Season 11 of the podcast is here! I’m excited to share that my guest for episode 100 (!!!) of the podcast is Dija Ayodele, the acclaimed skin care expert, entrepreneur, founder of the award winning Black Skin Directory, author of the global bestselling Black Skin – The Definitive Skincare Guide and co-founder of CLICKED!, a confidence boosting AI powered skin health tool built to make skincare less confusing.
In this episode, Dija shares:
- How having a drama-free period proved to be helpful after her family moved to London from Sierra Leone in 1994
- The Julia Roberts Pretty Woman moment she had when she was trying to get her first book, Black Skin published
- What she would add into the book, four years on
- Why she’s begun coaching other skincare professionals who are the start of their journey
- How her new business, CLICKED! will help you understand your skin, your skincare concerns and give you back control over your skin
- And of course, the story of her first period
Dija says that every time you do things your way and in a way that’s authentic to you, you will never fail. She says that even if you don’t get the results that you were expecting or wanted, you’re still going to get the results that you need. Dija says that with core self-belief, you will still be able to succeed.
Thank you, Dija!
Get in touch with Dija:
Black Skin – The Definite Skincare Guide
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LISTEN IN SPOTIFY
SHOW TRANSCRIPT
Le’Nise Brothers: Hi Dija. Thank you so much for coming onto the show today. I’m really excited to speak to you and tap into all of your incredible knowledge about skincare and beauty.
But let’s start by getting into the question that I ask all of my guests, which is tell us the story of your first period.
Dija Ayodele: For sure. I will. And obviously. Also, thank you for having me. I know we’ve, this has been a long time coming, so I’m really pleased to, to be here. So first period, um, I was 10 maybe.
Yeah, 10. I was born in Sierra Leone, so I was living out in Sierra Leone. And I. I remember it was a weekend. It had to have been a weekend because I was at my cousin’s house, um, who’s pretty much like a sister to me, and she’s five years older than me and I was in her room, so I know that like I’d gone to bed in her room.
So we, we, she had a massive double bed and I’d share her bed when I was there on the weekend. So that’s why, because I wasn’t over my period didn’t start in my own house. So I was there, it was in the morning, if I remember. And. There was a bathroom adjacent. You know, you wake up in the morning, you go for a wee, everybody does that, right?
Le’Nise Brothers: Mm-hmm.
Dija Ayodele: Um, and she’d gone in and she was sat on the toilet, or, well, she sat on the bidet one anyway, there was a, there was a toilet bowl and there was a bidet as well. My auntie was bougie like that. So, so anyway, I’d gone in and want to use the toilet as well, or I’d sort of been desperate to use the toilet, so.
She either she was sat on the bidet and the toilet was free, or she was sat on the toilet and the bidet was free. Either way we went. I went in and both of us were in the toilet. So I sit down, I take down my pants and I’m like, oh my God. Blood. And. And she like looks, and I think I, I knew what it was ’cause I’d had the talk.
And her her mom is a midwife, so like in my family we have we have a professional in the family for everything. Like we have a lawyer, so an uncle who’s a lawyer, an uncle who is like, I don’t know, a rice supplier, a businessman. We’ve got someone who’s a. A medical person. My mom is a chef, so she’s like the caterer of the family.
So my auntie’s the designated medical person in the family. And obviously I was at her house, so, I believe my cousin stroke, I call her my sister she gets up, she obviously pulls her hands up and washes her hands and all that sort of stuff. Um, and she runs to get her mom who, who then comes with, pads and all that sort of stuff. And I think it was very much like I, I am like the last girl of our generation in the family. So it was very, um, if I think about it, it was very like poignant, I guess. I do all that cleanup.
And I remember going to the breakfast table and my uncle was there. Favorite uncle? I used to call him dad. He is passed away now, sadly. And he’s like, congratulations. This is like, and I just, the reason why I say this point, because I, I feel, I remember them making a bit of a. Big deal, but quiet, big deal about it.
It wasn’t like balloons and shit. Excuse my French, but it was, um. It was like, congratulations, like you’ve kind of entered this new world. And I, if I was at their house at the weekend, it meant my mom was at work. My mom used to run a hotel, so it meant she was at work. And. Do you know what? I don’t know who told her.
I don’t think it was me. Uh, but I think when she came back that evening, ’cause she’d always come back in the evening, her and her sister really close, so she’d always come back for dinner in the evening, even if she had to go back to the hotel. And I, she kind of gave me a hug and then I don’t think anything was really kind of mentioned about it, only because that might have been like maybe the start of the school summer holidays.
And so this was in 1994. Yeah. Um, so I was just about to turn 11 ’cause I turned 11 in 94, so I wasn’t, I was 10, but, but closer to 11. And the reason why I say it started school summer holidays, ’cause I don’t actually really remember having my periods in Sierra Leone because we moved to London in 94 because of the Civil War.
So it, I don’t even actually remember having maybe even two periods in Sierra Leone. So that’s why, I mean, like, it must have been the start of the summer holidays. ’cause pretty soon after that. Maybe the July or sometime that month we came to England, and obviously I’d never went back to Sierra Leone to live after that.
I mean, I’ve been to visit loads of times, but I never went back to live after that. So I don’t actually really remember like a history of monthly periods in Sierra Leone.
Le’Nise Brothers: Right. And so then when you moved to London, what was your experience of your period like in London as an 11-year-old?
Dija Ayodele: I mean, it was pretty quiet.
You know, like it’s just something that happened every month. It was pretty quiet. I tended to have quite light periods, thankfully. And I say thankfully, like it’s. If you don’t have light periods, it’s a bad thing. That was just my experience. And knowing who I am is thankful for me. And so yeah, it was pretty non-eventful.
