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Period Story · July 2, 2026

Period Story Podcast, Episode 116, Dr Sula Windgassen: It’s All In Your Body

On this episode of Period Story, I speak to Dr Sula Windgassen, the health psychologist and author of the book It’s All In Your Body.

In this episode, Dr Sula shares:

Why getting told the issues you’re experiencing are ‘all in your head’ inhibits healing and fosters a message of distrust, isolation and disconnection
Why categorising psychology as woo woo can preclude so many people that could directly benefit from working with themselves in a slightly different way
How our psychology and biology can impact each other though psychobiological loops and change multiple systems in our body
Why it’s important to accept our feelings and experience them in our window of tolerance
The impact suppressing emotions has on the physical body
What symptom spirals are and how to interrupt them
And of course, the story of her first period

Dr Sula says that she wrote her book for people who feel unseen and dismissed in their suffering to know there are options and it’s not all in your head.

Thank you, Dr Sula!

Get in touch with Dr Sula:

Her book: It’s All In Your Body

Her website

Her Instagram

Her community

Her podcast: https://www.howwereallyfeel.com

Her YouTube

Dr Sula’s Bio:

Dr Sula Windgassen is one of the UK’s leading health psychologists, a published author of ‘It’s All In Your Body’, researcher, founder of Body Mind Connect and founder and supervisor of Mind Body Blossom Clinic.

Whilst she is a psychologist, researcher and author, she has also been a patient and her motivation to change the lives of others started there.

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SHOW TRANSCRIPT

Le’Nise Brothers: Hi, Sula. Thank you so much for coming onto the show today. Let’s start by me asking you the question I ask all of my guests, which is tell us the story of your first period.

Dr Sula Windgassen: Yeah, my first period was, I think I was 10 years old. And I still remember I was in my dad’s en suite toilet and it came and I think I knew exactly what it was and what was happening, and I think I’d been preempted that it was going to happen because I’d heard stories from my mum that she’d started her period really, really young, like aged eight or nine.

So I think I was, I was aware that I would probably have it young and also age 10, I had grown breasts and pubic hair and armpit hair and all of that kind of stuff. So it wasn’t so much of a surprise, but I do remember, um, feeling like a, a, a pride of like, oh, you know, now I’m grown up, which obviously is quite funny, age 10.

Le’Nise Brothers: And once you got it, did you speak to anyone about, uh, what happened?

Dr Sula Windgassen: Yeah, I was lucky because I think there must have been like casual conversation in the background. Me and my dad had a very good relationship and my mum and dad were, um, divorced. So I was at his house when it happened and I just called him and he I can’t remember exactly what he did, but he was just like, oh, wonderful.

Le’Nise Brothers: If you think about it, like thinking back now, 10, as you say is, is quite young. And even though, you know, when you’re that age, you think, oh wow. I’m like, I’m a big girl now. I’m so grown up. It’s a lot, you know, these big changes. What was your experience of your period like and how did you tackle it at school and what with your friends?

Dr Sula Windgassen: It’s interesting because I always felt quite different at school for lots of different reasons. You know, I was probably the only Indian kid in my school. I seemed to be the only only child in my school. There might have been other kids with divorced parents, but like, it wasn’t that common. And so I always felt a bit different anyway, and I had quite an active imagination, so I’d be quite happy, like playing games on my own, in my own mind.

This was just like another thing that I think set in my mind oh you are different. And then obviously developing externally, you know, obviously that being accelerated compared to the other girls that were just like straight up and straight down.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah.

Dr Sula Windgassen: So I don’t think I really shared it with anybody. I don’t feel like I had safe relationships in school to really talk about that kind of thing. In my primary school, I, I, I don’t think I ever really had that many friendships that felt like you could discuss that kind of thing. And I was already aware of like having my differences pointed out, like boys pointing at my breast or like, you know, grimacing at seeing armpit hair, realising I had leg hair and trying to shave it and things like that. So it wasn’t something that I spoke about in primary school, but interestingly in secondary school.

It, it wasn’t something that I felt like I had to hide and it felt, it felt like I could be a bit prouder of it.

Le’Nise Brothers: What was the difference? Was it getting older? Was it a different environment?

Dr Sula Windgassen: Both, I think, I think it was the different environment and having a closer group of friends in secondary school eventually.

And being older. And so like, then it becomes the advantage of like, oh, you are more experienced. You’ve been doing this for a long time. Versus yeah not knowing what’s, what’s coming. So there was benefits to it as well as difficulties, I’d say.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah. And what was your experience of your period like?

Was it easy? Was it painful? Was it heavy?

Dr Sula Windgassen: I don’t remember it ever feeling physically uncomfortable.

Le’Nise Brothers: Mm-hmm.

Dr Sula Windgassen: In fact, it’s only in recent years where I feel like my period has changed and feels a bit more dramatic. And I think as you know, my body’s changing and hormones are changing and things like that.

But certainly when I was younger I don’t remember it feeling that uncomfortable. And I do think because I’d had some kind of socialisation to what periods are and that you might feel a bit tender, and my dad, especially was very good at being like so he’s Dutch and there’s a phrase that’s translated from Dutch of Are you sickening for something?

Which is like, I mean, the way that I interpret it and, and the way that he applied it was is your body asking you for something because you’re kind of unwell? And so I think that’s such, such such a lovely phrase ’cause it’s like, oh yeah, my body’s telling me something. And I think that really helped when it came to my period of like, oh yeah, you know, the sugar cravings or whatever.

Le’Nise Brothers: was it a kind of him almost teaching you to tune into your body from a young age?

Dr Sula Windgassen: I think so. Yeah. I do. It vividly stands out and so, and as I’ve been exploring this concept of interceptive awareness more explicitly recently, those kinds of memories come back to me. So I think it was quite formative.

Le’Nise Brothers: Talking about interceptive awareness and tuning into your body, in your book, you talk a lot about your health and the issues that you were experiencing. Did your dad talking about, it’s just sickening.

Dr Sula Windgassen: Yeah.

Le’Nise Brothers: What is your body sickening for? Did that help you in your health journey?

You talk about it quite extensively in your book. Did that kind of early awareness help you at all?

Dr Sula Windgassen: At the beginning, probably not so much. Because I was just so threatened by the symptoms and, and overwhelmed. And I think my brain was just going into catastrophe mood. And yeah, my body was horrified at the physical experiences.

So it was harder to, to have that more curious, gentle, calm approach around it. But at the point at which, as I think of it, I’d hit rock bottom in terms of being completely shut down, deactivated, feeling hopeless, and not really getting anywhere physically in the medical system or otherwise.

That was the point that my dad was then suggesting the same thing in a different way, right? He, he said, why don’t we try this mindfulness practice? Because he was doing a master’s in mindfulness and essentially that’s what mindfulness is to build that interceptive awareness. So it he reintroduced it at that point, and I think the foundation then of, oh, what is your body telling you helped me perhaps meditate from that more observational perspective strand position then is necessarily that easy to do when you first start.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah. And it’s really interesting this mindfulness and tuning into what your body is telling you, because certainly I see this in my practice. A lot of the women I work with get told that issues that they’re experiencing are all in their head.

And in your book you’ve written that you think that this is a harmful message and that it, it inhibits healing and it fosters a message of distrust, isolation, and disconnection. Can you just say a little bit more about that?

Dr Sula Windgassen: Yeah. It’s such a pervasive message. Especially for women.

Interestingly, I was just with my colleagues at Kings, we are doing some research to explore the impact of being dismissed when you’re experiencing physical issues. And one of the hypotheses we’re testing is what I put forward in my book, which is, does this negatively impact your ability to listen to your body?

Does it negatively impact also how your body responds to your own symptoms and stress and increase inflammation and things like that. So we’re, we’re early-ish on in the journey, but I’m expecting that we’ll get data that really supports that. But the premise that I set out in, in my book is if you think about how threatening it is to have a very real physical experience, that in itself is very difficult, very alarming, disruptive.

That’s its own threat. But then if you have that experience and you are trying to elicit some support to improve it, and you’re received as though you are not really having that experience, not only does that then shut down the possibility of I can be helped, which is traumatising ’cause that is a very trapping experience.

That’s the theme that comes up time and time again as well when I’m working with people, I feel trapped. I feel powerless. So that opportunity’s been shut down. But also there’s this potential reduction in trust in what is my experience then? Like, I think I am feeling this, but especially if it’s repeated messages in lots of different ways, telling you, no, it can’t be that bad, or it’s not what you think, or it’s normal.

It really erodes this sense of, oh, I can’t trust what I’m feeling and where do you go from there? And in, in the book, I have this diagram about a process called multisensory integration, which is essentially how our brain pulls in all of these signals, all of these kind of bodily signals from hunger, thirst, nerve signalling, brain activations, et cetera.

And it combines it with our past memories, our present context, our social situations. And then it pulls all of that data together to, to give us a reading on what the reality is. You can see just how disrupted that is going to be, that equation and that calculation, if it just keeps not marrying up that internal experience with what you’re getting externally.

And so like on, on a physiological level your brain can then get very confused. On one hand it’s like, well, you’re not feeling, you’re not feeling what you think you’re feeling, but also I’m scared about that. And so then, you know, another bodily system responds in that way and then you get some other kind of symptoms and then you’re told whatever, whatever, you know.

So it just builds and builds and builds. So there’s my sense and I present a lot of research in the book is it causes so much physiological disruption to be told it’s all in your head. It’s not real. And I don’t think people really realise the extent to which it does.

Le’Nise Brothers: I think that’s fascinating and I think that really, for anyone listening who has experienced that, what you have said will really resonate.

And I wonder, given that the medical system is quite paternal and we do give a lot of weight to what GPs say, so doctors, they go to medical school for many years. And so there is this, it’s changing now, but there has still this overwhelming ethos of what I say goes, I’ve gone to medical school, don’t confuse my medical degree with your Google search.

You know, all of these things that we’ve heard. And so when you are, you know, you’ve mentioned that framework before, is there more weight that’s given to words from a doctor because of their place in society?

Dr Sula Windgassen: Absolutely. And the research reflects that as well. Even if part of you explicitly is like, I don’t agree, there’s the more background, contextual implicit cues that your brain has got just by virtue of the position and as you say, the medical training and the power inequality in, in that.

So again, it causes more internal conflict because part of me is like, well that doesn’t seem right. Uh, and it definitely doesn’t marry up with what’s going on for, for me, whilst other brain processes, you know, have been trained to accept what they’re saying. And definitely that’s something that I see play out time and time again in my sessions where there’s been such an erosion of self-trust and such uncertainty and doubt and, you know, all of the things that come from that.

And if it’s relevant in our sessions, we’ll try and understand where the brain’s got quote unquote stuck. Like, what is, what is causing so much mistrust? And often it does go back to these experiences where even though explicitly, they’ve dismissed it and they’ve said, that was a terrible doctor, that wasn’t helpful for me.

But the part of the brain still remains stuck on, but that doctor said, you’re not going to get better, or that doctor said whatever they will have said. And so we doing a bit of processing. I use a therapy called EMDR, so eye movement desensitisation reprocessing to, to help the brain kind of elicit all of that and all of the conflicted emotions around that.

And a lot of the time it is just you are feeling so vulnerable in that moment and so unsure and they’re presenting as so certain and yeah, so full of authority.

Le’Nise Brothers: I wanted to ask you about EMDR because it has been in the news a few times recently. You know, we have Prince Harry who’s talked about how it’s been really helpful for him in processing certain experiences and events that he’s gone through.

And despite the research showing that it is beneficial, it’s still being labelled as woo woo. I’m sure you’ve heard this, so, you know, working in mindfulness, talking about mind body connection, this phrase, woo woo, how do you combat that? Like, what is your response to that term?

Dr Sula Windgassen: It’s so hard, isn’t it? It it, it’s one of the reasons that I wrote this book because I think that categorisation of this realm of science as woowoo precludes so many people that could directly benefit from working with themselves in a slightly different way. I also think that categorisation of this realm of stuff being woo woo perpetuates stigma because the reality is our mind and bodies interconnected, and we can objectively see that in, in all sorts of studies.

Psycho neuroimmunology, neuroscience, you know, we’ve got all of these fields that show us what happens in our internal psychological experience translates. Uh, and it’s not always in one particular way. And of course it’s individual differences, but it does translate. And we have to be interested in how that translates for us.

The question of like, how do you combat that? I think it is about trying to break down some of these concepts as tangibly as possible and explaining the science a little bit in a way that, that makes sense to people. So for example, in the book I talk about stress and I break down how we conceptualise stress automatically and how that then can make us feel like when we’re talking about stress manifesting in the body, might, why that might make it feel more woo woo when in actual fact if we break down what stress is.

So three things and three quite different things. One being the external stress stressors, you know, a deadline, um, an irritable boss you know, a child having difficulty. The stressors can also be internal. So like when you’re experiencing symptoms, we don’t have like a, a huge degree of control over our stressors.

Some degree may be for some, but not all. When you get told to manage your stress or doctors say, oh, you know, this is stress. You can see how that automatically lands as dismissing because you wouldn’t elect to have these stressors. So, it’s, it seems like a non-sequitur. But then if we break down the other two elements of stress, so stressors, things that are stressing us out, stress, our stress response, which can be further broken down into our psychological experience.

So I’m feeling stressed and our physiological experience, which is our bodies responding to activate to demands. And it can do that in lots of different ways. It’s not always an elevation. Sometimes it’s like a depression of things, of like, wait, let’s see what happens. Um, and the psychological and physical doesn’t always marry up.

So we can be getting that stress response acutely without necessarily feeling psychologically stressed. In fact, most of us, I would say live 90% of our lives without stress response and we’re not really relating to as though we’re really stressed, which is good in lots of ways. And again, it’s not necessarily something that we can intervene on or would always want to intervene on because it’s just natural to what’s happening.

You know, if there is a, you know, a sudden stressor your child runs out into the road, we want that natural automatic response. We don’t want to have to like add in a filter necessarily. But then the last bit is our stress kind of reactions. So how we then are responding to the stress that we’re experiencing, whether we’re even noticing it, you know, we’ll have a big determination on that. And then whether we’re engaging in things that are approaching the stressor, like I can see this is difficult for me.

Let me see what I can do, whether we’re avoiding it, whether we’re approaching it, but putting too much pressure on ourselves. That’s the bit that we might be able to intervene on. But of course, it’s impacted by the first two layers, so we can’t, we’re not always fully able to have control over that, but we can at least exert the degree of control that we have.

And I think when people understand the second stress that I mentioned, the physiological stress and how that can be quantified in the body, like we see cortisol level changes. We see it changing in lots of different ways. It’s not always an elevation, that might be more acutely, but with chronic stress, it’s often like a depression, of course.

So, so we don’t have the resources that we need to activate because we’ve been stressed for too long. We can see our heart rate go up, we can see our heart rate variability go down. We can see all of these physical changes in the body. We know that inflammation changes. So I think when you get really familiar with this is a thing for everyone, not just me then we can feel more motivated to work with.

Okay. So if that is a physical thing, then there are opportunities for me to intervene. Just like, being sedentary. We know that’s not great for health. And so we can adjust our behaviour maybe to, to shift that. It’s the same with, with this stress process, but there’s just more variation.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah.

And what you’ve shared there is, getting to the heart of what your, your book, so your first book, It’s All In Your Body, was released earlier this year. So firstly, congratulations.

Dr Sula Windgassen: Thanks.

Le’Nise Brothers: It’s amazing. An amazing thing to have a book out in the world. And we talked a few weeks ago about how it’s just the first part of a, you know, a, a long journey.

So it’s a practical roadmap to healing through mind body connection. So we’ve just started to explore the idea of mind body connection and how everything is interlinked in the body. For someone who has a physical condition. So I’ll bring up endometriosis because that’s how we first connected, where there are a lot of physical manifestations that someone can experience, primarily pain.

Dr Sula Windgassen: Mm-hmm.

Le’Nise Brothers: How would the mind body connection work for someone with endometriosis?

Dr Sula Windgassen: So this relates to something that I talk about in the book, and I try and break down in different ways, which is what I call psychobiological loops, which is this interplay between our psychology and our biology. And it can be any direction, right?

So like, there might be a biological shift that impacts our psychological experience, which then impacts our biology. And so it goes round. And it can be the other way round as well. For example, when we were talking about stress, we might experience something psychologically stressful and then that shifts our biology, and so it goes round.

But like all of these avenues for psychology and biology impacting each other often overlap and then change like multiple systems in our body. So if we take endometriosis, there’s pain in endometriosis often because of the nature of endometriosis, the physiological, um, lesions and inflammation that’s there, and that can be dependent on like the type of endo, the degree of endo, et cetera. But what we also know from the research is it’s not just related to the type and degree of endometriosis. There are people with like deep infiltrating endometriosis that don’t have so much pain. So there are other reasons.

There are other factors that influence pain and, we can work with those other factors to potentially influence the physical outcomes. What I always want to make clear, especially when I’m talking about these kind of conditions where we can, see tissue changes and we can see the structural element of them, my position is not, you can change everything through the power of your mind and emotions and what have you, but just that often it’s an untapped part of the equation that can have a, a significant influence.

So if we take someone with, if we take two example case studies of people with endometriosis, one person has, let’s say they’ve got exactly the same kind of, um, endometriosis, but one person has had lots of medical trauma being dismissed by doctors, didn’t get a diagnosis for nine years, now has to battle to go back to her GP and they often are precluding her from the particular meds that she needs.

Partners not so supportive and rolls her eyes whenever she’s like, I don’t think I can go into work today. And, work are just about flexible enough, but they’re, um, often kind of adding on the pressure to her. And we make a contrast to somebody with the same endometriosis, but they went to the healthcare system and actually were listened to, got put on a diagnostic pathway, maybe it took two years instead of nine years. They’ve got good access to their GP. Their GP listens to them, they feel included in medication decisions. Their partner asks ’em what they need when they’re going through a flare et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

You know, work doesn’t put any pressure on them, lets them work from home. We can see that psychological experience from the social experience makes a massive difference. The two elements, like how we feel socially and how we feel emotionally, again, physiologically manifest in what’s happening in the body.

So the more socially rejected or the more we feel at risk of social hostility, we know that changes what happens in our body. We know that changes how our brain’s processing. We know that changes, um, potential inflammatory markers, all that sort of stuff. Both of those things interact with the experience of endometriosis, right?

So if our brain’s more activated in the regions that process pain as well as threat, that’s more likely to then upregulate, um, messages that we are getting from nerve signals. Um, which can then also change how the nerves are working in the particular regions, if we’re if we’ve got change neurochemistry and hormones because we’re feeling threatened and stress that’s going to impact on that systemic inflammation.

So like that person who’s feeling isolated and dismissed is going to be much more symptomatic, most likely because of all of those added elements. Whereas the person that feels supported, that feels in control is much more likely to have at least feel more in control, but have a better symptom experience and, and not feel so threatened by symptom fluctuations.

It doesn’t mean that they won’t have any symptom fluctuations or any symptoms, but the broader experience of that and the degree in severity is likely to be massively impacted. So this is true for somebody with endometriosis. This would be true for someone with multiple sclerosis. This would be true for someone with I irritable bowel syndrome because for all of us there, there is that interplay on multiple different levels.

And what I try to do in the book is kind of help people identify what different psychobiological loops they might be experiencing, when they’re on their own, when they’re in company, and how that might then impact and interact with their own physiology.

Le’Nise Brothers: And just to kind of add on to this topic, in chapter six of the book, you ask, are you thinking yourself better or are you thinking yourself sick?

And I found that really interesting because some people might think that’s a bit victim blamey, but other people might find that quite empowering. Can you just say a little bit more about what you mean by that?

Dr Sula Windgassen: It’s interesting actually because I wrote that sentence as in, that’s the fear that people often have rather than, that’s the question that I’m asking because when we’re talking about the role of thoughts, like you say, some people can be like, oh, if my thoughts have an impact, then I can work with that and, you know, make things better.

But I work with far more people that are horrified of hearing about the role of thoughts in illness because they’re like, well, I can’t control all of my thoughts and therefore I’m making my own symptoms worse, et cetera, et cetera. So I wanted to kind of label that thought process in and of itself as like, that’s not it’s not about mind over matter.

And I think I talk about that quite explicitly in that chapter. It’s, it’s not mind over matter. It’s not that our thoughts are the most powerful thing. And we need to, you know, have purity of thought and always be controlling them. But there are, when we do recognise the role that not just our thinking in terms of the content of our thoughts, but the way that we’re cognitively processing has a role in our experience, then we can work with our internal world in that way to make it feel more threatening and also take some of the power out of it.

So one of the areas that I discuss in that is, this is intrusive thoughts happens for people with OCD, but it also happens often when you get ill because there’s a lot of fear, there’s a lot of automatic reactivity. Your brain’s just trying to figure things out all of the time. And so one of the things that we want people to really understand is, we all get intrusive thoughts and we can’t be expected to essentially not think things that we don’t want to think. So it’s less about that and it’s more about how do we respond when we get thoughts that, you know, causes pain in some way, you know, emotional or, or otherwise. And um, a lot of that is about going back to what we were exploring at the beginning, that kind of observational awareness of like, oh, that was a horrible thought that landed.

I can feel that. And seeing if we can get a bit of space from it doesn’t mean cancelling it out. It doesn’t mean replacing it with a a positive thought. It often comes back to this kind of compassionate acceptance. And I think that is a theme that runs through.

Le’Nise Brothers: I’m finding this whole conversation fascinating and it is reminding me a lot of what we talk about in vipassana meditation where it’s really about not attaching power to thoughts.

It’s about observing thoughts, seeing them, and then moving them on. And I found that really interesting. And you know, when I talk about it, there is scepticism and I think living in the UK as a culture, there’s this natural cynicism and scepticism about many, many things, but about a lot of the things that we’re talking about today.

What’s really interesting is that in the book you talk about emotional regulation. So thoughts are part of this, and we get taught that negative emotions are something to be suppressed. Why do you think, I mean, I know why, but I want to hear what you think about why it’s important to accept our feelings and experience them in what you call our window of tolerance.

Dr Sula Windgassen: Mm.

Yeah. Uh, it’s a great question. I think we love to think so, like that’s our preference and that’s often how we get taught to emotionally regulate. So if, and it’s really interesting for any parents listening as well to think about how you respond to your children when they’re upset. Often it is like a reasoning or a rationing.

It’s not that bad because then on Saturday, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Or well think about blah, blah, blah, blah. And like, that’s fine. And it is a, a, we know that cognitive reappraisal and reperceiving are really helpful tools for emotional regulation. The difficulty is where it’s done at the expense of ever just allowing the feeling to be there.

Because often we have feelings that are completely proportionate and understandable because of what we’re experiencing, and therefore they don’t really need to be chased away. And chasing them away actually creates more stress and tension and erodes the relationship that you have with yourself. It’s kind of like a betrayal.

I, I think of it like that these days. It’s no one’s fault. Everybody’s generally trying to help each other, you know, especially thinking about that parent example. But it’s just that we don’t get socialised to the fact that there are other ways to greet emotions. And sometimes it’s just ultimately much more powerful to label and be like, oh, you’re feeling really angry.

I get that. I, and I can see how worked up you are. What do you want to do? And it doesn’t mean like giving into a three or 4-year-old that’s like, I want the ice cream, then. That’s not possible. But like, what do you want to do to get rid of this anger? ’cause I see you’re frustrated. Like, should we go run round or whatever.

I often talk about these three choices that we’ve got with emotions of like, sit with, soothe or channel in some kind of a way. And we we often opt out of most of those things in favour of just thinking and, and try to perceive and, and, and get rid of. And the other interesting thing that I notice from my work with people is they often think that they’re not suppressing because they’re not actively trying to get rid of their emotions.

They’re not trying to push anything down. They don’t feel any effort. And I’m like, well no, your brain’s done that for you already ’cause it’s learned that a long time ago of like, that’s not a good emotion. Put that to one side. Um, let’s think instead let’s like let’s reason why it’s okay that that person did that.

Or like, why, you know, you shouldn’t be upset about it. Our brain’s already done that as a shortcut for us. So we are not feeling the emotion, we’re not identifying with it. And so it’s actually very hard to be like, no, your brain’s done a load of stuff for you before you’ve even realised we kind of need to go back four, five steps to entice the emotion back and give it some room.

It can feel quite intangible, but there’s so much interest in research showing that suppression physically impacts the body. I shared in the, in the book about this study about nurses. And how their diary entries were coded and nurses that suppressed more, had higher emotional suppression, had, uh, reduced diversity in their gut microbiome, which has a massive impact on our immune system, for example.

And there’s other interest in studies about, uh, the role of emotional suppression and, um, inflammation. So it can affect our body in so many different ways. Yeah, and it really is very physical. But it’s hard because there are the physical effects, but we don’t even realise that that’s happening for us.

And so sessions with me can be quite frustrating sometimes for people because it’s like, what’s just happened there? And often it is like someone’s being like on that automatic track of, but it’s okay because such and such blah, blah, blah. I’m like, you were just talking about how frustrated you felt and automatically your brain’s gone off to there.

They’re like, oh yeah, so like, let’s make some room for it again. And then I’d be like, yeah, I don’t really feel it anymore. Okay, well let’s just make some space to allow it. And they’re already off distracted on something else ’cause it’s so hard because it’s felt so not an option or unacceptable sometimes.

As we’ve been learning how to deal with these.

Le’Nise Brothers: This is so interesting and it makes me think of this research that we’ve seen about women and autoimmune conditions, and it makes me wonder about how, you know, women, they can be socialised to suppress negative emotions and to be kind of the caretaker and the cheerleader and how, as you say, this can manifest in the body and with inflammation and gut dysbiosis and how one of the worst end products of this is an autoimmune condition.

Is this something that you have seen in your practice and in, in the research?

Dr Sula Windgassen: It’s really hard with autoimmune conditions because. There’s just such a question mark about what is it that activates this autoimmunity? And I think about it from the 5 senses stress framework, right? If there’s some kind of biological predisposition that then gets activated, and I don’t necessarily think it’s just one thing that activates, I think it’s like a sequence that gets switched on, um, as we experience different things or exposed to different things.

And, and that can be, you know, environmental, but it can also be psychological and it makes a lot of sense that it would be from things like emotional suppression, because emotional suppression doesn’t just impact in one particular way. I gave the example of like gut dysbiosis, which seems a very direct route, but there’s also like direct shifts in the body from like indirect effects of self subjugation.

So like overexerting yourself because you’re so intent on looking after everyone else that you just fail to see what, what, what your capacity actually is. And then your body gets overloaded and, um, and there’s that cumulative wear and tear and things like that. So the pathways and the particular mechanisms we don’t have answers for, but there’s so much research showing that that overlap and that predictive role of stress and particular kind of, does have an impact, does seem to predict these sorts of conditions.

Le’Nise Brothers: Hmm. Something I want to ask you about is, something you referenced in your book about managing symptoms and how to interrupt symptom spirals. Because my specialty is periods and all things that fall out of that, what would you recommend for someone who is experiencing chronic menstrual related pain and they’re experiencing these symptom spirals, what would you recommend to them?

Dr Sula Windgassen: The very first thing is to explore, like what happens when you’re experiencing the pain and from that framework that I put in the book. But there’s also like a free handout on my website that people can download which is like when you get the pain, for example, or if there’s other physical discomfort and you can write down what that is.

What then are the offshoots of that, you know, how do you feel emotionally? What do you end up thinking and what do you end up doing? And there’s very understandable, natural thoughts, emotions, and behavioural responses that we would have from that. And some of them are totally, you know, proportionate and, yeah, we would have to kind of adhere to that. So like, there’s no way I can run that marathon. Yes, true. Wouldn’t be helpful to try and, um, disprove that kind of thing. But there might be other things that we identify as actually then potentially feeds into the pain processes or the, the feeling hopeless or isolated around pain or whatever it might be.

So again, it’s natural to want to withdraw when you’re in pain. So you might notice whenever you’re getting pain, you’re cancelling plans, you’re not going out, you’re just staying sedentary in one area. Spotting that could be a point at which we explore. Is there something that we can shift there and tweak?

And it doesn’t have to be the absolute opposite, keep all your plans and go out, but it might be like an in between, could a friend come over and you have some company, um, and veg out and have, no obligations to entertain. And what’s really interesting when you do start exploring these symptom spiral things is like the assumptions that come with that.

So that example that I’ve just given, if I put that to, to lots of people that I’ve worked with in the past, they might be like, but I would feel bad because I’m not going to be any fun and I might be in pain. And that might be annoying for someone. And, and so it goes back to this self subjugation of like, if I’m not on or, you know, on good form, then it’s unfair of me to ask for company, for example, or comfort.

And that in itself is a really interesting thing to evaluate. Is that true? Can we change that? Can we experiment with that? What happens? And it’s just these little investigations and experimentations that start to shift things. And so like, to use that example, somebody might then find, oh, there is one friend that I would feel comfortable asking to come over or even going over there, but just being on their couch.

And we ended up just watching movies and I fell asleep at 8:00 PM but it was super cosy and I didn’t feel bad. And so like, it doesn’t mean the pain disappears, but the sense of isolation and hopelessness and like, oh God, this is going to be me for the next however long that mitigates. And that’s so important.

We would obviously want to replace that experience with one that is, um, is much less, connected and, um, hopeless.

Le’Nise Brothers: You’ve written this very detailed, very informative and incredibly helpful book. I’m just lifting it up here. What do you want readers to get out of the book?

Dr Sula Windgassen: It’s interesting ’cause just today I, um, shared with my community, I feel like one strand is going really well of what I want for the book and one strand not so well.

So one strand of what I want for the book is for all of those people who feel unseen and dismissed in their suffering and feel hopeless or feel like there’s a lack of options. I wanted to open up options, you know, that there are other things that we can do to work with you and that doesn’t mean it’s all in your head.

And for them to really know that and like see how that works for them in practise. And and I’m very happy that the feedback that I’m getting back is that it is doing that for people. You know, so many lovely messages about, oh, I, I finally feel like somebody has seen my experience and gets it and isn’t telling me it’s all in my head and I can see how these things have an impact and I’m trying this out now.

That’s so important. The other thing, and this is the thing that I often talk about in my community, Body Mind Connect with people is and I talk about this in the book as well, we so often get fed the message that your healing is all on you, it’s all your responsibility. And that in itself is isolating and increases so much pressure, and it’s unfair. And it’s not like, it doesn’t make any sense as humans that that would be how we would heal.

So the other hope that I have for the book is that it meets a wider audience. So it’s not just the people who are themselves suffering or impacted by these issues, but it’s people around them the managers, the colleagues, the HR department, the GP, the healthcare assistant who, who can see more holistically how all of these processes actually have such a big impact and how they can play a part and reduce that stigma that people feel. And obviously that’s a much harder mission ’cause it involves wide reach. It involves, you know, trying to engage people that don’t think it’s relevant for them and showing them that it is even if it’s not specifically related to them in this moment in time.

