. So I think one of the first things we should think about is why is this this 12 week rule? We should just, you know, recognise that it’s something that’s very common, happens to one in four pregnancies in women. So it’s funny because it’s more common in circles of women who have struggled or tried because as soon as they get pregnant they say, they say, and they fully acknowledge that there’s a very high risk of losing it but you’re recognising it, it’s not something that you’re trying to hide. So I think there needs to be more to be done. But, you hear as more celebrities talk about it, as more women like me and you talk about women’s health, I think then you’re starting to move the needle for the next generation.

Le’Nise: Yeah, absolutely. I remember when I had a miscarriage before I had my son and I wasn’t sure what was happening, but I didn’t know who to talk to because I thought, “Well, okay, like, it didn’t happen for me this time so I will keep trying.” But I think back to how I was feeling at the time and I remember feeling sad, but also thinking, “Well, I shouldn’t really talk about it because you know what’s the point?”

Lina: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I think that’s why this study is so important, it shows that even if you just miscarry once, you have such a higher chance of actually having a mental distress out of it. So it is something that we should talk about and make women more aware of it. I mean, I think even just the awareness that it could be quite common that it could happen to you and if it happens, these are the things that you need to do. I think this is really key.

Le’Nise: Talk to me about your company and everything you’re doing to support fertility and support women as they go through their journey. Can you tell us a little bit more about what you do?

Lina: Yeah, sure. So when I was going through all the things that I went through, there were two kind of big pain points for me. One, I didn’t feel like I could access the doctors that I needed and two, the information that I got was so confusing. So that’s the two main things that we try to really break down, the barriers we try to break down. So women can come onto our platform, they create an account and they can immediately speak to women’s health specialists. And they range from obstetricians, fertility specialists and nutritionists, clinical psychologists. And we really recognise that it’s important to support somebody from medical information, but as well as nutrition and mental health. So there’s no GP gatekeeper, there’s no waiting three times to miscarry in the NHS. You can come and ask the questions, whichever question it is. And it’s through that information that we can really empower women, and because you’re actually asking experts in the field , it takes out all the noise because you know that the information that you’re getting is trusted. And that’s the key thing that we really want to help women with, because I think the more we can help women get the right support, the quicker they are in that journey. And then we really hope that through the articles that we publish, the community that we’re building, that we’re starting to break this taboo around it, so more and more women can talk about it, feel comfortable getting the support that they need. And then lastly, what we also do is we provide hormone tests and sperm tests that women can take at home because, again, it’s something that the NHS will typically ask you to wait for quite a long time before qualifying for those or if you go privately, it’s extremely expensive. So we’ve partnered with companies that are able to really reduce the price and we can just do it in the comfort of your home. So it’s really kind of disrupting the way health is delivered now to make it a lot more accessible to women.

Le’Nise: And what made you decide to start this amazing company?

Lina: My personal journey, I think it was kind of going through it and just wanting to help women have an easier journey than I had. And my husband, who’s a co-founder, he’s a tech entrepreneur and he’s like, I just don’t understand how technology hasn’t helped reduce the price and the barriers to this, we need to do something. So it’s very much my personal passion and a personal pain point that we wanted to change other people’s journey and improve that for them.

Le’Nise: Do you have any success stories that you can share?

Lina: Yeah, I mean we don’t promise people they’re gonna get pregnant. I think it’s more what we promise is that you’re going to feel supported, you’re going to get the right information and we’re gonna help you then liaise with the right people that you need to. But we’ve had quite a few women come and say that they’ve gotten pregnant or that they’ve felt very supported, that they were able to access services that they hadn’t thought about before. Some women had taken our test, discovered that they had hormonal issues that they weren’t aware of and that enabled them to get the right care. So it’s really kind of heartwarming to get those messages from our users.

Le’Nise: Is it UK only or international?

Lina: Now we have users from like 35, almost 40 countries. So people have found us, they come and they chat with our experts, they read the content. So it’s worldwide.

Le’Nise: Oh, amazing. Amazing. So if a listener could take one thing from everything you’ve been saying, what would you want that to be?

Lina: Celebrate your body. You know, be really proud of the body and grateful for the body that we have as women. It is so strong. It’s you know, it gives life. It nourishes and take care of it and love it. And don’t underestimate the connection of your mind and your body and trust it and wherever your mind goes, your body will follow.

Le’Nise: Amazing, amazing. Thank you so much for coming on the show.

Lina: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Period Story Podcast, Episode 15: Shiona Redmond, Nobody Knows Our Bodies Better Than Us

On today’s episode of Period Story Podcast, I had the pleasure of speaking with Shiona Redmond, the founder and CEO of Graces London, a CBD cannabinoid skin care and wellness brand. April is Adenomyosis awareness month, and I’m so happy that Shiona was able to share her journey to getting diagnosed and what she does to manage this condition, alongside running a business and raising two daughters.

Shiona shares the story of her first period at 12 years old. She talks about how disappointing it was and how it didn’t compare to what her friends were experiencing. She says that she was really lucky that her mum and school were really good about talking to her about the changes that were happening to her body. 

Shiona talks about her journey to getting diagnosed with adenomyosis, after years of heavy, painful periods and digestive issues. She said that she spent years thinking that her period was supposed to be like that and she just needed to cope. 

It was only after a trip to A&E with breakthrough pain that Shiona realised that her periods weren’t supposed to be so painful. Listen to hear the moment where she decided she wasn’t going to be fobbed off by doctors any longer and how she advocated for herself to get a proper diagnosis.

Shiona talks about her passion for CBD and the power of the endocannabinoid system in promoting internal balance  and how she’s used this as a tool, alongside healthy eating and lifestyle to manage adenomyosis. 

Shiona is very kindly offering listeners a free sample of the CBD oil to try for yourselves. Go to www.graceslondon.com to get your sample. 

Get in touch with Shiona:










Shiona Redmond is the co-founder, formulator and CEO of Graces London, a CBD cannabinoid skincare & wellness brand. Graces London was one of the first CBD skincare brands to be launched in the UK back in 2016 and the first CBD brand to be stocked in the prestigious UK store Selfridges.

Shiona’s passion for plant based ingredients, alternative therapies, cannabis, herbs and wellbeing, stems from caring for her terminally ill father Paul for over 15 years. After her father lost his battle to Multiple Sclerosis in 2014, Shiona drew on her experiences of caring for her father to create skincare and food supplement formulations to promote internal and external balance. 

Shiona is a mother of two girls and runs the family brand alongside childhood sweetheart Jason Grace. With Grace being the family surname the brand was named in honour of their two children.  In her spare time Shiona is a singer / songwriter and also sits on the advisory board for CPASS, a UK cannabis patient advocacy and support service. 



Le’Nise: On today’s episode, we have Shiona Redmond; Shiona is the founder, formulator and CEO of Graces London, a CBD cannabinoid skin care and wellness brand. Graces London was one of the first CBD skincare brands to be launched in the UK back in 2016 and the first CBD brand to be stocked in the prestigious UK store Selfridges. Shiona’s passion for plant based ingredients, alternative therapies, cannabis, herbs and wellbeing, stems from caring for her terminally ill father, Paul for over fifteen years. After her father lost his battle to Multiple Sclerosis in 2014, Shiona drew on her experiences of caring for her father to create skin care and food supplement formulations to promote internal and external balance. Welcome to the show.

Shiona: Oh, thank you so much for having me.

Le’Nise: Let’s get into the story of your first period. Can you share with us what happened?

Shiona: I can. I was actually 12 years old and I was one of the youngest in my class. So all my friends in my circle had already had their periods. Pretty much kind of, you know, nearly a whole year before me. So I was desperate, Le’Nise, to have my period. I was counting down the days and months. And when it did come, it was just incredibly disappointing. It was a couple of spots and that was it. And I was listening to all my other friends, you know, the blood flow that they were having, it was quite a talk in school at the time when we were having our periods. But mine was quite disappointing. There was just nothing there.

Le’Nise: How did you know what was happening and who did you talk to when this happened?

Shiona: Well, my mum was quite good in that she’d come and talk to me all about periods and the changes my body was going to go through and just kind of giving me heads up that this is something that’s going to happen. In school they were really good as well. So they had nurses come in and talk to us and they had these really informative little five minute video clips that used to play in class that used to give us quite a lot of information. And then most of my talks and learning about stuff was probably just through friends actually going through it. I kind of knew something was happening because I was getting a lot of discharge in my underwear. So I remember saying to my best friend Danielle at the time that this is something that was happening. “Does that mean it’s coming? Am I getting my period?” And yes, it’s pretty much a load of different areas. So school, my mum and friends really. Yeah.

Le’Nise: And it’s really interesting that you say that you got a lot of knowledge from school and the school nurse because so many of the women that I’ve interviewed on this podcast, they said that they didn’t really learn much from school. And it was, you know, they got a kind of cursory education. But what they had to do is speak to their friends and some of them spoke to their siblings or their mothers.

Shiona: When I speak to a lot of other friends that didn’t go to my school, I kind of hear the same. And it wasn’t a lot of information but they did actually take the time out to actually show us what a tampon looked like, show us what a sanitary towel looks like, allowed us to kind of pass them around in class, allowed us to look at them. They then spoke to us about the internal of how the blood flow happens, how the cycle happens. So although it was maybe a tiny little bit scientific for us at that age, it was good that the initial education kind of was there and all girls were taken away from boys to be told this as well. And this was actually in year six in primary school, so this was even before I got into secondary school. So I suppose I was one of the lucky ones because it then made you go home and go, “oh, Mum, you know, this happened today in school.” And then it just kind of the conversation went on more from then. So yeah, I suppose I was quite lucky in that sense.

Le’Nise: And what sort of conversations did you have with your mum that kind of stemmed off of what you learned in school?

Shiona: I suppose it was probably a little bit more sciency in school, more about the human body. So I’d go home to my mum and be like, “But what does it feel like? Is it going to hurt? Why have I got to have this every month? For how long?” You know it would it be all those sorts of questions. I have an 11 year old myself at the moment who I believe is currently showing signs of going through her first period. I believe it’s probably going to come within the next year. And it’s funny to watch her and see the same kinds of questions are coming to me. She’s very keen for me to get her first period subscription box so she can read all about it and see all the different things that she might be able to use. So, God, the times have really changed. Sorry, I probably I’ve gone off a little bit.

Le’Nise: A period subscription box and she’s asking for that? That’s really sweet.

Shiona: How sweet is that? But we didn’t have that back then. But I suppose it was nice that I had that initial conversation in school, was able to go home to my mum, and then off the back of what my mum said, go and check with friends to see what they think as well, you know? But yeah, there’s so much information out there now for my daughter when we speak about it a lot more openly. I suppose, I started the conversation with my daughter Macy at a younger age. I think when it came to me having my period; I think my mum probably waited to a few months before that first period was going to happen. I think I started having a conversation with my daughter when she was probably about eight, nine, ten. Just because, you know, it’s something that us women go through, they see my sanitary towels or tampons or moon cup around the house and it’s something that I’ve just always been quite open with, with them.

Le’Nise: How have they reacted to the conversations that you’ve been having with them?