I just remember like my older cousin who we all lived with you know, every month they put sanitary towels in the shopping basket. I think I remember kind of not having access to the same sanitary towel, the, the sanitary towels I wanted. Do you know what I mean? And I just had bog standard, you know, they weren’t even like the foldy ones.
They were just the long ones. But also like when I think back, you know. We had come from a very wealthy family, and the Civil War had basically kicked us out of Sierra Leone and we were all, like six of us living like in a two bedroom council flat. Money was tight, so not like my daughter now where I’m like, do you like the ones with the wings?
Do you like this one? You know, my, my daughter gets like full whack of choices. I just remember it was like bog standards, nothing fancy, but they were sanitary products to use. So it was pretty kind of, I think our lives were so slightly chaotic because of all the civil War stuff that happened that there wasn’t really time to kind of get emotional or hung up about stuff and because.
The reason why I say thankfully because my periods, didn’t cause me any problems. So there was no need for any hoo-ha, you know?
Le’Nise Brothers: Right.
Dija Ayodele: Because they didn’t cause me any problems. And thankfully for the situation, we were in one less problem to deal with. You know, if I was a kid who was having like mad period pains and I couldn’t go to school and you know, that would’ve just been another problem on top of all the problems we had. In our family at the time. So now when I look back on it, it’s like, well, thankfully it just came and went quietly every month and no drama.
Le’Nise Brothers: And did it continue to be like that? So as you say, no drama as you went into your twenties and thirties?
Dija Ayodele: Pretty much, yeah, I went to uni.
No drama at all. I did go on contraception, I think when I was about 16, mainly because of other reasons, not because of my periods. Mm-hmm. Um, and yeah, it was completely not dramatic, like literally two, three days over and done with didn’t really get any period pains. I think, I want to say it was after kids, I probably started having period pain.
And it was so foreign. It was so foreign. I remember, I want to say maybe after my son, I had a coil fitted and you know, the coils have a lifetime span.
Le’Nise Brothers: Mm-hmm.
Dija Ayodele: Um, and it must have been coming to its end and I didn’t realise I’d forgotten I had had it, or I had forgotten it had a lifespan. It must’ve been coming to an end.
So I started getting all these aches and pains and oh my God, I thought there was something wrong. I really thought. There is something wrong. Right? Turned out it was period pain. I just didn’t realise. I didn’t know it was period pain because I had never really experienced it. Maybe the old cramp here or there, but never experienced them.
Looking back, I remember one day just curled up on the sofa and it was because this bloody IUD had the, the hormone in it had finished. So it was, you know, so I was getting all the cramps and stuff associated and I’d started spotting and, and I went back and I was like, oh my God, maybe it might be my coil.
And I read and, and I read it and I found the book. And like, and I looked at it and I said, yeah, five years lifespan. It had been like five, just over five years since I had it. I was like, oh. And I called the doctor like, yeah, you need to get it replaced. I was like, oh, I didn’t know that. So, I have to say, you know, from a period point of view, I’ve had it, it is been pretty kind of straightforward.
And I see like my sister have like horrible period pains and stuff like that. So again, I’m like thankful I have so much stuff going on in my life that. I would hate for this to be another issue.
Le’Nise Brothers: Mm.
Dija Ayodele: That’s why I’m always like, thankful that you know, you girl, you, you just don’t have bandwidth for more issues.
Like you just don’t have that kind of bandwidth. So let’s, let’s keep it as it is.
Le’Nise Brothers: And now that you are in your forties, would you say that. It’s, it’s still the same. So you have, it’s drama free, you have the coil, it is what it is, and it comes and goes.
Dija Ayodele: I don’t have a period, but
Le’Nise Brothers: you don’t have a period.
Dija Ayodele: I don’t have, my periods were that light, that by the time I had a coil, I, I have a coil because I don’t want to have any more kids.
I’m done with my two. So my periods are that light that I don’t have, have a bleed if you like. Though I do experience and I always only know after the fact, I do experience PMS, where I’m just a bit more irritable and, and bloated. And, and the older I’ve got the sort of more I’ve tuned into the fact that yeah, this is actually PMS, this is probably when you would’ve had a period.
Le’Nise Brothers: Hmm.
Dija Ayodele: Um, if, if you were, like, if your flow was heavy enough for you to have a period, this is when it would’ve been. ’cause I am irritable, I feel a bit spotty. You know, you just feel a bit blah. Um, and I get that for a few days and then I’m like, fine after I can feel myself, cl. I physically feel myself and mentally climb out of it.
And I’m like, and as I, as I say, the older I’ve got, the more I’ve gone. That’s PMS, that’s what it is. That’s why you are a ratty cow. I see. You know, so yeah, it’s, it’s that, that I get now, but I don’t actually, again, like I say, with the amount of things I’ve got ongoing all the time. I am very grateful not to be faffing around with pads in my bag and tampons, and I’m, I am so super grateful
Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah.
Dija Ayodele: For that, only because of how I know my life is.
Le’Nise Brothers: Mm-hmm.
Dija Ayodele: Yeah. It’s not a bad thing for, you know, at, at all. And if I had it, I’d, I’d be fine. I’d cope, not a big deal, but I’m also, two things can be true. I’m also grateful that it’s not my portion.
Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah. Yeah. So given your relatively drama free experience as you described it, of having a period, is there anything that you are now sharing with your daughter who is experiencing having a period or about to have a period?
Dija Ayodele: I think the most thing for me is just that empathy. Um, in terms of, I have obviously pretty much a pain-free, drama-free period experience, and sometimes she does say, oh, I’ve got cramps and that sort of thing. I think she might have been only like maybe year and a half into her periods, so things are still sort of settling down for her.
I just have that empathy that yes, you might not have had all these feelings and experiences and pain or whatever, but other people do. And I’m trying to make sure she’s comfortable and she can speak up about because again, the other, like I say, the other reason why I’m thankful that when I was her age that my peers didn’t cause a problem.