That’s the thing that I am, that I would really like for this book to kind of help with shift the conversation so it’s not just woo woo.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah. Where can people find the book? You’ve mentioned some resources on your website. Tell us more about that.

Dr Sula Windgassen: Yeah, so the, the book can be found anywhere, um, on Amazon, in Waterstones, hopefully in your independent bookshop.

I had such a lovely member of the community call around so many different independent bookshops and, and check that they had it in stock. So hopefully you can get it pretty much wherever you get your books. Although today if you’re in Australia, it’s just sold out on Amazon, which is pretty cool.

Le’Nise Brothers: Wow, that’s amazing.

Not just pretty cool. That’s amazing.

Dr Sula Windgassen: Also, I, I got the, I looked at the screenshot and I was like, it’s so expensive in Australia, so thank you Australia. So you can get it anywhere you get your books. Also, I should say it’s on audiobook and I keep forgetting to say that because I know it can be quite hard to read nonfiction, especially.

There is lots of science in, I’ve tried to make it accessible, but my brain processes slow and I need to read things a few times. But if you, yes, if it’s, it’s easier to listen, you’ve got limited capacity. I’ve, I recorded it as well, so, um, you can listen to it on audiobook. I also, alongside the book, made these free resources.

So the referencing is all on the website. And there are workbooks, audios, sheets, signposting and resources that are related to each of the chapters and put in order just on my website, which is www.healthpsychologist.co.uk. So if you wanted to implement as you go, I mean, there’s prompts within the book as well, but there’s some extra things to help people.

Le’Nise Brothers: Fantastic. So all of the links for those will be on the show, in the show notes. So we’ve explored quite a lot today. You’re so interesting and I could talk to you for hours. But you know, you’ve gotta leave people wanting more. What’s the one thought that you’d love to leave listeners with today?

Dr Sula Windgassen: The one thought I’d love to, I suppose I’d love to leave listeners with the reflection of what is your relationship with your body? Do you actually see your body as an extension of yourself or do you see it as, you know, an incidental recipient and facilitator of like, what your mind does? How interconnected does it feel?

And how tuned into your body do you think you are? Do you feel able to actually hear it and honour it when it asks you something? So like really good examples of this is like when you feel hungry, do you eat or do you push it down because you’re like, no, I still need to get this work done. Do you even recognise that you feel tired?

Are you a sleep procrastinator? We have so many little habits that we do, that show us that we’re not really that interested in what our body’s telling us, and we can get away with it for such a long time. And we can get away with it, you know, repeatedly. But if we see our bodies as an extension of ourselves, then it is kind of like a betrayal to ourselves.

We’re not looking after ourselves and and then we get frustrated if, our body has difficulties. So I guess it’s a reflection and an invitation to just build that compassion through thinking about what is your relationship with, um, with your body?

Le’Nise Brothers: What is your relationship with your body?

A lot to unpack there for sure. So you’ve mentioned your website is the health psychologist co uk. Where can people find you on social media?

Dr Sula Windgassen: Instagram is the main platform that I am on, which is the_health_psychologist_ and I have just updated my YouTube channel because I’m about to release a podcast on Monday, which is called How We Really Feel, and the first season is deep diving, specifically pelvic and bladder health experiences from that bio-psychosocial lens.

So there’ll be, that will all be on YouTube as well.

Le’Nise Brothers: Fantastic. So all the links, as I say, will be in the show notes. Thank you so much for your time. It’s been wonderful to speak to you and your book It’s All In Your Body available wherever you purchase books. Please go out and get it. Thank you so much.

Dr Sula Windgassen: Thank you so much.

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Period Story · June 25, 2026

Period Story Podcast, Episode 115, Marina Gerner: VC Investors Are Too Embarrassed To Talk About Vaginas In A Business Setting

Did you know that 90% of venture capitalist investors are men? On this episode of Period Story, I talk to Marina Gerner, the journalist and author of The Vagina Business about innovation in femtech and the vagina-centric space.

In this episode, Marina shares:

How a viral article in Wired magazine led to her writing her book The Vagina Business
The pushback she received about the title of the book
How investor squeamishness and embarrassment is holding femtech and vagina-centric businesses back from being able to effectively raise money
Why a data-centric approach is helpful when raising money
The questions you need to ask when choosing a period tracking app to ensure your data is being protected
And of course, the story of her first period

Marina says we need to have more conversations about women’s health and that we’re in a collective learning experience as a society.

Get in touch with Marina:

Her book: The Vagina Business

Her Wired article: We need to talk about investors’ problem with vaginas

Her website

Her Instagram

Her Substack

Marina’s Bio:

As a journalist, Marina has written about books and arts, as well as finance and tech for over a decade. Her range of expertise has led to Marina being called “a Renaissance woman of the modern age.”

She has won several journalism awards and written for The Economist, Jewish Chronicle, Guardian, Financial Times, Wired, the Times Literary Supplement, The Times, and the Wall Street Journal. She has been a contributing editor at The Sunday Times Raconteur, the i newspaper and MoneyWeek. Before that she was a Staff Writer at Money Observer, where she wrote a column called “Marina’s Imaginary Millions.”

As an academic, she is an Adjunct Professor of Commerce & Culture at the NYU Stern School of Business (on their London campus) and she has a PhD from the London School of Economics, which was funded by merit-based scholarships.

Her media appearances include TV shows and radio programmes at France 24, PBS, the BBC World Service and podcast interviews with The Financial Feminist, Trail Blazers and many others.

She has spoken at universities including NYU, Columbia University, and Rice University, and at professional networks like the National Association of Women Business Owners, AthenaDAO, Ladies Who Crunch, Novi Awards, MentorMe NGO, Leaders in Health.

She is a frequent speaker and panel chair at femtech conferences like Women’s Health Week, as well as bigger tech festivals like SXSW, VivaTech, Mindvalley and The Fix.

Born in Kyiv during the Soviet Union, Marina was a toddler, when her brave single mother moved them to the West as political refugees.

She grew up in Frankfurt, has briefly lived in New York and has mainly lived in London, where she can be found drinking cappuccinos with friends and taking her baby to bars.

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SHOW TRANSCRIPT

Marina Gerner Recording

Le’Nise Brothers: Hi Marina. Thank you so much for coming onto the show today. I’m really excited to speak to you. Talk about your book, but let’s get into the question that I start each conversation with, which is tell us the story of your first period.

Marina Gerner: Thank you so much for having me, first of all.

So I knew you were going to ask this question, and my first reaction was to think, well, I don’t really have much of a story to tell, but then I dwelled on that and I thought maybe there’s something in that as well that I need to explain further. Because, so when my period arrived, it was a very natural kind of, it was something I expected, something I knew would arrive soon.

And when it got there, I just, welcomed it. And I thought, oh, well, great. Here’s my period, you know, I’ve been waiting for you. And I think the reason it was not an event that was shocking or surprising was because my mother has always been very open about female bodies, women’s health, female orgasms, all of these things.

So I was brought up in a way that has always made me feel very comfortable in my own body. So when I got my period, I, yeah, I just thought, oh, great, here it is. And I have always felt about it like that since that’s still my reaction nowadays. Whereas I have one friend who when she got her period, her mother actually celebrated it with her and took her on a trip.

And I think that’s also very nice to embrace it to an extent where you’re celebrating it, where you are having something to mark that occasion, which is not something we, we typically do nowadays, right? When somebody enters menopause or so on. And even after giving birth, we don’t have that many rituals left nowadays, but I think those are very powerful.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah, I think the I idea of ritual is really powerful, especially in a world where everything feels a bit ephemeral and things move really quickly. So having that ritual or that moment to mark an occasion, whether it’s first period, birth even I, I always say I wish people knew when their last period was so they could actually mark that occasion because you know, you only know when you haven’t had a period for a year.

Oh, that’s menopause and that’s it. So that idea of ritual is really, really interesting. And what you said about your mother being very matter of fact about periods and sex, I think that’s fantastic and I wish more of us had had that experience. I have a 12-year-old son and I’m trying to be quite matter of fact about all of this.

He asks me questions and I’m sometimes I cringe inside, but I have to really like be matter of fact about it. And he actually said to me, Mama, I like asking you these questions ’cause you give me the straight facts. And I thought, well, I try. So…

Marina Gerner: That’s fantastic.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah.

Marina Gerner: Yeah.

That’s really great. I appreciate that you do that. Um, yeah, my mother is a very unconventional, unusual woman. She’s an artist. And I told my friends that she was telling me all of these things to an extent where my friends would ask me questions and say, oh, you know, can you ask your mom about this and that?

So I think it’s, it’s a very powerful thing to do, to be that person who’s happy to talk about things.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah. And what’s really interesting is then you, you’ve written a book called The Vagina Business. So speaking about being very matter of fact. The title of your book, the Vagina Business, it says what’s what it is on the tin, as they say in the UK.

Marina Gerner: Yes.

Le’Nise Brothers: And you’ve shared some really interesting stories in your book. One story you wrote about was how many femtech entrepreneurs have shared with you that they’ve encountered a fear of vaginas, um, when they, you know, are pitching or speaking about their businesses. And you’ve also shared this squeamishness that many female femtech entrepreneurs have encountered.

Just talking about this idea of being a matter of fact, why do you think there’s still this squeamishness when it comes to femtech and, being in this space?

Marina Gerner: Yeah, so, so let me take a step back actually. So Femtech for those of you who haven’t heard the term before, it refers to female technology and it’s technology focused on female bodies, women’s health.

It can be anything from periods to menopause, but also going beyond the uterus. Because when we talk about women’s health, it’s important to remember, we don’t just talk about reproductive health, but all aspects of our health, including heart health and bone health and so on. And I’ve been a journalist for over 15 years, and I first started writing about technology focused on health in I think 2019, 2020.

So I got into this space in my early thirties. And at the time I knew that I wanted to have a child soon. So that was part of my own, you know, part of my own motivation for being interested in this space. And I also learned that nine in ten first time mothers experience a birth injury. So 90% of mothers experience a birth injury.

And I thought, that’s a statistic that really shouldn’t be allowed to exist. And is there a way we can prevent that? And I came across a company called Materna Medical in California. They are a femtech company, so they’re developing new technology focused on women’s health. And what they’re creating is a dilator, a very simple device that in the first stage of labour.

So when your cervix dilates at that same time, the dilator pre-stretches the muscles of the vaginal canal and the ideas that by the time the baby comes through, those muscles have been pre-stretch, just like you would stretch your muscles when you are working out, before a workout. In that same way, the muscles have been pre-stretched so by the time the baby comes through, they’re elastic and you’re less likely to experience a birth injury, less likely to have pelvic organ prolapse later down the line. So I thought, this is a really interesting device. It’s not on the market yet, and it’s being developed. It’s the first of its kind to be regulated as a medical device in the United States.

And I looked into the space and I learned that the last big innovation in the standard of care of birth was the epidural, which was popularised in the 1950s and sixties. And I thought, you know, that’s incredible. If you go into a hospital right now to give birth, you’ll be offered the epidural as this incredible thing.

And I thought, there’s no other area of society or technology where we give people something that was popularised in the 1950s and sixties and we say, Hey, look, this is a cutting edge floppy disc. You know, there’s no other area where innovation really hasn’t caught up with the present moment. Um, there’s another device, the forceps, which is many, many centuries old, and it’s basically a set of salad forks.

There’s also vacuum delivery, which is basically a toilet plunger.

Le’Nise Brothers: Mm-hmm.

Marina Gerner: So we’re using these devices that are really not high tech at all for something that is, you know, one of the most memorable experiences in any mother’s life. Something that is the most common reason for why we go to hospital.

Hospitals have whole wings dedicated to childbirth, and yet we haven’t seen the level of innovation in the space that we see in other areas. So I wondered why that’s the case. And I interviewed people in what I describe as the vagina centric space. So not just childbirth, but also menopause symptoms and so on.

And they told me again and again and again that it’s really hard to raise money in this space because VC investors, those are venture capital investors, those who invest in innovative companies, they are too embarrassed to talk about vaginas in a business setting. I have this quote from one VC investor who says, I don’t want to talk about vaginas in my Monday morning partner meeting.

You know, that kind of tells you the attitude that exists out there. That was so shocking to me to learn that the reason we don’t get the innovation that we clearly deserve and need and want is because there’s a bunch of guys. And something like 90% of VC investors are men. So there’s a bunch of guys sitting in a boardroom somewhere and they don’t want to talk about vaginas in a business setting, and therefore they don’t invest in these companies.

That was really shocking to me. And because I’m a journalist, I decided to write a story, and the story was called, We Need to Talk About Investors’ Problem with Vaginas. That story came out in Wired Magazine . It went viral. So it really hit a nerve with people. And then I took it from there and I interviewed many, many, many more people in the space to figure out what the solution is.

And I think, so you asked me why there’s the squeamishness, and it’s interesting, the squeamishness does not just exist among male VC investors, as I’m sure you know, but also female VC investors and also people everywhere else in the nonprofit world. In the academic world, whenever I’ve interviewed somebody who focuses on vaginas or on women’s health, each person, no matter what kind of industry or sector they’re in, they’ve all encountered some form of doubt and resistance and squeamishness.

Le’Nise Brothers: Hmm. And that’s really interesting because often I speak to women who have gone to their doctor and their expectation before is that if they have a female doctor, that they will have a better experience. And I would say 50% of the time they come away saying you know, my doctor told me this is normal.

I had to deal with, many of my patients have to deal with this. This is normal. We’re talking about heavy periods or painful periods where, we’ve set this expectation that these things are normal when they’re not. And then you have women who come to me and they’ll say, well, I actually had a male doctor and he was so helpful.

So it’s interesting that when you get into the more medical space there’s a lot of women who have these expectations. But then when you go into, you know, the VC space where, you know, there’s these situations that you’ve just described. And then I wonder, just talking about the inspiration for the book, you talked about this article that you wrote for Wired that went viral and after it went viral, were you then approached by publishers?

I’m always curious about, having written a book myself, I’m always curious about this side of it, like did you get approached to say like, we think you should write a book about this. Tell us we wanna know more.

Marina Gerner: Sure. So let me answer the first part

Le’Nise Brothers: Okay.

Marina Gerner: About female doctors and male doctors, because I think that’s really fascinating.

So female investors have similar biases to male investors, and sometimes that’s surprising to people. But you know, women are not inherently better or more moral. We’re all raised in the same society, right? So it’s more about changing how everyone thinks. And the same goes for doctors. They’re all trained in the same way.

But then there was a really fascinating large scale study by Professor Greenwood. They analysed heart attack patients at hospitals in Florida, and they found that women actually have higher odds of surviving a heart attack if their emergency department doctor is also a woman.

Le’Nise Brothers: Oh,

Marina Gerner: so statistically in some cases, having a female doctor does help.

But they also had another hopeful insight in the study, which is that if your doctor is male, they are also good at treating female patients if they’ve previously worked with lots of female patients before, and if they have lots of female colleagues. So it really depends. And I think it’s important to say if you feel gaslit by a doctor or if you feel dismissed, then find someone else.

Because unfortunately that’s still very common in the UK and everywhere else. But there are people who have more insights and are more willing to listen. And so at this point in time, I think there is more awareness and things are changing, but oftentimes we still have to advocate for ourselves.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah, absolutely.

Marina Gerner: And the other question, so I wrote the article, it went viral, and no, nobody approached me. I don’t think that’s how it works in the publishing world. I think it’s the kind of world that you have to fight your way into. At least in my experience, I was never really approached by anyone or given anything on a platter.

No. I, I found an agent by messaging people on Twitter as it was called back then. And then I put together a book proposal and we went out and we pitched it to multiple publishers, and then I managed to get a an international book deal. But it was a huge amount of work. And, you know, for this book, I interviewed over 100 people across 15 countries.

And so again, that was a multi-year project with deep investigative research. It’s a really long term project, that kind of a book. And people often underappreciate that I think people have this romantic idea of like, oh, you’re sitting in a coffee shop and you know, you’re looking into the sky, you know, you’re writing down your thoughts.

And at least with my book, that’s not the case. It’s a lot of research, a long bibliography with lots of studies. I have a PhD, so I look at academic research a lot. And then going out into the world and, and talking about this book has also taken a year and a half at this point. So overall it’s a five to seven year project.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah I completely relate to that, that romantic notion, oh, you’re writing a book, you’ll be staring out the sky, you’ll be inspired. But really it’s a lot of agonising over research papers and like doubting yourself and like, does this make sense? I often say to authors, it’s putting your book out in the world that launch day is the second step.

First step is writing the book. Second step is that launch day and then it’s out in the world and then you have to promote it and we talked about this ephemeral world that we live in, and now it’s this, you’ve got this concrete thing that I wrote this book, and I just think that’s just so fantastic for authors and writers to have something to hold onto.

Let’s get back to the book. And all of the interesting stories and research that you high highlighted. One thing you talked about earlier was this definition of the word femtech. It’s really interesting, this kind of, these new terms that are developing and, mompreneur and these words that some people can feel are a bit diminishing.

Why is it femtech? Why isn’t it just technology? Can you talk a little bit about whether or not you think, based on your, your experience and the work that you’ve done, that there can be a risk when potential investors and VCs hear they’re meeting with a femtech company?

Marina Gerner: Yeah, that’s a great question and an important one.

So femtech was coined, I believe in 2016 by Ida Tin, the founder of Clue, the period app. And I think it’s been a very useful term in that it has brought people together. Nowadays we have femtech communities, we have femtech conferences but of course. I think the issue really is about women’s health and innovation.

So whether you want to call it femtech or not, doesn’t actually matter. You could just say women’s health innovation, you could call it something else. And I think these terms come and go, but we will always require innovation focused on female bodies and conversations around female bodies. so, if people find the term helpful, they should use it.

If it doesn’t speak to them, don’t use it. And in some cases it might be better to say you’re a health tech company focused on women. In some cases it might be better to use that term because femtech, the way I’ve defined it is to say it’s companies, nonprofits, and research projects that move women’s health forward.

So you can see it’s not just focused on companies, it’s also focused on researchers and, and other people. And I’ve defined it in an optimistic, in an idealistic way, but people also abuse the term. I’ve seen plastic surgery companies advertise themselves as femtech. I’ve seen, I think bras and yoga pants claim that they’re femtech.

So obviously people use it in all sorts of ways, even though I would say that’s absolutely nothing to do with femtech, and it’s quite the opposite. For now it continues to be a helpful term because people can find each other.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah. You wrote that taking a more data-centric approach is one way to pitch vagina centric businesses as a way of getting over that squeamishness and just focusing on pure numbers.

Among the entrepreneurs that you interviewed, have you seen them had any success from actually, instead of focusing on the numbers, focusing more on personal experiences?

Marina Gerner: I think it always has to be a combination of the two, because as an entrepreneur, you’re presenting people with a business case, right?

So you always have to have some kind of metrics, even if you’re very early stages, you still have to show them the number of customers, potential customers, you know, the market size and so on. So you would never only talk about your personal story. That might be good for a TED Talk, but it’s not good for an investor pitch, you know?

Um, you always need some kind of data, whatever that may be. The difficulty is that with femtech companies, oftentimes they are very early stage companies, so they don’t have that much data to show yet. And in that case, investors have to rely more on their gut feeling or recommendations by other people.

So bias can creep in that way. And we know that female founders are more likely to raise money in industries that are seen as gender congruent. So women are more likely to raise in fashion or the so-called beauty industry, which I always think we should call something else rather than in engineering and technology.

And then in femtech you have the added obstacle of stigma. So on the one, if you are, for example, if you’re creating a new kind of condom you are in a male dominated industry. So you’re not in a gender congruent space. You might be a product designer, engineer, and you’re also dealing with something that’s stigmatised.

So I think you are facing some quite unique obstacles in that space compared to other spaces.

Le’Nise Brothers: Thinking about all of the interviews that you did for your book. You interviewed over a hundred entrepreneurs and researchers and investors. We’ve talked about obstacles, we’ve talked about stigma.

We’ve talked about biases. Were there any interviews that surprised you?

Marina Gerner: So I usually do a lot of research before I interview people. I already have quite a good idea of, you know, who they are what they’re doing. So I wouldn’t say anyone surprised me, but every single person I’ve spoken to has inspired me in some way.

So I’ve probably met over a thousand people in this space, you know, come across hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people. And then the ones I’ve chosen to interview and to include in the book are those who’ve inspired me the most in some way where I thought they’re doing something really special, something that needs to exist in the world and something that more people need to know about.

Le’Nise Brothers: Were there any biases that you had prior to these interviews and writing the book that through the interviews that you did, you were, you had to confront or change?

Marina Gerner: Hmm, that’s an interesting question. I think what I’m drawn to intuitively are people from minority backgrounds with unusual stories ’cause that’s my story too.

I was always going to interview people across many countries. I think somebody else may have just focused on the UK, you know, another author may have just found five companies in London. But I, that was never going to be me. You know, I’ve interviewed people in India and in Nigeria and in Japan, and that was, that was always something I was going to do.

And I found entrepreneurs with working class backgrounds and, you know, single mothers and, you know, I grew up with a single mother, so that’s probably another, um, kind of person I, I’m drawn to. So I think I became, oftentimes I became more and more aware as I was interviewing someone. And as I learned more about them, I thought, ah, okay, you know, they’re doing something great and that’s what got my attention first.

But now that I’m talking to them, I can understand like why maybe on a gut level I was drawn to this person.

Le’Nise Brothers: That’s really interesting, that process of doing the research, but then actually connecting with the person, hearing their story and connections that we can make through, you know, meeting people face to face.

That’s really interesting. I want to just move on to talk a little bit about period apps, because you’ve shared that this is a particular interest of yours. The app space is growing rapidly and I see this from working with my clients and you know, as a person who has to keep on top of what’s going on in this market.

I want to talk firstly about this latent need that you’ve written about where there’s a bit of education required before consumers will be fully on board with a product or technology. Do you think that’s still the case with period apps?

Marina Gerner: Hmm. I think that’s probably the space that got destigmatised the most to an extent.

Not fully. But compared to pelvic organ prolapse or incontinence for example, I think those are still more stigmatised areas that will need a lot of education for people to, uh, realise that they’re not the only ones who are suffering with something. Because if you think you’re the only one, you wouldn’t even dare to think that somebody may already have come up with a solution or that somebody might be working on a solution, right? Whereas with period apps, I saw a statistic, I can’t recall it right now, but quite a large proportion of women use period apps now in the UK. It’s very common and there are over, last time I look, there are hundreds and hundreds of period apps on the market. And it’s important to say that they’re all created by different companies.

So there are some companies that take a lot of care that make sure all of their insights are evidence-based and that the privacy of the users is protected, that the data is anonymised and so on. And then there are other companies that are gaming companies or utility companies that have created a period app without much thought just because they realised, oh, there’s an opportunity, here you go, here’s a period app.

And those may not be as helpful as some of the specialised apps. So that’s one thing that’s important to say. I do think we are reaching a level of saturation, maybe to an extent where people have so many different apps to choose from, and Flo Health, which is one of the apps, has become a unicorn in Europe.

You know, they’ve raised a lot of money. So I think we are more educated now than we ever were, but still not on a, on a population level.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah.

Marina Gerner: Um. Yeah, I think the vast majority of women would still not know when they’re ovulating.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah. That’s really interesting that you mentioned that because I interviewed a founder of a, um, period and menstrual cycle related app a couple of weeks ago, and she said that based on their research, about 40% of women don’t know when they ovulate.

Marina Gerner: Exactly. Yeah.

Le’Nise Brothers: So you also mentioned Flo Health.

Marina Gerner: Mm-hmm.

Le’Nise Brothers: And this leads to my next question about period apps around security and privacy, because they were involved in a big case around data protection.

Marina Gerner: Mm-hmm.

Le’Nise Brothers: Can you talk a little bit about, from your perspective and your research, when someone is choosing a period app and they might not be concerned about privacy, they might be concerned, but what are the basics that someone needs to just have in their mind when they’re selecting an app?

Marina Gerner: Yeah, so I would definitely read the, uh, privacy policy of that app, just see if they even have one. Some apps don’t have one. And if you read it, you know, is it user friendly? Can you understand what it says? I would also always Google the name of the app and key terms like scandal, data leak privacy concerns, and see what comes up because these things keep changing, right?

An app that may have made mistakes in the past could now have hired a new team. So things keep changing in this space. There was some academic research that was done comparing all the privacy policy apps, uh, all the privacy policies among the apps. And Clue tends to do quite well in academic research.

But I would always recommend with any app actually that concerns your your health or anything else that’s personal. I would always Google the name of the app and a key term like scandal, court case, data leak whatever else comes to mind.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah, I think, we’re giving a lot of information over to these companies and on the surface you might think, well, what does it matter that they know when my first and last day of my period is that why does it matter?

But then you overlay what’s going on in the United States.

Marina Gerner: Yeah.

Le’Nise Brothers: And the changes around abortion laws and women being penalised for having miscarriages, then you know, you have to take a more considered look at, you know, who you’re choosing to give your data to.

Marina Gerner: Exactly. Even though it is quite easy to input false data into a period app.

So in some ways it’s not the most revealing data. Usually when people are prosecuted for abortions in the United States it’s not, it doesn’t tend to be period app data that is used, but it’s more likely to be text messages from other people. And Google searches browser history. So there is in the digital universe, there is data that’s actually much more revealing than period app data.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah. I want to just close off by asking you a little bit more about your book, but specifically the title, because what we’re seeing a lot at the moment is businesses and companies and people who work in this space focusing on words that might be flagged. So vagina, vulva, orgasm, these sort of words that working in this space you would just use.

And they almost not, they don’t feel anodyne, but you just say them regularly, but they get flagged and posts get taken down on Instagram or TikTok, or you have to use these kind of bizarre made up words to get around these social media filters.

Marina Gerner: Yeah.

Le’Nise Brothers: Um, did you have any experiences that gave you pause when you were promoting your book, specifically around the title?

Marina Gerner: Oh, yes. Long before I started promoting the book, actually, when I came up with the title, it was an issue right away because when we pitched the book, we spoke to multiple publishers, my agent and I, and every editor we spoke to said, you know, it’s a brilliant book, but you’ll need to change the title.

And part of the reason was because they have, every publishing house has a sales team, and the sales team goes out and pitches the book to Amazon and to Waterstones and so on. And if the salespeople are embarrassed by the title, they’re not going to do a good job of pitching it. So after a while I managed to convince them, you know, and I said the whole point is to de-stigmatise the conversation and to speak to that scenario of investors in a boardroom, not wanting to talk about vaginas in a business setting.

So for a while I thought the issue was settled because we did sell the book to the largest women founded publishing house in the world. And then towards the end of my towards the, the end of the deadline, I got a message from my editor saying, well, we’ve had some feedback from bookstores in the US in particular saying they’re not going to display it.

They’re not going to mention it in their newsletters because the title is too much. And please, can you come up with 16 alternative titles? So I did. I called two of my good friends and we brainstormed some titles, and then they tested all of those titles on our target audience. And guess which title won.

Le’Nise Brothers: So you won in the end

Marina Gerner: The Vagina Business? Yes, exactly. It did. Yeah. So people really like it. And then when it came out, I had a venue that, that turned me down from having an event and another author who refused to write an endorsement and some, uh, reviews on Amazon were blocked because people mentioned vagina in the review.

So it keeps coming up. The book has won two awards, and in one case, the organiser was not allowed to announce the title of the book on stage, so she had to have the event somewhere else. So it keeps coming up as an issue, which I always find really interesting, um, right. To be like, oh, there it is again.

Somebody has an issue. But at the same time, I often hear from readers that they love the title, that they’re really energised by it and that they read the book in public on purpose. So I’ve had quite a few people saying to me, you know, I’m reading it on the train on my commute. I read it on the plane, I’m reading it on the beach.

Because they like that reaction.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah. These small acts of rebellion.

Marina Gerner: Yeah. That’s it. Yeah, exactly.

Le’Nise Brothers: We talked about the process of writing the book, getting a deal, getting an agent, and then putting the book out in the world. And you’ve said that this is a five to seven year long process so far. Dare I ask what’s coming up next for you?

Marina Gerner: So people usually expect me to say I am working on the next book which I probably will, but what I’m planning to do right now over the next few weeks is absolutely nothing. I’ve been promoting the book for, yeah, about a year and a half now. I’ve been invited to speak at, you know, conferences and events and book clubs all over the world and in the UK and I feel a little bit burnt out right now.

So I’ve decided to take a few weeks off and just do as little as possible because I, I believe that we have different phases, you know, we live in, in seasons and I haven’t done nothing for a while.

Le’Nise Brothers: I, I love that, that taking that time to rest and not rushing off to the next thing.

Marina Gerner: Yeah.

Le’Nise Brothers: So thinking about our conversation today and maybe thinking about the interviews and the work that you’ve done, is there a final thought that you’d love to leave listeners with today?

Marina Gerner: Yeah.

We could all have more conversations about these topics, you know, whether it’s with your best friend or a family member. And something I often hear from readers is, you made me rethink the way I talk to my daughter. Or I finally had a conversation with my mother. And I think that’s some of the most powerful feedback I’ve been getting.

Something else, people, women especially often say is, I’m embarrassed by how much I’ve learned from your book. And I think that’s such an interesting way. It’s exactly that phrasing that I get. I’m embarrassed by how much I’ve learned. And people think it’s, it’s an individual thing to, you know, not knowing something.

But the reality is we’re all learning more about women’s health. We’re all in this collective learning experience as a society. So I think there’s nothing to be embarrassed about. And I’m happy to say that I have learned a lot by writing this book. There are many things I didn’t know before I did the research.

And so that’s, yeah, that’s something else I I’d like people to feel is that it’s completely normal to be part of this collective learning experience.

Le’Nise Brothers: There’s always something new to learn and there’s always new research to dig into. And having worked in this space for such a long time now, I’m really heartened by the fact that there is more and more research about specific areas in women’s health now.

So that makes me feel really positive.

Marina Gerner: Yeah.

Le’Nise Brothers: So if people want to buy the book and they want to find out more about the research you’ve done and this Wired article specifically, where can they find that, where can they find out more about you?

Marina Gerner: Sure. So you can find the book at your local bookstore.

If they don’t have it on display, you can always ask very loudly, where’s The Vagina Business? Um, or you can find it on Amazon, of course, I think it’s on offer there right now actually. You can also find me on Substack. I write a free newsletter on women’s health and innovation, and you can find me on Instagram as well.

Le’Nise Brothers: Fantastic. Thank you so much for coming onto the show. Please pick up Marina’s book. It’s fantastic. And yeah, enjoy your, your time of rest.

Marina Gerner: Thank you so much. It was lovely talking to you.