Shiona: Well, they’re just really curious. They’re really inquiring kids. And I suppose there’s been so many times when I’ve been stuck on the loo and I’ve got two young girls that are 11 and 8 and maybe the sanitary towels in my bedroom, I haven’t bought in with me and I’ll give a call out. Can somebody grab something for me? I suffer with adenomyosis, so I do leak quite a lot. I’m always having accidents and they’re aware of that. They know that “Oh mummy’s got to rush to loo, she’s leaked a little bit of blood” and that’s quite normal to them. I think it’s because they’ve just been they’ve grown up with it, Le’Nise and I’ve just always answered the questions surrounding it. I mean I have a really funny, funny story of when my youngest girl was 4 years old and she managed to get hold of my panty liners and being the artistic creative that she is, she decided to Pritt stick them on a A4 piece of paper and paint them like she just had no idea what they were, she was so interested in using cotton wool and glitter and sequins and oh, here’s some panty liners, they look amazing, let’s just stick those on and do some art. So that’s quite a funny moment with them.

Le’Nise: That’s really funny. That’s so cute.

Shiona: I was in shock. “Mummy, look at my picture.” Is that panty liners?

Le’Nise: I want to go back to what you’re saying about the adenomyosis and just talk a little bit about how your journey with getting diagnosed, because I know that your story is really interesting and it actually fed into a lot of the work that you’ve done with your company.

Shiona: It really did. I suppose if I just give you a brief background of my research over the years. My dad was terminally ill with Multiple Sclerosis and I spent a majority of my time looking after his 24 hour carers and just overseeing every moment of his care, really. And I was obviously a passionate daughter that wanted to keep him well. So I researched the internal systems of the body pretty much from my teenage years up to the age I am now, 34. And it was only when in my dad’s passing in 2014, I was already looking into cannabis and cannabinoids and CBD in particular. The reason for this, my dad was asked to be part of a cannabis trial here in the UK back in 2002 because of his terminally ill Multiple Sclerosis that he suffered with. It was something that he chose not to do at the time, but it really just never went away. It was always there in my head that, that was something that he was offered as a medicinal trial. And it was later it came back, I think I was about 18, 19, 20 and I started to look into MS again and looking into alternative therapies. And I just was always trying to be at the front line of what my dad should be having, if it’s something like garlic capsules or should he be having B12 vitamins. I was just always trying to understand his internal systems, his body.

When in early 2017, I got my diagnosis of adenomyosis, I really hadn’t thought of myself as looking into my own internal systems of my body. I’ve never really looked at my own self-care or my own wellness or how I was reacting to food or what vitamins I may need. The penny just really dropped for me, Le’Nise and everything that I had been researching over the years made me look at myself for my own wellness, and straightaway I knew that having at the time I had an overactive thyroid, I just had a really bad bout of glandular fever and now I was having a diagnosis of adenomyosis and I knew that it was the endocrine system that was being attacked. And now this is something that I had been reading and researching for years was the endocrine system. And the reason being is the endocrine system is one of the internal systems of the body that works and fits nicely into our endocannabinoid system and to try and do it as briefly as I can.

The endocannabinoid system is one of the largest receptor systems in our body, and it’s really a self-regulatory system that tries to create homeostasis amongst the internal systems of the body and which is really all about trying to promote internal balance, whether that be balance of the immune system, balancing the endocrine system, etc.. And I suppose it was really my friends and family that were just coming to me saying, “Shiona, you’ve been making these cannabinoids, CBD balms and oils. We’ve been using them for not only skincare”, but there was a lot of feedback coming back to me from so many different things that my mum was pretty much screaming at me going, “You know, you need to practice what you preach. Have you tried any of your oils?”

And when you’re in the thick of it and you’re trying to help others and you’re a busy mum and you’re working and doing 101 things, the last thing that I was thinking of was myself. And it was only when I started to really look at what I was eating and what I was drinking and I was putting on my skin and what sanitary towels and tampons I was using that I really started to see a change since my diagnosis and really just trying to understand what had happened internally to me to get to this level. So, yeah, sorry I’ve babbled there haven’t I, Le’Nise?

Le’Nise: No, you haven’t. It’s really interesting. So you got your period when you were 12, but you didn’t get your diagnosis for adenomyosis until you were 31, 32?

Shiona: 32, yes.

Le’Nise: Let’s just take a step back. Adenomyosis, I don’t know if a lot of people will be familiar with it. So a lot more people are familiar with endometriosis. And sometimes, adenomyosis, it gets mistaken for endometriosis. But with adenomyosis, you have the uterine tissue or tissue similar to the uterine tissue within the muscular lining of the uterus so that it reacts just like the uterine tissue, that it gets expelled when we have our period. But the tissue actually can’t be expelled because it’s within the muscular lining. So can you just talk us through, if you’re okay with this, your journey to getting a diagnosis and what age you were when you first started to experience the symptoms of adenomyosis?

Shiona: Yes, of course. I’ll briefly mention that when I got to the age of 14, my periods became incredibly heavy, to the point, I remember sitting in science lab and you just get that terrible sensation of just a full flow that you were just being completely flooded. And I spent a lot of my teenage years when I was on my period, at home, and it really had a detrimental effect on my education for that year from age 14 to 15, because I’d spend ten to fifteen days at home every month. So my mum brought me to the doctors and it was advised that I should be put on the contraceptive pill. So I was actually put the contraceptive pill when I was 15 years old to regulate my periods. And it really did help at the time; I was bleeding before going on the contraceptive pill for nearly fifteen days. And it was just ridiculous. The fatigue, I had no appetite and my mum was quite worried about me. And I just didn’t feel great. So when I went onto the contraceptive pill, it really did help regulate things. And then I went on to have my first child when I was 23, and obviously I came off the contraceptive pill when I found out I was pregnant.

And I then noticed after having my first child, the incredible, painful periods and I was bleeding for 15 days again and that feeling of fatigue and general unwellness was all coming back. So I went back to the doctors and it was said that I should probably go on the contraceptive pill again to try and regulate it because I had these problems before. So, I mean, I was just at a loss end at the time and just really wanted something to sort it out because I’d spent four days in bed and with young children, it was just not on, and obviously working as well. So I did go back on the contraceptive pill and that did help. I then came off it again to have my second child and after my second child, I had a bit of a very full on birth and I had some complications but after giving birth to my second child, that same period came back, I was now bleeding for 17 days was one of the months I bled for and it was just awful. And at this moment, obviously, I was still looking after my dad, my dad was alive at the time, but I just didn’t have time to really tap into my own, what was going on with me. So I kind of just put up and shut up, if I’m honest and I was coping with diarrhoea every month, really bad thrush, I was constantly feeling very faint for those first two days that I was on my period, and I suppose I just spent years of just, “well, this is what my period is, this is oh I’m just that unfortunate one that has really bad pain, poor me”, because I had other friends that just would get a dull ache for a couple of minutes and then bleeds. And then I’d have other friends that were kind of pretty much like me. So I just was, I suppose I don’t know, I don’t know if society had taught us or it was just that it was accepted, I’d accepted that, you know, okay, I’m going to have diarrhoea every month, I’m going to have thrush, these are things that I just need to kind of cope with.

It was then obviously through my business with CBD, more and more people coming to me saying, “This is really helped with my hormonal outbreaks on my skin.” A lot of people have found benefit with acne and then it just started to stem into more and more things and more and more research that was emerging in the cannabinoid industry, not really in the UK, but more from Israel and other parts of the world. I was seeing the relation of how it could be linked: CBD, cannabinoids, the endocrine system, the endocannabinoid system. So I took some time out and thought, you know what, I’m going to start looking at myself and the ailments that I’m going through and just try to work what’s going on. It’s probably not the thing you should do. But I’ve done that thing of I kind of self-diagnose myself and said, right, I think I’ve got endometriosis. And I went to the doctors and I said to them, a quick brief outline, how I’ve just done to you, of my history. And I was kind of fobbed off. It was just some periods can be painful, I was told, it could just be something I’m experiencing from giving birth. I was really just fobbed off. I waited a few months and then I had a really, really bad outbreak where I was rushed to A&E, I’d collapsed on the floor; I was projectile vomiting, diarrhoea at the same time. And it was called, which I found out after, It’s actually called breakthrough pain, where the blood flow tries to push through the uterine wall or I’m not entirely sure how it all completely works, I’m sure you’d be able to explain it a lot better than I would. But it’s called breakthrough pain and it literally is in the name, where it just completely takes you out. And I made a stand after going into A&E and being in such a bad way when the male nurse turned to me and was like, “So you’ve basically just got period pain?” And I just looked at him and I was like, “This is really not just period pain.”

And I just took the time to really dig my heels in, if I’m honest. I had to print off articles that I had to show my reasonings as to why I thought this is what I had. And it did pay off. I was one of the lucky ones that on the second doctor that I did see, he was amazing and he really did listen and he really helped and he gave me that referral to the doctor that I needed to see at the Whittington Hospital in North London and I got my diagnosis. I got mine quite quickly, I hear of friends that have been 8 to 10 years that have took a really long time to get their diagnosis. I honestly believe with my mum being a nurse and having doctors and physicians in my family, that I just really took that, right I’m going to print off the file, I’m going to get dividers and put all the research into pockets for them to read if they need. But I really had to push hard to get that diagnosis.

Le’Nise: There are so many things in what you’ve said that I want to highlight. I think the first thing is that you said that you thought that this is what your period was and you accepted that this was your normal. I mean, that really shocked me because you know, everything that you’ve gone through and everything you’ve described with, you know, the diarrhoea, the thrush, the fainting and then even having that experience of breakthrough pain and going to the hospital and having the male nurse say in a kind of dismissive way, “oh, so you’ve just got period pain.” I mean, how dare he?

Shiona: It was that initial meeting, so when you go into A&E, you have your first initial meeting before you then get seen by the consultant or doctor. So I get that it’s one in, one out, and it’s quite a quick thing. But you go in and, you know, you haven’t got long in there. So I was trying to be quite blunt, concise, this is what’s going on, this is what’s happened today, I fainted, I projectile vomited, incredibly bad pain in my stomach, I’m on my period, you know, and his exact words were, “So you’re basically on your period.” And it was such a kick in the stomach. And I couldn’t even cry because I’d already cried so much because I was in so much pain, you know? But that was the moment for me that I thought, “No, I’m not having this, I’m just going to keep screaming and shouting and keep making doctors’ appointments until somebody listens to me.” But it pretty much was me going in and going, “I think I have this,” you know, and me just getting a doctor going, “okay, I hear you, I understand that you’ve really looked into this, you understand your own body, you feel quite strongly about this, I can see why you would, there’s a lot of correlations there”. And then him sending me on my way to then for me to then get the diagnosis of adenomyosis and also fibroids on both ovaries, oh I have this as well. But yeah, it wasn’t a nice moment. No.

Le’Nise: So you originally thought that you had endometriosis?

Shiona: I did.

Le’Nise: Can you talk us through how they diagnose, so what was the medical process that you went through to get your adenomyosis diagnosis?