’cause I don’t think I would, I, I don’t think I would’ve been able to speak up about it because there was so much going on, politically for our family and so much stuff that. And I was aware of, I was aware of how we’d, if you like, fallen, we were the family that used to come to London on holidays a couple times a year, first class.
We’d have expensive apartments. We’d shop at Harrods and now we were living in a two bedroom flat in like in the council estate basically. So, you know, I was aware that. We had issues.
Le’Nise Brothers: Mm-hmm.
Dija Ayodele: Um, so I don’t think I would’ve been able to speak up and obviously like my mom wasn’t there, so I don’t think I would’ve been able to speak up to be like, oh yeah, I feel like, you know, I feel shit or whatever.
Whilst with my daughter, I give her the full, full runway to be like, I don’t feel great. I’ve got period pain and I’ll make sure that my husband is well aware. She doesn’t feel good. She’s got her period pain. She her, she’s got her period. You need to be mindful that, especially like if she’s like snappy, um, I’m like.
Appropriate behaviour for a preteen with periods leave her alone. So I am a big defender of her right to be, you know, if you say you defend her shitty behaviour. No, I’m a, I’m just a big defender. I’m, I’m just like, let her be free. Um, she’s a Black girl as well. Let her be free. So I’m aware of that. So I you sometimes you can say I’m super, maybe she might say I’m overly in her business.
You know, I’ll be like, oh, do you fancy these pads? What about these pads? You know, and she’s just like, they’re pads. You know, the other day I bought like brand new, like a different design of pads and I kind of made sure, which no one did for me necessarily, but she’s got like her little emergency kit in her bag, you know, in her school bag.
She’s got period pads, she’s got wipes. She’s got, uh, headache, pain tablets, painkillers, and stuff like that, you know, which I don’t think that, so I, I guess I, maybe I overcompensate because I feel like maybe this is what should have happened for me, but didn’t happen because of everything else that was going on.
So I just give her bandwidth to be who she is. Supply the hot water bottle, snacks in bed. You know, all those things. All the things I think are nice things basically.
Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah. Yeah. Amazing parenting.
Like it’s all the things that
Dija Ayodele: I try.
Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah. If you had been experiencing what she had been experiencing.
Dija Ayodele: Yeah.
Le’Nise Brothers: You what you might have wanted.
Dija Ayodele: Yeah.
Le’Nise Brothers: I wish I had someone bringing me snacks in bed.
Dija Ayodele: She’s lucky I work from home. Right. I’m always like at home. So, um, but yeah, you, I, I, you know, I’ve had a lot of therapy over the years and that is my parenting style. I, everything I, I, I, I feel I didn’t get, I make sure that the children get, um, and again, that’s why I say I’m thankful that my periods were not, were drama free because not only would I have struggled to ask for what I needed, and I think at that age also, you don’t know what you need. You need someone to be there volunteering. Do you want a back rub, hot water bottle? You need all of that, right?
Le’Nise Brothers: Mm-hmm.
Dija Ayodele: So, because you don’t know what you need, there’s no manual that comes with having your periods.
That is my parenting style to provide all the things. And because I wouldn’t have been able to speak up about what I need or know what I need or wouldn’t have the confidence that what I needed would’ve been provided because there were frankly other problems.
Le’Nise Brothers: Mm-hmm.
Dija Ayodele: Um, I try and like make sure that she has all those things.
Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah.
Dija Ayodele: And I make sure that my son understands like, leave your sister alone. She’s not feeling great, blah, blah, blah. I make sure he understands well. He’s seven. So I’m like, you know, you. You know, you have to know about these things.
Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah. Speaking about bandwidth, that’s a word that you used a lot and you have a lot going on and I, when I was prepping for our conversation today, I was like, wow, she really does have a lot going on.
So I want to start by talking about your book. So you’re the author of a global bestselling book, like let’s just global bestselling book.
Dija Ayodele: Thank you.
Le’Nise Brothers: Black Skin, the Definitive Skincare Guide, which came out about. 4 years ago.
Dija Ayodele: Yeah. Yeah. 21.
Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah. About four years ago. Yeah. So take us back to the beginning.
Why I, I mean, this is for me, this is a rhetorical question.
Dija Ayodele: Mm-hmm.
Le’Nise Brothers: But I’m going to ask it anyway.
Dija Ayodele: Mm-hmm.
Le’Nise Brothers: Can you talk about the need to write a comprehensive skincare guide for Black women and women of color?
Dija Ayodele: There is a bit of, I’ll show you in moments with this book. Um, think Julia Roberts pretty Woman.
She goes back in the shop and she’s like, big mistake. Big, big mistake. I have that recurring theme in my life. The last sort of consumer focused skincare book that was written or geared towards women of color and Black women specifically was in the seventies by Naomi Sims.
Le’Nise Brothers: Mm-hmm.
Dija Ayodele: Um, in the seventies. And since that time. We have had other books, skincare books, beauty books, you know, published by a lot of people who are my friends, non-Black, they’re white, Asian or whatever, published. And it’s like, well, where’s the one for Black women? You know? Or the one that specifically speaks culturally as well.
And I’d spent a little bit of time helping other people write their books when they wanted to kind of be inclusive. Hey, Dij, what can I write for this? Tell me about Black skin. And, you know, I’m like, well, I’m contributing, you know, paragraphs and chapters to you lots books. And, but I, I don’t have a, a book deal or anything like, what’s going on with that?
And I also never thought I would write a book or I could write a book. Um, and I was just toddling along, contributing to other people’s books. You know, they’d ask a question, are we all colleagues and whatnot? Um, but then I got approached by a publisher who is not the publisher I published with, and, you know, I went for the meeting.