View the post

Period Story · June 18, 2026

Period Story Podcast, Episode 114, Lexi Elven: Try And Perservere When You Feel Lost

What would you do if your period was so painful that you would faint when you were on the toilet? This was the dilemma Lexi Elven, my guest on today’s episode of Period Story faced for 8 years.

In this episode, Lexi shares:

Why she turned to Reddit to help her understand why she was in so much pain that she would faint during the first two days of her period
The phrase two GPs on an endometriosis Reddit forum told her to say to her doctor, which helped put her on a diagnosis pathway
How a second opinion led to her receiving a bowel endometriosis diagnosis after 8 years
How yoga has been a helpful tool to manage endometriosis symptoms
And of course, the story of her first period

Lexi says that if you’re in a similar situation, it’s important to try and persevere if you feel lost and not to let embarrassment stop you from seeking help.

Thank you, Lexi!

Lexi’s Bio

Lexi Elven is a motion graphics designer and yoga teacher who founded Blithe Yoga in 2016 as a cosy yoga supper club in her living room in East London. Blithe then grew into a warm community studio space in Stratford with a simple intention to make yoga accessible, affordable, and inclusive for every body.

In 2025 Blithe Yoga became a Community Interest Company (CIC), and Blithe Yoga continues to serve the Stratford community with high-quality teaching rooted in accessibility and diversity. Expanding their offerings through yoga courses, workshops, and special events, all designed to nurture connection, wellbeing, and joy.

Get in touch with Lexi:

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SHOW TRANSCRIPT

Le’Nise Brothers: Hi Lexi. Thank you so much for coming onto the show. Let’s get started with me asking you the question that I start each episode with, which is tell us the story of your first period.

Lexi Elven: Thank you for having me.

This is such an interesting question because I really haven’t thought about it until you asked. So I am half Chinese. I grew up in Hong Kong. I actually went to an international school and we did get some period information in the school, but it was very full of untruths, like tampons break your hymen.

And there was definitely an implication or an insinuation that you don’t really want to go down the tampon route, like we would prefer you to go down the pad route. So there was already this kind of slightly shamey culture around that. And I was probably around 10 or 11 when that talk happened. And it was very much, girls were separated from the boys and I was in year six, so the very last year of my primary school.

And when I got my first period, I was sort of prepared in the sense that I knew it was going to happen. I think I was one of the first girls in our year to get it. So it, it wasn’t like I had friends to talk to about it. And my mum, at the time worked as a producer in advertising and on Sundays she very much gets a lie-in.

There is like a do not wake mum up on a Sunday. And I got my period on a Sunday and I remember being like, what do I do? Do I wake mummy up? I needed to, I needed to tell her. ’cause um, she’s a single working mum so I had no one else to speak to. And I very gently knocked on the door and I just said, mummy, something’s happened.

And immediately she like leapt out of bed. She knew exactly what I was talking about. She had a bag prepared with pads in it and she just gave me one and just said, do you know what to do? And because I did go to this class, I was like, yeah, of course I know what to do. And I bring that up because actually because my mum is Chinese, there’s been a lot of stuff culturally where as a third culture kid, there’s a lot of stuff we don’t really talk about.

And she never sat me down and had the period talk or any of that. That was very much a school thing. But the fact that she had prepared this bag was a lot of care. Like she was preparing for it. And I quite often say as a mixed kid, sometimes your Asian mums will surprise you. And this was like a, like a thing.

I actually remember like, oh, it actually surprised me in a good way. ’cause I was expecting to be like told off. ’cause she was sleeping in, she’d been working hard, but actually she was so on it. And I, I did think of that like, oh, that’s actually really nice thing that happened because my mum, when she got her period, it was a very different thing.

My Chinese grandmother, she was lovely, I loved her, but her knowledge of sex and periods was not based in truth or science. So when my mum got her period, she was very shamed. And there was a Chinese phrase that was used, which is not a nice phrase. It was , which is like serves you right. As in it was a bad thing.

Like, oh, you are now cursed, serves you right.

Le’Nise Brothers: Right.

Lexi Elven: And that’s really quite shocking, right? But that I think goes to show how much that has changed in two generations. And I don’t have daughters, I have two sons now, but I do teach my sons about period. You know, when they come into the bathroom with me, they have to see me deal with it and so they’re very much aware of it. And sometimes they’ll just be like, mummy, are you on your period? Like, are you okay? Like, are you bleeding? And, and I think that’s really important. So it has shifted, but there’s been some really interesting cultural things that may, this question made me think about, which I never really thought about.

So yeah, that’s my memory.

Le’Nise Brothers: Can you say more about, you use this phrase, third culture?

Lexi Elven: Yeah.

Le’Nise Brothers: Can you for listeners who might not be familiar with the term, can you say what that is?

Lexi Elven: So, third culture, kids, to my understanding and how I identify in it, are people who straddle multiple worlds.

And we are in this liminal space where we are recognised by each other, but maybe not so much by the two cultures that we represent. So I am half white, half Chinese. I grew up in Hong Kong. I very much feel culturally Chinese, but Chinese people may not recognise me as being fully Chinese, but when I’m in the West, people only see me as Asian.

So you sit in this liminal space between two cultures or multiple, if you are from multiple cultures where you understand and can translate between these two cultures, but you sit in a space where they may not see you. So I guess third culture kids, we always seek each other and there’s, and thanks to Instagram there is a lot of visibility.

So now we have the term wasian, which we never had when I was growing up, and blasian, which again, so cool lots of social media sort of groups and gatherings and communities are really existing now. And even now I can spot like a wasian from a hundred metres. Like we know each other, uh, we can see each other and there’s often a look like we know we’re mixed.

And yeah, it’s, it’s kind of fun. I, I’m friends with a lot of mums who are also mixed cultures, mixed Asian, mixed white. And I think it’s ’cause we’re raising that next generation of children who identify in this third culture space as well. So yeah, that’s how I would define third culture kid.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah. That’s so interesting. And you talked a lot about culture, so the effect that cultural beliefs had on your grandmother, your mother, and then what you were taught. And what’s interesting now is that you see a lot of people, especially on social media, talking about traditional Chinese medicine and using those cultural insights and medicinal insights as a route to have a better menstrual experience.

Can you talk a little bit about the things that you’ve had to unlearn. Cultural beliefs that you know now are false? So you mentioned one earlier, is there anything else that you’ve had to unpick as you’ve gotten older?

Lexi Elven: This is a funny question ’cause we also enter into this area where there is this weird thing on social media now where people who aren’t Chinese are saying like, I’m in a very Chinese time in my life.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah.

Lexi Elven: And all of us are like, what? Like we’re not, we’re not really, are you sure is? I’m not sure the hot water only is the thing that classifies it. I can only speak about some of the untruths that my grandmother really spoke about. And at the time, even when I was in school, I’m like, that’s not right.

So for instance, there was a lot of pressure for women to have a son. ’cause we have a culture where the boys have preference. And my grandmother definitely had a favourite child who was a son. And so I think there was that general feeling like the women or the daughters were not as important, but in our culture, they’re also the carers.

So they’re doing most of the care. And I, and because I was raised in a single parent household, I was raised by my mum who was this phenomenal, like, hardworking woman. A lot of those myths were, you know, quite apparently false to me. And a lot of the myths were like if you had a daughter shock, that was your, your fault.

Like you were incapable of producing a son. And of course we now know that’s nothing to do with the woman that is very much down to the, the sperm on the side of however the baby was made. So it’s, it’s really not the fault of the mum and or the person birthing. It’s very much down to science, which really wasn’t explained back then because as far as they were concerned, the baby was grown in the women.

And how the baby turned out was very much whatever happened inside the body. So there was a lot of false sciences in that. I still drank a mixture of red dates. They’re also called jujubes and goji berries, which is translating goji berries and longan. So it’s like three types of fruit and in a combination that can help soothe period pain and soothe cramps.

And actually it’s a mixture that I drank after I gave birth. Um, my mother did confinement with me. So if you don’t know, confinement is the Chinese practice, which is also known as zuò yuè zi or the sitting month. And when I was pregnant with my first child, I called my mum who was in Hong Kong at the time.

I was in London. And I said, would you like to do confinement with me? And I thought it would just be the confinement that her mum had where her mum, I was born in Singapore. My mum was working in advertising at the time, so that’s where I was. And my grandmother flew out to Singapore and just prepared some traditional medicines and typical soups that she was prepared.

So this is like grandmother’s, mothers passing down that tradition. And I thought it would be like that, but mum actually had an experience where my grandmother prepared something which was traditional, but the birth that she had, it wasn’t actually suitable. And she had she had a cut in her body and the doctor who was Singaporean Chinese specifically said to her, do not have this traditional Chinese soup.

This will actually make your healing worse. So they’re very, they were aware of it. It wasn’t like they, they didn’t know about the custom of postnatal care, but my grandmother prepared it anyway and just didn’t believe the doctors. And my mum started to swell, and she talks about this story because my grandmother cried.

She was like, oh no, I’ve done this to my daughter. And she was thinking she was preparing this healing soup and it just didn’t do what was intended for my mum. And this is a wider question of actually traditional Chinese medicine or Ayurveda, whatever traditional forms of medicine you choose, these are.

Very difficult things. You have to study them for very, very many years. We literally think of them as our herbalists and doctors, and you have to take a whole degree in it. And it takes many, many years. And sometimes what you just see is a recipe online like, oh, this will work. It might not work. Because according to my births that I had, which were very different, I had to have different solutions for the births that I had.

And I think because my mum went through that experience with her mum, she was like, okay, I’m going to do confinement with my daughter and I’m going to look after my grandchildren, but I’m going to get myself qualified. So she actually went and got herself qualified as a confinement woman, which is like a bit of a mini course degree that you could do because she wanted to make sure she didn’t get it wrong ’cause she had that experience with my grandmother.

It’s important to note that as well as being trained as a confinement person. My mum is not the one dealing with the herbs. Like she works with the herbalist. She is working with someone in tandem who then prepares according to your birth, the type of herbs and soups that you need.

So when I was in London waiting for my mum to travel over, a very exciting box arrived, which was like this huge box full of 60 packets of herbal soups. Each one written for the, the day that you’re meant to have it, whether or not it’s morning or afternoon. And each of them did a completely different thing.

And so depending on whether or not you had a caesarean or whether or not you had a vaginal birth, you would have different suits and different teachers for, and different remedies. So I guess what I’m saying is there’s, there are lots of things circling around online and the justification is, oh, it’s traditional Chinese medicine, therefore it’s good for you.

I would caveat that with, yes. And it might not be like, you need to make sure you are actually putting into your body what will help ’cause maybe something might not. There, there could be a contraindication. I would say work with someone who’s actually qualified, I guess is what I’m saying.

Because sometimes just looking online, it, it might not be helpful and you might be feeding yourself as is the plethora of untruths online. You have to make sure that the information you have is right. So just because we label it with traditional Chinese medicine is not a 100% this is going to work for you scenario.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah. I think that’s a really great point. Just because you see it online doesn’t mean it’s going to work for you, work with a qualified professional. I think that applies in so many different areas. Um,

Lexi Elven: we’re all made up of different things.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah.

Lexi Elven: And your body composite is different.

What you take into your body will be different. We believe in Chinese culture that your body itself is comprised of like something that is more heated or something that is more cooling. And in Indian, uh, philosophy, they talk about your doshas, which is a very similar concept. mum and I are definitely completely different.

mum is always tracking cold, I’m always tracking hot. So even from an anecdotal point of view, we already know our bodies are not similar in that sense. So that’s why you would have to work with someone just to cater to you and your, your personal needs.

Le’Nise Brothers: That’s so interesting because you do start to see, especially just continuing this kind of thread of what we’ve seen online.

You mentioned the hot water. Things like always covering your feet, you know, don’t walk around bare feet. Don’t drink really cold things. And these basic principles that everyone thinks, oh, that’s Chinese medicine.

Lexi Elven: Mm-hmm.

Le’Nise Brothers: And so what you’re saying is go a little bit deeper.

Lexi Elven: Yeah.

Le’Nise Brothers: If you’re interested, work with a professional, find out what’s right for your body.

Lexi Elven: So I teach pregnant women and would run, uh, pregnancy retreats. And with this we did a little confinement section and talked about postnatal care. And we do talk about try not to have raw food or try and have cooked things and warm, warm drinks.

We do talk about this, but also we talk about this, this, uh, concept where in confinement. There’s almost this urban legend. It’s true, where there’s no bathing. And to expand on that point, it would be back in the day, water wasn’t very clean. And so when we talked about no bathing, it was also a hygiene thing because actually you are in this very raw state.

You may have wounds on your body. You don’t want to be inviting that bacteria into your body because the water itself might not be very clean. Um, and so it can be brought into modern practice. Like I definitely washed after I, but my mother would make me this big bucket of ginger tea, which was just super, super concentrated water that was boiled and it was boiled with fresh ginger.

And mum would make a huge bucket of this every morning. And that was the water that I bathed with that day. So I’d wait for this scaldingly hot water to become more comfortable to use, and then I would use that to wash my body. And there are, warming properties of ginger because the ginger water, once it evaporates off your skin, it has that warming effect as well.

And so it’s this idea of keeping the body warm after birth. And so this is what I mean, like you have to go deeper. Just like you said, it’s not just a, oh, after birth you don’t wash. Ugh, that’s a bit gross and unhygienic. It’s like, well, no, like look at it through the lens of back in the day, it was probably much safer not to do that.

And so these old practices can be utilised in the modern way. It’s possible to do both. You can sit into that intersection of how do we use these ancient practices with respect, but how can we also bring them into a modern context? There is a really famous book written by an Australian Chinese woman about confinement, and there’s a funny moment where she talks about having avocado toast, which of course is not a traditional Chinese thing.

It’s very Australian, but that is how you use it in the context of, you know, if you are in a western country and you might not have access to a lot of these traditional things, how can you still have nutrition in your body? How can we do this in an appropriate way?

Le’Nise Brothers: Right.

Lexi Elven: And so, yeah, I think it is that case.

Like you said, just go a bit deeper and work with someone to really understand what it might mean.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah. Confinement. I absolutely love, I love the idea of this, and I did something like a very, very light version of it where my mum came over as well after I gave birth. I had a really difficult birth and she came over and she just kind of took over and she cooked for me.

She just did everything I needed. people share a lot online and you hear these stories where, mothers or mother-in-laws, they’ll come in and they’ll do everything for the baby, but the mum gets left aside. I just felt, remember just feeling so held

Lexi Elven: Yeah.

Le’Nise Brothers: By her. And, and I just feel like it was such a privilege.

She ended up being here for a month and it was just incredible because I really had the time and space to heal.

Lexi Elven: Mm.

Le’Nise Brothers: And when she left, I remember feeling like, oh my gosh, I don’t know how I’m going to do this. I’m

Lexi Elven: doing it on my own.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah. I remember

Lexi Elven: that feeling so vividly.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah. It just makes me think about, again, of how much we need community.

And, you know, in western culture it’s so individualistic and this idea of confinement and the practice of confinement is so community based. Like, how can we help a, a new mother, a new parent, move through this really tough early days. Yeah. Wow. And so your mum, she did this training.

Like, for me, that’s such a huge act of love, you know?

Lexi Elven: Yeah, it really is. And it really goes to show that I’m not dissimilar to my mum because whilst we were doing confinement, one of the things we practiced was baby massage. And I loved doing that with my boys. It was such a great bonding moment. And I loved it so much that I got myself qualified.

And so I think it we’re not dissimilar, we’re, we’re very similar in that sense, but it was such an act of love. And my mum is not interested for being a confinement woman for other people. She’s like, no, I just got myself qualified so I could look after my, my grandchildren. And she did such a amazing job for both.

And I, but I do remember this because my mum would wake up, do all the cooking, all the cleaning. And like I said, growing up in Hong Kong, my mum was like working as this high powered producer in advertising. She wasn’t really the domestic mum. Um, and, and so seeing my mum do this, wake up early, do the cooking really, that was actually out quite outside of her nature when I was growing up.

So I was really witnessing her just showering us with this abundance of love. And it’s, and in Chinese, you know, in Chinese culture, we do talk about this. We may not, we don’t have the word I love you in the same sense in English, like we actually use it in English ’cause that, that doesn’t translate in ours.

But it is food, it’s acts of cooking food, peeling an orange, making sure there’s, there’s nothing on the orange when you’re peeling it. Peeling peaches like every fruit that maybe people might not peel, Chinese people peel and that is their act of love. Yeah.

Le’Nise Brothers: And I want to talk a little bit now about your wider menstrual experience because you filmed this video and posted on Instagram and this was around endometriosis awareness month, and you talked about your experience. Can we rewind and talk a little bit about, we talked about your first period, and then can you talk about your experience of your period as you went through your teenage years and then beyond, and then how that led to your experience of endometriosis and then how that led to your diagnosis.

Lexi Elven: So when I was growing up, I would say I had a pretty easy ride with my period at the time, I never really complained about them being painful. I don’t remember, I don’t remember. We all had those accidents where someone, and often another girl in school would run to you and be like, take my cardigan and wrap it around your waist.

So we’ve all experienced those moments, which I think actually is really common. I don’t see that as outside of the typical. I had friends who would complain about this pain and it was so debilitating that they couldn’t do pee, they couldn’t do anything. And I remember being like, oh gosh, I really, I don’t have that experience at all.

And I felt really bad that they were going through something that was so vastly different to me. My period I would say was relatively light but erratic. I’d never had it in a regular way. And it was only once I was in my early twenties and I was on the contraceptive pill that my periods became regular in any way.

Because the pill forces you to have those gaps and forces you to have your period at a specific time. So it wasn’t my body doing that. It was very much the medication I was taking. And I came off the pill after being on it for what must have been a, a huge amount of time. Like I must have been on the pill for I want to say eight years, which is a, a long time to be on a contraceptive pill.

And I came off it when we just wanted to explore having children. And it was only after I had my firstborn who has recently turned nine. So this is over nine years ago now. That’s when my periods post birth were really completely different to what I remember them being like in that they were so heavy.

I remember at that point in my life I was, I had moved onto moon cups or a cup system, which so much, in my opinion, so much better. And, uh, I would go to the shops and it would be like, this is the box that you need if you have not given birth, and this is the box that you need if you have given birth. And I would like, what?

I just didn’t understand why there was this difference. And I opened the box for, if you haven’t given birth, it was this tiny, tiny cup. It was like, okay, fine. I definitely am not in this category anymore. But I found that even with the larger cup, it wasn’t enough. I was constantly overflowing. The bleeding was a lot more than I remember it.

And I even went through this whole process of trying different brands, specifically because the volume was so much more than I was used to, and then much more painful and then really terrible cramps leading up to it. Mood swings, like it just seemed like post-birth. My period was a completely different beast.

Le’Nise Brothers: Mm.

Lexi Elven: And I then, as I mentioned in the video, I started passing out, and this, this would happen the first one or two days of my period and when I needed to take a poo, and it was in this process of sitting on the toilet about to pass my bowels. And the pain would come from the bottom of my feet all the way up to my head.

And the only way I can describe it is it felt like a contraction, a really painful contraction in labour. And that pain would make me pass out. And this would constantly happen to the point where I would hit things on the way down. I would, I’d wake up on the floor with a cut on my eyebrow or a lump like an egg on my head.

And I’d very frustrated because I knew something was wrong with my body. Like this is not just a period now, this is fundamentally wrong and I really shouldn’t be passing out from the pain, let alone waking up on the floor. And it was so clear to me that it was related to my cycle. ’cause this only happened day one or two of my period didn’t happen any other time.

And I would go to doctors and I’d try and explain this and they’d all look at me completely clueless. They had no idea what was happening. And you feel quite lost because deep down I’m like, well, there’s clearly something wrong. I know there’s something wrong. I know it’s to do with my period. I think it might be endometriosis.

But again, it’s such a, it’s really not a studied thing at all. And it’s really hard to find people that have the same symptoms as you. And it was only when I spoke to my friend who was diagnosed with endometriosis, and I said, oh, this thing is happening to me. And she just looked at me and she was like, Lexi, you are passing out every time, day one or two when it’s your period.

Like you definitely have endometriosis. And I remember thinking, you are the only one who thinks this. Like every doctor I’ve spoken to or gynaecologist, they’re not taking me seriously at all. And, and I think that’s also really unbelievably frustrating because

Le’Nise Brothers: mm-hmm.

Lexi Elven: You may not think I have endometriosis, but the fact that I am passing out and hitting things on the way down is so abnormal.

Like, this is not how anyone should be living their life.

Le’Nise Brothers: No.

Lexi Elven: From a personal point of view. So un glamorous. If I actually died in that scenario, I don’t want my obituary to say she was sitting on the toilet and she just knocked herself out and died. Like I just couldn’t bel I, it was a farcical experience to be so angry, to be in pain, to have this embarrassing thing happen and no one, no one was worried.

And I think that’s what I was so frustrated with. And I did mention in the video that I just got to the point where last year before New Years, so this was New Year’s Eve, 2024, I passed out and I ended up waking up on the bath. ’cause I had clearly passed out over the bath. And I woke up with this lump in my head and I was irate because this is still happening.

And I’d been going and taking all of these tests and scans and nobody’s confirming anything. And I’m still passing out that I just went on Reddit and I went on an endometriosis forum, and I just ranted, like I was just so angry. And Reddit of all places is not somewhere where I would recommend getting medical advice.

But actually in the forum there were doctors in the NHS and they were asking the important questions and they were saying, well, we think it might be this and this. Go to your doctor, say exactly this phrase and that kind of will escalate you up the list a bit. And then through Reddit I was put in touch with a new GP who was a man, and he looked at me and said, are you okay with me trying to find out what’s wrong?

We think it might be endometriosis, but again, it’s really, really hard for us to diagnose. But you know, if you’re happy for me to try and help you, uh, you know, we, we’ll work on it together. And then that’s really the path that led me to finally getting a diagnosis. But I would say even when I got my diagnosis up until that point and 10 minutes before my diagnosis, it was still no, no, we don’t know what’s wrong.

You’d can’t see anything. Yeah. It was just really, it’s quite shocking and upsetting.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah. So I know people listening will be thinking, they’ll probably be screaming at me to ask you this question. I have to ask, what was the phrase that you were told to, to use by the doctors in Reddit?

Lexi Elven: So the exact phrase that the GPs, uh, in Reddit said was, you need to tell your GP that you are experiencing a type of defecation syncope. And this is a reflex where there’s a sudden drop in your heart rate, maybe by blood pressure, maybe by blood flow to the brain, but it causes dizziness and sweating.

And then you have to faint. So it can also be known as a situational syncope or a vasovagal faint. And so that’s what I was experiencing. And in terms of what happened when I finally got the diagnosis,

Le’Nise Brothers: Can I just jump in here? Yes. So what I find outrageous about this, and I’m working in this space for so long, I shouldn’t really have the capacity to be outraged because I’ve seen so many, I’ve seen so many stories and heard so many stories like yours.

But the fact that you had to talk to them about fainting, syncope, meaning fainting.

Lexi Elven: Hmm.

Le’Nise Brothers: Rather than, and that’s what took, got them to take it seriously rather than your experience of the pain and having such a painful experience that it caused you to faint. I just find that completely outrageous.

Lexi Elven: It’s outrageous.

Not only you should be taken seriously without the fainting full stop. You should be believed when someone says, this is really painful and not be dismissed. 100%. And we know what that, what that is like in the birthing world as well. When people say that the whole experience of birth is really painful, they might need to escalate pain medication.

They are often not believed. Like, oh, you’re just being dramatic.

Le’Nise Brothers: Hmm.

Lexi Elven: Um, and that is a huge frustration. But not only that, the fact that I was fainting and without me having to use this phrase, which was given to me by these doctors from Reddit, they still weren’t taking me seriously. So even though I didn’t have the language to describe, this is what I, this is the medical thing that is happening to me.

The fact that I am passing out from pain is so insane to me that this is not normal. Of course, it’s not normal and yet I still wasn’t getting anywhere. And so it’s doubly frustrating. No, of course you don’t need to be, don’t be like me and passing out when you’re trying to take a poo and that’s when people take you seriously.

Like they still weren’t taking me seriously. And that is extremely frustrating. And of course you are angry ’cause you are seeing it again and again and again. And that is so disappointing.

Le’Nise Brothers: And what was a timeline from you starting to experience these really painful day one and day two menstruation to you then getting this language to go to your doctor and then getting the diagnosis?

Lexi Elven: So from post first child, so within eight years, over those eight years, I have been fainting on and off nonstop. Probably five really bad ones where I’ve woken up injured. Other times when I’ve just woken up on my thighs, which I want to say is such a wild scenario, that whenever I know I am on day one or two of my cycle and I know I need to go to the bathroom, I will sit in a specific way and in my head I’m thinking of on an aeroplane where they’re like, brace, brace.

Like sit in a way where if you do pass out, you land on your legs, which is amusing to me, but also darkly funny. I think I was dealing with a lot of the, this wildness of this whole situation ’cause it take, it took me what, over eight years to get this diagnosis that I had to be funny about it in my head.

Like I had to create these funny moments, but it’s not funny, right?

Le’Nise Brothers: No.

Lexi Elven: But I would wake up on my thighs and when I had my second baby, I had an experience where I, I did pass out shortly after giving birth. And again, I was, I had a weird bleed and it was very early on and I actually didn’t get my period, but I remember thinking, oh, this is very unfair.

My baby’s only three months and I’ve ever got my period already. And, and I was on the bathroom and I woke up on my legs and my mum was with us at the time and I went downstairs and my mum looked at me and she went, you are deathly white. Like you look awful. And I said I’m quite sure I just passed out and I woke up on my legs.

And when you do pass out, you have no concept of time. So I, when you go see these doctors, oh well how long did you pass out? Well, I have no idea. I literally went to the bathroom and I woke up on my legs. I think I passed out ’cause I have no memory of sitting upright and then being on my thighs. And at the time with my second born, it was actually the pandemic.

He was born in 2020. And when we went into A&E couldn’t bring him with me because they saw that as a safety risk and he needed to be taken home. He was exclusively breastfed at the time. And I was like, well, how is he going to be fed? And they’re like, well, they’re just going to have to feed him with a bottle at home.

I was like, okay. He’s not, he’s not done that before. Um, and I waited in hospital for absolutely ages. And so that was 2020. That was like six, six years ago. And I’m still, you know, through this whole process, I’m still passing out. And I would say that some of the gynaecologists and some of the nurses I was meeting at the time, some were lovely, some were not.

Some are sympathetic, some are not. I had one woman who just so happened to be like a Singaporean nurse and I was thinking, yes, Asian gods have blessed me with someone who might understand something. And I told her I typically use a moon cup or something like similar for my periods. And she looked at me and she’s like, oh, I’ve never heard of that before.

And I was like, can I change the nurse? This is not helping at all.

Le’Nise Brothers: Can we talk now about diagnosis? So it was quite recent.

Lexi Elven: Very recent.

Le’Nise Brothers: Can you talk about how you actually got diagnosed, the process and how you felt after getting that like official diagnosis?

Lexi Elven: I’m just going to look on my calendar so I really make sure I know exactly when I was.

So it was March 9th, that’s when I was in hospital. So in this whole process I’d been on this waiting list to see the specialist unit in UCLH in London. And I think also because of the backlog due to the pandemic, lots of appointments were constantly being pushed back. And this particular appointment was pushed back many, many months. And in this whole situation, I had also moved cities and I didn’t know what to do because I knew I was going to get this appointment in a specialist unit. But I was now getting further and further away from where this unit was going to be. And when I finally got the confirmation, I went in for my appointment.

The first doctor who saw me was a man. And he was very nice. Did the scan, in the whole process of the scan, uh, it’s a transvaginal scan, so it’s an uncomfortable procedure. Uh, and he started saying things like, oh, we can see some cysts and some fibroids. And in my head I’m thinking, no one said that. So this is all new information.

And I’m thinking, well, maybe what I’m experiencing is fibroids or cysts or maybe something. And as I’m going through this whole process, ’cause you’re, you’re trying to be in your mind whilst this uncomfortable procedure is happening. And then he goes, but they don’t look like anything serious, so I wouldn’t be worried about them.

And then you’re deflated, you’re like, oh, okay. There was this thing that I thought could explain it. Now it’s not that thing. And then afterwards he just said, I’m so sorry, I can’t see anything. And there’s a moment of silence where you are just disappointed again, like this is negative again. I finally made it to the special specialist unit and they can’t see it.

And then he said, let me go grab my consultant to double check. And when the consultant came in, she then went through this whole process. And I would say actually when she was doing her scan, she was a little bit rougher in that I actually think she was trying to seek out the painful points. So she was constantly saying, is this where the pain is?

Is this where the pain is? And if I said yes, she would then delve deeper into those areas. And it was only then that she said, I can see it. I can see two nodules right here. And when she said that, I was like, am I going to cry? Because I didn’t know how to feel ’cause up until that point, literally 10 minutes ago, the man just told me he found nothing.

And now she said, I found it. Here are two nodules.

Le’Nise Brothers: Hmm.

Lexi Elven: So it was this very complicated feeling of being extremely relieved and also finally when I said I had endometriosis in my bum, it was true because actually the nodules were in that lining between the uterus and the bowel. And that’s where, and of course that’s why whenever I was needing to go to the bathroom, that’s where the pressure was being put.

And that’s where the extreme pain was. And that’s why I was passing out.

Le’Nise Brothers: Hmm.

Lexi Elven: So it made sense. Of course, that’s exactly where you would be finding it ’cause that’s where I was really feeling it in my body too. But being not believed and being gaslighted for so long for someone to finally say, that’s it, those are the two nodules.

And seeing it on the screen and seeing these two little nodules and I can’t explain that feeling of relief and devastation.

Le’Nise Brothers: Mm-hmm.

Lexi Elven: I’m extremely relieved that I finally got labelled with the thing that I thought I had. But also it makes me really sad that it took this long.

Le’Nise Brothers: Mm.

Lexi Elven: But the other thing that I mentioned was, I spoke to the first doctor the man who gave me the scan 10 minutes prior who couldn’t find anything.

And I said, could you see what she was talking about when she, she finally showed the two nodules? And he said, honestly, when I was doing my scan, I couldn’t see them at all. But now that she’s found them and I can see them, I agree with her, they are, you know, 100% endometriosis. And so it just goes to show how difficult it is to actually come up on screen.

I also feel that it’s quite frustrating to have a sense that the science is, is so far behind diagnosis because when you go through this whole experience and you know that you are passing out, when you’re on your period, you know, all of this stuff is happening. When you’re on your period, your body is at its worst.

Those one two days that whenever I’ve asked whenever I needed to do a scan or a test, I’ve always asked, should I be doing this when I’m on day one and two of my period? Because I feel like you would get better information. And, and they just say, no, it doesn’t matter. And I just, it’s so untrue. And when you’re reading the papers that are coming out about how people are finally studying period blood, and those one, two days are the most important days when they need to test the blood.