Shiona: That day for me was probably I mean, it wasn’t painful for me at all if I’m honest, she was very gentle with all the internal examinations that she’d done beforehand, before you go through the procedure, and that day for me was a great day because I knew I wasn’t going crazy, it was the day that someone had gone, this isn’t actually normal what you’re going through this. It shouldn’t be this painful. You actually have got six fibroids, I think, on one ovary and I’ve got quite a lot on the other ovary. The day for me, that somebody actually understood and that she really took her time out, the consultant, I can’t think of her name at the moment, but she really took her time out to talk to me about the different research studies that were currently going on. And there was one going on about high intake of sugar. And they haven’t scientifically linked it yet but there were a lot of research studies that were surrounding that. And it was just it was a great day for me where I just let out a relief, a big sigh of relief that actually this isn’t normal and there may be something that I can do now moving forward to try and cope better and get better coping mechanisms. So I’m not in bed 4 days a month and I’m not dealing with all these different ailments. You know?

Le’Nise: So you got your diagnosis and you said you had a sigh of relief, it was a great day. And it sounds like your consultant was quite switched on, in that she was making the link between sugar and was it the adenomyosis or the fibroids?

Shiona: It was the adenomyosis.

Le’Nise: What did she recommend as a next step?

Shiona: Well, I spoke to her that I kind of wanted to try and do as much as I could through diet. Were there any changes that I could do through diets? And that was one of the main things she said to me was, although it wasn’t scientifically proven yet, there were a lot of research studies that were showing that a high sugar intake may contribute to adenomyosis. Now, I myself, when she said this knew I had a huge high sugar intake; I was probably drinking up to 10 cups of tea a day with two great big spoons of sugar. I mean, now we do the maths on that, just absolutely ridiculous. Although I wouldn’t allow my dad when looking after him to have that entire sugar intake, I just wasn’t looking at myself like that. You know, I was just seeing myself as, I’m a young, well fit person that has you know, I have the period pain and it was getting worse at the time, but I just didn’t see how much sugar that I was actually having but it was really having a massive impact.

So I started to cut sugar out pretty much straight away, I switched to mint tea, green tea. I got rid of my builders cup of tea, although I still have one every now and again  I’m not going to lie, but I really cut the sugar out and I noticed a relief in my symptoms within the first two to three months of me cutting sugar out. Now, I hadn’t done anything else, only cut sugar out. So I really, really did feel the benefit of doing so. And she was great because she also really went in depth on showing me the scans. She showed me how the fibroids show up on the scan like the how adenomyosis looks and it was like dark black patches on my womb. She explained to me the breakthrough pain, the reason why I was fainting. You faint because the body just can’t cope with that pain, it’s such a horrific pain that the body just cuts out. I learnt actually a lot from her that day. She spent a lot of time with me. And from going through, you know, 18 months, two years of not really anyone listening to me. I do feel incredibly grateful that it didn’t take me as long as friends, like I said, that have had to wait eight to ten years of not being listened to or having to wait so long for a diagnosis.

Le’Nise: Yeah. You were really lucky to have such a knowledgeable consultant who was able to make these connections and who was able to guide you through your scans and show you everything in such a compassionate way.

Shiona: I think we have to ask questions. I think I’m that person anyway, that’s sitting there going why have I got this? I look at somebody like my Nan and my Nan goes into the doctor’s, you know, she cracks me up. She’ll go in and, you know, she’ll tell them the problem and whatever they say to her, “that’s okay, thank you doctor, goodbye.” And she just, you know, and she just takes everything at face value.

Whereas I’m really intrigued by how the internal systems of the body work. I’m really intrigued as to how we can impact it through foods and diet and through other external factors, i.e. products we use on our skin. Is that having an impact? So I’m always asking questions. We shouldn’t be fearful or scared that these people are doctors and they’ve trained and the consultants, they are, and we’re very grateful for that. But nobody knows our own bodies like ourselves. You know, we know if we’ve eaten something dodgy and it may have had an impact on us or we know if that period was worse last month than this month or we know if our breasts are sorer in the left breast or the right breast. And I think more and more what I see, especially amongst my friends and family, I think we’re all starting to really tap more into our own bodies. And just really I think we need to go in there and just ask the questions. So I believe that she was brilliant in the sense of giving me such great information and education, but it really was, I think we have to go in there armed with our questions, you know, to really try and get an understanding of what is going on, you know?

Le’Nise: Yeah, absolutely. I am very much about taking a very empowered approach when you go to your GP and making sure that if you get 10, you only get 10 minutes, but you’re using that 10 minutes to the best of your ability and going in there armed with information, symptoms, even like a time line, if that’s available to you. I just want to go back to what you were saying about how you then started to look at how you got your diagnosis and you started to look at food and diet and the products that you were using on your skin. And so, did you do a big overhaul of your diet? You mentioned cutting out the sugars.

Shiona: I actually did, I straightaway went to pescatarian, so I cut out red meat, I cut out chicken, I just started to eat fish, I really upped my intake of green leafy vegetables because I’ve just done lots of my own research. I’m not telling other people what to do, but it’s just what works for me at the time. I decided that I wanted to cut out acidic foods as much as I could. One of the things that I was going through every month was I was so gassy that week before my actual flow, my actual period, the blood flow would come, I would be full of wind, constantly full of wind and it was really, really painful. And I know that anyone that’s experienced wind, that it can be really, really excruciating pain, especially if it’s trapped wind around the back passage area or down below that area. So this was something that I was coming up against every month, a week before that blood flow. And then I’d have that really bad diarrhoea.

So through just my own research, I was looking into how I wanted to implement a lot of alkaline foods and keep away from the acidic side of things, because I just believed personally in my own opinion, that the acidic foods, where just contributing to these gases that were happening in my body. So I went straight to pescatarian, so that means I was eating fish, I still ate fish, sorry, as well as lots and lots of vegetables and I really did notice an impact. So, first of all, I did the sugar, I then done the pescatarian a couple of months later and I tapped back in a couple of months later, I was like, well, I fancy meat again, I’m going to start eating meat again. And, you know, I went back full hog started eating meat again. My period came and wow, it was astonishing how much more painful it was that month, I mean, I never got rid of the pain. I never got rid of the diarrhoea but it wasn’t as much, you know, it didn’t go on for as long. And another thing that I would always come up against was huge clots. So every month I’d have these quite big clots, blood clots as well that would be coming away. And when I tried to go to more of an alkaline rich diet, I really noticed that my clots had lessened, although my pain was still horrific. It was horrific for a day and a half instead of three days. And I was just noticing all these differences. And then when I did decide to go back on the meat and I just went straight, I didn’t implement it slowly, I just went straight back to meat every other day. That period, there was a massive difference and then I think it was a light bulb moment for me of, wow I think that the meat that I’ve just been eating, all the acidic, fizzy drinks, the really high acidic diet that I was having was contributing to how my period pain level and diarrhoea and clots was affected that month.

So I went backwards and forwards, I did a lot of trial and error, so I came back off the meat, I just ate fish and really rich diets and green vegetables again and I noticed the difference and the change. And then I did another month of eating meat again because I’m one of these people that I just had to double check, double confirm. I always want confirmation; I knew I was sure that that’s what had happened to me. So I just wanted to implement the meats back in again, just to be sure. And it definitely was for me, a massive factor.

And then I suppose we get to the skin, which is the largest organ of the body. And my big passion, which has always been the skin. I’ve always been a lover of making my own essential oil creams and lotions since probably about the age of 10, and I just started to look into CBD and how that might be able to help me. I was having a lot of people talk to me about how they use CBD to help with their period pains at that time of the month, it didn’t get rid of their pain, it wasn’t a cure for their pain but what they noticed is that it was putting back a layer, a couple of layers was going back so you could feel that that ache was being dulled a layer or so. And I, of course, had my own CBD cannabinoid skincare business, you know, but because I was too busy running the business and trying to get everyone else to try and use it, I just kind of forgot about myself. I was already using CBD for my hormonal outbreaks and my crazy skin that I’ve always dealt with, which I think was a knock on effect from obviously adenomyosis and all the hormonal imbalances that was going on in my endocrine system and I was blown away how much it was really taking the redness and inflammation out of my spots and that was great but it was only when I started really upping my intake of using it, so applying the skincare oils to my stomach and applying them to the bottom of my back during my monthly cycle. But then I do this now, you know, that’s something that I do every other day when I get out of the bath. I love to apply the oils all over my skin. And what I learned was, CBD will never get rid of my pain because of the pain that I experienced, it’s just too horrendous. But what it does do, is it gives me a coping mechanism to not have them three days in bed, it kind of dulls that pain slightly that I’m able to do the school run, I’m able to walk the dog, I can get up today, I don’t have to stay in bed and do the rocking motion thing that I’d have to do when I was in pain.

I have to be really careful how I do say and word it because I see a lot that CBD will help period pain, but it’s not as easy as that. It’s really your food, your diet; it’s all the balances within your internal system of your body. And CBD is a cannabinoid that is also found in the cannabis plants and when it’s found in the cannabis plants, it’s called a phytocannabinoid but we actually make our own CBD in our own body, which is called an endocannabinoid. So implementing these CBD skincare oils on my skin, it interacts with these cannabinoid receptors and as going back to what I said before, the endocannabinoid system is all about creating homeostasis and balance amongst the internal systems of the body. And when you really dig deep and look into it, it’s really heavily linked with the endocrine system. So I was just like another light bulb moment, “how silly are you? You know, you’ve had a CBD cannabinoid business since early 2016.” I established the business, but I’ve been working and formulating at home for a long time before then. So I just really started to up my intake and just start to use the balm when I wash my face in the morning, I put my CBD skincare oil on my face and then I’d use my balm on my lips and then I’d apply on my stomach, I’d apply on my boobs, I’d apply on my lower back, and it got into a habit of me doing that every day and just waiting for when that period comes, keeping a diary, engaging how I felt, what is the pain level like this month? What is my thrush like? What is my blood flow and clots like?

And it was really just a trial and error and going backwards and forwards to find out what works for me and I’m happy to say that I’m in a position now where I still get pain, I can feel it coming about a week before, I even get ovulation pain, I can feel what side my egg is ovulating from, I’m so in tune now with my body. It’s brilliant the difference here now in 2020 to where I was in 2017, worrying about how I could even run a business, you know and now I’m really pleased. I mean as I said, I get pain but nothing like I was experiencing.

Le’Nise: You said that it was all about trial and error and figuring out what works best for you and I think that’s a really important message because there is no one size fits all in terms of solving period problems, solving hormonal issues and, you know, cutting out meat worked really well for you and for some women adding in a bit of meat is really beneficial. So I love that you’ve said that it is trial and error and you just wanted to make double sure that what you were doing was working for you. So you said it’s been like night and day, what you’re experiencing now compared to what you were experiencing in 2017. So if you could go back and have a chat with the woman who was rushed to A&E with the breakthrough pain, what would you say to her?

Shiona: Well, I suppose the first thing I’d say is you’re not dying, because honestly, that day I just felt like there was a moment where it was just so awful, I just didn’t know what was going on, I was so worried and obviously being a mum and having young children. So I think the first thing I’d say to her is you’re okay, you’re not dying, you know, we’re going to get through this.