I wrote the proposal. And it then became within my reach, and then they ghosted me as in like silence, absolute silence, diddly squat, silence. And I’m at that. I’m that person who’s always like, you are not treating me like that. There’s just no way. So I started emailing, like it took three months to get an answer after obviously by this time I knew they weren’t going to go ahead with me, but it took three months. It took me finally emailing her Black assistant to be like, you can’t treat people like this. And I just kind of figured you are Black and I’m Black sister. Like, get me an answer. I didn’t, I didn’t say all of that, but obviously she knew who I was and we knew that we were each other, we were from the same heritage.
Um. So I finally get an answer. Thank you so much. But you know, we just aren’t. And I was like, how fucking dare you? Like who the hell do you think you are? So I then started researching like my own, like finding an agent and all that sort of stuff. And everyone kind of goes to me, everyone kind of said, well there’s already a book on the market for Black women called Palette.
And we say, we don’t really think that you know, this would do well, blah, blah, blah. I’ve got still got one email actually that was quite. Quite terrible in email. Like if I was to publish that email, that would make some people squirm. I keep all the receipts. Then George Floyd died, was murdered rather.
And obviously everyone remembered that, you know, oh, Black people, blah, blah, blah. So, I’m on the phone one night with a colleague, quite a senior colleague who’s white. And she’s like, Dej, why have you never written a book? I went, well, you know what? Today’s the day I said, I tell her everything. I said, this is why I’ve never written a book.
I said, actually, I’ve been trying actually, but everyone keeps ghosting me. All the publishers, everybody, agents, they ghost me. They send me emails and say, no, not for us, and blah, blah, blah. And she said, well, I know someone. And anyway, she, that must have been like, I want to say September. September after George Floyd, um, passed away.
And basically by October I had a book deal, a very good one. I never had any meetings with any publishers. Um, I had a manager. I had, I ended up having a literary manager who was just like, and this is your book deal. And because funny enough, my book had already been written, so by the time I actually got that deal and I signed it in the October without any sales meeting, no pitching, no nothing because I’d written about 30,000 words already my book was pretty much, I got the deal. And the book was pretty much finished in December.
Le’Nise Brothers: Wow.
Dija Ayodele: So it was finished basically almost a year before it was published. And then we obviously went into editing and all of that, but I had pretty much given two fingers through everybody and go, well, I’m going to self-publish.
’cause the whole time I was like, I’m self-publishing. So the reason why I’d written 30,000 words, ’cause I was like, I, I thought I was going to self-publish it. Um, so by the time it was like almost like, well, it’s a half baked book. She just needs to finish the rest of the chapters. Um, and then it was like two books split into one.
’cause as you can see, one part was like, there’s a history side side of it and then there’s a practical side of it. And then there were all these discussions, like I said, well, is it two books? Do we just separate it into two books? How do we weave it all together? Um, but that’s how like. The book came about and I remember initially like it would just be a UK publish, and I was like, no, my book must be published globally.
I really believe that people around the world are going to love it and, and be useful around the world um, they sort of stamped their feet a bit. No, no, no, no. And then I remember I was driving and my manager called me and he was like, look, yeah, book’s going published, going, going global.
We’re going to do Australia, New Zealand, South Africa. I was really gutted that there was no West Africa. ’cause obviously I’m Sierra Leonian, west Africa, I’m half Nigerian as well. But the infrastructure just doesn’t exist though. Some, some retailers, some booksellers in Nigeria did pick it up. But they could like just, there wasn’t like a formal process for them.
Not like South Africa has a formal process, Ireland has a formal process, or America has a formal process. In the week it was released in America, it was the number one selling book for my arm of that publisher in America that week. It just had like a massive spike. And it’s paid back its advance.
So like a lot of books never pay back their advance. At all. It’s paid back in advance. I get royalties now. So thank you guys. Thank you everyone for, for purchasing and putting me in a position to receive royalties now from my book, because again, I was warned that so many books don’t ever do that. Again, books about women of color that are not, that are nonfiction. Do you know what I mean?
Le’Nise Brothers: Mm-hmm.
Dija Ayodele: It’s like they don’t reach that stage. Um, but it did. My publisher ended up winning an award for the marketing for the, of the book that was done so. But again, so I, I, you know, I do have moments where I think about the other publisher and I went and I go big mistake.
Big, big, big, big. You should have followed through, so, yeah. Um, so yeah, and it continues, like, uh, skincare education around Black skin is still sorely missing, especially in colleges and educational establishments. Up until last week I was talking to a college about it and I sent them some books. Um, you know, it’s still a thing, it’s still a thing, it’s still a missing thing.
But we only change it through grassroots education. So that’s why I’m always happy to send a school library a copy because that’s how we change it.
Le’Nise Brothers: Hmm. So four years on, when you look back on your book, and I, I asked this question because actually I was looking at my book yesterday and I was thinking, oh, I would change that.
I would add this, I would add that.
Dija Ayodele: Yeah.
Le’Nise Brothers: So four years on, what would you change and what would you, what would you add into your book?
Dija Ayodele: Four years on. I mean, it’s so funny ’cause the other day I found out that, um, some learning machines were, had, had basically studied my book and were using it on AI. I don’t mind, I don’t have beef with it.
All I know is that I look at my book and I go, oh, I’d change that. I’d change that. So if you are basically teaching your learning machine on something that the author themselves thinks it’s out of date, then more fool you really. Of course I would change things like some of the, like basics, product recommendations and stuff like that, because I think those change over time, products get retired and get updated and all that. I would change that. But what I would do, you know what I would, it wasn’t, it wouldn’t be what I’d change. It’d be what I would add actually.
Le’Nise Brothers: Mm-hmm.