Of course that makes sense. That’s how we feel in our body too. And, and it’s so a step behind where you are reading these papers, but it’s still theoretical. It’s not in practice yet that feels really frustrating that even when they do the tests, they can’t sync it up with when you actually need it the most.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah. But also that frustration that you had a doctor there who despite you saying, so the first doctor you saying, I feel this are you sure? And it took him getting his consultant to, and then her probing deeper to actually verify and you just think how many other people were in that room?

Lexi Elven: Yeah.

Le’Nise Brothers: Who have endometriosis, who had that scan with that doctor who got told Oh no, there’s nothing there.

Lexi Elven: Mm-hmm.

Le’Nise Brothers: And you just, you know, I’ve spoken to women before who’ve that sense of frustration, like I know my body, I can feel,

Lexi Elven: and that’s the difference of two minutes.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah.

Lexi Elven: And that’s the difference of two different scans.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah.

Lexi Elven: And I would say that he was really nice.

Le’Nise Brothers: Mm.

Lexi Elven: And he was really sympathetic and he was actually, I’m so sorry I couldn’t find anything. He didn’t say, this isn’t endometriosis. He did say, I just not found what the issue is. So there was this, uh, understanding that we would continue probing.

Le’Nise Brothers: Okay.

Lexi Elven: Or trying to find out he wasn’t dismissive.

Le’Nise Brothers: Oh.

Lexi Elven: But also I do think it’s their policy to try and find a consultant because he did say consultants can, because they’ve got more experience, can always see more. And I think it’s a good policy for them to have. ’cause I think. It’s, it is definitely, we’re always told as women specifically, you should get a second opinion.

So I do think it’s quite good in the u UCLH process that they bake that second opinion in like,

Le’Nise Brothers: yeah,

Lexi Elven: that’s clearly a policy for them. And thank goodness he did, because if the consultant didn’t come, I would’ve walked away feeling really deflated as well.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah, I just think about like deep infiltrating endometriosis where it can be seen on an ultrasound.

Lexi Elven: Yeah.

Le’Nise Brothers: But it does take that specialist eye and it does take that specialist experience to be able to say, actually this, you know, this bit, it doesn’t look exactly right. And that’s, you know, that’s why, you know, you have, we have these consultants, but what happened next? So they found these two, two nodules.

This is in March, so not that long. Very recent. Very, very recent. So what happened after that?

Lexi Elven: So because of the area that it’s in. And I agreed with the consultant when she’d spoke to me about this because she was talking about, funnily enough, I was also reading about this study as well. So I, I’m not naturally a science nerdy person, but when it’s your own body, suddenly you’re really interested.

And she was talking about this specific size and type of a nodule may not benefit from a lap laproscopy, like actually from shaving it off, the scar tissue that develops that pressure would still exist from the scar tissue in itself and the fainting may not be solved. So she was like, I do actually think that this is a, it completely related to your hormones and your cycle because you are more inflamed during those one and two days.

So she had said, we’re going to put you on POP. So the progestogen only pill, which I wasn’t on before, uh, one of the solutions to my pain before when I was passing out was, oh, we’ll just put you on the combination pill, the mini pill. And that was probably two years prior to me finally getting my diagnosis.

And I remember going in to see the gynaecologist and I said, this is happening. I’m in a lot of pain. And she just went, we’re just going to put you on the pill. And I remember thinking, is this some sort of sketch show? Because that feels like the default answer to any female problem. You could come in with like an arm missing and they might say, do you want to go on the pill?

Like I just felt like it was just, that’s like the standard response. And when I was put on the pill, I was miserable. The hormones were really affecting me, but also I bled nonstop for three months. And what would’ve been really useful at the time is if she had said, the reason why I want to put you on the pill is because we think, your uterine lighting is really thick.

And that’s also why you are bleeding so much. So by making you go on this pill for three months, it will be an exercise of thinning your uterus lining wall. And then you’ll get to much more manageable, not so, not such heavy periods. And hopefully that might result in you experiencing less symptoms. But none of this was said, she just told me to go on the pill and be on it for three months, don’t take any break days.

And so I was, in my mind, I was haemorrhaging every day for three months. I did not stop bleeding. And I was so again frustrated ’cause it’s like, why didn’t you just tell me that that’s why you were doing this? Why do I, again, have to try and research what the result might be and what my body might be experiencing?

Like I am not a medical professional, but I am having to try and look this stuff up because I felt completely unsupported by that gynaecologist at the time. And so fast forward to March where they said, we’re going to put you on the progestogen only pill. They said, this is not going to be like the combination pill.

It’s only going to be progestogen. And the basis for this is we want to try and stop your periods because we think that that might be something that is beneficial for you, for what you are experiencing and the particular area that the endometriosis nodules are appearing. We will try all this for three months, see how you feel.

And then coincidentally, the study on this type of small nodules that you have will also come to conclusion. So we’ll be in a much better place in three months time to kind of see how we proceed with your care. And I will report that having been on POP for over a month now, I do feel good. No mood swings.

I did get a bit of a fake period, which you are not meant to have, but according to the research I’ve done online, it’s quite normal to have that for the first two months. So I really have only been on POP for just over a month. But so far, feeling good in my body, haven’t fainted in the moments that I typically do.

So, so far the hormone treatment is working. And again, it’s this thing where there are many, many types of hormonal treatments and that one type of hormonal treatment might not be working for you. Maybe it’s another one you have to explore. But so far feeling good about the truth so far.

Le’Nise Brothers: That’s a great conclusion in that you were finally seen, you got the diagnosis and now you have doctors who are working with you on your care.

Can we talk a little bit about the yoga side of it?

Lexi Elven: Mm.

Le’Nise Brothers: You know, we’ve talked about the medic medical side of managing endometriosis, but what about yoga as a practice? So you are a yoga teacher, you have your own studio. It’s now a community interest company, um, working in and around Stratford.

Lexi Elven: And I have moved to Bristol now as well, so we’ll probably be working and doing stuff here in Bristol too. But yes, I can talk about yoga. It’s an interesting journey in that I’ve been practicing yoga for a long time and my practice has also changed with my body too.

And I suppose I was thinking about this the other day. When you are first practicing yoga, it’s often very dynamic. It feels, which it traditionally actually shouldn’t be, but it’s like a very strong exercise class. And, and that’s most people’s introduction to it. And then if you go deeper and realise that it’s actually, it’s really a, a spiritual practice with a movement compound.

It’s not in itself a physical practice. It’s, it’s so much more. It’s the way you breathe, the way you eat, the way you hold yourself in company, the way you live your life. So when yoga teachers quite like to say the phrase, you know, it’s also yoga off the mat. But what that means is how to live well, how to honour your body, how to honour the environment that you are in, the food that you’re consuming, the education that you’re receiving.

It’s this co it’s, it’s effectively a way of life. And the yoga component in terms of a physical component does help. And I will say that it has dramatically shifted from something that was very, very physical for me and very strong and dynamic. And it has really softened with time. If you are on whatever stage of your cycle, you may have more energy or less energy.

And so your practice will reflect that too. There are some days where you really want to maybe sweat it out, feel your heart race a bit more, feel the blood pump in your skin, or maybe you want to be softer, you want to lie down more. You want to have a very gentle stretch or movement in your body or even just put a twist in your body ’cause that’s where you are feeling a lot of it.

For me, it was always down my right side and so twisting my body and offering that, that long rest and weight on one side, that’s something more yin like or restorative yoga, it’s very, we call it restorative yoga for a reason. It feels that you are restoring your body instead of forcing yourself into difficult acrobatic things.

So I would say my yoga practice has changed with time, but it’s also evolved with my body and what it needs. And there’s such a plethora of different practices and they can change depending on where you are in your cycle and what you need for it. So.

Le’Nise Brothers: Wow. Yeah.

Is there any tips that you would give someone with endometriosis who wants to, so with endometriosis, we know that things like muscle guarding can be an issue where people are experiencing a lot of pain and they hold in one position and that causes more pain.

Or in your experience, you’ve gone to the bathroom, you’ve passed out due to pain. Are there particular parts of yoga, different modalities within yoga that you feel might guide someone as they come out of that painful experience?

Lexi Elven: I would definitely start with something that is more restful and restorative yoga and yin yoga. And when I say yin yoga, sometimes with yin yoga it can ask you to seek out quite a deep edge and maybe pull back from that. Uh, I teach, as I mentioned before, I teach a lot of pregnancy and I think the most important thing that we share in that sort of class is be at around 70% of your maximum.

And that’s not, everyone’s 70% is different. And what you think you need at 70% now will be different to what you need at 70% later in pregnancy. Your body changes so dramatically. So what might be 70% in your first trimester completely changes and 70% in your latter trimester. But likewise, when you’re in your cycle and when you’re experiencing endometriosis symptoms, you’ll be in different needs.

And I would always say, let’s start at 70%. How do you feel? And what I’m really asking you to inquire is how do you feel in your body? It’s not an exact science, I’m not asking you to find the exact 70% number, but I’m asking you to find that space where there is flexibility to pull back if you need to pull back or push forward if you need to push forward.

I think it definitely in, in the Western mindset when they practice yoga, it’s this idea of overstretching, pushing yourself harder. It’s all about results. It’s all about abs. It’s all about bikini bodies. It’s, it’s actually, yoga is not about that at all. It’s really about reflecting on what you feel like internally and then that can be expressed externally.

And so even the poses that we’re putting ourselves in is to try and help us reach a calmer internal state. It’s not an aesthetic external practice, it’s very much an internal practice. So when you’re going through something like endometriosis where you are constantly like, what does my body feel like?

Where am I feeling the pain? This is all yoga. You are already doing it. You are doing that self-inquiry and then maybe some breath work can help calm your nervous system down. Just slow your mindset, have a bit more space to think and then maybe inquire, do I want to move my body? How do I want to move it?

So, you know, as a, as a teacher, as a guide, everyone is doing yoga. It’s just how can we apply that to the scenario that we need.

Le’Nise Brothers: So you’ve shared quite a lot today. We’ve talked about your endometriosis journey, which you’re still on. But that eight years that took you to when you got your diagnosis in March.

We talked about birth experience, confinement, we talked about Chinese medicine, the cultural aspect there. Thinking about what you’ve shared today, is there any one thought you’d love to leave listeners with today?

Lexi Elven: I shared my story because what I really wanted to express wasn’t so much, I finally got my diagnosis.

It was really to try and reach people out there who like me, felt really confused and lost. Like, you deeply know something is wrong and no one was believing you. And like you say, it took me eight years. I think the average diagnosis time is 10 years for endometriosis diagnosis. So eight years is considered early, but in that process of feeling so confused and so deflated and not listened to, I think I shared my story because I, I so want people to know that you can find out what you need to find out.

It’s very demoralising. The landscape is not great, but you have the tools. And I wanted people to try and persevere when they felt lost. And after I shared that story, people did send me messages behind the scenes to say, I’m experiencing this. Thank you so much for sharing that. And I think above all, I just wanted to share that camaraderie.

The fact that I too deeply understand this. It’s also, you know, these are, it is an embarrassing story. Like I don’t want to share that. I’m trying to who and I’m passing out. Right. But it is important for me to say those things because embarrassment for women I think is also a factor that stops women from trying to seek help.

And don’t be embarrassed. You know, there’s something wrong. You know something’s wrong. And go find the help that you need and find someone new if they’re not helping you. Yeah.

Le’Nise Brothers: Thank you so much for sharing your story, on Instagram, but also telling it to me today. If people want to get in touch, if they want to watch your original video, where can people find you?

Lexi Elven: Um, you can find me at @blithe_yoga. It’s pretty much just a diary of myself, but also the work that we’re doing. I am very much one person trying to run multiple things and I am definitely not going to have four Instagram accounts to do that. So you can just all find me in that one space and if you message me, I’ll respond.

So just keep finding it. But yes, thank you so much for having me. It’s been great.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah, thank you for your time and thank you so much for sharing your story.

Lexi Elven: You’re so welcome. Thank you.

View the post

Period Story · June 11, 2026

Period Story Podcast, Episode 113, Maggie McDaris: Don’t Let Your Ovulatory Self Make Decisions For Your Luteal Self

Would it surprise you to hear that menstruation can be a great time for detail oriented work, and for making great decisions? On this week’s episode of Period Story, I speak to Maggie McDaris, the CEO and co-founder of Phase, a company that helps women align their work with their menstrual cycle.

In this episode, Maggie shares:

The story of her postpartum adenomyosis diagnosis and what she does to manage the condition
The four phases of the menstrual cycle and how less than 40% of women know when they ovulate
The post-ovulation cliff and why she believes the luteal phase gets a bad rap
The generational divide on what productivity means
Why our periods can be a great time to reflect, make decisions and take action on those decisions
Why the follicular phase is a great time for strategic planning and creativity
The influence of testosterone on communication skills
And of course, the story of her first period

Maggie says that it’s very empowering to know how changes in our physiology and hormones impact how we show up every day and understanding this can help us show up as a better version of ourselves.

Thank you, Maggie!

Get in touch with Maggie:

TikTok

LISTEN IN APPLE PODCASTS

LISTEN IN SPOTIFY

SHOW TRANSCRIPT

Le’Nise Brothers: Hi, Maggie. Thank you so much-

Maggie McDaris: Hi, Le’Nise …

Le’Nise Brothers: for c- coming onto the show today. We got all of our Arsenal chat out of the way.

Maggie McDaris: We did.

Le’Nise Brothers: So I want to kick off the show by asking you to tell us the story of your very first period.

Maggie McDaris: Yeah. So I vividly remember it.

So I was 12, so in America, from the US if you can’t tell. And it was over the summer holidays, and I was in between sixth and seventh grade, and it was the Fourth of July, which is a big holiday. There’s barbecues, and pool parties, and fireworks, and I woke up the morning of the Fourth of July and had my period.

And it was such an interesting moment because now with my, like, adult perspective, I can look back on it and see that so much of what I was feeling was, like, all of the sudden this onslaught of the stigma and shame associated with your cycle. I knew what was coming. I had friends who had started their periods.

Like, I wasn’t… There wasn’t anything biologically that I wasn’t prepared for. But emotionally, I was not ready, and I remember going into my mom’s bathroom and crying, and being like, “It’s started. It happened.” Like, I just… And I, I, you know, could have also been hormones. But I, I think in that moment I was so scared, and, and I felt a little vulnerable, and that I don’t think I had prepared myself for that.

It was not my- the physical experience of my first period was not bad at all. It was super, super light. But I did, I went to, we had a, every year we had a massive extended family get-together at my aunt and uncle’s house, and cousins, and there was a pool and a barbecue. And so I didn’t swim. I didn’t know, my early introduction to, like, period care was mostly pads, and I didn’t know how that worked.

And bless my mom, I think she did her best. But so much of what I learned was sort of social kind of osmosis.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah.

Maggie McDaris: And I just remember two feelings. One is, like, this real FOMO of, “Oh, I feel like I’m on the sidelines today because of this thing,” and my 12-year-old self doesn’t know how to process that. And also I remember being terrified everybody was talking about it, that my mom was talking to my aunts and my cousins, and that everybody knew.

And so I think what’s so interesting is a- and mind you, you know, I played sports. Played football competitively, hence getting the Arsenal chat out of the way. And I think I felt my memories, my memories of especially my, my first kind of year of having a cycle was very much tied into shame and also h- how do I navigate this with these things in my life where this is kind of interrupting it?

What am I going to miss out on? The emotional experience for me of my first period, and really the first year of periods, is what still you know, stays with me however many years later.

Le’Nise Brothers: That’s so interesting, because I think you’re one of the first people who have mentioned this kind of emotional side to it, where it sounds like you were very practically prepared.

Maggie McDaris: Yeah.

Le’Nise Brothers: But then when the reality hit you, there was this emotional side that you just maybe you weren’t ready for, you didn’t, it was overwhelming. And, at that young age, it’s a big event.

Maggie McDaris: Yeah.

Le’Nise Brothers: And can you say a little bit more about how that emotional side, it changed over the years, or how you learned to navigate that part of having a period and a menstrual cycle?

Maggie McDaris: Yeah, I think, you know, I’ll be honest, I, I think focusing on the emotional side is coming from a fairly privileged place, because before I had my daughter, my periods were incredibly manageable my entire life. They were regular. They weren’t too heavy. They weren’t accompanied by intense symptoms. And so I think that’s why the emotional response is sort of what sticks out to me, because the physical day-to-day impact was not what I’ve heard, you know, in many of the stories I’ve heard on your podcast which was sort of this immediate onslaught of all these terrible symptoms.

But I think, you know, so much of it was… And again, this was the 90s, early noughts. And I think so much of my preparation around my period, even in the context of the sex ed and conversations I’d had with friends and family, was still sort of shrouded in secrecy. It was, it’s hush-hush, and we sort of, here’s the secret drawer where we keep all the period products.”

And, you know, it was very much something that was kind of swept under the rug that we tolerated, we didn’t really celebrate, and we di- we weren’t really outspoken about. And that environment meant that when it happened to me, all of the sudden I was now subject to, “Oh, this is, this part of you, we don’t talk about this.

We don’t… You know, this is not something that we engage with or we interact with.” Bless all my football coaches, they were all men. They all had no idea what to do, and so they just didn’t talk about it. So it wasn’t something that was really addressed. And so I think I really internalised that this was a part of me, this was a part of being human that was not socially acceptable.

And so my emotional reaction was really a response to that, sensing the stigma. And I think generally, I have a very low embarrassment tolerance. So, like I, I think all of those things culminated to where I felt incredibly emotionally overwhelmed in the early months of understanding what this was like.

I will say, as I learned to tolerate it, I was an early adopter of, like, tampons, you know, the tricks of hiding them up your sleeve, in your pockets, whatever. and because my symptoms were manageable, I wasn’t a super heavy bleeder, right? So, like, leak fear wasn’t really something I dealt with.

As I, I got older, as I realised, “Oh, this isn’t impacting my life in the same ways I thought that it would. Hey, I can now go to a pool party because I kind of understand…” I, I think I, I grew out of some of that shame. But you know, it took, a minute.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah. And that’s so interesting because we live in a culture now, certainly in the UK-

Maggie McDaris: Yeah

Le’Nise Brothers: Where periods are much more widely spoken about. Certainly in London, you know, you see advertisements for tampons on-

Maggie McDaris: Yeah …

Le’Nise Brothers: the sides of buses. But we think back to the ’90s, the 2000s, where it especially depending on where you grew up in, in the US, they were hush-hush, and how you picked up on that shame, like it was like almost came through by osmosis to you.

And-

Maggie McDaris: 100% …

Le’Nise Brothers: the effects of that is just, that’s just so fascinating. And-

Maggie McDaris: Well, I think advertisements are such a good example. In the early nought, a tampon advert was just a bunch of women dancing or doing things.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah.

Maggie McDaris: It never showed the product. It never showed blood. It never talked about absorbency.

It was literally just, “Hey, look, you can go about your life. Oh, and by the way, at the end, this is a tampon advertisement,” right?

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah.

Maggie McDaris: So I think that’s actually a very relevant example of sort of how the conversation has changed quite-

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah …

Maggie McDaris: drastically.

Le’Nise Brothers: You said over time your tolerance changed and, you know, you’ve just grew into it.

Were there any moments where you thought, “Actually, I’m okay with this now. I don’t feel any shame”?

Maggie McDaris: I don’t know if I can, if I can pinpoint a moment. I remember some, in college especially, when you had shared living environments, where all of the sudden– ‘Cause even in high school, I think the conversations I would have with my girlfriends, one, you know, with sports, everything was sort of focused in one direction.

It was, we would easily talk about, like, stress diarrhea before a match, but yet somehow we wouldn’t talk about our periods. But I do think at university, once I was living with groups of women, that experience did a lot to destigmatise things. Because you go, “Oh, wait a minute. This isn’t just me.

This is all of us. This is a shared experience.” And I would say– And, and because at university I was also, you know, in nutrition and dietetics, and I was understanding some of the systemic impacts now of these hormonal changes, and I had more information, I think probably that kind of university-shared living experience was sort of the switch that flipped, where you go, “Not only am I moving away from the stigma and shame, but also, this is half the population we’re talking about.”

More than now, 51%. And, you know, I think some of that, like, feminine rage got triggered a little, where you’re like, “Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Why am I hiding this? Why is she hiding this? Why?” Because you have this, you know– And like I said, living with other women, and now all of a sudden you have the language, and you start catering to each other’s cycles and like, “Oh, you know, someone started their period today.

Okay, we’re going to get the Ben & Jerry’s,” or whatever it may be. Like, you– It became a galvanising experience. Mm. And that was so powerful in kind of lifting the veil of stigma, and then freed me up to go, “Hmm, interesting. Now I’m kind of mad that this was my experience for so long.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah. Yeah. And you mentioned now, you mentioned that your periods changed after you had your daughter.

Can you say a little bit more about that? Yeah.

Maggie McDaris: Um, that’s fun. That’s been a fun journey. So I had my daughter, and from pretty much the moment my periods returned, they were hemorrhagic. I was going through a tampon and a pad in an hour for multiple days in a row. And so the level of bleeding I had was so disruptive to my life, I couldn’t leave the house for, like, two days of my cycle because it was just in- incredibly heavy and intense.

And so for the first couple months after I gave birth, I was like, “Well, this must just be part of the pregnancy recovery process.” And unfortunately, that continued for me for 18 months. And in the process, one, I went back to work at 12 weeks. two, I, unbeknownst to me, within a couple months, had anemia, which then developed into chronic anemia because I could not…

I was bleeding so much every month that no supplementation or dietary changes was getting me back up. So I had to have multiple iron infusions. I lost all my hair and then it took an additional 18 months, so my daughter was three and a half when I got an adenomyosis diagnosis as the root cause of some of this bleeding.

So, you know, it took, I would say, 18 months to get, like, proper medical intervention, and then from there I was on tranexamic acid every month. And I’m incredibly hormone sensitive, so, like, um, Mirena IUDs, birth control aren’t really super viable options for me in terms of the treatment of the heavy bleeding.

So I was just, I just, take tranexamic acid for five days during my cycle. But that still wasn’t dealing with the root cause, and so just six and a half, eight months ago is when I got diagnosed with adenomyosis. And it was, one of those things where I was on doctor number three.

It’s just, it’s that, it’s such a cliched story now, and having listened to your podcast, I hear what a cliched story is, of I had to go to multiple physicians to finally have one of them go, “We’re going to do a 3D scan of your uterus, and we’re going to look at things a little differently. And oh, hey, do you see this layer of tissue right here in between your two muscular layers of your uterus?

That does, that’s not supposed to be there.” And so you just, it, it was, you know, very freeing, and now, In the future I can, I can have conversations around like what long-term management for that looks like. But yeah, and it, it has given me a lot of grace and respect for women who that is, has been their menstrual cycle experience for their entire lives.

Mm. Um, yeah.

Le’Nise Brothers: Well, firstly, thank you so much for sharing that.

Maggie McDaris: Yeah.

Le’Nise Brothers: Can I ask how you’re managing it now? Is it the tranexamic acid that’s helping you during your period? And then is there anything you’re doing outside of that to manage the inflammation?

Maggie McDaris: Yeah. So the biggest thing is inflammation management for me.

And so I am very practically, I take tranexamic acid from day one of my cycle. And again, this is not medical advice. For me, I find if I wait till my bleeding is heavy, I’m already behind the eight ball. So the moment I start bleeding, I have to stay on top of my tranexamic acid.

And even then, the second day can sometimes be a little hairy. But for me, that is how I’m managing, and it’s shortened my cycle significantly. So I’d be bleeding that heavily for, like, seven days, whereas now I’m a solid, like, four- to five-day. Day two can sometimes be tough, but everything else is much more manageable on tranexamic acid.

I don’t love it in terms of, like, just long term. and I have also, I would say definitely in the past kind of two years, started to experience some of the other symptoms of adenomyosis, like a little more pain during my cycle and also during ovulation, just a little more sort of abdominal tenderness, cramping, things like that, which again, because that was not my experience pre-child, I have a very low tolerance for, I’m learning.

So the inflammation management is the hardest part, and I would say my personal- the hardest part about that for me right now is not so much the dietary piece that, you know, with my background of low inflammation diet, it’s fairly accessible to me, given kind of the, the nutritional base that I had.

What I found really difficult is actually my physical fitness routines and how attuned I have to be to how my body is responding to how far I can push it and when. And I wouldn’t even say it’s, um, as simple as kind of training to my cycle, which I know is something that’s talked about a lot with cycle syncing.

It’s more being highly aware of my histamine response and my inflammation response. And so I’ll notice, for example, if when I’m exercising, I get a lot of congestion, or I feel like the day after I exercise, I’m way more fatigued than the volume of exercise should have led to. I’m now very diligent about making changes because those are the early symptoms I used to miss, to where then by the time I get to my period, I’m hyper-inflamed, got super sensitive histamine response, and everything just sort of snowballs from there.

So that’s been, I would say for me, the last 18 months, the thing that I have shifted and connected to that has impacted my experience and my inflammatory kind of response.

Le’Nise Brothers: That is so interesting. So obviously-

Maggie McDaris: Yeah …

Le’Nise Brothers: I have a million questions.

Maggie McDaris: Go for it.

Le’Nise Brothers: The histamine piece is really interesting because I think for the average person who might be listening to this, they might not understand the connection between histamine and inflammation-

Maggie McDaris: Yeah

Le’Nise Brothers: but also the connection between estrogen and histamine. This is a two-part question. So the first part is can you just explain a little bit more about that estrogen, histamine, inflammation connection? And then can you, as a follow-up, can you talk a little bit more about anything you do In the kind of week before ovulation, where we know-

Maggie McDaris: Yeah

Le’Nise Brothers: estrogen and histamine, they rise.

Maggie McDaris: Yeah. Okay, so it’s a little outside of my scope to talk about the mechanism.

Le’Nise Brothers: Okay.

Maggie McDaris: My learnings are more based on my physicians explaining this to me.

Le’Nise Brothers: Okay.

Maggie McDaris: So I don’t want to get… I, I don’t want to go outside of scope. I am, I’m still understanding the relationship between estrogen and histamine.

But what I can tell you is what I do.

Le’Nise Brothers: Okay.

Maggie McDaris: And that is one, is I start taking anti-inflammatories in my late luteal phase. So from about day five out of my cycle, I will take ibuprofen to start to mitigate the inflammatory response. Similarly I will take, uh, allergy meds right now-

Le’Nise Brothers: Okay …

Maggie McDaris: to help support the preemption of the histamine response.

And so I will take those the week before my cycle, and I have found that to be immensely helpful. Um, again, this is not prescriptive. I know another to my, any Americans listening, uh, Pepcid AC, like heartburn, some of the antihistamine heartburn medications have also, there’s early clinical validation of kind of the preemptive use of those before your cycle to help inhibit a histamine overresponse, if you will.

So yeah, but in terms of the mechanism, I’m still understanding it. There’s also sort of some mast cell stuff that’s happening in the mix-

Le’Nise Brothers: Okay …

Maggie McDaris: that again, I’m just, I am it’s super helpful for me to be like, “Here’s all the things I’m learning,” but I can’t explain them ’cause I’m not quite there yet.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah.

Maggie McDaris: But I know that it’s this sort of lovely cocktail of inflammation, histamine response, mast cell response, estrogen hormone dysregulation, and then it all starts again and kind of builds-

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah …

Maggie McDaris: on each other. Yeah … so I’m kind of really in an experimental stage with my own journey to try to figure out what’s working or what will work for me right now.

I don’t love how medicinally supportive that is for me. Like, I don’t love that for basically two weeks of the month, the week leading up to my cycle, I’m taking medication that’s really, I would say an off-label use. And then during my cycle, I’m taking tranexamic acid so that, you know, I’m- I’ve got basically medical management for two months of the week, or two weeks of the month.

I don’t love that. It doesn’t feel super sustainable, but at the same time, we’re kind of in a let’s regulate to the point where we can start to explore some other potential root causes. I can invest in things like tightening up pieces of my diet-

Le’Nise Brothers: Mm …

Maggie McDaris: looking into my gut health, my microbiome health.

It creates a level of regulation that allows me to then start to address maybe some of the root causes.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah.

I think just to add a little bit more to that, what’s really interesting about the estrogen-histamine connection is that estrogen is this hormone that it guides a significant part of our menstrual cycle, along with progesterone, and it rises around the midway point of our period.

And then estrogen is connected to histamine, which is this compound, It’s connected to our immune system. Right now, a lot of people who are listening might be affected by histamine because of pollen in the air, might be taking-

Maggie McDaris: Yes …

Le’Nise Brothers: more antihistamines because of that kind of allergic response.

But because estrogen and histamine are so tightly bound-

Maggie McDaris: Yeah …

Le’Nise Brothers: when estrogen is even slightly higher than it should be, then histamine is higher.

Maggie McDaris: Yeah.

Le’Nise Brothers: And so that point in the menstrual cycle where estrogen is highest right before we ovulate, that’s really interesting based on what you’re describing around your management of the adenomyosis, where-

Maggie McDaris: Yeah

Le’Nise Brothers: you need to be so aware of those points where inflammation ‘ Cause when estrogen is too high, that can lead to an inflammatory response.

Maggie McDaris: Yeah.

Le’Nise Brothers: And inflammation can be high in the menstrual cycle. I … This is just so fascinating to me. It’s … I,

Maggie McDaris: I know, and it, it’s one of those, it’s speaking of female rage, those moments of, like, we, I just feel we are so behind in understanding all of these complex mechanisms.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah.

Maggie McDaris: And especially, listen, as we, as we start talking about, like, hormones in the brain, you’ll hear me say, like, our sex hormones are not just sex hormones. They are multi-system elements that have all of these sort of multifactorial interactions.

Le’Nise Brothers: Mm.

Maggie McDaris: And we have so little understanding of all of it. My base level understanding is that elevated estrogen can inhibit the breakdown of histamine-

Le’Nise Brothers: Yes …

Maggie McDaris: so it leads to sort of a histamine over-storage.

Le’Nise Brothers: Mm.

Maggie McDaris: Again, this is where I’m like, “I’m outside of my scope.” Yeah. So we’ll leave it at-

Le’Nise Brothers: No, but you’re, you’re exactly right

Maggie McDaris: my simplest kind of understanding. You get these sort of chicken and egg conversations, because you have these gynecological issues, like adenomyosis, which impact hormonal regulation, which then impacts histamine regulation.

Le’Nise Brothers: Mm.

Maggie McDaris: But then histamine can increase the production of estro- And so it’s, again and I think we’re at the stage now where we’re not quite sure where to interrupt that circle.

Le’Nise Brothers: Mm.