And the second thing I’d say to her is to just really take some time out for yourself. I think the biggest lesson I’ve learned from all of this is that I just wasn’t paying attention to myself. I was always looking after others, I was always looking into as I said, I might look into my dad’s health, looking into my nan’s health or my mum’s health, or my friend’s health, or my children’s health. I just saw myself as the person that just got up every day and had to get on with everything. So I think the big important message that I’d say to me back in 2017 is just really take the time to look into your body and how you’re feeling. Horrific period pain isn’t normal, you know, having full on diarrhoea for two, three days every month whilst you’re bleeding isn’t normal, projectile vomiting every month with periods is not normal. It was always in the back of my head that when it starts to get really bad towards the end of the diarrhoea and the projectile vomiting right up to my diagnosis, the symptoms did get worse. I suppose I’d just say that all those things are not normal and that you just need to take time and looking after yourself and tapping into what works for you and yes, doing trial and error, I mean, it takes time, you’re not going to work out in a week how you’re going to fix your ailments. I’m still learning now, you know.

Le’Nise: So tell us about where we can find your CBD brand Graces. If someone is listening to this and your story and how you’ve used these CBD oils and lotions, how can they tap into that for themselves?

Shiona: Well, of course, reach out to me, because as I said, it’s really difficult being Graces London and being a female CEO of a business. I’m not of the wellness therapeutic skincare business; I’m not allowed to make any medicinal claims. So it’s really difficult for me to say go and buy my CBD skincare oils, it’s going to help with your period pain or period ailments, that’s not what I’m saying and I definitely want to just put that out there now.

What I would say is get in contact with me because I’d love to send you a sample to try for yourself. When I notice that the CBD skincare oils, I was using them for skincare, when I noticed that I started to implement them by putting them onto my lower abdomen, my lower back and puts them onto my sore breasts and it was really starting to help. I had to reach out to women and find out if the same would happen to them, one of the companies that I reached out to was a company called OHNE and the reason I reached out to OHNE is because they are an organic tampon brand. And I thought, you know, I’ve used this CBD skincare oil and it’s really helped my periods but I make these products, I formulate these products, I don’t want to be seen going, “Try my products, it’s going to help with this”, you know? So we got in contact with OHNE because they create organic tampons. So who is the best person to go to that’s going to have loads of women that are on their period, and we’d be able to tap into that?

So I just started to put the oils out to a lot of women and we have a feedback group here in my community that I put the oils out to as well. So this wasn’t just me that it was working for, I had to be sure that this was something that was actually working for others as well. And you’re right, it doesn’t work the same way for everybody. One thing I will definitely say is the endocannabinoid system that CBD and cannabinoids fit into is like our fingerprint; it’s so completely unique to us. So that will go the same for our hormones, the levels of everything in our bodies and we’re going to being incredibly different.

So one thing I would say is get in contact me, I’d love to send you a 1ml sample of oil for you to try it, in particular for your period pain. And secondly, all of our stuff and a lot of information is online at www.graceslondon.com and please feel free to just contact me, it’s myself and my partner Jason, who run the business. We called it Graces London, after our two lovely children because the family surname is actually Grace and we have two children so we called it Graces, plural. But yeah, I hope that’s all okay and I haven’t blabbed too much, but yeah, I want to put that out there to just get in contact with me. I’d love to send you out a sample to try; your feedback means everything to me.

Le’Nise: That’s brilliant. That’s such a generous offer. Thank you so much for coming on the show, Shiona. If listeners want to find out more about you, they can go to your website www.graceslondon.com.

Shiona: That’s correct. 

Le’Nise: What is your Instagram handle?

Shiona: It’s @Graceslondon.

Le’Nise: Brilliant. Get in touch with Shiona to find out more about CBD and if you want a free sample, get in touch with her for that. So thank you so much for coming on the show.

Shiona: Thank you so much for having me. It’s been great.

Period Story Podcast, Episode 14: Molly Fenton, Love Your Period

On the latest episode of Period Story podcast, I was so pleased to speak to Molly Fenton, the 17 year old Welsh campaigner who started a movement to help people love periods, called aptly, the Love Your Period campaign.

Molly shares the story of her first period at just 8 years old in year 4. She said because she was so young, she didn’t really understand what was happening and wasn’t prepared.

Molly says that starting the Love Your Period campaign motivated her to better educate herself about periods and menstrual health. Listen to hear what Molly was surprised to learn is and isn’t normal.

Molly talks about the work she’s been in doing in schools in Cardiff to educate different year groups on menstrual health. Molly also shares how she been campaigning the Welsh government to improve menstrual health education in schools across Wales.

Inspired by the work of Amika George, who has been campaigning for free periods in England, we talked about how Molly started a campaign  asking menstrual product companies to remove the plastic in their products. Go to the link in my profile to sign the petition!

Molly talks about the change in her periods after she switched to plastic free products from brands like TOTM and Hey Girls. She says that her allergic reactions stopped and her period pain drastically reduced.

Molly says everyone should know that periods are normal and that no matter how much we try to ignore them, they are always going to be there, so the best thing that we can do is accept them and learn to love them. I completely agree!

Get in touch with Molly!













After coming across the work of Amika George, campaigning for free periods in England, Molly started talking to people around her about period poverty and stigma, something she’d never thought about before. People called the topics inappropriate and disgusting, and she felt that she couldn’t sit back and let this happen. At just 17 years old, Molly started a social media movement to aid everyone to help love periods called the Love Your Period campaign. Today, the campaign has over 5000 followers across social media pages and is nationally recognised.



Le’Nise: On today’s episode we have Molly Fenton. After coming across the work of Amika George, campaigning for free periods in England, Molly started talking to people around her about period poverty and stigma, something she’d never thought about before. People called the topics inappropriate and disgusting, and she felt that she couldn’t sit back and let this happen. At just 17 years old, Molly started a social media movement to aid everyone to help love periods called the Love Your Period campaign. Today, the campaign has over 5000 followers across social media pages and is nationally recognised. Welcome to the show.

Molly: Thank you very much.

Le’Nise: So, let’s start off with a question that I ask all of my guests. Tell me the story of your first period.

Molly: So, I was eight years old when I had my first period. So, I was in Year 4 when I was in primary school and it was my break time. So, I was out in the playground and something didn’t feel right. I felt I’d wet myself, which, you know, that’s not cool when you’re 8, you’re pass that. So, I went to the bathroom and when I wiped, I had blood and I didn’t quite understand. It was quite scary, but I wasn’t going to tell anyone about it because I have no clue what it was. And I was scared they were either going to send me home or to the hospital. So, I had to go about the rest of the day with this uncomfortable feeling. And I was very lucky because when I got home my mum was brilliant. And I was able to show her, and she explained to me what it was and that it was a period and showed me how to use a sanitary towel and I could get on with my day like that. So, it didn’t start great, but I was lucky that my mum was really good with me afterwards.

Le’Nise: You were eight years old. Wow. So that’s very young. I think that’s the youngest that any of my guests have started their period, we had someone who started at 9 in the last season. That’s very young. You’re 17 now? Knowing what you know now. Do you think you were ready? Was it overwhelming? You said you were scared and uncomfortable. Just talk me through what was going through your mind when you first discovered you had it.

Molly: Well, ultimately, I didn’t have a clue what it was. I haven’t actually come across periods before because it’s not something that’s ever bought up in school briefly, until the last year of primary school. So that’s 11-12 year olds and it hadn’t been touched upon. My mum hadn’t spoken to me about it because I was still at quite a young age for it to come about, really. And you know, all I had was this association of blood and death really or blood and something very, very wrong and something isn’t right with my body. So, it was really scary. And so, I definitely wasn’t ready, and I wasn’t prepared whatsoever. And that’s I think that’s why I like to do what I do, because I don’t want anyone to be in that position because it wasn’t nice. It was scary. And I could have definitely been a lot more prepared for my first periods. And I wish I was.

Le’Nise: When you had it, did you eventually start talking to your friends about what was going on with you?

Molly: Not at all. I’ve never spoken about my periods about my friends until I started this campaign at all. It’s never been a topic of conversation in my friendship group.

Le’Nise: Even as they started getting their periods?

Molly: Yes, which is surprising. And now I look back on it and now we speak about it. And I think, why didn’t we? But I guess that’s how the stigma must’ve affected us. So many of us feel that we should no matter how close we were, it was one thing that we just never spoke about.

Le’Nise: Getting it at 8 and then not really getting any education at school until you were 11-12 years old. You said your mum was really supportive and she helped you get menstrual towels and all of that. How else did you start to try to educate yourself?

Molly: I kind of let my mum tell me what to do. I could have come across this a bit better. I know my mum bought a book, one of those, your body is changing books. So, I spent a lot of time reading through that with my mum. I remember the book very well and it didn’t make a lot of sense to me. You know, there were these diagrams and pictures and all sorts. But it really it didn’t come across to me the way that it would have now. So, I don’t think it was really until I got to high school maybe, I was about 12, 13 that I really started trying to look into it. So of course, you start learning about it a little bit more in science lessons. But I’d say my education properly really didn’t start until I had to, which is when I started this campaign because people have to trust me, and they have to know they can trust me. I feel like I took a degree in menstrual health before I started this company. And I learned so much that I didn’t know that I should have known. Considering I have periods for almost 10 years, and I surprise myself with learning what’s normal, what isn’t, what I should be concerned about and what I shouldn’t. And all these different things that really everyone should know but we don’t ever get taught.

Le’Nise: What was surprising to you?

Molly: That we don’t actually lose that much blood, considering it looks like an awful lot and that your cycle doesn’t always have to be every month. If it comes a little bit earlier or less a bit late, it doesn’t mean something is drastically wrong. And I learnt also as well, which really did help, stomach cramps being a little bit more than just discomfort isn’t right. So I went to my doctor because my cramps would keep me off school and I thought this was normal, I couldn’t get out of bed, they were making me throw up and now I’ve got the right medication, I’m able to do my exams and things normally. Whereas before, I know so many of my GCSE exams were affected by my period because I thought it was normal and that every single person in the hall around me that was on their period had to deal with the same thing. And then I learnt through my research that really, I shouldn’t be experiencing the pain that I was. So that was the biggest shock that I had. But I’m glad I had it because I was able to get it under control and get the help that I needed with it.

Le’Nise: Why did you think the cramps were normal?

Molly: I don’t know. I’m guessing because I was still functioning, and I’ve had a period every month for so many years that I thought this is the way that my body works. And because I knew everyone’s period was unique. Then this is just how my body does it. And I assumed that it was the right way because I was still alive and still going despite, you know, now I look back and see that that totally wasn’t normal, and I shouldn’t have left it like that. But it was something that myself, my sister and my mum just thought was part of it for me.

Le’Nise: So, your sister and your mum also have period pain, period cramps?

Molly: My mum used to yeah, really badly. So, she put it down to, “Oh, yeah, that’s something I had”, and my sister does suffer really badly as well. She’s younger than me but we’ve managed to find natural ways that relieve them for her, but she has exactly the same symptoms as I had. So, she can’t get out of bed, makes her physically sick sometimes. It’s something that’s been in the family unfortunately.