Dija Ayodele: So we are now in what I call a new inclusive era. And I think a lot of people, a lot of people read my book and buy my book because like they want to create their own skincare lines and skincare products and they want to learn about Black skin and all that.
And, and I’m talking specifically about, about Black founders and I believe that we are now in a new inclusive era whereas a Black founder, you also need to cater for people who are not Black. Um, especially if you are a Black founder who has dreams of scaling and you know taking over the world, you know, investment investments and all that kind of stuff, venture capital, I always say venture capitalists will sell to dogs. They don’t care. However, they, so long as you can make them back 10, 20 times the money they’ve invested in you. So if you decide, if you decide to build, brands are focused solely on Black people, you’ve already cut massive, massive amounts of people out of your market and therefore you will struggle.
We see it now, right? We see Black founders struggling now because the products aren’t. Be so they focus their whole product life on the demographics. And I always say, think about psychographics, think about what unites us, whether you are Black, white, pink, or blue. Think about those things. For me, one of the most sort of vivid things about it was I was in San Francisco.
I had a curly wig on. This, and I ended up speaking to her quite nicely. She’s a lovely woman. She told me a lot about herself. She was a white Jewish woman with thick, curly hair, the same texture as my wig and she came up to me, she said, what do you use to make your curls so juicy? And I was like, this is in my head.
I was like, this is what we need to be doing. Her money, her green dollar is as green as my dollar. Why do I, why wouldn’t I want to take her dollar if I was a business person, right?
Le’Nise Brothers: Mm-hmm.
Dija Ayodele: So, and I always say to the, I would add a chapter in about the new inclusive world we live in now, and how, if you are, I’ve always been interested in the business of beauty.
Not just beauty, but the business side of it. If you are serious about creating businesses and, and wealth for yourself and for the Black community as well. Make sure you are creating products that suit not just us, but other people. Be cultural at heart for sure. I’m not saying, hmm, I’m not saying lose your culture.
But look at things that unite us as well so that you can create the biggest marketing pool for yourself and customer pool for yourself as possible. So that’s what I’d add in. I’d add in some, I guess, maybe some wise words about the business world. Which is why when I’m thinking about my next book, it’s, it, it’s, it’s much more around, um, those kind of concepts.
It’s, it’s, it wouldn’t be solely focused. I think we definitely needed a book like Black Skin, but I think for me, my next venture into publishing will be much more rounded.
Le’Nise Brothers: So next venture, as in this is a thought that you’re having or you, you are already, you’ve got the outline, the proposal.
Dija Ayodele: No, no, I have titbits. I’ve, you know, when you, I’m a writer at heart, I’ve always been a writer, so I was about eight. I’ve always written and so I have titbits. Um, I definitely feel I’m getting, like if you asked me this question maybe two years ago, I’d be like, I have no clue. Like. Like for another book, you know, people, ’cause I think when you, you probably get this, when you write one book, people always like, so what’s your next book?
What’s your next book? People always are like, when you coming out with the next one? And maybe, maybe up till maybe 18 months ago, I’d be like, I have no clue. Like I have no plans to write another book. But next thing I, I do, I am much more, I feel I’m much more closer to a book now than I was before. But I also think that I need a couple more experiences. So I feel like I’m probably going down a more bio biography book rather than, but more of an educational one, rather. It’s not like this is my entire life on a plate, but more about the things that I’ve experienced personally, that can inform a business lens.
I’m closer. I can feel and touch it better now than I could maybe 18 months ago, but I still need, I, I still need a couple of things to come and go before I can finally commit to paper.
Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah. That’s interesting. ’cause you can, I think with writing and books specifically, because it’s such a long process or can be a long process, you really need to have that.
I, I personally feel you need to have that spark to drive you through that process.
Dija Ayodele: Yeah.
Le’Nise Brothers: And if it feels a bit half-baked, it’s almost like it just doesn’t connect in your mind and you will always find other things to do instead.
Dija Ayodele: Yeah. Yeah.
Le’Nise Brothers: I’m in in that place right now as well. Yeah.
Dija Ayodele: So it comes together eventually.
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It comes together. Exactly. And you feel like you’re moving closer and closer, like, you know, when you, you also know the things you’d never do. Like you don’t know, you don’t know the things you’re going to do, but you know the things you’re not going to do. Like, I’m not going to write you a skincare book.
I know that for sure. You know, I am never, I’m not going to write you a beauty book. Am I going to write you a book that has some of those elements were probably probably more business focused, probably. I know I’m going in that direction, but am I going to write you a book about how to wash your face? No. Like what cleanser to use?
No, I know I’m not going to do those things.
Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah.
Dija Ayodele: But it’s about then edging closer. It’s about eliminating all of the things you know you don’t want to do that gets you closer to the thing that really you want to write about. And I, I think that I’m through going through that process at the moment and there’s some things where I’m like, yeah, that’s a definite story.
Especially like, ’cause now I’m building tech. Um, and I feel like there’s a lot of. Things within that that I’m like, yeah, this is a definite overcomer kind of story to tell. Okay. But when I, when I say that I need to go through a few more experiences first, like I, like I’m in, I’m in, I’m ascending in the arch, and I need to come down on the other side of the arch and, and full circle that experience to then write about it.
Le’Nise Brothers: Mm-hmm.
Dija Ayodele: Um, ’cause if I wrote about it now, I wouldn’t have an ending to give you. Right. ’cause I’m in the middle of the arch. Yeah. So I have to get to the other side how, and it doesn’t matter what that other side looks like, but I, I need to get to the point where I’m like, okay, I’ve. I’ve landed.
Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah.
Dija Ayodele: Now I can tell you about the experience of what happened and we can write about it and you can learn about it and all that sort of stuff.
Yeah. Right. Yeah.