Maggie McDaris: And so hence the kind of throwing spaghetti at the wall of taking antihistamines, taking anti-inflammatories. Yeah, and again, there are lots of medical contraindications to taking ibuprofen as regularly as I do. If you have any of those, please don’t do it. Yeah. Just throwing that out there as well.

Le’Nise Brothers: Just one more thing to add into this-

Maggie McDaris: Mm-hmm …

Le’Nise Brothers: and then I want to move the conversation on a little bit. But-

Maggie McDaris: Yeah …

Le’Nise Brothers: one thing that has been helpful when I’ve worked with women with adenomyosis, has been antihistamines like quercetin.

Maggie McDaris: Mm-hmm.

Le’Nise Brothers: The research is there around quercetin, and research tells us that it can be as effective as an antihistamine like Pepcid AC.

Maggie McDaris: Mm-hmm.

Le’Nise Brothers: So just something interesting to, to throw in there, because I know that-

Maggie McDaris: Yeah …

Le’Nise Brothers: there can be a lam- long-term impact to taking, uh, antihistamines like Pepcid AC, like taking ibuprofen, where you’re, you know, worried about the lining of the stomach.

Maggie McDaris: And would you recommend, like, medicinal doses, like, in the form of supplements of quercetin versus, like, matcha green tea … I can’t remember what else it’s, where else you’d find it in food, but, like, y- you know, rather than focus … You think there’s kind of a, like- a mega dose, if you will that you need to access

Le’Nise Brothers: I wouldn’t say me- a mega dose.

Maggie McDaris: Maybe not mega dose, but, uh, in, in supplement form- Yeah … right? Kind of the-

Yeah … yeah.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah, I would say that the supplemental form of quercetin can be highly, highly effective.

Maggie McDaris: Yeah.

Le’Nise Brothers: From a food perspective, you were looking at things like onions, red onions-

Maggie McDaris: Mm-hmm …

Le’Nise Brothers: grapes, especially red grapes.

Apples, great source of quercetin. But I’ve seen a lot of success with with the supplement form of quercetin. So I would… No, it’s definitely something that’s worth looking into.

Maggie McDaris: Yeah.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah. Okay. We’re adding all of my- Okay … usual caveats and we’re not working together on a client basis and all of that.

Maggie McDaris: Of course, this is not medical advice. Yes. This is not… Yeah, yeah, no, no, I, yeah, no need. Yeah.

Le’Nise Brothers: So I want to talk about your business because-

Maggie McDaris: Yeah …

Le’Nise Brothers: this is completely in my wheelhouse. It’s all about aligning The way women work with their menstrual cycle.

Maggie McDaris: Yeah.

Le’Nise Brothers: I want to just take a step back and do kind of level set for any listeners who maybe don’t fully understand the phases of the menstrual cycle.

Maggie McDaris: Yeah.

Le’Nise Brothers: Can you just talk about the four phases, and then I’d like you to also say what the biggest misunderstanding you think women have about each of those four phases.

Maggie McDaris: Yeah, absolutely. And I think I, I love that we sort of started on kind of my own journey because, uh, my journey was very informative in why Phase exists.

Le’Nise Brothers: Mm.

Maggie McDaris: Because as, you know, I mentioned kind of my own health struggles, a huge part of my healing journey was a basic understanding of the four phases of the menstrual cycle, how they impacted other areas of my life, not just when I was bleeding and when I wasn’t. Um, and it’s when I started cycle syncing all sorts of areas of my life that I found that to be incredibly instrumental in getting to a point where my health was, uh, was, you know, regulated and on track.

So yeah, so let’s start menstrual cycle 101. Um, it’s really interesting. We give a lot of talks, um, about rethinking productivity, what it means, you know, what does productivity mean in the context of having hormone fluctuations. And I start every talk with, okay, one being, wait, there’s something that’s not just bleeding, and five being, I could teach a course on this.

What is your level of understanding of the four phases of the menstrual cycle? And people live around two and three, uh, where I, I think sometimes especially ’cause you and I operate in this space and we’re in the, the women’s health and the femtech world, we maybe take for granted how much the general population still understands.

Less than 40% of women even know when they ovulate or could recognise when they ovulate, so I think it’s really important, I, I really appreciate that we’re starting here, which is what are the four phases of the menstrual cycle? So phase one of your menstrual cycle is your menstrual phase. So typically, day one of your cycle is the day when you start bleeding.

This is when your body is shedding its uterine lining, and this is when your hormones, kind of the two key players, uh, with what we’re going to talk about today are estrogen and progesterone, but there’s also testosterone, luteinising hormone, fol- follicular stimulating hormone. But all of them are pretty much at their lowest during your menstrual phase.

And this is, you know, when physical energy is going to be low. We’ll get into some of the cognitive stuff in a minute. But really, your menstrual phase, typically days one to five, up to days one to seven it’s the first part of your cycle, and it’s when you’re actively bleeding. Following menstruation is your follicular phase.

So this is when your hormones start to trigger your ovaries to grow follicles that will then become the eggs, that will then become a singular egg that is released during ovulation. This is when your sex hormones start to rise. Estrogen in particular is rising quickly and peaking, near the end of the cycle as you approach ovulation.

And so this is the part of your cycle that sort of gets your body ready to ovulate. And then you have the ovulation phase. Now, because I know there’ll be, there’ll be some people being like, “Ovulation isn’t a phase.” We know. Technically, ovulation is a single moment in time. It is the moment when your ovaries release the egg, or sometimes two eggs.

Hello, fraternal twins. And it is a burst of hormones basically that causes the egg to be released. Estrogen peaks here. It is the highest it is across any other point in your cycle and it peaks right before this happens. Then you ovulate. We talk about the ovulation phase as really the 48 to 72 hours leading up to that, where it’s characterised by your estrogen is still higher than at any other time of the month.

The other thing that happens in the 48 to 72 hours before you release an egg is testosterone peaks, and that becomes really significant actually when we start to talk about your brain and what’s happening cognitively during this part of your cycle. So for our product’s purposes, we actually consider ovulation a phase, and it is roughly 48 to 72 hours, ending, culminating in the moment your body releases the egg.

Then after ovulation, you have your luteal phase Okay. Y-

Le’Nise Brothers: I love the pause there.

Maggie McDaris: This is my, I think this is my life’s work, Le’Nise. And it is justice for the luteal phase.

Le’Nise Brothers: Mm.

Maggie McDaris: The luteal phase is a 14-day, it is actually the most regular, when you, when you get irregularity with your cycles, often it has to do with ovulation timing.

Your luteal phase is kind of the most predictable part of your cycle, and it is 14 days. I refuse to believe that women are resigned to suffering for half of their lives in their menstrual years. Okay? And I think it’s easy, it’s really easy to oversimplify the phases of the menstrual cycle and say, you know, “Me during my follicular phase,” you know, and it’s a meme, and you’re, like, dancing.

And it’s like, “Me during my luteal phase,” and you’re crashed out on the couch. Now there’s a reason the luteal phase has such a bad rap, and we’ll get to that. So what happens is that empty follicle, uh, it kind of triggers your sex hormones to start to produce progesterone. If you break down the word progesterone, it’s pro gestation.

Progesterone is the hormone to prepare your body for pregnancy should that egg it released get fertilised. And so, that rise in progesterone and drop in progesterone is what is responsible for a lot of what’s going on during your luteal phase. But that being said, if you look at the luteal phase, if you, you know, have one of those hormone graphs, you’ll see it’s really quite a bell curve, and there are two parts of the luteal phase that are responsible for its bad reputation.

The first, which this was one of my key learnings as I was learning about this, is what internally we affectionately call the post-ovulation cliff. After you ovulate, your sex hormones bottom out, and I would argue That’s one of the most difficult times of the month for many people because you have such a stark contrast with how you were feeling two days ago and how you feel today because of the delta there in the physical experience.

And then your progesterone slowly starts to rise. Estrogen also rises a bit as well, not near to kind of follicular heights. But y- you get a nice little bell curve. And really, like the eight days in the middle of your luteal phase, in my experience, are delightful. Um-

Le’Nise Brothers: Mm …

Maggie McDaris: we’ll talk, you know, mentally why I enjoy them so much.

And then as you approach your menstrual phase, your hormones start to drop again. Progesterone drops, estrogen drops, everything kind of prepares your body to bleed. Those days a- are typically when many women will experience PMDD, PMS, cramps, all of the negative physical symptoms associated with their cycle.

When we talk about this, we’re going to talk about the brain and all the positives of all the phases.

Le’Nise Brothers: Mm.

Maggie McDaris: I want to add the caveat, like I never want to diminish anyone’s lived experience. Those symptoms, regardless of what’s going on in your brain and whether your verbal fluency is high or not can be debilitating and, and life interfering.

I gave the example earlier that I was bleeding so heavily I couldn’t leave my house. When it comes to work, it doesn’t matter what’s going on in my brain if I can’t leave my house for fear of blood trickling down my leg at any given point, right? So I never want to diminish that lived experience, and if that is what you are experiencing, my PSA is that is not normal.

Please talk to your physician and keep talking to physicians until something changes. Yeah … so there’s that. But that is, that is sort of menstrual phases 101.

Le’Nise Brothers: Well, firstly, thank you. And it was, it’s actually so interesting being on the other side of this, ’cause I explain this all the time. Yeah. So hearing it back I just loved it.

Maggie McDaris: Ah. Good.

Le’Nise Brothers: That post-ovulation cliff that you mentioned is so interesting, because you do hear women talking about how ovulation is supposed to be this really amazing time, and why do I feel like I do right before my period starts? And you have people talking about post-ovulation syndrome-

Maggie McDaris: Yes

Le’Nise Brothers: Which is really interesting. So that’s just given me a bit of food for thought to explore that a little bit more. So we’ve done this level set, and now I want to ask you about the productivity.

Maggie McDaris: Yep.

Le’Nise Brothers: talk a little bit about productivity and the menstrual cycle.

And perhaps, again, what is the most surprising thing that you’ve learned through building out your business and focusing on this, this topic?

Maggie McDaris: Yeah. So one of the first surprising things, which maybe shouldn’t be that surprising, is that, when you use the term productivity, That means something very different to different people.

Le’Nise Brothers: Mm.

Maggie McDaris: And we, uh, it was really interesting. We did a lot of focus groups to to dig into, okay, what does productivity mean to you as a woman? And we found two answers that were the most common, right? So answer number one is productivity is output. It is, how much am I getting done? How quickly am I doing it?

How much can I get done? It’s performance, right? It is, it is how can I maximise my performance? And then on the other side, you have productivity defined more in the realm of efficiency. How can I get the most done as efficiently as possible in a way that is less draining, in a way that is sustainable?

And I’ll give you a guess, but there was a real age delineation between those two answers.

Le’Nise Brothers: That-

Maggie McDaris: What would you guess?

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah. I, you know what? That’s really interesting, ’cause that was going to be my next question. Because the first part of what you said, that feels very millennial to me.

It feels very girl boss. It feels very, like, hustle, work, very actually male aligned.

Maggie McDaris: Yeah.

Le’Nise Brothers: And then the second part is, feels very Gen Z. Very like, I just want to do what I need to do and be in the best way possible.

Maggie McDaris: Interesting. So it’s the opposite.

Le’Nise Brothers: Whoa. Okay.

Maggie McDaris: So it’s the younger, I would say, Gen Z ,Gen Z to early millennial, Zillennial- Yeah

who were very much it’s about how much I can get done, how much I can get done in a day. It was elder millennials to Gen X who were, it’s about efficiency, it’s about preventing burnout, it’s about a more holistic, systemic way of doing things. And my hypothesis to that is you don’t really… preventing burnout isn’t really a motivator until you’ve experienced burnout.

Le’Nise Brothers: Mm. Yeah.

Maggie McDaris: And so if you’re a young woman who still has been told, like, your period’s kind of something you have to deal with and ignore, and this is what… You know, and you just kind of crank on with things, versus women who don’t really have the luxury of just cranking on with things.

Because as you get older, also your life responsibilities tend to grow. Your likelihood for having a family, having responsibilities outside of work, you know, even having partners, all of that shifts your, your ability to… You need to do more with less, and so efficiency becomes more important. But also, as you get older, your risk for burnout increases, or you have either experienced it or you have come close to it.

And so that was really interesting because we talk about Phase as a productivity product. And so what we need to do is both. Because I’ll be honest, I have experienced burnout.

Le’Nise Brothers: Mm.

Maggie McDaris: And I’m still motivated. I’m a performer. I’m an optimiser. I’m still motivated. I want to understand the things that are going to get me to where I want to go faster and better.

And I want to do that in a way that means I can continue to do those things for a long period of time and show up in other areas of my life as a healthy version of myself. I’m kind of a nice both/and.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah.

Maggie McDaris: And so it was really important as we were building Phase that we spoke to both and that we made sure to frame the product in a way that where we could define productivity in a variety of ways and still feel confident saying that Phase is going to help you be more productive.

Le’Nise Brothers: That’s really fascinating.

Yeah. I’m loving this conversation.

Maggie McDaris: Yeah, it’s been fascinating for us to learn because I think, we had guesses around how people would use the product, how, how they would, perceive productivity, what they wanted in something like this. What, what we found was that, The majority of our active users really want something that is going to help optimise in, in, within the context of that more traditional definition of productivity, of like really I want to get some more done.

I want to feel good while doing it. And so, I feel good about the version of the product we have because I’ve I can confidently say we do both. It’s a both and. In working in alignment with your cycle-

Le’Nise Brothers: Mm-hmm …

Maggie McDaris: two things are true. One is you are optimising your day.

If you are choosing the task to work on that match most closely to where your brain is, to, to what’s happening physiologically in your body, that’s going to improve your output. You’re going to be able to do more, and you’re going to be able to do it better at its core. And it also means you’re not working in misalignment.

It means you’re not expending the energy and the, the cognitive stress to try to do things that feel really hard for you that day.

Le’Nise Brothers: Mm-hmm.

Maggie McDaris: And so we’re doing both. We are able to improve output, but also over time, if you’re, if you’re working in alignment day after day after day, we are having an impact on things like burnout risk because you’re not overexerting yourself constantly to reach the level of output you think you need to be doing.

Le’Nise Brothers: There are two points in our menstrual cycle that I want to ask you a little bit more about.

Maggie McDaris: Yeah.

Le’Nise Brothers: So the first one is menstruation. Yes. And culturally, we’ve been told, and I know this is dependent, as you mentioned before-

Maggie McDaris: Yeah …

Le’Nise Brothers: on individual experience. But culturally, we’ve been told that this is the time in our cycle where we will just feel terrible.

We won’t want to do anything.

Maggie McDaris: Yeah.

Le’Nise Brothers: And when I talk about this, and when I do workshops on this I surprise people when I talk about this time in our menstrual cycle and what actually we’re able to do, and the tasks that we can be most aligned with at this time.

Maggie McDaris: Yes.

Le’Nise Brothers: And then-

Maggie McDaris: Yeah. Go-

Le’Nise Brothers: And then, okay, let’s go, let’s start there.

Let’s start there.

Maggie McDaris: Yeah. Well, and, and I’d love to, if we could, you know, I, I can kind of go through phase by phase and talk about what’s happening in our brain, what’s available to us, why we sort of say here’s the strengths. Here’s the things you’re, you’re most aligned to accomplish during this time.”

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah.

Maggie McDaris: Let’s start with the menstrual phase. So with your menstrual phase, you’ve got obviously estrogen and progesterone are pretty much at their lowest, um, and that is going to correspond in a dip in physical energy. It’s going to correspond in a dip in motivation. We’ll talk about, as I talk through some of the other phases the relationship between estrogen and dopamine-

Le’Nise Brothers: Mm-hmm

Maggie McDaris: and how as estrogen rises, dopamine activity, dopamine receptor sensitivity also rises.

Le’Nise Brothers: Mm-hmm.

Maggie McDaris: So motivation feels harder to access when estrogen is low. We don’t have enough time in this podcast today to talk about what that means for, like, ADHD, for example. Um, but everyone with ADHD will go, “Yes, I feel my hormone fluctuations more.”

Yes. What’s happening during the menstrual phase, there’s a couple kind of key things. One is you have a rise and a shift in the gray matter density in your left inferior parietal lobe. You don’t need to remember that. But what you may need to know is that is the part of the brain that’s involved in distinguishing between perspectives.

Le’Nise Brothers: Mm-hmm.

Maggie McDaris: It’s the part of the brain that’s involved in interpreting nuance and in recalling past memories, so, like, episodic memory, recalling details. Additionally, and this is my favorite part about the menstrual cycle, your left and your right brain are communicating more efficiently during this time of the month than they are at any other time of the month. So that means your analysis, your critical thinking, your logic is able to speak fluently with your creativity, your intuition, the type B areas of your brain.

And so what this means is that one, that left parietal lobe activation, you can look back on past experiences, and you can recall them with detail, and you can interpret nuance and go, “Huh, here’s what worked. Here’s what didn’t.” So things, uh, you know, to kind of simplify it, reflection, analysis, this is a really great time of the month to do that.

But because of that cross brain integration where your left and right brain are talking so well, it also means you can take this analysis, and you can make it very actionable. Very practical, very tactile. It’s, you can go reflect. Okay, what does that mean? Here’s what went wrong.

Here’s what went right. Here’s the changes we need to make as a result of that.

Le’Nise Brothers: Mm.

Maggie McDaris: And so what I love is that, you know- Our bodies during this season do, they do need more physical rest than other phases, and it’s so great because the cognitive strengths that we have access to are, I would say, a quieter form of productivity.

It’s still productivity. It’s great time for, like, editing, organising, detail-oriented work, auditing systems and processes, conducting post-mortems, identifying small improvements to carry forward. It’s a really important and powerful time. It’s a productivity pause, not for the purpose of rest even, but for the purpose of reflection-

Le’Nise Brothers: Mm-hmm

Maggie McDaris: so that you move forward with, in greater strength, basically.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah.

Maggie McDaris: And I love this part of the cycle for that reason.

Le’Nise Brothers: people are always surprised when I talk about it like that, as in you can make really great decisions at this time of your cycle.

Maggie McDaris: Yeah.

Le’Nise Brothers: And they’re like, “But it’s my period. It’s really bad.” No. But if you separate what’s happening physically and focus on what’s happening cognitively-

Maggie McDaris: Yes …

Le’Nise Brothers: you might actually think, “Actually, my, I was a bit more clear-headed without the influence of estrogen,” which I sometimes call it the hormone of accommodation, where, especially when it’s at, at its peak, you might say yes to things where maybe you should have said no.

Maggie McDaris: One of the, like, my key takeaways when I give our rethinking productivity talk is do not let your ovulation self make decisions for your luteal and menstrual self. Okay? Your ovulation self is a yes man.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah.

Maggie McDaris: Your ovulation self’s going to be like, “I can do that, of course.” Your luteal and follicu- or, uh, menstrual selves are going to be like, “Excuse me, why did you do that?”

Yeah. “That was a terrible decision.” Yeah, so I’d love, if it’s all right, I’ll kind of go through each of the phases of the cycle-

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah …

Maggie McDaris: and the juicy productivity bits, the cognitive insights, that accompany that phase. I like to refer to your follicular phase as the on-ramp to the month, even though it’s technically the second phase of your cycle.

This is when estrogen is obviously increasing steeply and peaking at the end of this phase, and that rise in estrogen is really what is responsible during your follicular phase for the cognitive and emotional and energetic shifts that you’re going to experience during this phase. So yes, you’re going to get a surge in energy, especially mental energy, but you are also going to get that surge in motivation.

So I referenced it before. Estrogen is directly linked to dopamine, and as estrogen rises, dopamine activity, dopamine recep- receptor sensitivity goes up, which means motivation is easier to access. So you’re going to have energy, but you’re also going to feel that, like, “Get up and go. I can accomplish a lot today.”

Estrogen’s impact on the prefrontal cortex and the hippocampus support big-picture thinking. The technical term is like cognitive flexibility, but it’s basically you can synthesise a lot of information at once. It’s why I often feel sometimes the follicular, and especially late follicular, early ovulation, it’s almost a little manic up there.

Ooh. It’s a lot. It’s a lot going on. A lot… You’ve got a lot of synapses firing because they’re taking in a lot of information at one time and digesting that. So the other thing is estrogen’s relationship to cortisol. So estrogen makes you stress resilient. Very practically, this means back-to-back meetings, work-related travel, days that feel long or hard or intense, your resilience to those days is going to be higher during this part of the month.

So very practically, your follicular phase is a really good time for strategic planning. So that kind of, I like to say high-level thinking, 40,000-foot thinking. It’s not a great time to be in the details. It– like I said, that kind of high mental energy can sometimes lack a little focus. So it’s a good time for big-picture thinking, for expansive thinking.

It’s a really good time for creative problem-solving. Your creativity is at its highest during your follicular and, um, ovulation phase as well. So if you have any activities requiring creativity, so whether that’s brand development or content development or solving a creative problem, launching things.

So because of that sort of ability to feel easily motivated, it’s a great time to start stuff. It’s a great time to launch prototypes, to launch projects, and then take on any, you know, work-related travel, meetings, et cetera. So then you get your ovulation phase, which again, really we’re talking two to three days.

It’s everything you get in your follicular phase and then some, basically. Um, it is characterised by, you know, estrogen peaking. The and then some is that peak in testosterone. So with that peak in testosterone, you get a very significant increase in verbal memory and verbal fluency. It’s your communication skills.

During ovulation, your ability to communicate well, communicate clearly, is going to be peaking. And what’s interesting is that rise in estrogen, it does activate some of the, I would say, like EQ emotional centers of your brain. And so what that means is that ovulation, you have the right words to say, and also you can kind of interpret how they’re landing.

Le’Nise Brothers: Mm-hmm.

Maggie McDaris: So it’s a really good time for high-stakes conversations, for pitches, for presentations, but also, like, some of the hard high-stakes conversations, things like negotiations or like feedback.

Le’Nise Brothers: Appraisals.

Maggie McDaris: Yeah. Performance reviews, things where you want to say the right thing, and you want to say it well, and you want to be able to pick up on how it’s landing.

That’s a really good thing to schedule during ovulation, business development activities you know, high visibility moves. Here’s the two warnings I have with your ovulation phase. The first we’ve already addressed. Don’t let this person make decisions for you for the next two weeks. You will regret it.

The other is which we already talked about as well, is the cliff. So when you’re scheduling to optimise your ovulation phase, I always caution, aim for early ovulation to sched- late follicular, early ovulation to schedule these things, because what you don’t want is to miss it. And now all of a sudden you have hard conversations, really high-impact stuff, in the middle of your post-ovulation cliff.

That’s tough. So it is a bit of a tightrope in this, you know, particular scenario, and everyone’s going to experience this differently, right? Okay. And then finally we have ovul- or luteal, and then I’ll stop talking. Yeah. And let you ask some questions. Eh, I’ve already gone on record, justice for the luteal phase.

So progesterone, it is the leading hormone in your luteal phase, specifically this, like, nice meaty middle bit of your luteal phase. Progesterone enhances activation in your prefrontal cortex, that’s your judgment zones and your temporal lobes. It supports reflective and deliberate thinking. Your amygdala is also very activated here, and if you’re familiar with what the amygdala, amygdala does, it is your emotional center.

It is what is reactive to emotional stimuli. And so, yes, what that means is during your luteal phase, you might feel a little more emotionally reactive. Every woman’s like, “Uh-huh.” I would ask you to reframe that as you are emotionally responsive- … and you are emotionally attuned. Because the same things that make you feel a little emotionally reactive, that’s really just the underbelly of emotional intelligence.

Your emotional center is being activated. And so during this part of the cycle- It’s a really good time for making, I would say, like, emotionally driven decisions, gut-driven decisions, instinctive decisions. It’s also a really good time for detail-oriented type tasks. So because estrogen is not as high here, that motivation is harder to access.

So you need to tap into sometimes these sort of motivational hacks, and what that means is that when you do finish something, that dopamine response is going to feel much better. It’s going to feel heightened-

Le’Nise Brothers: Mm …

Maggie McDaris: during this part of your cycle. So it’s a good time, I always like to say, to, like, build the dopamine snowball, where start with your to-do list.

Start with something small that’s analytical. Send that email. Do that thing. Get that dopamine response going, and then ride that wave. Your focus, your ability to laser in on something is also highest at this part of the month. So I find my mid-luteal is my favorite time of the month just in general.

Le’Nise Brothers: Mm.

Maggie McDaris: And I shock a lot of people when I say that. I mentioned kind of the, the high energy of, you know, your follicular and your ovulatory phases. That gets exhausting for me. I love to just, like, sit down and crank some stuff out-

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah …

Maggie McDaris: and it feels really good, and I feel really grounded in my luteal phase in a way that I think if people were to let themselves, they would also experience.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah.

Maggie McDaris: So okay, I’ll stop talking. The summary is launch stuff during follicular, make that push for it in ovulation, wrap stuff up in luteal-

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah …

Maggie McDaris: and then reflect on it in menstrual and start the cycle all over again.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah, I love that, and thank you so much for that explanation. I think there’ll be a lot that you’ve shared that’ll be surprising to people, and I love what you’ve done in reframing the menstrual cycle, and I think that’s really powerful. When I talk about this stuff, when I give workshops on these, this topic, I always start by, “Let’s reframe.

Approach this with an open mind, and let’s reframe,” especially that late luteal. I like to talk about it as this kind of get stuff done, you know-

Maggie McDaris: Yeah …

Le’Nise Brothers: where you, you’re not troubled by the, estrogen and accommodating and saying-

Maggie McDaris: Yeah …

Le’Nise Brothers: yes. It’s just about this energy that you can tap into, and I love the way that you’ve explained this.

We have time for one more question, hopefully. So you’ve explained this in a really structured way, and what I’ve seen a little bit online specifically on TikTok, is this pushback against cycle syncing and talking about it as a kind of form of biological essentialism and saying that it assumes that everyone is the same.

And you have thrown in caveats, you know, to say that we will experience this differently. This is a kind of framework. It’s not a template. Can you just say a little bit more about that?

Maggie McDaris: Yeah. Yeah. Here’s the reality. Your menstrual cycle is one physiological process that is impacting how you show up today.

Spoiler alert, hope I can say it, say this publicly, we’re incorporating sleep chronobiology and circadian biology into the Phase app because the two cycles are incredibly linked, they’re directly linked, and if you have a really bad night’s sleep, especially in your luteal phase, it’s going to impact how you show up at work a little more than the luteal phase on its own, right?

We know this is one tool in the toolkit. But just because it’s one tool, should we forgo it? And something I’m really passionate about is when it comes to narratives around our cycle, I always ask the question of where did that start and who did it serve? So when you talk about being emotional during a certain part of your cycle, who wrote that narrative?

Le’Nise Brothers: Mm.

Maggie McDaris: And was it women? ‘Cause I would argue it wasn’t. And I think this is one way we can start to kind of take our power back a little. We get to be the ones to write the narrative around how our cycle impacts us. And so, in terms of the biological essentialism, what I’ll say to that is, I think it is very important and empowering for us to know how our physiological symptoms are impacting how we show up every day.

Your hormones are a part of that. Your nutrition is a part of that. Your sleep is a part of that. I would argue we need to know all of it. So let’s start here. And when you look at, especially in this world of biohacking, who’s leading that conversation right now? It’s not women. And as a result, we get women saying, “Well, this is biological essentialism, but I will go cold plunge.”

And so and, and, and that’s really hard for me- Yeah … because I go, “Oh, but cold plunging research is mostly centered on men, and, and, and while it’s not as black and white as it’s not good for women, women need it to be colder, we need it longer, and honestly, a sauna’s better for us.” So let’s, I think it, it will be a complete disservice to women and how we show up differently in the world.

I also think it’s a disservice to those of us who want to show up as the best versions of ourselves. Because me knowing this means I can be a better colleague, a better mom, a better human, and that is incredibly important to me. Can everything go to an extreme? Yes, 100%, but I think it’s important, in a world where most women don’t even know when they ovulate, I don’t think this is the hill to die on to say it’s biological essentialism-

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah

Maggie McDaris: is my-

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah …

Maggie McDaris: 10 cents on that.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah, yeah. And yeah, thank you so much. So obviously, I agree with you. You’ve already shared a little bit about what’s coming up next, but I want to just ask what’s the one thought you’d like to leave listeners with today?

Maggie McDaris: That’s a great question. I think the one takeaway is that all of…

You know, we’ve talked a lot of science-y stuff, and hormones, and cycles, and chronobiology, et cetera. At its core, all of that stuff is what makes you human, it’s what makes you unique, it’s what contributes to a lot of the value you bring, specifically in the context of Phase, to work. And so I think the one takeaway I would bring is make an effort to understand how the things that make you human, and living, and breathing are showing up in those spaces.

And then the kind of secondary follow-up is, in understanding those things, how can you use them, use that understanding to support a more fulfilled version of those things? Everything we’re talking about, it’s, it’s health, and wellness, and, and physiology, and all of that, but at the end of the day, it’s our humanity.

It’s our heartbeat. And so pursue an understanding of those things so that you can be a more fully formed human in every area of your life.

Le’Nise Brothers: Thank you so much. Yeah. I have absolutely adored this conversation.

Maggie McDaris: Me too.

Le’Nise Brothers: It’s always so great to be able to dig into the menstrual cycle, and the phases, and just to kind of pull out even more about this amazing process that our bodies go through.

Where can people find you? Where can they find the app?

Maggie McDaris: Yeah. So you can go to phaseapp.io. Uh, that’s where you can find the app. You can find it in the App Store, as well as we have a web-based version of the app that you can find through our website. So please do that. Um, and you can find me, just Google Maggie McDaris Phase.

You can find my LinkedIn. Whichever search engine leads you, um, I’m pretty easy to find on the internet. But I would say focus on Phase, phaseapp.io. You can find us on LinkedIn. We’re also at, on, uh, Instagram and TikTok at phase_app. So any of those spaces.

Le’Nise Brothers: Thank you so much.

Maggie McDaris: Thank you.

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Period Story · June 4, 2026

Period Story Podcast, Episode 112, Dr Claire Phipps: We Want To Think About The Menopause Transition As Holistically & Joyfully As Possible

Menopause is big news right now and rightfully so. But with all the noise, how do you know what’s right for you? On this week’s episode of Period Story, I’m joined by Dr Claire Phipps, the Menopause GP, who talks me through common perimenopause and menopause myths and misconceptions.

In this episode, Dr Claire shares:

Why she’s only just understanding her menstrual cycle at 48
Why empathy is vital as a doctor
Why moving away from a paternalist model towards patient empowerment is an important part of her work as a GP and menopause trainer
Why the 10 minutes you have with an NHS GP should be the start of the conversation
The difference between perimenopause, menopause and post-menopause
How a holistic approach to menopause may or may not include HRT
Why it’s important to meet patients where they’re at
Why perimenopause can be a time of unmasking for neurodivergent women and the rise of AuADHD diagnoses
And of course, the story of her first period

Dr Claire says the we should try not to be fearful of menopause or pathologise it, but instead, embrace it and move towards a positive natural transition.