Le’Nise: That’s really interesting that all three of you thought that it was normal and that, you know, you just accepted that that was your normal. I hear this a lot. I hear that period pain is normal, just part of having a period. And I really love the fact that you’ve educated yourself and you learned that it isn’t normal. So, what were the tools that you used to educate yourself about your period and about menstrual health?

Molly: So, I first started with my biology teacher. I approached my teacher in school who is good friends with my mum. So, I felt fine speaking to her, and I said, “Look, I’ve learnt all about period poverty. Looking at this online, I cannot sit still about it anymore. What can you tell me about it?” And so, she basically taught me about periods, which I felt like it was exactly what I needed to know when I was 11 years or well, younger for me. But when I was in year 6 and we were having that education as a class, that 15 minute whistle-stop talk. It would have been really useful to have that lesson. And I then took that on in a debating competition to speak about period poverty and through education and my research for that, I spoke to different organic pad companies, so, Hey Girls, Luck Store Organic and TOTM about how products affect periods as well. So that way I was able to learn about the obvious things like I didn’t think the products we use are absorbed into our bodies and I didn’t think that before. But now it’s such an obvious thing to think about.

And more books, I’ve got Natalie Byrne’s Period book, which was possibly one of the best books I ever got. She gave it to me herself when I met her, which was really kind of her. And after reading it, it just simplified everything and it’s friendly for everyone. So, anyone that needs to learn about periods, it’s definitely the book to read. So, I kind of just accumulated knowledge from every corner that I could. And even today I’m still learning things. Every day I’ll ask a question that I won’t know the answer to. So, I’ll have to pass them on to someone but as I’m passing them on, I’ll be going, “Oh, can you tell me the answer too please,” so that next time I’m able to help that person? Because there are so many things we don’t know. And I feel like we all have to learn together, we all have to educate ourselves, but work as a team to do that. And I think that’s the way to start this education off properly.

Le’Nise: Do you say you get asked a lot of questions? Is it typically from other girls or do boys ask you questions as well?

Molly: Boys, girls, mothers, lots of people from the LGBTQ+ community who feel they can’t ask questions to anyone else and wants an anonymous space. We really have a broad range of people that message us on Instagram daily asking questions, which is lovely to see.

Le’Nise: And can you share the types of questions that you get asked?

Molly: Sometimes it’s little things that I laugh at and I think I actually feel really sorry because I would’ve asked the same question. So, I remember I’ve had some like, “why is my period clear?” That’s not a period, that’s discharge and it’s something like no and or “my period’s been going on for two months and it’s clear” and they thought it’s their periods. And of course, haven’t seen that that’s what it is. But that’s completely understandable because I didn’t have a clue what discharge was, I didn’t know the name up until about six months ago, if I’m perfectly honest with you. So we have a lot of things like that from younger people and we have a lot, unfortunately, of people going, I’ve been following your page for a while and I think I’ve just started my first period but I can’t tell my mum or my mum’s not around and I live with my dad and my brothers, I can’t tell them. Or people at break time and lunch time in school who even go to my school and they message me or go through their period and say, can you come to the toilets with products, please? I started my period. Can you come help me? I don’t know what to do.

So sometimes it’s really upsetting to see the questions or the things that people ask me to do. But unfortunately, the taboo around menstruation has kind is been implanted in everyone’s brains, so some of us have really got to go over the top to try and remove it. You know, sometimes we have some great questions that make me think, like I said, I’ve got to pass people on and they’re like, right, so if my period blood is this colour, what does this mean? And I’m like, oh, brilliant, I don’t know. So, I’ll like, start a group with someone else that I know so it’s the three of us and I’ll ask the question and I’ve been educated as well as the person that’s asked the question. So, we have once again, a really broad range of different scenarios to deal with every day.

Le’Nise: So, based on the questions that you’re getting asked and the experiences that you’ve been having, so friends in school, people in school messaging you and asking you to come to the loos with them. What do you think needs to change about menstrual health education in schools?

Molly: Firstly, we need to have it properly. Menstrual health education cannot be defined as five minutes with a random teacher that was unlucky and drew the short straw. It cannot work that way. We need proper menstrual education, whether that be through PSHE lessons, whether that be through talks or assemblies, which I’ll be doing in my school now, I’m going to be doing groups with all the year groups, with packs of what periods are and we’ve got leaflets explaining what discharge is, what a period is, the different changes, how to check their boobs, different things that they need to know. It really needs to be implemented into the curriculum because it’s not properly and it’s something I keep pushing with the Welsh government. And so many people are. And I think they’re coming around to listening. They definitely are. We’ve just got to keep pushing them because until it’s actually stuck in the curriculum, there’s not a lot we can do about it. And when it is when it’s got its place, then we can build on it and say, right, these are the points we need to cover and it’s really important that we do.

Le’Nise: Tell me more about your campaigning with the Welsh government. So, you’re based in Wales and for our listeners who aren’t in the UK, different countries in the UK have different education systems. So, there’s England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. So, tell me about what you’re doing in terms of campaigning with the Welsh government or to the Welsh government.

Molly: So, with education, I’ve seen a lot of the ministers with Welsh government since I’ve started the campaign and local MPs and assembly members and things like that about various different things. But every time I’m there, I kind of bring in the comment, “oh, well, you know, we need to bring in the education about this.” I came along across a group and I know they’ve got a petition, I think it’s on change.org, I can’t remember the name exactly, who are trying to get it into the curriculum. And I know there was talks saying right, by 2022, menstruation education is going to be a thing. I love that menstruation education, it’s brilliant, brilliant words.

I’m still trying to work out with my team whether we can start a full-blown petitioning campaign on the side with it, because I think it needs to be done. What I’m doing it at the moment is I’m in the experimenting stage by doing it myself, my own school, like I said. So, we’ve been sent by Always, these packs and they’re be like a girl packs and they’ve got pads and tampons inside. And then like I said, they put the leaflets with all the information possibly need to know. So, we’re going to do these assemblies and I’m going to hand out this education, as I’ve done in primary schools across Cardiff. And we’re going to see how that goes. And if it goes well, I’m going to take the evidence and then say, right, this is how it works. This is the feedback I’ve had. These are my suggestions to say, well, I’ve basically done half the work for you now I need you to implement it. So, at the moment, I’m doing more of the practical side because of course, there are a lot of petitions, there are lots of campaigners. So I’m trying to go a different way about it to try and prove the point that it is needed and get the feedback on girls aged 11 to 18 saying that, yes, I think this needs to be implemented in within education and I need to be taught about this. So, yes, definitely at the practical stage at the moment and then hoping to really take it back to the Welsh government again then and present them with my findings.

Le’Nise: So, you’re doing that, and you also have your other campaign, which is about removing plastic from menstrual products. So, you’re very busy and you go to school, you’re 17, you’re doing your A-levels. So, tell me how you started looking into the plastic in menstrual products. So, tell me about that campaign.

Molly: So, when I was having my bad period cramps and before I went to the doctors, because of course if you book an appointment it takes about 6 weeks until you can get one. So, during that time I was trying to actively research myself what the issue could be. So, I spoke to lots of different people and I went back to people that I’d spoken to before and had a great phone call with the founder of Luck Store Organic, an organic cotton sanitary product company based in London, husband and wife, they’re really lovely. And they spoke to me, said, “Right, so what products do you use?” And I was like, “Oh well the cheapest ones I can find in the shop.” So, I got them out and she said, “Well, do they have ingredients on?” I said no, and she went, “So how do you know what’s in them?” And I said “I don’t know.” And so, she spoke to me, said, “Well, you know, try and look into what’s in there, maybe, because that’s causing.” So, I was always having the allergic reactions to products as well and they were really bad. And they would make me really uncomfortable and sore. And it was just a really uncomfortable time, possibly one of the worst places you could have an allergic reaction to something. And I was looking into the research and found that I couldn’t find these ingredients anyway, no matter how deeply I looked, all I found was that it may contain rayon and that was it. Couldn’t find anything else, so I went back to the woman and then spoke to Hey Girls UK as well. And back to Time of The Month, and then approached lots of different organic cotton companies globally. I even spoke to one from Australia and said, “So what is it about this organic cotton that makes it different?” Everyone was explaining, right, so we don’t have plastic in our products, and I was like, “What do you mean plastic?” And they said, “Well your pads are 90% plastic.” I was completely shocked. I didn’t know. One of the companies, like said, “Right, we’ll send you two of our boxes, try them out, tell us what you think.”

So, they sent them to me, and I tried them. My rash completely cleared up; my stomach cramps weren’t gone but they were very slightly better. And then, of course, looking into these products, I saw they had ingredients on the back, there wasn’t all this plastic in. They clearly saw what I was using and what was being absorbed into my body. So, as I used these products more and more, my allergic reaction completely cleared up and now I don’t have one at all. And alongside the medication I was on, I’ve been able to almost completely eradicate my period pain. So, I use the same with my sister who was also having allergic reactions and her rashes completely cleared up as well. And so then, of course, I recommended to other people and 100% I’ve had the same feedback from them, of course it won’t be the same for everyone, but from the people that I’ve recommended it to and have tried it for reusable period pads and pants or menstrual cups, have all said I’m not having the allergic reaction I’ve had before. So, I was thinking, why aren’t these companies telling us that they’re full of these chemicals or plastics if they are potentially harmful and clearly harmful to our body?

So, I was aiming towards the, you need to tell us the ingredients so we can make an informed decision because there are lots of campaigners, one amazing one in Cardiff is Ella [Daish] and she does the End Period Plastic campaign, which is huge now. And she’s really fighting for that. And she meets with the companies themselves, properly campaigning, and she’s an inspiration in this campaign, definitely in all the work that I do. So we’re looking at the, we want you to tell us the ingredients and we want it to be a legal requirement that these ingredients are on the packaging because we have every right to know what is in these products so we can make our own informed decisions about what we are using and work out what’s possibly making such an issue for our bodies. Because, you know, we use shampoo and conditioner and everything, they’ve all got the ingredients on. And sometimes if we’re looking for ingredients that we don’t want to use for our bodies or for our scalp, we don’t use them. So why shouldn’t it be the same for such an intimate area of our body?

Le’Nise: Amazing. What you’re doing is so amazing. And, you know, certainly I see it in my practice where as soon as the woman that I work with, they change the menstrual products that they’re using, whether they switch to organic tampons or they make a switch to a different type of menstrual pad, they see a change in their period, generally their period pain reduces and they see other benefits. So, the campaign is primarily about that menstrual product manufacturers need to show the ingredients in their products. So, transparency, which is super, super important. Have you spoken to any of these kind of big menstrual product manufacturers?