Le’Nise Brothers: So the business side, there’s two questions I want to ask you there. Firstly, you, you’ve started coaching other skincare professionals.
Dija Ayodele: Yeah.
Le’Nise Brothers: Which I, I think is really interesting when people, they gain a lot of experience in a certain field and then they get to a place where they say, okay, I want to help other people in this field.
And you said, which I really loved, is you said, you, we all have the potential to win. Yeah. So talk a little bit more about the coaching work you’re doing.
Dija Ayodele: Yeah, so coaching is, I’ve always mentored. I, so I’ve always mentored a, just a handful of people. I think, about three people I’ve mentored and I’ve mentored them since from the very start of their, I love mentoring people from the start of their journey rather than halfway through, from when they were students.
Right up until them developing their in clinics and they’re in practices and all that sort of stuff. But I’ve just never had enough time or capacity to take other people on. And again, it’s that thing about being in the middle of the arch. I. Can’t help you if I haven’t landed on the other side and cleared through the fog, like, you know, so, and now that I have, especially ’cause obviously I closed down my clinic to concentrate and build more time to be at home.
Especially on the weekends, if you won’t own a clinic, you will know that you work anti-social hours. Because everybody else, like people are going to come in on a Saturday, which means if you’ve got kids, you’re missing the football matches, you’re missing everything because you have to be in clinic. And there’s only so long you can do that for, I think.
So I, I built in more time into my life because also I knew that we were building tech and, and I knew that that would take a lot of time. But in the building of tech, I think. Tech can be quite slow, slower than I thought it was, than, than it would be in many ways. So I found that I had time, and I thought, well.
Whilst, whilst we’re waiting on Clicked, which is the app that we’re building to kind of get out into the world, I have got time and I can manage my time now better to coach. I know that I don’t want to be back in a clinic setting per se, but I, there’s a ton of experience I could share with other people.
That’s basically what I’ve done and that’s very rewarding, again because I’m working with people right at the start of their journey. So I’ve got a couple of clients. I’m, I’m already like, I, I think I’ve got like maybe one or two more spaces, but I’m working with people all around the world.
I’ve got someone I’m working with in, in America who literally is like, I’m literally starting out and I want someone who’s done the whole journey to be by my side. Um, and that’s amazing. And to see their excitement as they’re finding out, you know, I’m like, every, every week there’s homework, right?
You need to go and research this. You need to go and research that, and let’s talk about it, and blah, blah, blah. And to see their excitement. I think the last conversation I had with one of my ladies on the coaching program, she was really struggling with clarity of who her customer would be.
And I sent her a video to watch and she came back. She goes, I wish I’d watched this sooner. Like literally this, this has just really solidified who I want to be. So for me, that’s something like quite basic. But for her it was like change changed her mindset. And I love seeing that excitement. So for me, that’s always going to be the thing.
Your excitement and you winning is like, I want all of us to win. I firmly believe that if somebody has done something before, it means it is possible to do for the next person. And if I have done X, Y, Z. I firmly believe that you can do the same. You don’t have to do it the way I did it, because there was some potholes involved.
So you don’t have to do it the same way. You can actually skip over those things because I’m coaching you, right? You’re going to skip over those potholes. But I firmly believe you can win as well. That’s always my thing. I want you to win. I want to see us all be successful in the things we want to do.
And that is the thing, like if I’m ever having a bad day or a shitty day, like I’ve not had the greatest of weeks and yesterday, I think was quite a sort of down day for me. But I went out to a friend of mine who has, who has a skincare brand, and she did a documentary about it. She went back to her home country in Congo and she did a documentary about her raw materials and her raw ingredients.
And yesterday was the opening night and she’d asked if I could come along and do a Q host, a Q&A for her, uh, and for the audience. Just even though I was having like, not the greatest of days, but it was amazing to go and still do that and watch her win because that was a massive win for her and watch her win.
And you know, I went, I did it. I watched the film, I did the Q&A. Five minutes later I was out. I was on my way home. But it was just a really uplifting feeling when. You see other people win, and even if you just played a tiny part in that, again, another full circle story for me, when she was setting up her brand, I was there.
I listened to all the problems, the packaging problems, the one weekend where she had to go into the factory and sort out all the packaging herself and, you know, I, I was there. I listened to it. So to then watch her close the arch with that film last night, no matter how shitty I was feeling, I felt good for her.
Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah.
Dija Ayodele: And that kind of rubbed off on me as well. So yeah, I won all of it. It’s my mantra. We can all win.
Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah. I love that because I think people looking from the business owners from the outside assume that there’s this innate competitiveness and this kind of, it’s like a dog, you know that Wall Street model?
Dija Ayodele: Yeah.
Le’Nise Brothers: Where dog eat dog, lunch is for wimps sort of model, where it doesn’t really have to be that way at all, you know? Everyone has the potential to win. I love that. And yeah, we can celebrate the wins of others without it having any impact on ourselves.
Dija Ayodele: For sure. Absolutely. I think that, but also because I am human and I will say this ’cause it’s funny you, you just mentioned something actually wrote in my Substack, which has not been published yet, probably go out today, about the fact that I watch my competition closely. I think I’d be a fool not to, uh, especially like within the tech space, I watch my competition. Um, and I’m only human, so I always admit this. Yeah. There are days where I’m like, oh my God, they’re, they’re going to, they’re going to eat us alive, because they have more money than.
And just last night I was writing in my Substack that one of our competitors clearly has had an influx of investment because they are all over the place at the moment. Everywhere I turn, I see them and they’re advertising. Yesterday on my way home I was at London Bridge coming up from the northern line to go up to the main ticket hall.
And you know, as you come up the escalator, you’ve got that whole bank of video adverts. It was them. I was just like, these people are everywhere. And of course I was like, you know, one side of me is like, oh my God, they’re going to crush us because it’s human. And like I, and at the same time I’m like, I want to crush them, um, because I’m competitive like that.