Thank you, Dr Claire!

Get in touch with Dr Claire:

British Menopause Society

Women’s Health Concern

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SHOW TRANSCRIPT

Le’Nise Brothers: Hi Claire. Thank you so much for coming onto the show today. I’m really excited to speak to you, to delve into your knowledge of perimenopause menopause. But first, let’s take it all the way back and can you tell us the story of your first period?

Dr Claire Phipps: Yeah. Hi. Thank you for having me. So my first period was when I was 12 and I was thinking about this a lot when you had emailed me and given me the heads up that this might be what we were talking about.

Because I was like, when was my first period? How old was I? And I didn’t really remember my age, and I don’t know if other guests have said this, but I vividly remember where I was, the sort of time of day, the things that are really imprinted in my memory. And thinking back, I remember being at home, it was something we talked about quite a lot.

And I remember going to the toilet and going, oh, this has happened. I’m feeling slightly overwhelmed, slightly confused, slightly sad actually, that I’d sort of transitioned into a another phase. And it took me a few days to really sort of get to grips with the fact that this had happened. Even though we talk about it a lot, and it’s sort of maybe a bit more commonly talked about today than it was 25 years ago, 30 years ago, but even still even happened, it still took me by surprise.

And it wasn’t like, you know, this floodgates have opened and all these nasty things I was expecting to happen. But it was, it was a landmark, it was part of progression from childhood to womanhood. And it still still took me by surprise, and it still made me slightly sad, I think, actually in retrospect.

Le’Nise Brothers: And when you had those feelings of sadness and surprise, did you talk to anyone about what you were experiencing?

Dr Claire Phipps: No.

Le’Nise Brothers: Why not?

Dr Claire Phipps: No, because I think at the time. It was still very much sort of hidden. You know, the fact that you had started your periods wasn’t something you really wad about or shouted about.

You know, I might have talked about it with my friends. I probably did, but it wasn’t something that I felt that I could really divulge in an emotion, just sort of got on with it. Maybe we’re a bit better about kind of encouraging those emotions today, but I didn’t feel at the time, maybe I didn’t even realise at the time that that was an emotion I could discuss.

But it’s certainly something I just sort of suppressed and got on with.

Le’Nise Brothers: And what was your experience of your period like?

Dr Claire Phipps: So I think I was pretty, you know, I think my mom had pretty well prepared me for what would happen. I think the first experience was, you know, it was painful for me. I, it felt sore.

It felt uncomfortable. Not in a way that wasn’t manageable, but I wasn’t used to having that pain. You know, I wasn’t used to experiencing that sort of sensation. So that was a little bit surprising for me. I think it’s all so individual, isn’t it? You know, how we might experience that, that sensation. So I think that’s very difficult to prepare for.

But it was, it wasn’t a terrible period. It was, you know, a bit of cramps. I remember it really vividly. And it was some light bleeding. It wasn’t long, it wasn’t heavy. It lasted for three or four days and then it was done. It’s a lot different now.

Le’Nise Brothers: Okay. So can you say more about that?

Dr Claire Phipps: Yeah. So I’m perimenopausal.

So, as I often say to anyone that sees me, anything goes when it comes to your period, you know, they could be shorter, longer, heavier, lighter. Mine are heavy. They’re not particularly painful, but they’re just like, oh it’s my period. It’s heavy. It’s, you know, having to plan around it. Having to think where am I going to be?

Am I going to be on a tube? Am I going to be on a bus? What, you know, when have I last changed sanitary protection? I know I’m on a hormone replacement therapy. Full disclaimer. Have I taken everything correctly? You know? And so it’s, it’s more of a mission, I think, for my period now. And I know that there’s a lot of grief and sense of loss over moving through the menopause and losing your period.

But for me, I can’t wait to lose my period.

Le’Nise Brothers: Wow. Okay. That’s so interesting because I’ve heard so many different things. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, we have the one end of the spectrum where when you get a period, and some people, they’ve had a party, their parents have thrown them a party. Mm-hmm. Other people, it’s this like very secretive and shameful.

And then again, when you go down to other end, it’s that same like mixed bag where some people just want it over, and some women are just like, okay, I wish I knew when my last period was, so I would celebrate that. So it’s so interesting that this event, this monthly event, that 50% of the population experience, we have such a spectrum of emotions attached to it.

So we’ve gone from your first period all the way to talking about how you’re ready to be done, done with your periods. What about in between. You had your period, it sounds like it was slightly painful, but it was manageable. How about as you went through your twenties and your thirties?

Dr Claire Phipps: Yeah, so I think what I did, um, what many people probably did was you know, I was very active. I was very sporty. I swam a lot. I ran a lot as a, as a teenager. And my period just felt like it was getting in the way. So I think I did a, and it was also uncomfortable for me. And again, there’s a spectrum, isn’t there, of pain.

Some people can manage it a bit better, but I’m trying to move away from that, that thought process and if it’s impacting you, how do we manage it? And so it was painful. So I did what a lot of people did and I went on the combination pill and I think I was probably 17 or 18, and it was purely to control my cycles.

It was purely so I could go, I don’t want to bleed this month. Not because they were particularly heavy, but business, I just felt they got in the way. And I did that for a few years until I probably had finished my, A Levels, taken some time out, gone back to medical school. And it was in my early medical school career.

I was like, I’m getting migraines, I’m getting migraines with auras. I probably ought not to be on this pill. Probably ought to stop. But I didn’t because I loved the fact that I had control.

Le’Nise Brothers: Wow. So you’d rather have experienced the migraines than

Dr Claire Phipps: Yeah.

Le’Nise Brothers: Period.

Dr Claire Phipps: Wow. I, not for very long because I realised that it, it was dangerous.

And so I did stop it and I didn’t go back on it actually at that point. And my periods were manageable. And they were quite irregular after that. So they were quite irregular for a long time. And it didn’t really bother me because they weren’t particularly heavy, so weren’t, you know, if, if they weren’t predictable and I got a period when I wasn’t expecting it. It was manageable, you know, it wasn’t this flooding or anything like that. And it wasn’t until I sort of started to think about conception that I started to take more notice of what my cycles were doing and going, actually they’re every 40, 42 days, every 45, sometimes a bit longer, sometimes a bit less.

And that’s when I was diagnosed with PCO, so polycystic ovary and not the syndrome, but sort of that irregularity of cycles. So it, that took me up to sort of wanting to have my first child, which was a little bit harder. It wasn’t impossible, but it took us a while to conceive. Had my first child, breastfed for my first child for a bit until he decided he didn’t want that anymore.

And my periods came back and they came back regular as clockwork.

Le’Nise Brothers: Wow.

Dr Claire Phipps: So something had kicked in and I had a period every 28 days, so I could, I was looking at my period tracker before I came on today, and I was looking back all this time going, wow, they’ve just been regular as clockwork ever since.

So conceiving my second child was actually, thankfully for me, relatively easy, um, because I could time it really well and again, had my second child and they came back regular as clockwork and they’re regular as clockwork now.

Le’Nise Brothers: Wow. So interesting.

Dr Claire Phipps: Yeah, it’s really interesting what the body does, you know, kind of, you have, it’s always a, a moving goalpost.

It’s always a transition and, and I often say to people, I see, your periods will change, your cycles will change, and it might not necessarily be anything you are doing. It’s just those hormonal fluctuations that your body is managing and navigating. And I also think, I’m 48 now and I look back and I go, God, I’m only now just understanding my cycle.

I’m only now just understanding those slight changes of physical wellbeing, mental wellbeing. I’m only just getting it. I’m only just realising now, oh, it’s because I’m mid cycle or I’m towards the end of my luteal phase, or I’m eating that because what my hormones, you know, that that sort of adjustment and that that understanding of what your hormones do to your body and to your cycle and to your health has taken me a, taken me a long time to figure out.

And again, now I figured it out. It’s changing again, isn’t it? Of course.

Le’Nise Brothers: I wonder, what you’ve been saying about now understanding your cycle and everything that you’ve experienced with your period, how does that translate to your work as a doctor? So you’re working with patients, how does your experience affect how you work with patients who have had similar experiences?

Dr Claire Phipps: I think, being able to identify with somebody, whether that’s a patient or whether that’s a friend or a family member, and have that empathy and that insight gives you an understanding of what someone might be going through. And I think that’s, that’s gold dust really, because we would all have a different feeling, a different sensation, a different experience of our periods and our bleeds and whatever that entails in terms of that change that we feel.

So I think putting yourself in the, in that position, putting yourself in someone’s shoes is really important. I think the ability to, I don’t think that necessarily makes me any different from you or anyone else. Just being able to put yourself in someone else’s shoes is really important for me. Having heavier bleeds now being perimenopausal, I think I can understand how impactful that can be or someone who’s having that all the time.

And how much of an impact that has on someone’s life. People take time out of work, don’t they, to plan around their periods. People lose two weeks of their life if they’ve had severe PMDD, for example. And so I’m very mindful of how our cycles can impact not just that 3, 5, 7 day, 10 day bleed, but just how it can affect, affect every day of our lives, because we’re not just having a period, we’re cycling all the time.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah.

Dr Claire Phipps: So having that mindfulness, I think is really important as a women’s health GP, vital in fact.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah. It’s so helpful to hear you saying this because I’ve had so many experiences, not only myself, but my clients have had so many experiences and people I’ve spoken to have had so many experiences where they have worked with doctors who have said, it’s all in your head.

Periods are supposed to be painful. A heavy period is supposed to be, that’s normal. And we’re skipping ahead a little bit, but I think this is really relevant to what we’re talking about. You’re a trainer member of the British Menopause Society, a medical advisory council.

How do you work with other doctors who you see don’t have the same empathy that, you know, you’ve shared, that you share with your patients?

Dr Claire Phipps: Hmm. So I think it’s really important that we train our healthcare professionals and move away from this, whether it’s paternalistic medicine. So I’m telling you what to do.

I’m telling you what I think to you are the expert in your body. I have the medical knowledge, but you are living the experience. And so I think it’s really important that for me as a GP trainer and a menopause trainer, I’m training our healthcare professionals to move away from this. It’s normal, because what is normal?

What is the kind of, you know, that bell shaped curve that we’re all sh shown, everyone falls into these normal parameters. But what about, what’s outside of that? And what about if we’re in that parameter and we don’t feel it’s normal? So I think it’s important that we train our healthcare professionals.

It’s important we empower ourselves and we know that if, and I always say this, let’s move away from that word normal, if it’s impacting the quality of your life, and that’s going to be different from you to the next person. But if it’s impacting the quality of your life to a degree where you are having to take time out, to a degree where you are planning things around your period to the degree where you are flooding, you are using sanitary protection, that’s, that’s, you know, lasting an hour, 30 minutes, two hours, whatever it is for you, then that’s significant.

And the degree of significance in terms of what we do medically will obviously differ. But that’s what I want to be having a conversation with you about how it’s affecting you and what we can do about maybe easing that a little bit. And there may not be a huge amount we can do, but having the conversation is so important because again, we’re breaking down taboos of it’s okay to be in excruciating pain, it’s okay to experience discomfort during sex.

It’s okay to have flooding or, you know, a period every two weeks. It’s not okay in my opinion. I think just moving away from that and I think, I think we’re getting better, but as always, there’s, there’s lots more work to be done to empower, empower us as patients ourselves, but also to make sure our medical professionals ask about this and don’t normalise anything.

Le’Nise Brothers: Mm-hmm. You talked about moving away from this paternalistic model and that’s so interesting. This very, what I say goes just do everything I say to this idea of you’re the expert in your own body. When you use this kind of language, have you had any challenges from doctors who’ve said, that’s nonsense or, you know, that’s mollycoddling patients, or, you know, that sort of thing.

Dr Claire Phipps: So little bit of pushback and it’s across the spectrum. It’s not one sort of group of people that I get the pushback from more often than not, though, if you, I think language is really important, and I think having a kindness and empathy is really important.

Whether that’s to a medical professional or to anybody, to, you’ve heard perfectly honest, but I think the language you use around this and the impact that it can have is vital. So more often than not, I don’t have the pushback. I, I find that people are actually more eager to learn and say, actually that’s, that’s got me thinking.

Bearing in mind, GPs in the UK obviously have limited amount of time with each, each patient. So there is a little bit of, I can’t do this in 10 minutes, but I would say to that, well, you don’t have to, no one’s asking you to do anything in 10 minutes. But start the conversation. Have that conversation where you are encouraging somebody to speak up, particularly with ethnic diverse populations where there’s a language barrier, perhaps, starting that conversation, building rapport, building trust, allowing someone to regain trust in perhaps what’s a bit of a broken system.

And the same with healthcare professionals. I think we’re, what we’re moving away from is you’ve got to do everything in short space of time. No. Start the conversation, have the conversation, and then encourage the conversation to continue. So I don’t really feel like I get a lot of pushback. There is a little bit in that what I say goes, and I’m like, really?

Do we really still think like that? Or, you know, would I encourage you to think a bit more, a bit more holistically and encourage the conversations?

Le’Nise Brothers: Honestly, you’re blowing my mind with these things because that you’re saying, because again, we’ve had so many experiences with doctors where it’s, you just feel like you have to do this big preparation to go in.

How are you going to use that 10 minutes wisely? How are you going to maximise your opportunity to have face time with a doctor? What are you going to get out? And I’ve had so many conversations with women who we talk about, okay, what is your strategy when you go to the doctor? How are you going to use this time?

And so for you to say it’s the start of a conversation, that’s, for me, that’s mind blowing. Wow. Honestly, I just like kudos, chapeau, like a round of applause for that. I’m really excited, you know, for the work that you continue to do in helping other doctors have this mindset because especially when you’re going through this, these big transitions in life, so perimenopause, menopause, and post menopause, you need to know that you’re working with a medical professional that has your best interest at heart and that it is an ongoing conversation.

On those transitions that I’ve just mentioned, something that I find really interesting is this transition that we’ve gone through kind of culturally in the UK from, I remember speaking to a woman about 10 years ago, she said, my doctor told me that perimenopause is not a real thing to, now we have conversations about those three phases, but what I’m also seeing is that there’s kind of this blending that’s happening.

Can we just talk about the difference between the three: perimenopause, menopause and post menopause for those who are listening to kind of do a level set there?

Dr Claire Phipps: Yeah, absolutely. And I think we’re, even I’m guilty of saying menopause is, or when we talk about menopause, it’s this. And I think we use those terms for ease, because perimenopause, post menopause, postmenopausally is just, it’s a mouthful, isn’t it?

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah.

Dr Claire Phipps: And again, does it really matter in terms of when we’re talking about it as healthcare professionals? It does, but as as patients, I mean it does too, but I wouldn’t, I would worry about it less so when, when we think about perimenopause, we’re thinking about this transition time to when we might experience our last period.

And you might question, well, how do I know when I’m going to experience a la my last period? We don’t, it’s retrospective, but perimenopause really is this transition. And it can happen and it happens at different ages for every one of us, but it can happen as young as 40. It can happen a lot younger than that.

And that transition in the UK can be anywhere from about four to eight years. So that’s four to eight years where we may experience a change in our cycles and a change in physical, mental, genital symptoms. Menopause really is just that one day in time when we can look back and say, I’ve not had a period for 12 consecutive months and that’s normally one day, I’ve gone, you know, and I’m crossing my fingers for that.

I’ve not had a period for 12 months. Obviously that brings other symptoms too. I’m mindful of that. And then post menopause is the time after your 12 months without a period. So we’re postmenopausal for the rest of our lives so we don’t get through menopause. We may transition through that cycle of change where we’ve not had a period, but we’re postmenopausal for the rest of our lives.

And why that’s important is because we want to be thinking about this transition as holistically as possible, embracing this transition, making it a joyful process rather than this dreaded process. I speak to a lot of young school children actually about menopause now, in the way that we spoke about periods, contraception, pregnancy, I’m talking much more about menopause.

And everyone’s like, oh my God, it sounds like this awful, awful. And I’m dreading it. I’m like, we don’t need to dread it. We just need to be aware, empower ourselves with knowledge and make it a good positive transition. Because I think, for years it’s been, oh, it’s going to be an absolute nightmare.

I’m not going to be able to manage, and don’t get me wrong, it can be really tricky if you’re not getting the right support and the, the right holistic support. But actually I don’t think it has to be. I think it can be a really positive experience too. But there’s a process, there’s a grieving process for some people, and there’s a grieving process, um, in terms of loss of reproductive health for some, perhaps if you’ve not achieved fertility and you’ve wanted to, but for some it’s, it’s a joy. So I think there’s phases, and I’m digressing massively. You’ll have to keep me on track. There’s phases that, that help us as, as healthcare professionals think about where you are and therefore plan treatment appropriately.

Le’Nise Brothers: I think personally for me, so I’m 46, I’m turning 47 in a few months, and there’s this mental barrier that I’m trying to get over where I know I’m perimenopausal, but I don’t want to identify myself as menopausal, because when I think of that, I think of like, it’s the Golden Girls, those kind of old stereotypes of older women.

Although what I realised is that the Golden Girls, they were only in their fifties.

Dr Claire Phipps: It’s crazy, isn’t it?

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah.

Dr Claire Phipps: Yeah. And I grew up watching the Golden Girls and I, and I think of them and I think, oh, they’re like, are they my granny? You know? No, they’re just,

Le’Nise Brothers: yeah, they’re us. It, all of these things where you realise how old people actually are, and like, you compare yourselves, yourself to them.

And then, so for me, it’s that mental thing of I don’t, okay, I’m perimenopausal fine, you know, cool, but I’m not menopausal.

Dr Claire Phipps: Yeah.

Le’Nise Brothers: What we, so we’ve talked about the three different phases and you’ve identified, what we need to be thinking about as patients. But what about any myths?

Myths that you see, you know, what are you seeing in, in clinic when women come to you and they talk about what they’re experiencing and what are some of the misconceptions that you have to break down?

Dr Claire Phipps: I think by the time many people get to see a menopause specialist, they’ve, like you said at at the start, they’ve had to have formed a strategy to try and get what they need.

And I often say that there’s no agenda here. Just tell me what’s going on. And some of the commonest myths I see is that people have been to their doctor many, many times and they’ve been told that they can’t be perimenopausal because they might still be having a regular cycle. And on the whole, that can be true.

But if again, this is where you are the expert in your body, if you sense some changes happening, and that might be physical, that might be psychological, that might be genital. And that is, that is a change for you. And that change needs to be discussed. And I think as doctors we were very closed-minded and going, you have to be around the age of 45 to start having perimenopause when we know ethnicity, environment, lifestyle all affect when we might start to experience this and it might be a lot younger.

So I think a lot of people find that, the myth is I still have a regular cycle, therefore I can’t be perimenopausal. And that’s not the case. The other big one is the HRT is dangerous, hormone replacement therapy is dangerous or it’s going to give you breast cancer. The other, and, and we know that for the vast majority of people, the benefits do outweigh the risks.

That’s not to say I didn’t want to have a holistic discussion with you. Hormones aren’t the be all and end all, but they can be helpful. A really big one is that if I’m approaching menopause, I can’t, I can’t get pregnant. And there are people I do see who have conceived at the age of 51, 52, and most people don’t want to do that.

There’s some that clearly do, but most don’t. So contraception’s really important in the perimenopause ’cause you’re still fertile. And that once you get through menopause, so once you’ve passed this stage of not having a period for 12 consecutive months, your symptoms will go away and you’ll start to feel better.

That’s our hope, that’s our blue sky because as our hormone levels stabilise, postmenopausally, some of us do feel better, but not everyone. And so there’s this myth that you’re just going to get through it, it’s all going to be fine. Off you go, fine and dandy. That’s not always the case. So there’s, there’s a few things I think I see commonly.

And those are, those would be my top three.

Le’Nise Brothers: Mm-hmm. What’s really interesting is this word transition and you know, we have this expectation that when we’re on the other side, we’re going to go back. But if you think about, you often hear this comparison to of perimenopause, to puberty and calling it the second puberty.

We don’t expect teenagers to be the same when they’re on the other side of puberty. And so it’s interesting that we don’t think about it for ourselves and you know, how these hormonal changes affect us and how they affect our brain and our cognitive function. We talk about the negatives and the symptoms, but there’s a lot of positives as well.

So that’s kind of what I’m, I’m thinking about when, you know, I’m managing my own experience of perimenopause, but I want to ask you about HRT. So you’ve talked briefly about it and there is, especially in ethnic minority communities, there are a lot who have reservations about HRT due to, you, you mentioned that myth about breast cancer.

We have all of these kind of whispers about HRT and also this kind of fear of, of going on long-term medication. What do you say when you work with a patient who has reservations about HRT?

Dr Claire Phipps: So I think part of the way I approach any, and I use their umbrella term here, menopause consultation, is that what I want someone to leave with is feeling like they’ve, they’ve left with more knowledge and they’ve left with evidence-based knowledge.

So what we’ll always talk about is a very, very holistic approach to menopause, which may or may not include HRT, but HRT is one tool in our box of many tools, which can help to support somebody’s menopause. It may be that someone can’t take it or chooses not to take it. Fine, as long as their understanding is correct in why they’re choosing not to take it.

Perfect. That’s all I want for you. I want you to be empowered and knowledged. When we think about hormone replacement therapy, what we commonly think of is body identical preparations, which essentially mean preparations that are licenced and regulated. So they’ve gone through robust clinical trials and we know that they’re very, very safe for the vast majority of individuals.

So the benefits outweigh the risks. There is this misconception that HRT causes or increases hugely our risk of breast cancer. And that stemmed from a study done by the WHI, the Women’s Health Initiative many years ago. We know that that study was incorrectly published in terms of its statistics.

So its statistical analysis said that it was an increased risk of breast cancer. That wasn’t the case. And the subsequent studies have shown that that’s not the case. That’s not to say there’s no risk. In medicine we can never say zero risk, but actually we know with the body identical hormone replacement therapy preparations, the risk is still going to be very, very low.

And the risk is going to be dependent not only on how long you take it for, but also your other medical history, your personal history, your family history, and importantly your lifestyle history. So smoking, alcohol, movement, self-care, all of that plays apart. So HRT is a really, really good, what we call gold standard treatment of menopause symptoms that are impactful and affecting the quality of your life.

And that will be different for every person, but there are lots of other tools in our box as well than a non-hormonal that are supportive than are non, non prescribable as well, that we would want you to be aware of so you can make a really informed decision about which way to go down.

Le’Nise Brothers: Mm. You’ve mentioned holistic, you’ve mentioned non-hormonal.

Obviously that’s piquing my interest as a nutritionist. When you have a patient who comes to you and you look at what their lifestyle factors and you see their diet and you see, okay, that’s not optimum. You see they’re not getting enough sleep. You know, we know sleep problems are an issue in perimenopause and beyond.

Do you gently nudge them towards, maybe, making some dietary changes, maybe considering some supplements alongside having this HRT conversation?

Dr Claire Phipps: Yeah, absolutely. So I, I would always say that the foundation pillar of treatment of menopause is thinking about our lifestyle and our nutrition and our self-care is fundamental.

I think if we get that right, we know that it can help so many people without any medication whatsoever. And I’m very much or less as more doctor, but I don’t need to give you something I don’t want to necessarily, because it’s a medication. It is something that we have to remember to do. And in menopause that can be difficult enough as it is.

But I think the foundation pillar is, is helping people to understand the huge impact that may be hacking our lifestyle a little bit can do to our, to our bodies and to how we feel. So when I first see somebody, I think it’s really important to kind of meet them at where they’re at at that point, because we don’t want to be having to change too much too quickly.

It can be difficult to do that, particularly if you’re struggling with symptoms, but is where are you at this point in time and what can we, what small changes can we make? What life hacks can we make to improve how you might feel? And that might be one change that might be doing a few squats while you are boiling the kettle.

That might be, try not to have that packet of biscuits on that day, but not completely excluding that from your diet. If you’re someone that enjoys that, maybe just reducing it. It’s small hacks, not doing everything altogether. But I think the fundamentals, and, you know, this is a nutritionist, is I think they can be game changing in terms of how we feel.

But it’s important that we meet people at where they’re at now because making those suggestions or not, what I would say is I always, I’d always want to be invited to make those suggestions and ask if it’s okay to make those suggestions. Because for some people it’s too much, it’s too overwhelming and it can feel intrusive.

So actually, am I okay to discuss this with you? Would you like to hear some of these recommendations that I have? Would you be interested in knowing about what supplements might or might not help you? And then meeting that person somewhere in the middle of that? Some people are obviously going to say, absolutely bring it on, whereas other people aren’t ready to hear that.

And there’s an element there of meeting somebody where they’re at and then working from there, step by step.

Le’Nise Brothers: That’s really interesting. You mentioned that it can feel intrusive and that surprises me because the expectation is that someone goes to the doctor and they’re there for advice. But can you say a little bit more about what you mean by it can feel intrusive?

Dr Claire Phipps: Yeah. So when someone, certainly as a GP when someone comes to you, they often, they want advice, they want resolution, and they want fixes.

Le’Nise Brothers: Mm-hmm.

Dr Claire Phipps: Um, some of those resolutions and fixes need to come from us as patients. Mm. And if you are not ready to make those changes and you hear that those changes are what you need to do, it can feel intrusive.

Le’Nise Brothers: Okay. Okay.

Dr Claire Phipps: But also I don’t want to be that paternalistic doctor that says, you know, I’ve got a million things going on in my brain when I hear someone’s story and I don’t want to suggest everything and I want to give them a list and lists of things to do, and I know that these will help. But I have to hold back and go, where are you at this point in time?

And meet you at where you are at and meet you at where I think you can make some small changes because if we can make some small changes that don’t feel too intrusive for you, then we’re much more likely to build on that rather than rushing in and trying to make 50 different changes when actually mentally you could only manage to do one.

You know, that overwhelm, that mental overwhelm at menopause is huge sometimes. And so adding to someone’s plate is probably not going to be helpful. So it’s inviting change, you know, what can I do? What small things can you do or what can I suggest that you think is is manageable for you without feeling overwhelmed?

Le’Nise Brothers: This is fascinating and it reminds me a bit of this time I was working with a woman who, she was perimenopausal and you, she clearly had a dependency on alcohol. I wouldn’t have called her an alcoholic. That’s obviously not my place to give her that label, but you could see every night it was come home, two or three glasses of, of wine.

And she had a list of issues that I would say that if she had reduced her alcohol intake, she would’ve felt ease from some of her symptoms. But I could also see that she wasn’t ready to not drink. And so it was like, whatever the, as you say, those little steps, those nudges were, you know, you could see that that would make a difference.

Dr Claire Phipps: Mm-hmm.

Le’Nise Brothers: It’s, can you drink a little bit more water when you are out? Maybe could you switch to a small glass?

Dr Claire Phipps: Mm.

Le’Nise Brothers: ’cause she was just not ready, you know, she loved drinking and that social aspect.

Dr Claire Phipps: Mm.

Le’Nise Brothers: And you know, we could have a whole conversation about alcohol and perimenopause and cultural attachment to alcohol in the UK, but I actually want to ask you about your work in cognitive behavioural therapy, because I find that fascinating in that you are giving people tools, again, with the principles that you’ve just described, you know, meeting people where they’re at and seeing what they’re actually ready to do.

But can you talk a little bit about the mental side of perimenopause and menopause and how this marries well with CBT?

Dr Claire Phipps: And again, this is one tool in, in the toolbox, isn’t it? It’s one way that we can help help you to start feeling better. So when we think about hormones in perimenopause, certainly in the early stages of perimenopause, we know that how oestrogen levels, which is the driver of many of our symptoms actually go up, and they can go up really, really high.

And sometimes oestrogen levels being really high can be the first triggers of menopause symptoms, perimenopause symptoms, and that tends to be psychological in, in, in nature. And oestrogen is a bit like our fight or flight hormones. So it’s our party hormone, our get up and go hormone. So when levels go super high, we can start to feel a little bit more anxious, maybe have some palpitations, maybe feel a bit more on edge or unable to cope, or I need to juggle everything.

And again, completely separate topic is the unmasking of AuADHD, so all the neurodivergence at this point as well and how oestrogen acts as a buffer. And when that buffer is no longer working well, how that can also feed into our symptoms as well. But actually when oestrogen levels go really high, those psychological symptoms are some of the first to present.

What we want to do in an ideal blue sky world is recognise those symptoms certainly as your healthcare professional and not put those down to depression, anxiety on its own. Are they hormonal driven? If they are, and perhaps you’re having some physical symptoms such as hot flashes or night sweats or insomnia.

CBT, cognitive behavioural therapy can be really helpful as a tool to help reframe how we’re thinking about things. It clearly isn’t going to rationalise what’s going on physiologically, but sometimes if we are anticipating a hot flush or night sweats and we’re going into a meeting or we’re having to present something in front of a group of people, the anticipation of what could happen when a hot flush comes, can often be worse than the hot flush itself.

So can we anticipate how we might feel and change the way our brain thinks about that in a bit more detail? So it’s about, cognitive behavioural therapy is about changing the way our brain deals with a, with a potential situation or a situation when it happens. And by helping us reframe that, rethink about those things, we can often make those symptoms better.

We can’t always change them a hundred percent. And again, cognitive behavioural therapy is a skill. We’ve got to learn how to do it. And it sometimes is difficult, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t. But it’s a very non-intrusive way to try and make some changes. And so those little hacks, thinking about how we can re train our brain about sleep.

So for many of us, we begin to dread going to bed because we think, oh, I’m just going to take the ages to get to sleep, or I’ve got this massive to-do list tomorrow. Or I know that I’m going to wake up at three or four o’clock in the morning and then I’m not going to to get to sleep and I’m going to start catastrophising.

But can we change the way we think about sleep or can we change the way we’re thinking about a bedtime routine? And again, cognitive behavioural therapy can give us some tools to do that and to work on. And so I think it’s a really useful way to and again, it can be used for many aspects of our lives, not just for menopause symptoms, but to sort of anxiety, low mood.

It can be really helpful to, to think about things on a slightly different perspective. So can we shift the perspective essentially?

Le’Nise Brothers: Hmm. That’s fascinating. And for someone who wants to find out more about how C-B-D-C-B-T cogniti, not CBD, CCB

Dr Claire Phipps: D probably we should talk about that too.

Le’Nise Brothers: How that can help them, what are some resources that you might point them to?

Dr Claire Phipps: So in the UK, if you are thinking about having cognitive behavioural therapy, your GP could refer you for this. And you can ask for that referral to happen. And some of it can happen online. Some of it can happen face-to-face, depending on, depending on your need. There are lots of good resources on the Women’s Health Concern website and also the British Menopause Society website that can signpost you to, to CBT as well.