Molly: At the moment I’m aiming to get 10,000 signatures on my petition. Unfortunately, I became ill just after the summer holiday, so I had to kind of put it on pause. But now I’ve picked it back up again as I’ve finally gotten everything back on track with the campaign. And I’m really pushing now, on paper and online we’ve got over 2,000 and we got that really quickly in like a month. So, I’m going to push that again and get even more, which I know we will. And I’ve emailed and the best way to get through to these people sometimes is messaging them on social media because they reply easier. So, I’ve spoken Lil-lets and Always and I’ve said, “Why aren’t these ingredients on your packaging?” And the most interesting response I have was that of Bodyform UK who came back and said, “Hi, Molly,” and I did it off my personal account so they wouldn’t make an association with Love Your Period and said “Unfortunately, we do not have enough room on our products packaging to be able to list the ingredients.” And I was thinking, “how many ingredients do you have to not be able to fit them on that packaging?” So, it was crazy. So, I’ve done that much. And then when I’ve got the petition, I will be booking in meetings and all sorts, I’ll be going all the way. I’m not going to be dropping this one until it’ properly set in place.

Le’Nise: What’s really interesting is that you’d think that they would have started to respond to this because there are so many new companies coming up in this kind of menstrual health fem tech space. So, you’ve got the brands that you’ve mentioned, you’ve got the likes of OHNE, DAME, Daye, who are all really proudly talking about no plastic, organic cotton. You’ve got all the different menstrual cup companies, period underwear. So, you’d think that, you know, these companies would respond because they’re losing sales from people, switching from, you know, always using Tampax or Always or Bodyform to these other products. So, I think the work that you’re doing is absolutely amazing. How has all the campaigning that you’ve done, and all the educating that you’ve done, changed your relationship with your period?

Molly: I found that I’ve learned an awful lot about my period, my whole body through the work that I’ve done, whether it be learning about periods themselves in the first place, learning about other people’s periods, finding about other people’s experiences. I feel also as well, the thing that’s really made a difference in my life is, I’ve learnt the proper ways to cope and manage with my periods. So, yes, I did have to have intervention when it came to the pain I was having because I couldn’t function normally with it. However, I was able to find ways that I almost have been able to work with my period instead of against it, which is something I would have laughed out about a year ago. And I remember it sometimes and it makes me laugh. And I think, how does that work? I don’t understand. But now I do understand, I’ve learnt the right way, So I increased the right food, so I make sure I’d stick spinach in every meal when I’m on my period and I eat dark chocolate in the evening and I find that really actually helps my energy levels and changing my products, using different oils and things and essential oils in order to keep me calm and mood swings and also with any discomfort I do get, I found that I managed to finally find a way that works for me after so long of trying to find something that helps through recommending and hearing so many different suggestions of how people cope with theirs. I finally found my personalised way to work with my period and now, whereas before it was a burden, I really kind of hated it more. I’ve now managed to love it. Hence the campaign, because now that I found the right way to work with it, it works, and it makes sense because it’s your body. It’s part of you. You need to work with your body. So, it makes sense that by working with it, things will become a lot easier. So, I think I have the campaign definitely to thank for that. I finally found a way to live life normally and be thankful for my periods and realise that it’s a gift.

Le’Nise: So, having said all of that, you know, working with your period, seeing it as a gift, seeing loving your period now. What would you say to someone similar to you who got her period early and knowing what you know now, what would you say to her about her period?

Molly: Keep going with it. Of course, you have to just keep trying all the different alternatives you can. Don’t give up on it. Don’t let your periods take a week of your life away from you. So many of us for so long go well, that’s it, I’ve started this week, I don’t care, I’m going to be self-destructive, I’m going to eat everything I want, I’m not going to do any work. I did that so long, my excuse for not studying was I’m on my period this week. I kid you not. I did not study for a week. And that was my excuse because the discomfort of sitting there for so long and you felt like you could feel you’re on your period and I just let the mood swings without doing anything and them really control my life almost. So really, you’ve just got to try and find the best way that you can to continue your life the best way that you can and to the best quality that you can whilst you’re on your period and realise that your body doesn’t hate you. It’s not doing this because it’s trying to punish you, it’s doing this because it’s giving you a gift. Isn’t it amazing that we have these periods and what they’re able to do? We were able to bring life into this world. How incredible is that? I took A level of biology and it’s my favourite, I’m a real science girl. The fact that the human body can do something like that, it completely fascinates me. So really do see it as a gift. Do see it is something you should be really lucky to have and stick with it because it will get easier, definitely.

Le’Nise: So, what’s next for you? So, you’re in the middle of your A-levels, do you have any thought about what’s next with the campaign and where you personally?

Molly: So, I’m hoping to get my A-levels and then I want to go off to university. And I think I want to do nursing. Something period related. For the campaign, I’m definitely going to look into this education now as I’m starting the practical stages with the Welsh government and fight more with this ingredients petition and really just building up on this stigma as well. So, on the social media pages, we have a Twitter, Facebook and Instagram and you know, we’re starting a Tik Tok account just because so many people use that. And you know, if it’s going to help people, then I’ve got some girls in my team who want to start that. We’re going to be starting a Snapchat account as well. We’re really trying to go through ways that people see as normal everyday life in order to talk about periods, if that makes sense. So, we’re trying to incorporate it into aspects of everyone’s lives. So social media at the moment is the way that we’re going. I’m leaving that to the rest of the team because I can work Instagram, but that’s about it. I’m not very good with anything else, which is quite funny considering I’m a teenager. But yes, so they’re doing all that. So really, it’s just our main focus will always be spreading the word and just getting as many people as possible to, even if it’s not love their periods, just accept their periods.

Le’Nise: Brilliant. I think you are amazing and what you’re doing is amazing. Where can people find out more about the campaign? And where can they sign the petition?

Molly: So, our Instagram page is @loveyourperiod. Both petitions are in the link in the bio and they can be signed from anyone all over the world. We have a Twitter page, @loveyourperiod1 and then our Facebook page is The Love Your Period Campaign. But whichever one you go on to, you’ll be able to branch out to any of the other pages from there.

Le’Nise: Brilliant. So, if listeners take one thing away from everything you’ve said, what would you want that to be?

Molly: Periods are 100% normal, and no matter how much we try to ignore them, they are always going to be there, so the best thing that we can do is accept them and learn to love them.

Le’Nise: Brilliant, wise words from a very wise lady. Thank you so much for coming on to the show, Molly. All of the details about the campaign will be in the show notes, including a link to the petition. I really encourage you to sign what Molly is doing and what her team are doing is so, so important.

Period Story Podcast, Episode 13: Jasmin Harsono, Honour and Embrace Your Period

Period Story Podcast Episode 13 Jasmin Harsono

It’s Endometriosis Awareness Month and for the 13th episode of Period Story, I was so pleased to speak to Jasmin Harsono, a reiki master and teacher, sonic artist, intuitive wellbeing guide and founder of Emerald and Tiger. Jasmin shares her 20 year journey to getting an endometriosis diagnosis.

Jasmin talked about feeling like her first period was very strange and unnatural. She said that she was able to piece together what was happening to her from conversations with friends and then just got on with it.

Jasmin shares the journey she’s been on with her period, menstrual health and wellbeing. She says that she now feels very empowered by her period and feels the wisdom and power in it.

Jasmin says that it took her over 20 years of tests, back and forth with her doctors and a trip to A&E to get a formal endometriosis diagnosis. She says this has empowered her to share her period story so that others don’t have to go through what she did.

She says that sharing her story has helped others, when they’ve discovered their symptoms are similar to hers, to reach out to their GP and get help. Jasmin says that anyone with period problems needs to keep going back to their GPs until they get referred or the support they deserve.

Finally, Jasmin talks about her work as a reiki master and how this has affected her relationship with her period. She says that having awareness of universal energy within has helped her get unstuck emotionally, physically, spiritually and mentally.  Listen to hear the beautiful reiki treatments Jasmin gives herself everyday.

Jasmin says that we should share our period stories to help empower others and help break taboos around menstrual health and I completely agree!

Get in touch with Jasmin:











Jasmin Harsono is an Author, Reiki Master Teacher, Sonic Artist, and Intuitive Wellbeing Guide. Jasmin shares a wealth of healing experience offering transformational tools that can be used in everyday life. She is the founder of Emerald and Tiger, a conscious lifestyle brand promoting positive awareness through vibrant connection to the body, mind and spirit. Jasmin has collaborated with brands such as Goop, Selfridges, and Crabtree & Evelyn and has featured in Women’s Health, Vogue, and Forbes publications. Jasmin’s practise is based in London, where she offers one-to-one treatments, training, wellbeing guidance, creative consultancy, group and corporate workshops and retreats.


Le’Nise: On today’s episode, we have Jasmin Harsono. Jasmin is a reiki master and teacher, sonic artist, and intuitive wellbeing guide. She is the founder of Emerald and Tiger, a conscious lifestyle brand promoting positive awareness through vibrant connection to body, mind, and spirit. Led to reiki through her own experiences of ill health, Jasmin now supports others, guiding them to tap into their true self and to understand they have everything they need in order to live well and feel whole from the inside out.

Welcome to the show.

Jasmin: Thank you so much for having me.

Le’Nise: This is a question I always start every podcast off with. Tell me the story. Tell me about the story of your very first period.

Jasmin: Well, I remember it was my first year in secondary school. I was aged 11, and I remember that morning before going to school, feeling a little bit off, had pains and sensations that I hadn’t really felt before. And yeah, I guess my mood was a little bit … I was feeling a bit low. And then I went to school. And then after school, I remember rushing all the way to home and dying to go to the toilet. And I thought, “Oh, what’s going on,” had these cramps and stuff. And I went to the toilet. I went to my grandma’s house, my nana, and I went to the bathroom and it was my first bleed, discovered my first bleed.

I remember it quite vividly and very instantly feeling a kind of a shame attached to it. I don’t know why, but it was just like, “What’s going on? I’m bleeding.” It just felt very unnatural, my first bleed. And I felt very shy about it and I didn’t really discuss it with my family, as such, not that I can recall. And we didn’t really have talks about it that much before, either. It was just kind of a weird thing to happen. But yeah, that’s what I recall from my first period.

Le’Nise: If you didn’t discuss it with your family beforehand, how did you know what it was?

Jasmin: I’d heard about it through conversation. I’ve got two sisters who are older than me. It’s not that it wasn’t unheard of, but when you just don’t know that knowing or feeling of what it’s going to be like yourself and it wasn’t a conversation that we had had in the house, like a sit down conversation. But obviously, it was going on and I’d seen sanitary wear and stuff like that around the house, so I was aware of what I had to wear for my period and those kind of things. But it was just not something that we would sit down and discuss as a family. And at school, there was a little bit of education in school and conversations within friendship circles. It was kind of that’s how I knew about it.

Le’Nise: When you had your first period, did you go to your sisters and say, “I need a tampon” or “I need a pad”?

Jasmin: No, I can’t actually remember where I got my sanitary wear from, but I don’t recall going to anyone. Maybe we had some around the house, I would imagine, because I had my mom, my two sisters. And so I’m pretty sure there would probably be some sanitary wear around the house.

Le’Nise: Okay. And so you went and you figured it out on your own. And at what point did your mom or your sisters discover that you had had your first period?