Um, but at the same time, I also hold the other feeling like they can’t ever do what I’m doing. And I know that we have a very special edge, and I keep saying that Dija just, you keep reminding yourself about it. You just keep telling yourself that, but it’s still human enough to, and I think I, I wouldn’t be human if I didn’t admit that, do I?
It is not a traditional green eye jealousy. It’s more like. It’s more like a covetness. Oh, I wish I had that. And all I say is I wish I had access to their funds. That’s all. I, I don’t wish to have what they have. I just wish to have the resources they have. It wouldn’t be human to not say you don’t feel those competitive vibes.
But at the same time, you can also hold the feel, feeling that they can win and I can win, like, you know, that, that’s also valid.
Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah, but also it is worth remembering that there are lots of case studies of startups that had felt like they had infinite pots of money.
Dija Ayodele: Mm-hmm.
Le’Nise Brothers: And they’re just, you know, resigned to the dustbin because they
Dija Ayodele: Absolutely.
Good point. Yeah.
Le’Nise Brothers: They weren’t smart with their money at all.
Dija Ayodele: Good point. Good point. Yeah, no, I think you are absolutely, absolutely right. And those are the things, and that’s what that I, that I think about and, and I surround myself with people who have those alternative views for the blind spots that I can’t see because when I pop into my slack messages for my team that, oh my God, guys, like literally I couldn’t escape them today. And they will say things like you’ve just said. So again, it’s about that surrounding yourself with people who can ground you when you’re going off on a spiral, because you know, I, you are only human and if you’re having a bad day, it’s very easy to then spiral out of control because you know, your, your day is now running, it’s now run away from you again, that’s human and you have to try to be very hard and disciplined to come back to the focus.
Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah. So we’ve been kind of circling around your, your new, your new business. But you, can you tell us what you’re in the process of building?
Dija Ayodele: So we are in the process of building an AI powered skincare diagnostic app that will not only simplify your routine and make skincare make sense for you as you wade through this billion dollar landscape, but it’ll also boost your confidence and give you back control.
We find that people are purchasing products they won’t use, can’t use, don’t know how to use, they are literally losing control, not only of their skincare, their skin, and their wallets. They’re losing control of everything. And what Clicked will do is that it will help you bring a focus back, not only will you understand your skin, understand your skincare concerns, understand what products to use, understand how to use those products in a routine, but it will also be an emotional, it will also provide emotional guidance for you, for you to understand why your skin behaves the way it behaves. And to give you back that control, that gives you back your confidence as well.
Le’Nise Brothers: Wow. That’s amazing. I need that.
Dija Ayodele: After so many years in the industry, I was like, yeah, I could. It’s all linked. It’s all linked.
Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah. Yeah. What do you say to people who say, well, that this all sounds really great, but with something like skin and beauty, that we do need a human element.
What do you say to people that would say something like that?
Dija Ayodele: Absolutely. I think, of course a human element is a very, very important, and I think that my answer to that is there are people at the moment who are priced out. Priced out in terms of money priced out in terms of accessibility to just basic information.
Now, this is something I consider basic information, that there are elements of it that you don’t need a human necessarily. Especially because like on our part I’ve trained it. So when I talk about one of the things that I know that. Other, other apps don’t have that we have is the fact that it’s me that’s training the app.
It’s, it the learning machine. It’s not, it’s not data that we are pulling from somewhere else. It’s me sat here doing it. So you can be rest assured that at the back of all that tech. It’s me, and people on my team. But these, this is some of it is basic information that, you know, you don’t need a human.
And because it’s always been the case that you need to go and see someone for it. If you are, for example, living, I don’t know, Isle of Skye or whatever it’s going to be, it might be difficult for you, it might be expensive for you. And this cuts all of that out and gives us all access to that basic need.
Fundamentally at some point, um, in the lifecycle and roadmap of, of the app, there will be the option to see somebody, whether it be through telehealth or teledermatology, but that you, you know, those two words, telehealth, teledermatology their whole businesses in themselves.
Le’Nise Brothers: Mm.
Dija Ayodele: It it’s not just that, I’ll just tack it on to, to, to the app.
They are whole business unit in themselves to build and to support. But again, even if you had that, if you are unable to pay for it, yeah, it might be another human at the end, but if you can’t afford it, you can’t afford it. So what do you do in the meantime? And when we look at. Where the world is at the moment, the cost of living crisis and all of those sorts of stuff.
I mean, we all sat here like sitting ducks waiting for the 26th, right? Because what we are going to have a budget and who knows what’s going to happen, you know? And there, there are so many people who get priced outta things. And this is where I believe tech and AI can be used for good. I’m not saying that they’re not people or dark forces, but this is the way I feel like.
For me, this is doing something good. This is ensuring that we can all access things. And there’s other ways in which, for us personally, which I, I won’t go into because that will be part of our marketing, but, there’s other ways in which we’ll bring the human element into it and get people to see face-to-face and all that.
You know, a combination of IRL and online is, is the way forward. So that will always exist. But fundamentally, our core business is to ensure people have access. And AI gives us that.
Le’Nise Brothers: I love that. That’s amazing. It is technology for good, techno democratising.
Dija Ayodele: Yeah.
Le’Nise Brothers: Skincare, beauty, and I think just think coming at this from a health perspective, so thinking about the, the work that I do when you people think about wellness now, and I, I know this applies to skincare and beauty as well, there’s always this thought, oh I have to spend a lot of money because you know, you have people like Gwyneth Paltrow and and all of that.
Dija Ayodele: Yeah.