They can’t actually refer you, but there’s some resources on there. And the British Association of Psychotherapists and Psychologists, it’s a bit of a mouthful also has some good resources about where to go if you’re looking for a therapist itself.

Le’Nise Brothers: Okay. I’ll have all of those links in the show notes.

I want to just go back, we have time for one more question, and I want to go back to what you said about unmasking. And what I am also seeing is this increase in diagnoses around autism ADHD in perimenopausal woman. Can you say a little bit more for someone who is intrigued by this and thinks that might be what’s going on for me here?

Dr Claire Phipps: Yeah. Um, I think we have seen a huge increase in the diagnosis of AuADHD, so the spectrum of neurodivergence, I guess we’ve seen an increase in assigned female at birth, individuals being diagnosed. And there is this sort of rhetoric I guess, is that, oh, it’s just a, it’s a trendy diagnosis.

That’s why there’s, there’s been an increase in, in its incidents. And I don’t think that’s the case. I think it’s always been there. I think women and girls inherently are very good at masking ADHD. So we’re very good with oestrogen as a buffer. And again, it’s not just oestrogen, obviously, I know, but with oestrogen as a buffer, we’re very good at, and you’ll see this in schools, you know the difference between girls and boys with ADHD or autism or spectrum disorder.

Girls are very good at getting on with things and just focusing a bit better and masking a bit better. So this ability to complete a task, maybe they might go sort of tangentially around completing that task, but they’ll complete the task. When we get to perimenopause, we sort of lose the natural cycling of oestrogen as a buffer.

So what we see in many individuals is that their ability to multitask or their ability to get a task done or their ability to focus or have attention goes out the window. And not all of this is going to be because, you know, they’ve unmasked a spectrum disorder. Some of it is, and we do see it really, really commonly because oestrogen tends to be the thing that lubricates ourselves, our neurons, our joints, our vaginas.

It just makes clarity of thought a little bit more easy. So when we, when we lose that buffer, I think what we’ve got to be very mindful of as GPs, as psychologists, as healthcare professionals in general, is, is there an underlying neurodivergence here that we’re, we’re missing? Because that also can complicate how you manage as a patient, your perimenopause. HRT might help, alternatives might help, but we really do need to think about you very, very holistically, massively thinking about your nutrition.

We know how much, and I don’t need to speak to the expert on this, but we know how much hacking your diet can help with your nervous system. And so even simple changes can be really effective, but it needs to be not just hormones, not just nutrition, it’s combination effect. But unmasking at perimenopause is common.

Le’Nise Brothers: And, f or someone who’s listening to this and is thinking, this is what I think is going on for me, are there any kind of key words when they speak to, or phrases that they should use when they go to their GP that will help them push them down the pathway to perhaps if they were seeking a diagnosis, to getting that diagnosis?

Dr Claire Phipps: Yeah, I think track your symptoms, track your psychological symptoms and think about how they’re affecting you. If you are considering this as a possibility, make yourself some notes about how it’s affecting you and the aspects of your life that it’s affecting you in.

That’s really important. That’s a key part of diagnosis. Send that to your GP before you go to see your GP so that they can just have a little kind of I’ve had a thought process about this because when we do a referral, what we need to do is, it’s a really long-winded referral. We need to know every aspect of how it’s impacting you.

Work, family, life ,home life, you know, your ability to function, just driving a car. It has an impact in every aspect of your life. And that’s part of how a referral, certainly within the NHS works. So if we can kind of think about that before you even get to us, that’s brilliant. And write that down and send that to us.

So that’s a really good strategy to have, but also just have an honest conversation if you can, conversation with your doctor or healthcare professional about it. Because I think there’s a myth that we’re gate keeping referrals, and that’s not the case. It’s just that because there are so many more referrals to do, the referral process takes longer and the waiting times are longer.

That’s not to say that you won’t be seen, but, but I would start the process if you’re considering it, and get that into your GP so your GP can start thinking about it from the get go.

Le’Nise Brothers: Great. We’ve explored a lot today. We’ve talked about AuADHD, we’ve talked about perimenopause, menopause, and post menopause.

We’ve talked about HRT, we’ve talked about strategies for working with doctors. What’s the one thought that you’d like to leave listeners with today?

Dr Claire Phipps: So I think from a menopause perspective, I would really love people not to be fearful of it and to embrace it. That may well take some time because there may be things that you have to work through as a result of that.

But I think let’s move away from this disease process, and let’s move towards a natural transition that could be positive if we allow it to be. And if we work with our healthcare professionals who also need more training to understand it. But also let’s break down some taboos. Let’s talk about this more openly with our family, our children, our partners, so that we can get the support that we need.

Let’s get more workplaces involved so that we have a more understanding work environment. But talk about it. The more we talk about it, you know, the more taboos we break down. And we’ve seen that, you know, certainly in the last five or six years that I’ve been, I’ve been working in the medical space for a lot longer, but certainly in the last five or six years, the taboos have really begun to break down.

Not enough. There’s still work to be done, of course, but it’s getting better. And I would say from a gender affirming menopause perspective, let’s start to make this space more inclusive. More work to be done there. But let’s, let’s really focus on that so that we can, we can help.

Le’Nise Brothers: Thank you so much for your time today and for sharing your wisdom. Where can people find you?

Dr Claire Phipps: So I’m an NHS and a private GP. I work out of London Gynaecology in Central London. But I’m also @themenopausegp on Instagram and my aim is to try and post as much information there so you don’t need to go to seek private support.

And lots of that will be evidence based, so just take a look there.

Le’Nise Brothers: Fantastic. Thank you so much.

Dr Claire Phipps: Thank you for having me.

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Period Story · May 28, 2026

Period Story Podcast, Episode 111, Martha Silcott: It’s Not Okay To Flush Tampons and Pads

Did you know that 700,000 panty liners, 2.5 million tampons and 1.4 million pads are flushed down the toilet everyday in the UK? Martha Silcott is the inventor of two products that aim to reduce the impact of disposable personal care waste: FabLittleBag and HyGeeni. This was a perfect week to release this episode of Period Story with a fellow Arsenal fan (#coyg!)

In this episode, Martha shares:

The lightbulb moment that led to her inventing a brand new product
The process of patenting and bringing FabLittleBag to life
Why we need to stop flushing tampons and pads and the impact this waste has on our sewage system
What terms the loo roll wrap, flushers, binners, and the handbag smuggle mean
The Period Supportive movement in sport she started, in order to help periods be less of a barrier to girls’ participation in sport
How a customer inspired the invention of HyGeeni, a larger disposable bag to help dispose of used stoma bags and diapers
And of course, the story of her first period

Martha says that if you want to invent something or create something new, there is plenty of help out there to talk to and to give you guidance!

Thank you, Martha!

Get in touch with Martha:

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LISTEN IN SPOTIFY

SHOW TRANSCRIPT

Le’Nise Brothers: Hi, Martha, thank you so much for coming onto the show today. I am really excited to speak to you, hear about your fabulous invention. But let’s first start with the question I ask all my guests, which is tell us the story of your first period.

Martha Silcott: Okay, well, I think mine’s probably really dull and not very interesting at all compared to many others, and I don’t like remember real deep details.

I just remember waking up one morning, I was 11, I think, and there being blood on the sheet, and I had this dual reaction of kind of, oh my God, oh my god. Slight panic with kind of like, oh, I’ve arrived, this is the thing, this is the change. So there were, my recollection is that there was both of those feelings that happened at that moment, and I think I got the sheet and told my mum.

All very matter of fact, I was being like, being very matter of fact and grown up about it all, you know? Because I had obviously seen my mum use tampons and things, so I knew a little bit about it, but I, with hindsight, I probably didn’t know hardly anything about it, to be honest. So I kind of knew what it was and I knew it had significance.

And I remember thinking this means I’m kind of grown up even though I was so, so not grown up. And, uh, yeah, I just remember treating it very practically and almost not wanting to tell anybody else but like needing to communicate that to my mum. I then, I don’t know what happened, whether obviously when you first start your period, it’s not, you know, oh that’s it.

Every single month, boom, boom, boom on, you know, really regular. So I think there were some big gaps in between, but my, my better recollection is when a very convoluted story, which is a story for another day not on this podcast, but I ended up at a, a Quaker boarding school in Hertfordshire, which was vegetarian co-ed, very different kind of category of boarding school.

Anyway, I ended up there and I very much, uh, remember wearing Bodyform pads, which were, it’s a shame you can’t see me ’cause they’re, I’m, I’m explaining how fat and big they were. And they were absolutely solid like lumps of rock. And um, the fashion was like really skinny jeans. And so we’d squeeze into these jeans and then somehow we’d have to get this great big Bodyform pad in there as well.

So I do remember very distinctly with my kind of my roommate. ’cause when you’re in that environment, you all kind of do coordinate your periods quite a lot. And um, you know, we’d all kind of come on at the same time and then we’d be squeezing these Bodyform pads and can you see it? Can you waddling down the corridor, you know, in our tight jeans saying, can you see it?

Can you see it? And that’s kind of one of my earliest kind of proper period memory.

Le’Nise Brothers: I want to go back to what you said about feeling like you were grown up when, or grown up. Yeah. When you first got your period. I think that’s so interesting, this idea that getting your first period is a mark of maturity.

Whereas if you think back now as an adult, you think you were 11, you were still a child. Where did you get this idea that getting your period would make you feel grown up or mark you as a grownup?

Martha Silcott: Genuinely no idea. I’m surmising and I think it’s, it was probably because it’s something you associate with women.

Like at that age, I didn’t associate it with teens or like girls that were just older than me. I associated it with my mum, women grownups. So I think that’s where that feeling of assigning it, that, that label of being grown up really came from, because, you know, in the seventies that there was no communication, there was no, there’s some very weird adverts looking back.

But you know, there was no, there was no real communication about this topic at all.

Le’Nise Brothers: Hmm. So how did you learn about your period then, what you were experiencing?

Martha Silcott: I don’t think I did until I was a grownup, like proper grownup. I don’t think there was anything in my teenage years where I kind of understood it was effectively a hormonal cycle or what that meant.

It was literally that all the conversation was about levels of pain.

Le’Nise Brothers: Oh.

Martha Silcott: And whether you’d leaked or not. And those were the two. And then later whether, were you late and the panic that that would bring. So it wasn’t really learning about your physiology and what was going on in your body or anything really like that until I kind of, got a lot older.

But it was more the practicalities and how they directly impacted you day to day. And, you know, being obviously with a lot of girls, it was very much very much a case of comparing notes with each other. Mm. You know, again, historic, looking back, I’m actually quite grateful that that was the environment because there was a lot of opportunity to be like, oh my God, have you got a you know, paracetamol or whatever or do have you got a spare pad or, I’ve tried these new ones, they’re rubbish, don’t bother, or, you know, just chat about it.

And I remember distinctly I was quite sporty at school and I remember it wasn’t a sporty school at all. And, um, many, many girls would use being on their period as a, as a way out of doing sport. And it was obviously worked quite well.

Le’Nise Brothers: Mm-hmm. And you mentioned that experience of having those like communal conversations about, about periods and experience and whatnot.

And actually I feel like even as an adult when I go to events and then we end up all talking about our periods, it just, it’s still feels quite nice even though, you know, I’m an adult now, but that kind of

Martha Silcott: agreed

Le’Nise Brothers: communal conversation about, especially something that is still a bit of a taboo.

Martha Silcott: Mm-hmm.

Le’Nise Brothers: To be able to talk about it quite openly.

Martha Silcott: Mm-hmm.

Le’Nise Brothers: so amidst all of this conversation that you were having when you were at school

Martha Silcott: mm-hmm.

Le’Nise Brothers: What was your actual experience of your period like?

Martha Silcott: I feel very blessed looking back because I had very manageable periods on a regular basis once they kind of started. So from like 12 or whatever, I didn’t really suffer with PMT or like really bad pain.

It, I definitely had uncomfortable, you know, a day or two of uncomfortableness or maybe bloating or whatever, but it wasn’t anything on the level of many other people. So I always felt super lucky and I didn’t, really have I remember there being people who were, and there was actually thinking about it at university.

There was a, a good friend of mine there who every single month for five days didn’t, we used to take her food. Like we didn’t, she didn’t leave her room because she couldn’t, and looking back, she had endometriosis.

Le’Nise Brothers: Mm.

Martha Silcott: Which no one had a clue what on earth that was. It was just in very bad period pain. But we’re talking, you know, migraine blackout, unable to move.

And I remember thinking then, hold on, this can’t be right. This is like really not okay and not normal and she needs to get some proper help. But yeah, it was really, I personally kind of breezed through periods, I think, until I was 40 and then. I don’t know what happened, but it all got really horrible and suddenly I knew what PMT was and suddenly I, my boobs hurt, really hurt.

Like the day before I couldn’t, I remember the first time that ever happened. I was like, oh, my good. Like, something is wrong with me. Seriously. I need to get help, help. And then the next day I, I came on and, and I was like, okay, this must be what everyone’s talking about. And then my, my periods got really heavy.

I mean, they weren’t light before, but they got I hope this isn’t too kind of much go information, but yeah, they got, they got really heavy and, um, and pain and yeah, it all, all just was terrible from basically kind of 40 to 50.

Le’Nise Brothers: 10 years of very kind of tumultuous periods.

Martha Silcott: Yeah.

Le’Nise Brothers: And then like the run up to the period.

And so how did you then manage your period in your forties when you were experiencing all of this?

Martha Silcott: Yeah, I, um, I made sure I had much more of an array of choice of products. You know, all the different strengths. I kind of relied on what that, that super plus version quite a lot. And then sometimes even having to like double up with a pad as well, which, and I’d never been, like, apart from my very first kind of Bodyform experience, as soon as I transitioned to tampons, I never looked back on, I never wore a pad really.

Um, maybe at night sometimes, but yeah, and then I kind of had to re-embrace that as an option and just get used to having them in every single handbag, because I’d go through them at a much more rapid pace than I was typically used to. And I remember really kind of, I was working in an office at the time, and I remember always thinking at that time of the month, you know, what am I wearing?

Uh, I have to wear black on the bottom half, like always. And, um, yeah, I do remember having a nightmare experience where I was in a meeting and I remember getting up and I, I think I just brushed the chair and I was thinking, oh, I need to go and change. And there was blood on the chair. I was mortified, absolutely mortified.

And I kind of managed to, to like wing it, like make, I hung back and went, oh, after you, after you. And, um, you know, man, they didn’t know. But I had to leave the office, run to the nearest shop and buy a new pair of trousers.

Le’Nise Brothers: Wow.

Martha Silcott: Luckily I was wearing black trousers. So no one takes any, you think people are going to notice what you’re wearing.

Actually, they don’t care. So, you know, it was just one black pair of trousers for another black pair of trousers. But yeah, my goodness, it was absolutely mortifying.

Le’Nise Brothers: This reminds me of that episode of, I don’t know if you watch the Sex and the City remake And Just Like That, where Charlotte, she, all of a sudden she’s wearing a white skirt, and then in the show they call it a flash period.

I had never heard that expression before, but she got her period unexpectedly. She’s wearing this white skirt and she’s at this big event and how the friends help her, her help her manage that. But I think, you know, I think you, you learn ways to style these things out as a woman, because I think we have these experience there.

If it’s not periods, it’s something where it’s just a bit uncomfortable or unexpected, and you just have to figure a way out, a way to like kind of style it out. But I’m glad that you had a favourable outcome and that experience.

Martha Silcott: I did. I did. And the people that were there to this day, they don’t know that that happened to me in their presence at that meeting.

And it is kind of, it’s one of those things that when you think about the kind of the nightmare things, that’s right up there with one of the most kind of terrifying ones that happened to me. But uh, this is the wonderful, there’s so many wonderful things actually, weirdly about periods, and one of them is that it women come together naturally to support one another in that particular space.

You could go into any toilet anywhere and ask a complete stranger, oh my God, have you got a tampon? Have you got a pad? And if they do, they will give it to you. Yeah. And if not, they’ll go and ask their friend. You know, it’s just one of those, it’s like an unsaid secret rule, we help each other if we need to in this space.

And I kind of love that. And there’s many examples of, you know, of that also happening. I mean, I don’t need, I’m done, right. I’m out the other end now, and, uh, but I still carry them in my bag because you never know.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah. You really never go. Never know.

Martha Silcott: You never know when someone might just need one, you know?

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah. And actually, this, this makes me think so my family and I, we are really big football supporters and we go to the different stadiums and what I’ve been seeing more and more recently in the different stadiums is these

Martha Silcott: Yeah.

Le’Nise Brothers: Specific areas for tampons and pads. Yeah. And I just think that’s, so, that’s such an acknowledgement that, like you said, you never know when you need one.

But also the fact that these things, we shouldn’t necessarily have to pay for tampons and pads, you know, these are

Martha Silcott: necessarily, there’s no, there’s no justification for it at all. What are you talking…?

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah. Being polite.

Martha Silcott: No. Well, I’ll not be polite on your behalf. No, I mean, this, this falls slap bang into my kind of work mode, you know, uh, with Fab Little Bag and what we’re all about and, and what we do every day.

And a big part of that is around period provision. And, as I say, frequently, men, we don’t expect men to wander around with their own toilet roll every day, everywhere. In case they might need to use it that day. We don’t expect anyone to pay for it either. It’s a given that it’s there and it’s free, and it’s there because why it’s needed to manage bodily functions that are natural.

Well, there’s zero difference between that and having a period which is a hundred percent natural and, and a bodily function, but there isn’t the ability to manage that wherever you are, whatever the circumstance is, free of charge. So until that is the case there, there is, I am one of many out there who is fighting for that to be normalised.

And as, as you pointed out, when you say football stadiums, which football are you talking about?

Le’Nise Brothers: We’re big Arsenal fans, so, okay.

Martha Silcott: Oh my gosh. So like, we’re instant, like this is a love fest. It’s just moved into a full on love fest because I’ve been a season ticket holder since 1998. I am a definite Gooner through and through.

Yeah. So, yeah when you say that like our mission in sports when all that research came out from Sports England and, and others in 2022, about how this exodus of teenage girls was happening in sports. I mean, there was a plethora of reasons why that happens, but a consistent reason is periods and being caught short in a situation where there’s only male coaches, there’s no facilities, or the facilities are severely lacking or horrendous, and you are put in a position where you’re going to leak through, or, you know, you have to make these decisions.

Do I stay or do I go? Mm. And if you stay and leak through and suffer those consequences, it’s a very brave teenager who’s going to do that and not be effective ne negatively by that experience.

Le’Nise Brothers: Mm-hmm.

Martha Silcott: And that whole thing of like constantly, every time you’re on your period, you’ve got to be like, well, there’s no toilet roll, there’s no toilet.

It might not have a lock on the door. I don’t really feel secure. You know what, I’ll just skip this session while I’m on my period. And like, go. And then before you know it, you’ve skipped a few and then you’re not getting picked for the team. And then you’re like, you know what? Whatever, you know, I’ll just not bother.

And this is terrible. And I just got really angry about it because I thought, well, although I there’s so many reasons that contribute to that, that one around period and period management can be solved very easily. So we created these coaches bags, which is literally like a first aid kit, but for periods it’s really not rocket science at all.

But nobody had done it. And we created a a kind of discreet black bag, which happens to go with our branding. But you know, it was really more about making it something that male coaches can feel comfortable picking up, holding up, declaring its existence and it becoming part and parcel of the normal kit bag.

So we created those full of tampons, pads and Fab Little Bags so that these products can be easily and hygienically and responsibly and all the rest of it, but mainly easily disposed of in situ. Even if you had to go around the back of the changing area and change your pad outside, behind a tree, whatever, you could do it with a Fab Little Bag ’cause it seals closed and it, you can’t see what’s in it and, and it can fit down your sock and, you know, all those practical things.

So we created the coaches’ bags and now, and out of that was the period supportive movement in sport. And now we’ve got so many, I’m proud to say sporting bodies, national sporting bodies, county sporting bodies, grassroots clubs across football, across rugby, across cricket, across tennis, across hockey, across volleyball, across athletics, triathlon, rowing, world bowls.

I mean, it’s just been incredible the response that we’ve got to our period supportive movement. And it’s one of the proudest things, you know, for me in this space. So our mission there is that periods must not be a barrier to participation in sport. There’s no reason why they should be.

Le’Nise Brothers: Mm.

Martha Silcott: So if we make sure that women and girls can always manage their period in a sporting environment, whether that’s as a fan you know, you’re saying at the stadium or whether it’s, you know, as a coach themselves or as an athlete at grassroots level or Olympic level, or whether it’s a parent coming to pick up her daughter and she gets caught short in that environment as well.

So we just need to normalise it. We need to normalise periods because they are normal.

Le’Nise Brothers: Absolutely. And thinking about your interaction with these male coaches and male sport figures in store, can you share some of the reactions that you’ve had to sharing these, these kits that you put together?

Martha Silcott: You know what, the vast majority of men out there, they’re really open to learning more about this topic, because let’s face it, the chances are they are intimately involved with a woman who has periods, whether it’s their, obviously they’ve got their wife, girlfriend, partner, whatever you want to call them, then potentially a daughter.

And I find that there is the enthusiasm is often heightened if they have daughters, right? They’ve never thought about it before, but the second they’re like, oh my gosh, this could be my daughter. They’re just like, boom, I’m in, all in. Tell me everything. Let me be a better person, uh, better dad. You know?

So that’s really nice. So I, I find like most men are very open to learning. They feel quite empowered after they feel like, oh, that’s how it works. Okay. Because like sometimes in these workshops, whatever, I’ll get out a, a tampon with an applicator, and I’ll be like, okay, you unwrap it and you try and figure out how it works.

You know? And they’re pulling it out backwards and they’re like, flinging it everywhere. And, and it’s the first time that these guys have ever handled an applicated tampon outside of its wrapper.

Le’Nise Brothers: Wow.

Martha Silcott: And they’re just like, yeah, I had no, I always wondered what that was for, you know? And I’m like, no, you don’t pull it out.

You push it through. And they’re like, well, where’s that bit going? And I was like, that’s inside the vagina. And then you push it through and it pops out and it’s hanging out there. And they’re like, oh, okay. Because no one’s ever explained that to them. No one’s ever sat down or they’ve never had the opportunity to you know, they might have handed a tampon to their partner.

They’ve never undone the wrapper, and like, figured out what is going on there with the, with the applicator and the actual cotton bit and what’s that stringy bit, you know, oh, that so you can pull it out. Okay. Right. So just the basics is really important. And if you. Yeah, I’ll come back to that. But, but basically, yeah, so I find most, most men are fantastic in their attitude approach.

And yes, there are some that effectively have a finger in the ears. La la la la la. I’m not listening, this is too ridiculous kind of approach as well. But they are in the minority in my experience.

Le’Nise Brothers: I think that’s important. And that’s actually, it makes you feel good to know that, you know, yeah.

You have these men, especially if they’re working with teenagers and young girls who are already, they’re vulnerable and, you know, this is such a vulnerable topic for so many of these girls and young women. And then if they’re then encountering a man who is very squeamish about it, it can set them up to feel shamed about what is a natural bodily function.

I want to just take a step back and go all the way back to talk about you as an inventor.

Martha Silcott: Mm-hmm.

Le’Nise Brothers: Because I think it’s so interesting that you’ve said that you were in a position where you never really knew what to do with your used menstrual products, especially if there was no obvious solution as like those bins that you see in the loos and whatnot.

And then you created a solution for the problem, which I think is amazing and it’s such a kind of great can-do attitude. Then it took you seven years to get a patent for your product. Can you, before we talk about the menstrual health side of this, can you just talk us through the process of inventing a brand new product?

Martha Silcott: I could tell you how it was for me. I obviously don’t know if it’s standard or I don’t know how people invent things, but I guess mine just came about almost with a life of its own, to be honest. Because I had this experience where I was, trying to put it in the bin in someone’s house and there was no bin.

So I was put in this situation where, okay, do I risk flushing it? What if it blocks the toilet? That’s like the ultimate embarrassing nightmare to go and explain to someone, oh my gosh, you know, blocked your toilet by the way, with a blood soaked tampon. Or do I do, uh, what I did, which is extra wrap it, smuggle it in my sleeve, back to the table, and then surreptitiously put it in my handbag and do the handbag smuggle.

And that experience was horrible. Like it didn’t feel good. I was on edge. It was, I was stressed out about it because I didn’t know if someone was going to start asking me questions or what was going on in my handbag, et cetera. And then it was the next day when I was like talking to friends and half of them were like, oh gosh, you know, I’ve got much worse story.

This happened to me. And I put it in a, there was a bin, but it didn’t have a lid. And then the dog got hold of it and it was chasing a dog of my friend around the house with a pad in its mouth. And it was like, awful. And I was like, okay, mine seems quite mild now compared to this, you know, this is crazy.

And then, other friends were like, Ew, you know, you guys are disgusting. Just flush it down the toilet. What’s wrong with you? And that was the kind of moment when I realised that actually not everyone does what I do. Like that’s the key thing. Everyone thinks that everyone does what they do because we do not talk about disposal.

It is like the taboo within the taboo of periods. And then I was like, no, this is there’s a whole load of people out there doing something completely different. And actually, the more I studied that, the more I realised that that practise of flushing was really a negative environmental issue because a lot of the flushed items were making their way into the rivers and the oceans, partly based on the fact that our sewage system is designed to overflow to, to help control flooding into the, so that’s one way.

And then, our water companies are very guilty of opening sewage gates and just letting stuff go out there. Raw sewage. So this is the pollution aspect. So then I was like, okay, I don’t want to be in that position, so what could I have? What do I need? And I, I was very tampon focused because I was a tampon user.

So I was like, well, I’m holding a blood soaked dripping tampon in one hand, so whatever it is, I’ve got to be able to do it with one hand ’cause I’ve only got one hand free. So that was the start of the thought process, I think. And then, you know, it took, I don’t even know how many months, but many, many, many months of just pondering and, you know, I had a young family.

I was working, I was, life was very busy. I wasn’t sitting around thinking about this for hours and hours. It was very much snatched moments on the bus, on the way to a meeting or on the train on the way back from work or in the shower or, just those odd snatched kind of 10, 15, 20 minute moments.

But it was a little bit obsessive. So I was kind of like, how do I create something that I can open with on one hand? How on earth do you do that? So. I was fixated on the, um, you know, those, um, sunglasses cases that you push together to open to like the pouch. You push the sides together and it opens and you take out your glasses.

Le’Nise Brothers: Right.

Martha Silcott: I was feeling like that’s, that’s kind of it, but it’s not it because you can’t, it’s metal, it’s thin metal that allows, that allows that opening and obviously you can’t have metal in a bag that you’re going to put in the bin. That’s crazy. Yeah, that was a, I got stuck on that for quite a long time.

And then it was, it was a kind of eureka blue Peter moment when I kind of figured out that it wasn’t pushing together, it was pulling apart. It’s a shame can’t see my hand. And uh, yeah, it was putting apart. So then, then it was like, okay. And then I think from there, the kind of finger loop, which is the patented part, like came, came to the fore and then I made it, I made the first one out of a sandwich, you know, like a sandwich bag, like a plastic sandwich bag, some staples, a little bit of nappies, uh, you know, the nappy ve velcro bit that you stick to the nappies.

Yeah. So that was like my kind of what is now glue. And then Sellotape. So that was my first prototype in this house here where I am now. That was my prototype.

Le’Nise Brothers: You came up with a prototype, and what happens next? Do you have to find a product designer and then get it kind of specced up and then go on to see, oh, does this exist or what’s the then process from?

Martha Silcott: I probably should have done that. Yeah, that sounds really sensible. What I did do at some point during that invention process is, which was actually sensible, is to go and like, speak to IP lawyers for free. There was a group called Ideas 21 back then, which did like talks and things about these things.

So I went to a few of those. Because if you share, if you are inventing something new and you share it with anyone, you are risking your IP. So the only person you can really discuss it with is an IP lawyer. So yeah, I learned about like how a bit, how that works and stuff. And then anyone that I was talking to later on about it, I’d get to sign an NDA agreement and so that bit I did, I did all the proper steps.

As for a designer and things like that. No, that was, that didn’t, it honestly didn’t occur to me. I didn’t know there were people that did that. I just thought well it’s on me. So I kind of, a friend’s dad knew a person that, that worked with black bin bags or something and I ended up getting a, a chunk of them made out black bin bags, but I had to do the bit that is the difficult patented bit, if you like and difficult to manufacture.

I had to do that by hand on my own, on the kitchen table, folding over the loops, getting double-sided sticky tapes, sticking it down for hours and hours and hours and hours and hours and hours to make enough bags to be able to like show people, so yeah, it was a kind of, I know this time obviously I was working, so I had, I, I did commit to four days in the corporate world so that I had one day to think about this stuff.

So it was in that one day that I had to do all my, what is now Fab Little Bag, which was then didn’t really have a name project.

Le’Nise Brothers: Right. And it’s quite a big leap to then go from a corporate job, which, you know, we think of as stable. It’s steady to create, not not just creating your own company, but a company that has a brand new invention.

Can you talk about that side of it? That leap of faith that you made

Martha Silcott: leap of faith is one way of putting it complete madness is another way of, of putting it, I think yeah. I don’t know why, I can’t explain why it was such a driver in me. It kind of doesn’t make any sense even to myself now.

What on earth was wrong with me? Like what is, why was I so obsessed with it? I don’t, I don’t know. I think because I felt like this little bag could really help so many people. And it was only little, and it wasn’t going to cost very much, and it was going to be really straightforward. And of course, everyone would flock to me and ask to buy them, right?

So a whole heap of naivety on every level. I do refer to naivety as a superpower, and, and I stand by that because I think for many founders, inventors or not, or just founders of businesses, whatever, I think if you knew everything that was coming at you, you’d probably just stay in your well-paid job.

Thank you very much. And, you know, you, you wouldn’t take that leap. So that naivety is actually a good driver a lot of the time. And I think that I, I genuinely felt I could solve massive problems environmentally, on the one hand, with people flushing, I could convince them not to do that and to put it in the bin.

But if you try and convince a flusher to loo roll wrap, and they’re over the age of 14, they’re not really down with that because suddenly it’s, that is a disgusting option. Whereas if you’ve grown up doing that, you kind of get numb to the fact you are wrapping in blood and or it just doesn’t bother you.

Le’Nise Brothers: Right.

Martha Silcott: But if you are a flusher and you don’t even engage with that part of the process, and you’re not used to seeing the blood, dealing with the blood, acknowledging it in any way, it’s just zoom out of sight, out of mind, then that, that is quite a leap to ask. The, the loo roll wrap doesn’t change behaviour.

Whereas I was convinced that if I could give them a nice way in quotes of doing this that felt clean and in control and hygienic and easy, then why not? ’cause now you, you can’t unknow what I’ve just told you, IE that you are polluting the rivers and ocean. So, and that was the kind of how many flushes felt.