Jasmin: I actually don’t remember the conversation I had probably because it may have been a passing conversation. My mom had five children, so it was probably not something that I felt called to discuss. As I said, I was feeling a little bit strange about it as well. I probably internalized a lot of that and just got on with things. And that’s the kind of thought I remember with my period, just getting on with things and just dealing with it on a monthly basis.

Le’Nise: Why do you think that … You’ve mentioned a couple of words that are quite interesting and actually thread through a lot of the conversations I’ve had on this podcast. You’ve mentioned shame, shyness, feeling strange. If you think back now, where do you think those feelings came from?

Jasmin: I think through conversations in school with friends and the conversations that we had around periods was always … It was periods were gross almost. It was like, “Oh, no. You’ve got your period.” There wasn’t really an empowered message behind having a period. It was more like blood is yucky. It was that kind of thing, your smell, those kind of things. And I had that kind of connection to it. And I suppose I attached to that trail of thought for so long and that’s what I thought about periods. Every time that it would come, it was like, “Oh, no. Here’s my period and here’s a couple of days of really embarrassing moments to come,” almost. That’s how I felt about it.

Le’Nise: You think all of your friends at school felt embarrassed about their period?

Jasmin: Pretty much the conversations that I had. And embarrassment or that it just wasn’t … When you’re on your period, it’s not the great few days. No one would tend to enjoy their period or embrace it.

Le’Nise: Do you think that’s changed for you?

Jasmin: 100%. That was a very long time ago. I’m 38 now. I’ve been on such a journey with my periods, my menstrual health and wellbeing. And I’ve come around full circle. I talk about my period a lot to people and have discovered the reasons why I had so many awful symptoms for many years and suffered. And I am now feeling very empowered by my period. I honour my period, and every month I feel that I see the power and wisdom in it. And I use that time when my period comes as a time for reflection, connection, and self-love and healing. For me, it’s completely different. Before, I used to absolutely avoid any period talk or really feel disconnected from it, and now it’s a time to honour and embrace.

Le’Nise: What created that shift in you to go from almost this embarrassment and shame to the other end of the spectrum, feeling really empowered and honoring your period?

Jasmin: Definitely through knowledge and education, my own curiosity. I suffered with chronic pain from my periods. It would last pre, during, and post. I had severe heavy bleeding. I would flood. I would bleed all the way through my sanitary wear, my pants. That would happen to me every month. I used to go to the GP regularly, inform them of all these symptoms I was having, and it came to a point where I really wanted to know why this was happening to me because the more conversations I was having with other people, I realized that actually my period wasn’t the same as other people. Theirs were shorter. Mine were longer. My periods were heavier. Theirs weren’t so heavy. There was lots of things I was like, “Okay. Mine’s not the same.” And I think through my own curiosity, I began to really learn about myself, and that was in itself kind of empowering.

Le’Nise: How long do you think this journey took for you?

Jasmin: Yes. Yes. I went back and forth. I got my period at 11. I pretty much got the symptoms of heavy bleeds, chronic pain straightaway, and I lived through that for years until I was in my late 20s. I couldn’t go on the pill or anything like that because it caused me severe migraines. I had to really go through this cycle every month. And I had very long periods. They would be around 10 days of bleed, heavy bleeding. And I couldn’t get any answers. I had tests done, and it was kind of like, this is what periods are like. That’s what I was told. And I kept thinking, “This is not it. This is not it.”

But I had an incident where I had a cyst rupture. I didn’t know it was that at the time. But I had this. I went to emergency A&E, and then I had some other tests done, scans. And I was told … I was diagnosed with endometriosis. By that time, I understood. I had a level of understanding that my whole life, all these experiences with my period were because I had endometriosis. Then I had a link to that and the more knowledge I had, the more power I had and the less blame I had on my period. It was like, “Oh, I actually had something wrong with me all this time. I had this condition.” And then I wanted to support myself in getting well. That’s how it became full circle in the end.

Le’Nise: How long did it take for you to get your endometriosis diagnosis? So that-

Jasmin: Over 20 years.

Le’Nise: 20 years. Oh my gosh. And you said that at one point you were told, “This is what periods are like.”

Jasmin: Yeah, the norm.

Le’Nise: And how do you feel about that, knowing what you know now and your experience of your period now?

Jasmin: Now, as I said, I share my period story a lot. I really want the next generation, our youth to be empowered by their period, talk about it, don’t be ashamed by it. And so really now I’m not angry or anything about my life or what happened because I can’t really do anything about that. But what I can do is bring my story to the forefront and like other women, just share my story and hope and enable that that helps to start to strengthen the education system because sexual menstrual health needs to be so much better. It’s more pointed towards men than women. And yet women have our periods every month. That’s something that I think needs to change still.

And then, really, I really honor my period now, as I said. I feel completely different to how I did before. There’s a whole change in me physically, mentally, and emotionally towards my period because now I have the awareness. That’s really powerful.

Le’Nise: What do you do to honor your period?

Jasmin: I use an app so I can really focus on my cycle, my moods. And so I know when I’m due. And so I use that time to reflect and connect to myself. I know that I need to slow down. As I said, I have endometriosis and so I don’t have a normal period as such. I still have symptoms, although I manage them much better. I have to use that time to slow down and rest. And so I use that time to tap into my creativity and really just look after myself. It’s all about tapping into self-care and self-love during that time.

Le’Nise: You’ve really taken a lot of learnings from what’s best for your body during this time. And what do you find that your period is different? If you notice that throughout your menstrual cycle, you’re pushing yourself a lot more, do you see the effects of that in your next period or maybe the one after that?

Jasmin: Yes. For example, last week, my period was late and I very rarely have a late period. And I know that the month before, I was under a lot of stress and I put a lot of stress on myself because I was very busy with my work schedule. I worked through quite heavily through when I had my period, which works against me and can cause fatigue in my body that can be long-lasting. My period came late, and I had a feeling this would happen. Period came late and then I had really heavy bleed on Friday, last Friday gone so that I couldn’t even walk down the road for a few minutes. I kept bleeding through and flooding, and it was just very awful experience.

And that’s the learning in it because I know next month I have to really schedule my work so I’m not doing so much during that time. I need to really honour, embrace that time to slow down. That is the part of the month for me, personally, that I need to slow down and not do so much so that I can honor the bleed that’s happening and just allow myself to take some time out. Yeah. There’s always learning in every month. Every period, there’s something to take from.

Le’Nise: And it’s almost a counter-cultural message where this idea of slowing down for however long your period is and connecting and resting and reflecting because I’ve talked about this before, but I know you have your own business and we get told as being entrepreneurs, it’s this hustle, go go go all the time. But this idea of taking a step back, just even a tiny step back, just you almost feel … Sometimes, for me, certainly, I feel a sense of, “Maybe I shouldn’t be doing it” even though I know it’s the best thing for my body.

Jasmin: Yeah. There’s shame attached to that as well, I think. All of these things like, “Oh, we shouldn’t take a break. We need to work really hard.” I think that’s the system that we work on, definitely in the Western world. It’s like go go go. The harder you work, the more that you achieve and more success you’ll get. It’s that mentality. But I do work for myself and I work seven days a week. But I know that in my body if I don’t take a rest, the consequences are much more, the knock-on effects means that I could then be out, have this chronic fatigue for weeks and weeks and weeks, which means I can’t really function 100%. And so then my work is not … I’m not really doing my work to the best.

I think it’s really good that if you really honor what’s happening with you during your cycle every month, you can see and be aware of how you personally function, to be aware of that, and then work around that. It really benefits you much more. And so the time that you can put into work where you’re energized and you can put 100% into that time and then know that that works for you. I think that’s the best way in terms for me, that’s the best way that I work. Now, that feels very powerful to do that. I don’t have anyone to answer to, so for me, it’s a little bit different.

If you’re in a workplace, I definitely think more and more now with their having discussions within work about period health and so hopefully, you can go to someone in HR and say, “Look, this is what happens during my period. And so can I take a few days to work from home or can I work shorter days so I’m not traveling during busy hours, the commute hours?” and stuff. That’s why sharing and having the conversations are really important. I definitely would be having those if I was working for someone else.

Le’Nise: And March is endometriosis awareness month and you said that you’ve been sharing your stories a lot, your story of endometriosis diagnosis and you symptoms. Have you heard any feedback about the impact that your story has had on others?

Jasmin: Yeah. I think through several talks that I’ve given, lots of people have felt more empowered to share their own story. And also, have discovered that their symptoms are very similar to mine, and then have gone and reached out to their GP and got some help and really gone in there and said, “Look, I’m not leaving until I get seen by a specialist.” They have this information now where they feel like, “Well, she did that, so I’m going to do that” kind of thing. And I have a Facebook group I started a couple of years ago, a community group that’s now grown to 6,000 women across the world. And I know that my message in a subtle way has empowered other people to get their story out. And in my heart, I feel like that they’re sharing their story, that they’re helping someone else, too. Even if it’s one person, you feel like you’re spreading the word. Word of mouth is really strong in this kind of area where women don’t have a strong platform. If we can just do a little bit each, I think that will make a difference.

Le’Nise: Absolutely. One story has the power to change so many other people’s lives, absolutely.

Jasmin: And I’ve also connected with so many people that are studying endometriosis, studying the pain, the science, incredible people that are doing so much work behind it and haven’t got much funding and are just so passionate about really helping people because endometriosis, adenomyosis, lots of PCOS, these conditions are relatively high. There’s lots of people, there’s one in 10 people have endometriosis. It’s something that we should all be talking about anyway, but yet, there’s still a lack of information, a lack of knowledge. People are being diagnosed every 10 years or something like that. It takes 10 years to get diagnosed.

I think it’s really important that we just keep sharing our story. And that, for me, starts an opening where hopefully you’ll get to the point where in the UK, the government will listen to this more and realize that women’s stories need to be heard, whether it’s endometriosis or a mental health condition or something else. Yeah.

Le’Nise: What would you say to someone who comes to you and says, “I went to my GP, but I just felt a bit fobbed off”?

Jasmin: I would tell them to go back and go back again. That’s what I did. I did that for years and years and years. I said to you I had problems since I was age 11 and had gone to the doctor’s regularly. I had been told to go on antidepressants, I had IBS. I had so many different diagnoses and went down different routes until I had my cyst rupture. I know what it’s like to be fobbed off and told, “You’ve got this” or “There’s nothing wrong with you. It’s a normal period.” But now, knowing this information, I can’t really stand for anyone just to sit back and go through it. The message is just keep going back to your doctor. You have the information. There’s an incredible lady called Nancy Nook who shares really all of the best consultants to seek around the world. And so you can go to your GP and say, “This is who I want to see.”

Or the other route is, if you have the money, you can go and book an appointment with a private doctor, have a consultation with them, and ask them to refer you back onto the NHS to see this specific consultant. And this really works as well. Say you pay £150 to see a private consultant and then get yourself back on the NHS to see the consultant, this route works really well as well. And that helped me when I was diagnosed with cancer, which was years ago. But I know that there’s ways of getting to your consultant much faster than through your GP, and that’s one of them.