Le’Nise Brothers: But it’s really. It really doesn’t have to be that way. And I love the fact that you’re thinking about it. Well, how can everyone access this? You know? It doesn’t matter how much money you have. That’s really, really interesting. What’s the one thought you’d like to leave listeners with today?
Dija Ayodele: I think the one thing I’m always reminding myself of is that no matter what I’m doing, so now in this case, no matter what you are doing as a listener, whatever your dreams are, you got your heart set on you. You can only do it your way. There’s going to be many ways of doing it, and every day I am reminded that you can only do it your way.
So when I sit and think about. Like I say, issues that have happened this week and I’m just like, okay, well I could try and make this square fit into this round hole or I can do it my way and you know, and my way might not be the way that all these like investors and people who are in the know are.
That’s not how they would do it, but these are the options I have and these are the cards I have to play, so I can only do it my way. So I think that’s what I’d say to people that we sometimes get so caught up in waiting for other people to approve, like what we’re doing or co-sign what we are doing.
And we, we end up wasting a lot of time like that. And you only know you’ve wasted a lot of time after the fact, because I can sit and tell you about a couple of things where I’m just like, well, I wish I’d just moved on. Um, but I was so busy waiting for someone to say yes to me that I, I lost track.
So each time I do things my way and because you’re doing things in a way that’s authentic to you, you will never fail. And even if you don’t get the results that you were expecting or wanted, you’re still going to get the results that you need, that were needed, whether the result is you shouldn’t do this, that’s, that’s what you needed to hear.
Or whether the result is, yeah, you can move on from this now because you’ve achieved this bit and you can move to the next stage. That’s because that’s what you need to hear. So I think it’s that memory and, and core, core self-belief, that you can do things your way, and you will still be able to succeed.
Le’Nise Brothers: Very wise words. Oh, thank you. Very wise words.
Dija Ayodele: What would be yours though? What would you, I know obviously you do the podcast all the time.
Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah.
Dija Ayodele: You know, what’s, what do you, what would you be your kind of like, one thing that you are like, I always want people to remember this.
Le’Nise Brothers: You only have one body. Mm-hmm. And you have to take care of your health and you don’t have to accept feeling tired. Like I just wrote a substack about this yesterday. So people always say, why am I always tired? And there’s this been this acceptance that we’re just always supposed to feel tired and no, we’re not always supposed to feel tired. We are not supposed to have painful periods. We’re not supposed to have really terrible experiences of our period or ovulation.
What I would say to people is that you only have one body. Your health is really important. You shouldn’t accept feeling suboptimal.
Dija Ayodele: Yeah.
Le’Nise Brothers: And it’s not ableist to say that, whatever your body is like, there’s always a way for you to feel a little bit better.
Dija Ayodele: Yeah. Yeah. Whatever body you possess. Yeah, absolutely. You need to know what your good is, your good feeling is, and you need to know when you’re not feeling so great. I mean, I, I push and burn the candles at both ends. I’m known for in bed at, I don’t know, midnight, up at five. I’m known for that, but then I would say there’s always times where it’d be eight o’clock and I’ve gone to sleep.
Like literally, I, I will just be like, today I’m not feeling it. And, and I, I know when. Those times comes, comes up. I just need to listen to my body and be like, right, eight o’clock I’ve crashed out. See y’all on the other side. Literally, I’ll be like, I see y’all at six. So yeah, so you, you just have to know that, and I think your body starts telling you these things where, like if I’m supposed to wake up at five and all of a sudden it’s like I’m waking up at 5:30.
It’s like my body’s tired and it’s telling me it’s tired and it’s not able to naturally wake up at five o’clock anymore because it’s depleted.
Le’Nise Brothers: Hmm.
Yeah. Especially at this time of year where it is darker and you know, we just don’t have that light that we respond to. Yeah, we do tend to wake up a little bit, a little bit later, so Yeah.
Dija Ayodele: Unless you’re pushing through.
Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So that’s interesting. No one’s ever asked me that before, so thank you. Thank you.
Dija Ayodele: It’s always good to turn the microphone back.
I always think it’s a good idea to turn the microphone back and, and yeah, get, get your opinion too.
Le’Nise Brothers: Mm-hmm. Well, thank you. So where can people find you if they want to read your substack, if they want to find out about coaching, find your book.
Dija Ayodele: Sure. So my website, dijaayodele.com, it’s my home planet. You can find that all the information about coaching from skin for skincare professionals.
Also if you wanted to have online skin consultations all via my website, my book, everything is there. On Instagram, I’m @dijaayodele, as simple as that. My substack is Always With Sprinkles, the story behind that is I am always that girl that’s going to give you a little bit extra.
So Always With Sprinkles it’s going to sprinkle a little bit extra on top. So it is, but you can also find it via my name, I believe. But yeah, it’s actually called Always with Sprinkles. And that’s literally the places you can find me at.
Le’Nise Brothers: Great. And all the links will be in the show, in the show notes.
Dija Ayodele: Amazing. Thank you for that. Yeah. I’m also on threads actually, but like by my name as well. Threads is where I go to do the most random conversation, like, let’s talk about leaks actually. Well, you know, I, I think that’s an interesting topic, but yeah. Um, I love threads. I just think it’s this way.
I kind of go to like de-stress sometimes, and my algorithm is so good on threads like. It’s all laughter, it’s all good stuff in life. And I really try hard just to protect that algorithm, because again, it’s where I just come to destress.
Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah. Yeah. And we, we all need that in life.
Dija Ayodele: Yeah, for sure.
Absolutely.
Le’Nise Brothers: Well, thank you so much for coming onto the show today. It’s been fantastic speaking to you.
Dija Ayodele: Thank you for having me. I think this has been like, so great. It’s, it’s just like chat I needed, we, we all should have had coffee as well, actually. Yeah. that would’ve just rounded it up, but I feel like it was the chat I needed today, so thank you.