You just have to keep supporting yourself and know that what you’re going through is something that you really need to support. If I had known how much it had affected my fertility, for example, I think I would’ve been at the GP every day knocking down the door, but I just didn’t have awareness. And so now, I just … The most important message is to get seen and be heard.

Le’Nise: And what would you say, once they’ve got the appointment, they’re in the door, how would you suggest that they prepare for that appointment?

Jasmin: The most important thing is to keep a journal, to really write down all of their … keep a diary of their symptoms, what they eat, their cycle, how long a cycle is, what their bleed is like, what their mental health symptoms, what their digestive experiences are. Just keeping a journal of everything so that they have that information before they go and see the consultant and therefore, they can pretty much show them everything they’re going through on a monthly basis. And that really helps them to be, “Look, I’ve got all the information here. This is what’s going on for me.” So they can’t be told that their situation is that you’ve got a normal period because there’s evidently not if they’ve got all these symptoms connecting them to whether it’s endometriosis or something else.

I think keeping a diary is the most important thing. And then to maybe bring someone with you at the appointment so that they can hear everything because sometimes you’re digesting information and that’s all you need to do. And someone else can just sit there and take the notes for you. Yeah, and just make sure that you stay with that consultant if you’re happy with them. Make sure you create a relationship with them because that really helps. And usually, my consultant was also the person that was operating on me. I think it’s good to create a relationship with someone knowing that they have your best interests at heart.

Le’Nise: Can you talk a little bit about your work as a reiki practitioner and how that has … We talked about energy and slowing and how that’s affected maybe your relationship with your body and your period.

Jasmin: Definitely having the awareness of universal energy within, which is this chi, this life force energy, has helped me to get unstuck emotionally, physically, spiritually, and mentally. I always have this feeling of never feeling alone. I feel empowered by what’s going on in my body. By that, I mean that I have this awareness that, okay, I’m not feeling so good today and I can check in with myself and see why, and I can bring together this timeline and knowledge of why I’m not feeling well. And reiki helps me with that. It just helps to open up this awareness to all that’s going on within. And so you have, in fact, a natural ability to heal yourself because you are not being this person that’s stuck and not doing anything about it.

When you’re more open and embrace what’s going on within, you’re able to really understand that information, that your personal information of what’s going on inside your body and therefore do something about it. It really just helps me to be more aware and in that, I’m able to take something from that and do something about it. It’s the awareness and the action that goes afterwards, if that makes sense.

Le’Nise: And so do you have any particular tools that you use that you would be willing to share with the listeners?

Jasmin: I use clary sage oil on a regular basis to relieve the inflammation, and I massage that into my womb, into my hips, into my thighs, and my back, my lower back, the areas where I tend to get a lot of pain from the endometriosis and keeps everything really moving. In Chinese medicine, they talk about that area, if it’s cold, that you’ll more tend to have the pain and inflammation hanging around in those spaces, so massaging the area regularly keeps it nice and warm and helps everything to stay in flow. That really helps me, and it feels really good. It also feels like I’m honoring my womb as well. It’s kind of like an offering of self-care to my womb.

And I give myself a reiki treatment every day. That’s with my hands placed on my body, scanning the body and just placing the hands where it might need some reiki. That’s just tapping in to see where in my body I’m feeling stuck or I’ve got any pain. And then I place my hands on that area and send reiki there. And reiki is always within you, but the touch element, it just helps to support you more and feel really connected. And it’s a really nice way to meditate, I find. I bring in the breath, take some deep breaths and just allow this healing process to happen.

And I think food is really important to mention. We’re all very different. It’s really important to know what foods you digest well and to digest warming foods during the cold months. I always find that that really helps me to feel better. Soups and stews when it’s cold help me to, again, warm up the body and keep everything in flow. But just making sure that you’re eating well, drinking lots of water. And for me, I have a daily meditation practice, which really helps me physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually to stay connected.

And I think also, a period tracker. I use an app called Moody, which is amazing because you can track your moods, you can track your period, your cycle. You can also leave notes in there. You can journal. Anything that might be a little bit odd that month, you can write about it. And really generally, keep a daily journal of how you’re feeling, checking in with yourself. I’ll do a daily check in, “How am I feeling today?” And then I’ll just check through physically, mentally, emotionally how am I feeling. And that, I really find really powerful because I can look through that and just see if there’s anything that’s spiked, that’s peaked, that might not feel right, and then I can look into that more.

And I think also having conversations with others. If you’re feeling like something is not right or you feel … Yeah, it’s just basically sharing with other people, I think is really important, to find your trusted circle that you can talk about these things and not feel any shame or embarrassment. I called my sister on Friday and said, “I’m walking down the road. My period … I’m flooding through. It’s a nightmare. I’m not feeling well. It’s making me feel quite anxious.” I had all these conversations. And just in having that with someone who can relate with me because I know that she’s gone through that herself, then we have this connection where I feel like it’s not just me. And then it’s like that feeling of oneness, and I’m not going crazy. This is happening to someone else. I think connection with a trusted person who will relate to your story is really important.

And you can find that through Facebook groups or it doesn’t have to be a family member because it can be someone else, a stranger. You can find people online that are going through this, too. If you don’t have a community near you in person, you can find someone online to talk to about it. But I think that’s really important as well, to stay connected and talk about those things.

Le’Nise: You have quite a rich practice of honoring your body and staying connected with body using lots of different methods, which obviously I loved hearing about the food side of it, the meditation. Are there any specific, say, reiki techniques or meditation practices that you would share with someone who is going through something similar?

Jasmin: The most beautiful practice that I have is just a reiki treatment where I place one hand on my womb, so my right hand on my womb, my left hand on my heart, and I breathe into those spaces. I lay down, find somewhere comfortable, and I usually do this before I go to bed and in the morning when I wake up. But I share reiki in those spaces and I breathe into my womb. I just allow my breath to go in there and expand the breath into that space. You can visualize light, bright white light coming into that area, just receiving renewed energy into the womb. And then when you breathe out, you’re letting go of any tension, any pain that you’re holding onto. You’re breathing into the womb and then taking the breath into the heart space and just really opening and expanding these areas. And I find it really comforting. I find it really beautiful to connect in that way, and I see both spaces, I visualize roses in those space to … just an opening of beautiful red roses, which really helps me to feel like I’m loved.

And I think that’s really important for me in particular because sometimes we take on so much of the external world. And so this just gives you this time, even if it’s five minutes in the day, just to reconnect back and realize that your womb is creating so much beauty for you, and sometimes we get attached to, oh, this heavy period every month and that can really bring us down, like it did on Friday. When I reconnect through meditation, I bring an offering back to my womb to say thank you, in a way, for my bleed, for maybe being able to birth a child in the future or for me to connect to my creativity. It’s those kind of practices that I really embrace. And that’s one particular one that I will do on a daily basis.

Le’Nise: I think that’s so beautiful and it really shifts the narrative from … Certainly I see this with other women that I work with who have endometriosis. It’s the shift from this feeling of fighting with your body to honoring it, and that whole visual of visualizing roses, I just love that.

Jasmin: Yeah. Because you can go even further and use your senses. You can smell them and journey with the roses, which is really beautiful and you can extend into a meditation. And that’s just so beautiful when you can just visualize them growing and growing. And rose tea, which I drink regularly, is really beautiful. You can also honor your womb in that way, of just creating, making a little bit of time, a mindful moment of boiling the kettle, putting some rose petals in the cup, pouring hot water in, waiting for that to cool down, taking some deep breaths, and drinking that tea slowly. And just visualize that rose tea moving through into your womb space. Rose is really great for digestion and for your health of your skin and stuff like that. It’s got great qualities to it anyway, but that’s a really nice mindful moment of having a tea ceremony for your womb, which is really beautiful.

Le’Nise: Yeah. Wow, so lovely. Can you talk a little bit more about your work as a reiki master, your business, Emerald and Tiger, and maybe talk a little bit about your amazing book that has just come out?

Jasmin: Self Reiki came out in December in the UK and January, US, Canada. And it’s a book that focuses more on one specific area of reiki, which is hands-on healing and the power of touch. And hands-on healing has been around for a very long time, way before reiki has, the system of reiki has. But what it is in the book is just gives you these tools, these 40 exercises and meditations around health and wellbeing to help you to tap into your natural ability to heal yourself. In reiki, we do give achievements to awaken you, to bring this awareness of life force energy moving within you. But we know that we were all born with this energy. We are all created by this energy.

And so, really, the book gives you a little bit of this background information of what reiki is, history, and insights, and then there’s so many different exercises that you can follow. The wellbeing ones will be … For example, today’s a full moon, so there’s a full moon meditation in there so you can really exercise the process of writing down all the things that you want to let go of under a full moon and feel empowered to let go of those. That’s a really nice exercise to do. Or there’s ones around if you have chronic back issues, you can follow a reiki treatment to help to relieve that pain and see why that pain’s coming up for you because often when we talk about working with reiki, we find that the roots of the problem isn’t the physical back pain, that there might be an emotional attachment to why that back pain is coming up.

Yeah, there’s lots of exercises in there that would be for everyone, generally, on a daily basis. And so it’s really about creating this daily treatment for yourself every day, a little bit of self-care to really honor yourself and be more in tune with yourself personally because although I feel that we’re all connected and we are in so many special ways, we all individually go through things personally. And so it’s really about tapping into that and finding why that is, who am I, what’s going on with me today and having that check in.

Jasmin: And my business, Emerald and Tiger, I offer one-to-one guidance, corporate group workshops, events, retreats, and products such as my book. And Emerald and Tiger fuses the synergies of modern life and conscious living and ancient practices, so practices such as reiki and sound healing to help people to tap into their natural ability to heal. Really, I am the facilitator to help to bring people … come back to their true self. And I offer, for example, a session called Breathe Love, which is about people breathing love back into their bodies. It starts with a breathing exercise for 20 minutes, guided meditation and then lots of sound healing. And all of these tools help to bring us back to the energy that’s within us, that life force energy. All of my work always comes full circle back to the essence of who we are, what we are made up of.

Le’Nise: If someone wanted to get in touch with you … As someone’s listening to this podcast and really connecting what you’re saying about circling back to the energy and the ability to heal yourself and the meditations that you talked about, how would they connect with you?

Jasmin: I have a website emeraldandtiger.com. They can reach me at hello@emeraldandtiger.com, send me an email if they’re curious or have any questions. And I’m also on Instagram, Emerald and Tiger.

Le’Nise: Brilliant. One last question, if listeners, if they take one thing away from all of the beautiful things that you’ve talked about, what would you want that to be?

Jasmin: I would definitely start with keeping a journal of their period and creating their own period story, so really finding out on a daily basis what their mood’s like and tracking their period and understanding their particular cycle because everyone’s is different. That’s really the key thing. But also, if I can add to that, is to share their period story, to have those conversations because that really empowers other people, the youth, the next generation that are coming, we hope that they’ll be talking about it more and more and more so that it doesn’t stay a taboo subject anymore, that we can really honor our full femininity and the amazingness of our womb, that we don’t often do.

Le’Nise: Beautiful. Thank you so much for coming on the show.

Jasmin: Thank you so much for having me. It was a pleasure. Thank you.

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