They felt guilty. Like they felt bad about flushing once they understood the impact that it was having.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah.

Martha Silcott: And they wanted to change. And then they’re like, well, what am I meant to do? And then you tell them about the loo roll wrap, and they’re like, oh, really? I’m not sure about that. And then you could say, oh, you can just fab it.

And, and they’re like, oh yeah, that’s fine. So I really felt like I could do, help with that change. And I really felt like I could empower a lot of women and girls who felt disempowered in so many scenarios. Right. Whether you are your mother-in-law’s house and it’s just got that uncomfortable poor old mother-in-law’s.

I’ve got a great one, but, you know, you or you’re just uncomfortable for whatever reason in that house, uh, the bin is like really pretty and it hasn’t got a liner and, you know, all that kind of stuff. Or you are going visit your boyfriend and he shares a flat with three other blokes and you just don’t want to leave that kind of, hello? Yes, I’ve just been here and I’m bleeding everywhere calling card, you just want to keep it and this isn’t about shame, by the way. This is, there’s a big distinction in my head between shame and privacy and feeling and being private about your own menstrual cycle is completely fine with me.

I don’t subscribe to kind of shouting about it and telling everybody as proof that you are relaxed about it. And I think that’s quite a common feeling that, it’s still my personal business that I can choose who I share that with. So there were just, and then, you know, when you’re travelling or you are on a train, I mean, how often are you on a train?

And those, those bins, I mean, come on, train companies, come and talk to me. Yeah. Yeah, so there’s just so many scenarios where binning is difficult slash uncomfortable slash unpleasant slash impossible. So in those scenarios, Fab Little Bag allows you to continue to be a dinner and do the right thing, but with no stress.

Le’Nise Brothers: What’s really interesting is, as you’ve been speaking, you’ve effectively created a new category, but then you’re also using this interesting terminology where you’re talking about binners and, and the loo roll wrap. And the disposable menstrual waste issue is quite a big one.

And I was never taught that you couldn’t, you weren’t supposed to flush your tampons

Martha Silcott: Yes.

Le’Nise Brothers: Down. I would never flush a pad. That felt obvious to me, but it’s, no, it’s not obvious to everyone. But yes, I was never taught not to flush my tampons and to prepare for this conversation.

I was doing some research and some of the stats are just like, they really are mind boggling. So these products, so tampons and pads, they’re the fifth most common product found on European beaches. It’s estimated that around 700,000 panty liners, 2.5 million tampons and 1.4 million pads are flushed on the toilet every day in the UK.

And disposal of menstrual products generates around 28,000 tonnes of waste per year in the UK. I mean, it’s clear this is a, a huge issue and you mentioned the water companies contributing to this waste through their, their methods. But what’s really interesting is that in creating a new category, you’ve also, you have the product, but then there’s also the education side of it.

Martha Silcott: Mm.

Le’Nise Brothers: Where, you know, I mentioned, I like, I didn’t know, and it feels so dumb saying that ’cause it’s just seems so obvious, but it’s just something that you don’t think about. Can you talk a little bit about the education piece that you’ve, that’s part of what your company does?

Martha Silcott: Yeah. It’s, as you say it’s a new category. It’s a new product in a new category, in a taboo subject.

I mean, this is where you just think Martha what are you doing, right? But wrapped around there, it’s crucial for the education. And that’s always been one of our most difficult aspects of the business is how do you educate the masses on this topic?

Because it’s not done in schools it’s not done anywhere really. Okay. And part of the terminology that you mentioned, the flushers, the binners, the loo roll wrap, the handbag smuggle, those were things that came to, to me very naturally in terms of being applicable terms to use in my educational communication with the general public.

Because as soon as you say that to someone, they understand exactly what you mean. They’ve never heard it before like that, but they understand it. And so that whole education piece about not only is it not okay to flush tampons and pads, but it’s the why, well, why not? Because a tampons only little. They’re only going to just you know, but people have never really got a tampon and put it in a glass of water and seen what’s happened. They’re there to expand and they expand and they, people don’t know that our pipes from our toilet to our drainage to our sewer is 10 centimetres in diameter.

And people don’t think, stop and think about and kind of why should they? But this is part of the problem that, particularly in hard water, water areas like London, those pipes are already furry. So that 10 centimetres has just got smaller and people don’t know that typically every three houses share a drain that then goes off and plugs itself into the bigger sewer pipe.

So even if, depending on where you are in the three, you could be doing everything right, but your neighbour next door but one is flushing stuff like crazy, and it’s your area that gets backed up with raw sewage, they’re fine because they’re number one in the, in the circuit. So all this stuff is educational and none of it is really delivered to anybody at any time.

So I don’t have the, I guess the money or the bandwidth to go and educate the world about this. So we do what we can with what we’ve got in the company in terms of creating language that sits well and is understood by people instantly when having this discussion on a mission to break down the barriers of communication around this so that we can talk openly and normally about periods or what we’ve seen is that the more you educate, it kind of has a ripple effect because you educate one person, they might then go and tell their mum or best friend or sister or boyfriend or whatever. Oh, this happened today at school. Oh, this happened today at work. Oh, work’s decided to go. And you know, they’ve got free tampons and pads in, in the thing now.

Oh I went to this toilet in this restaurant and it had these cool bags in there that you like, put your tampon in and you like put it in the bin and it keeps the bin clean and there’s no smell. And it’s like, oh my God. And all these conversations are exactly what has to happen. I cannot do it on my own.

We have to have a, like a grassroots movement of conversation going on. And that’s definitely what’s what’s happened since about 2020. Up until about then I honestly feel like I was having a conversation in a vacuum. I might as well have been just talking to my own hand. But since the tampon tax and the period poverty stats came out around that, those two negatives actually turned into the best positive for this topic because they catapulted this topic into normal conversations.

It was on the BBC News. The word tampon was said in the House of Commons out loud. It really forced its way through barriers at that point. And it wasn’t long after that that the corporate sector certainly sector the larger corporate sector area and the more boutiquey corporate sector embrace that wholeheartedly.

It is now becoming normal to walk into certain types of offices and certain types of establishment. And there be free period products right there.

Le’Nise Brothers: Mmmm.

Martha Silcott: And this is wonderful. And that has come about through a general education push in this space since a roundabout about 2020. And you know, when I first started Fab, there was one organic brand, Naturacare, that I was aware of pretty much.

I think there was one actually, I think TOTM was just started as well, so it’s like two. Within a very short space of time. There was about 21. It just went, boom. And the other wonderful thing that’s happened during this whole kind of evolution of this topic of periods in the last five years or so, is that the reusable market has also gained massive traction.

So there weren’t period underwear. That wasn’t a thing. There were some period pads that you could wash, put them in the washing machine and reuse them. And you know, that was a big thing for a while. It didn’t last very long ’cause probably ’cause the impracticality and the feeling or whatever.

But there’s still some out there now, but it wasn’t like this, it didn’t take over anything as a habit. But the period underwear movement is fantastic and it’s gaining momentum. And now there’s multiple suppliers in that space. There’s something for everybody. And the beauty of all of and the menstrual cup, had, it never went away by the way, but it was used by a tiny fraction of people.

But now that percentage of people using menstrual cups has really rocketed. It’s still small percentage wise, but in numbers, it’s a lot more than it ever, ever was. So this is all fantastic, right? Because. Now women and girls have a choice. They can mix and match. They can try out different things that suit them.

If sustainability and environmental stuff is passionate for you, you can move to solutions to manage your period that do not impact negatively in the same way that tampons and pads and disposables do ’cause they do.

Le’Nise Brothers: Hmm.

Martha Silcott: I’m really thrilled by that aspect that has happened through education and through normalising this conversation.

And that’s what Fab Little Bag as a brand really once, uh, has been like, our kind of lifeblood is just let’s normalise the conversation. Let’s talk about what you do with your used products.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah.

Martha Silcott: Let’s talk about those absolutely horrific experiences. ’cause if you, if you share them, maybe their impact will lessen for you a little bit.

I get people, obviously I meet a lot of people at different venues and stuff, and people will, once they know what I’m doing, they will literally pull me to one side and share their most intimate period disposal nightmare story with me. It’s like cathartic for them, they feel like by sharing they, I’ll say, oh, I’ve never told anyone this, but, and then they’ll tell me and it’s, I kind of love that because it’s um, it’s like a little period therapy, but, you know, it’s, all of this is really crucial to moving forward. So yeah, to answer your, that’s a very convoluted way of answering about education. Education is so, so important to move this conversation and practices forward. Where we are now has only come through forcing that education and forcing the normalisation of periods onto the agendas.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah. And I also want to just take the time to ask about another another product that I, I don’t know if it, this is an invention, but this is another product that you sell, which is, it’s called the

Martha Silcott: HyGeeni

Le’Nise Brothers: HyGeeni. Yeah. Which is this bigger hygienic disposable bags, which is, is super interesting. And it made me think about when my son was a baby and changing his nappies and, you know, sometimes it would be that same thing where you are looking around, there’s no bin, like firstly finding a, a changing table, then trying to find a bin.

Or if the bin was too full, then you’re kind of looking around trying to figure some, maybe you have some of those, those bags that you could put the di, the nappy in. Yeah. But you know, sometimes you see people coming out and they have the, it wrapped up. So this is such an interesting, another really interesting product that it really solves this problem.

Like it’s a sticky problem that people have while you’re just, you’re bit stuck. You don’t know what to do. Oh, I’ve got this in my bag. Oh, thank you past me for buying these disposable bags.

Martha Silcott: Mm-hmm.

Le’Nise Brothers: Can you talk a little bit about that? Is there, has there been an education process needed for that product?

Martha Silcott: I’m just very excited and proud of HyGeeni bag because it’s a bigger version, conceptually it’s a very similar to Fab Little Bag. It’s like a bigger version disposal bag that seals closed. It seals like the glue on on Fab Little Bag is, is vegan glue. If I wanted to force open a sealed Fab Little Bag, I probably could, depending on how long it had been sealed. No chance with a HyGeeni, once it’s sealed, it’s completely sealed. And that is because it’s containing basically pee and poo. So it’s therefore baby’s nappies. Absolutely. But really my core focus for this product was for stoma users and for male leaks.

Le’Nise Brothers: Okay.

Martha Silcott: And this was something that I didn’t know. Credit has to go to, uh, a Fab Little Bag customer called Ali, who she had to, she contacted me ’cause she used fabs for her catheters, but she said, Martha, they’re are just a tiny bit small and you know, I have to self catheterize a couple of times a day.

Could you make them a bit bigger please? So I was like, well, can we just meet? Because I don’t really understand catheters and things. I don’t know. I don’t really know what you’re talking about. It’s a whole nother thing. And I would like to understand. So we met and she educated me on a whole world I had no clue about, which is people who are out there self catheterizing, which means that they can’t urinate them freely and therefore they have to insert things to help drain the bladder.

And then also people can’t poo. And they, for a whole variety of reasons, by the way. And that crosses both of these, obviously crossover men and women. It’s not gender specific. And I didn’t understand about, I’d never heard about a stoma or an ostomy bag or what on earth is that? So the education was immense for me.

And then I was like, oh my goodness. But what do they do? Like, how do you dispose of this? And once again, we’re in the exact same scenario where the manufacturers of the product, which is used for the purpose of completely disregard slash forget slash can’t be bothered with the then what? The disposal bit the afters.

I find it gobsmacking. But anyway, that’s where we are. So I was like, my goodness. Okay, so. That wasn’t a massive leap for me to just kind of go, okay, well we need a bigger one for these purposes and it needs to, and yes, there is a patent on that as well because you have to be very, again, opening it with one hand, but it’s much bigger so that the patent linked to the Fab Little Bag wasn’t going to work for this ’cause it was too big.

So yeah, I had to do more inventing. But the purpose of it is really about living life without limits. If I can summarise it like that, because people who they have a stoma. They have to use the ostomy bags and stuff and or have to have leak problems.

So they need a sheath or a pad to wear when they’re out and about in particular, it means that they don’t want to go out and about and their world starts to close in and loneliness and depression. And like, it has a massive effect on people, particularly if, for example, the reason, so people who’ve had chronic illnesses all their life and get a stoma are often quite joyful about their stoma and have a very good relationship with that because they’re suddenly not in a, that, that pain anymore. But if you’ve suddenly, like was diagnosed with bowel cancer or something, and then you wake up from surgery and you’ve got a stoma, there’s a lot of resentment about the change to your life as a result of that.

And that’s really difficult. And I speak with some knowledge of that because a very, very, very close family friend that happened to, and he never made friends with that. It was always a problem and awful and, you know, a, a real negative for him. So that was really interesting to me, the difference, it’s not just, oh, you’ve got a stoma, you feel like this.

There’s a whole range of feeling to do with that. The, the purpose of HyGeeni is to transform all those many awkward moments where you’re stressing about, well what if this and what if that? And it’s going to smell, and I don’t want this and I don’t want that. Transforming those awkward disposal moments into confident experiences so that you can live your life without limits.

You can live your life without restriction based on is it going to smell, is it going to leak? You know, all that kind of practical stuff. So the response we got when we went to our very first stoma conference last year was phenomenal. And I honestly was emotion, like properly emotional. It really was properly emotional.

I had one lady and she’s in the little video that we use, she’s like, thank you. Because now this just helps my 7-year-old who has a stoma going to school, it just makes it that much better, you know? And when, and you’re like, my silly little bag that seals up, you know, is actually changing the life of a 7-year-old and her mother to be more relaxed at school, taking away one, one aspect that is anxiety ridden, job done, happy, but, you know, that’s it.

That’s what it’s there for. HyGeeni is, I haven’t really talked about it much or focused on it much, but this is the year 2026 is welcome to the world HyGeeni. ’cause you’re out there to do some good and, uh, we want to spread the joy of giving people back their choices, enabling people to be out and about living their life, getting on with things without stressing about disposal.

Le’Nise Brothers: What’s so interesting is that your, so Fab Little Bag came from an insight, from your experience, and then HyGeeni came from an, a customer insight that you then created.

Martha Silcott: Yeah.

Le’Nise Brothers: A new product. And I think it’s so interesting that you are so connected with your customers that you’re able to say, okay, actually, can we meet, can we talk about this?

Like, how can, how can I help? And I think that’s what people, people love, love that. They love it when companies feel like they’re listening to them as a customer. Especially like when you are a really loyal customer to a product. That’s, I think that’s incredible. I could talk to you for, for ages.

I think what you’re doing is so interesting, but what’s the one thought that you’d love to leave listeners with today?

Martha Silcott: I think the thought I’d like to leave them with is, can I have two? Like one, one is if you are, if you’re sat on something that won’t go away in your head and it’s a niggle that you want to, you know, you want to invent something or create something, it, by the way, an invention doesn’t technically it has to be something brand new to be patented or whatever, but I believe that just improving an existing thing so it works much better is equally valid.

But if you are set on something and it won’t leave you alone, there is plenty of help out there to go and help to give you guidance and talk, take you through the steps and things like that. You can’t, I would say don’t jump in and make sure you really think everything through, because you know, it might seem a glamorous thing.

It is the furthest away from glamour you’ve ever experienced. And it’s the hardest thing you’ll probably ever do other than childbirth if you’re female. But so that’s one on the invention side, I guess. And then on the other side don’t ever feel restricted. There are always solutions to out there to help you to feel like you can live your life, how you want to live it.

Don’t sit on being in too much pain that if that get, you know, insist with your GP that you see a specialist you are, that is your right. Please don’t sit there with undiagnosed endometriosis for years. You know, really insist on that and, start fabbing. Give it a whirl. See what you think. And let me know, because like, as you say, like, we just absolutely love customer feedback.

We do listen, we totally listen and, um, listen, we’re always out there to try and take away barriers. That’s what we want to do.

Le’Nise Brothers: Fantastic. Where can people find you?

Martha Silcott: They can find Fab Little Bag at our FabLittleBag.com website. They can find us in Amazon and they can find us on Ocado if you use Ocado for your shopping.

And I hope if you do not have them in your workplace toilets, then get down to HR and is, and demand that they have them in there, because you will be all these businesses out there, they don’t even realise that they’re polluting the rivers and oceans because 40% of women flush. So you will be helping single-handedly to stop Little Nemo and his family hanging out with the tampons and the pads in the sea, which we want to avoid.

So you can play a really important role by getting your workplace to get Fab Little Bags in the loose.

Le’Nise Brothers: Thank you so much for coming onto the show today, Martha.

Martha Silcott: Absolute pleasure. It’s been a real pleasure talking to you. Thank you for asking such interesting questions.

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Period Story · May 21, 2026

Period Story Podcast, Episode 110, Amy Gaston: Painful Periods Are Not Normal

Did you know that your nervous system can have an impact on your experience of menstruation? I get into all of this and more on today’s episode of Period Story with Amy Gaston, the president of OhmBody, a drug-free wearable device designed to work with the body’s nervous system to naturally support lighter, shorter, more comfortable periods.

In this episode, Amy shares:

The impact of growing up in a conservative Christian household and being a late bloomer on her understanding of her body
Why perimenopause has led her to ask better questions about her health
Her thoughts on innovation in women’s health
The issues that disproportionately affect women and why we have to talk about women’s health, not just health
Why menstruation is a whole body experience
What OhmBody is and why it’s a helpful drug-free way of managing period pain, premenstrual pain, and ovulation pain
How stimulating the vagus and trigeminal nerves can increase the body’s clotting process, and help reduce heavy menstrual bleeding
And of course, the story of her first period

Amy says that painful periods are not normal and that if your period disrupts your everyday life in any way, there is a better solution than normalising this narrative.

Thank you, Amy!

Get in touch with Amy:

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SHOW TRANSCRIPT

Le’Nise Brothers: Hi Amy. Thank you so much for coming onto the show today. Let’s kick off with a question I ask each of my guests, which is tell us the story of your first period.

Amy Gaston: Oh my gosh, yes. Well, first of all, Le’Nise, thank you so much for having me.

This is going to be a fun conversation. Um, my first period, yeah, it’s, it’s a little late bloomed. I, um, was really, really active kid and very, very thin. Um, had a very low body, percent of fat. And I actually didn’t have my first period until I was almost 17. So by then I had had a lot of exposure. All my girlfriends had had periods, you know, it was, I had pubic hair, like I was developing, I mean, I was flat chested still am, but you know, it wasn’t that, but, you know, I was doing the normal things.

I just had not had a cycle. And, um, it was almost like a joke of like, is Amy ever going to, is she going to like, become a woman? Right? So my mom had had a hysterectomy when I was about 12, and so nobody had menstruated in our home for about five years. And while she had bought me the pads and the pantyliners and, you know, there was no real conversation from my mother of like, what to expect, what was going to happen.

I just knew at some point I would bleed from my private areas. Right? So I grew up in a super conservative Christian home, you know, you just didn’t talk about that. I’m the only daughter I have brothers. And so I remember, yeah, I was almost, almost 17, not quite 17, and I remember I was going to the bathroom one day and being like, oh, blood, okay, I guess this is it.

I remember walking out into the living room being like, Hey mom, I think I started my period. She’s like, great, do you know where the pantyliners are? I was like, yep. Great. That was it. That was the conversation. And I remember vaguely that it didn’t last long.

Like I just, you know, and I, I didn’t have this like terrible cramp pains that my girlfriends were having or something that debilitated me. It was uncomfortable, right? Really, period cramp is not comfortable. It’s not supposed to be comfortable. But, um, yeah, so that was really my exposure to that and, and I was really made me fortunate.

Now that I look back, I’m like, oh, there was probably something I probably should have been seeing a doctor about. But, um, I didn’t have a period, but maybe two to three times a year, those first 5, 6, 7 years of my adolescence into adulthood. I was a college volleyball player and I remember having a teammate who was my roommate, sit outside of our bathroom door, our shared bathroom door, walking me through how to use a tampon for the first time.

That’s just not something my mother used or I was supposed to. Again, nobody had menstruated in our home for five years leading up to my period because she had had a hysterectomy. And so yeah, it was just one of those things where I was like, okay, I guess this is it. But I got no real formal understanding. I, I was a pretty good student. I took a, an advanced anatomy and physiology, human anatomy and physiology class my senior year. And the only thing I remember learning about a woman’s body in that class was watching a birthing video that I swear is the reason I’m child free by choice today.

Like that’s my old, you know, everyone knows that moment, right? That you’re like watching a birthing video for the first time in, in, in school and you’re like, what? I no, that’s never, that’s never happening to my, I’m not doing that. That’s not going to be. So it just, I just really had very little education. I just knew that every once in a while I was going to bleed, especially because I wasn’t regular and I just was going to do that.

I, I can remember maybe one college practice where I just felt terrible. Um, and I just told my coach, I was like, Hey, listen, I’m on my period and I just feel like crap. She’s like, okay, great. Do what you can. And it wasn’t until right before I got married that I got on birth control.

It’s the first time I’ve ever seen a gynaecologist ever, which is just wild. I think, I think we know better now, but there just wasn’t, again, growing up in a conservative Christian home, there wasn’t like a reason to see a gynaecologist until you were going to be on birth control to prevent pregnancy when you were getting married.

Regardless of the fact of whether I was sexually active prior to that or not. It’s just what it was. So yeah, that was sort of my introduction into menstruation and what that looked like. And through birth control had some, I was only on hormonal birth control for about seven years until my husband decided to have a vasectomy when we decided to be child free.

And so I was really fortunate in that, but even that process was really interesting for menstruation. My first go at that I bled every other week and I couldn’t stop, and I didn’t know what was happening. So my, you know, we went through like four or five different contraceptive, oral contraceptives before we found one that sort of helped me feel better, but was also making me feel crazy.

And then I got on Depo-Provera and then I didn’t bleed for five years on hormonal birth control because

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah.

Amy Gaston: You know, depo keeps you from doing that. Uh, but since then, since my thirties, I’ve, I’ve sort of regulated out. Um, and now that I understand better in this role, what that looks like yeah, so that’s, I a really interestingly light process, but also I think unique to myself.

And I think, you know, as I hit perimenopause, I think about what are the impacts of not having a regular cycle in my twenties, what did, what’s that impact now having on me through my perimenopausal journey and what does that do to my bone density? You know? So, yeah, it’s just, it’s an interesting pathway.

I’m, I’m really, really fortunate and I’m grateful, but I think it has its own challenges, um, that I’ve been through.

Le’Nise Brothers: That’s really interesting, the changes in your journey from having a period so late and then having it very infrequently, then getting onto hormonal contraception.

Amy Gaston: Yeah.

Le’Nise Brothers: Where you were having these frequent withdrawal bleeds, and then now being on Depa Provera where you don’t have a period and that exploration, as you say, the effects of

Amy Gaston: mm-hmm.

Le’Nise Brothers: Not experiencing that hormonal cycle and what does that do to the brain and to the bones. It’s a fascinating question, and I do think that that part of it is probably underexplored because when we talk about hormonal contraception, we always have to add the caveats. It’s been amazing for women.

It’s amazing, amazing for our freedom, our ability to go

Amy Gaston: that’s right.

Le’Nise Brothers: Further into the workplace, but then when you, part of that conversation has to be, well, what are the side effects? And yeah, it feels like a very tricky conversation,

Amy Gaston: especially light of today and where we are and the recent news, you know, just everything that’s happening in, in this administration in the United States and, and what we’re currently facing with, of, um, abortion, banning, but also like taking away birth control.

Like it’s just a really, to your point, it’s really sensitive. I want your listeners to hear me say, I’m a believer in hormonal birth control. I believe that there is a great power to that. I believe that it, to your point, allows women a choice, allows us to be able to, allows me to be able to sit here as the president of a company, child free, because by choice, because that’s what I decided to do.

And while my husband and I ultimately decided a different pathway to our child-free, you know, existence, hormonal birth control, played a portion of that. And it was really vital for us as I built my career and explored things for that. But also to your point the research behind how do we safely administer birth control?

How do we fully consent to women into what birth control actually does to her body? Right. Um, I heard a speaker once say it’s it’s the longest running experiment on women’s bodies to date, right? Because we’re still, we don’t know what the long-term effects of certain types of hormonal birth control can be for women.

And I think that there’s a safe pathway forward in that, but it’s only going to only going to exist if we are committed as a, as a community and as researchers and innovators and, and and investors to say, women deserve ways to control pregnancy and getting pregnant and not just right. Hormone birth control isn’t just about contraception.

There are a plethora of reasons that women need to be on hormone birth control. But there’s, we’ve got a figure out what’s the safest pathway forward with the fewest amount of side effects to be able to support women not just in their reproductive years, which is where that’s really important. But then post that perimenopausal, menopausal, and then post-menopausal women, how do we support their bodies through that, by whatever we’re doing in this sort of reproductive age gap, you know, of 30, 40 years of a woman’s body.

Le’Nise Brothers: So having gone through this exploration now you’re in perimenopause.

Amy Gaston: Yeah.

Le’Nise Brothers: How has it been now you’re also working in women’s health. How has it been almost, I wouldn’t say you were kind of divorced from your body before. Yeah. But you, as you said, you didn’t have the knowledge that you do now. How have you found this exploration?

You know, you’re interfacing with all of these experts in the space. You are, you know, diving into research and we’ll talk about the OhmBody device shortly. But how has that exploration been for you?

Amy Gaston: Yeah, it’s been interesting to your point of divorcing my body. I think that’s what it was. I just existed and I think a lot of women, especially of our generation, just sort of existed.

This is what happens to your body and you just sort of accepted it. Now that I’m in the women’s health space, I sit in a lot of areas where I’m like, just things were on hormones, right? So for a long time, you know, hormones were hormone replacement. There was fine, and then there was the black box label, and now it’s no longer the black box label.

So it sort of ripped it off and now sort of this wild, wild west of what is this? And so I’m really curious in that space. I had a doctor, um, the other day, I was just having a conversation, she’s not even my physician. And I was describing to her sort of what I’ve been going through in perimenopause in terms of these like breakthrough bleedings, how I responded to hormonal birth control.

When I was exploring through all those different pill options, oral, oral options. And I was just describing like where I see my energy fall, where I see my energy rise, what I feel like I can push through. And she said, Amy, I think your progesterone is low. Like, I’d be really curious if we just put you on some progesterone.

And I was like, okay, well tell me more about that. So every conversation I have sort of, it’s like an onion, right? It sort of peels back as I share, Hey, these are, these are the symptoms I’m having, this is what my body’s experiencing. I had never bled heavily ever through my process. And then I became perimenopausal and I was like bleeding, like flooding off out of a disc after two hours, which is just like an insane thing to say, right?

A disc is supposed to hold ten-ish hours of bleeding. And I just wasn’t doing that. As I’m going through this, I know that the privilege that I have to explore these sort of options and these conversations is because of the role that I sit in. I sit next to some of the greatest minds in women’s health every day, and I, I, I have a phone numbers to every major innovator in the space right now, and that’s a privilege to me, and I recognise that.

I think where that leads me to is, well then how do we get that information to the women not privileged enough to sit next to the greatest minds in women’s health every day? And I think that’s the piece that continues to drive for us at OhmBody. You know, we’re more than just a device company. We’re really a company that wants to be about educating women on, there is more to know about your body than what you learned in a human anatomy class or what your mom may or may not have told you because of her own limited experience and her own limited, you know, exposure, um, to her body and what was happening.

So I think, so it’s twofold. One is, is for me, it’s, it’s this incredible privilege to explore and to still understand like, gosh, there’s, I’ll ask questions of doctors and they’re like, Amy, we don’t know the answer to that. I’m like, oh, okay, great. Well then what are we doing to find the answer to that? But then also it makes me acutely aware of the millions of women sitting at home every day experiencing things that are just like me, or worse than me, or different than me, that have no idea where to go next for an answer, right?

Because they’re doctors. Maybe he’s a 67-year-old white gynaecologist who hasn’t been to med school in 40 years, and who hasn’t committed to keeping up with more than just what a medical journal tells him he has to update in his medical practice, right? He’s not looking to be innovative. And I say he, it could be a woman.

I, I don’t want to be sexist in that but that’s her only exposure. Or she lives in a, because she lives in a medical desert, right? It’s the only OB within a hundred miles and he’s the same dad that’s delivered four generations of babies, right? Like that. How do we get to that woman? How do we empower that woman to know what to do with her body when she knows in her gut that what’s happening to her cannot be normal, right?

Even though everyone around her says, well, that’s just getting old, brittle bones is normal for women. Or going bat shit crazy on someone over a piece of egg is, is normal and like that isn’t, and there are better ways for it. So I think that’s, that’s where I kind of sit in this exploration of this twofold of like what it does for myself, but then what, what I hope for women.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah.

Amy Gaston: Everywhere.

Le’Nise Brothers: You mentioned the word innovation and your work is heavily focused on innovation in women’s health. We know that the research in to women’s bodies, not just talking about hormones and menstrual health, but every aspect of women’s health lags quite far behind the research done on men’s health, even like on animal health.

Can you talk about the innovation piece? When you look at the work that you do, what, when you, in your head, what are you thinking when you think about how, where innovation is now and where you want it to get to?

Amy Gaston: Yeah. Um, that’s a, I think that’s a really complicated question. I think that I’m really, really proud of the work that’s been done in women’s health innovation to date.

I think even in the last five years of these, like, it’s almost like it’s sort of supercharged, right? Women’s health is sort of this hot new, it’s not even new, but new to other people who haven’t been in it, right? It’s sort of this space. Everyone sort of wants it. It’s, it’s in vogue, it’s cool, it’s whatever.

And so you’re getting this sort of influx of money. The trouble with that is that we’re so far behind that we have to make sure we recognise that we don’t get, we don’t celebrate too early, right? We don’t say like, well, look at all that’s been happening. That’s great, and we stop. What that should do is, is really encourage us and inspire us to keep going because there are still years and years of us being behind in the curve, right?

Of us not being included in clinical trials, of us not being thought of as the first reason for a solution. And in full transparency, OhmBody was not created originally with women in mind. Like the technology that supports OhmBody started in a space that was very different. But because of those results, we had co-founders who were like, oh wait, this is a women’s health initiative product that we can transition over.

So even for us, it was a, like a happy accident, but since then, you then double down and you really drive into it, right? All of our clinical research. So I think that’s the part for me that’s really interesting in the innovation spaces. I hear these women and I know that it comes from a good spot.

They’re like, I just want a world where it’s not women’s health, it’s just health. And I would really caution us to to not remove the label of women’s health from women’s health, like the women from women’s health, because there are things that disproportionately, singularly and uniquely affect women.

And that will always be the case. It will always be the case. And I think it’s, you know, you, you look at even just societally, right? And, and I’ll say this, like racism still exists, but if we don’t call out racism, if we don’t talk about it, then it’s not there. It doesn’t make the problem go away.

We just stop talking about it, right? Like, we have to address the issue. We have to call it for what it’s, and we have to call women’s health. What? It’s, it’s women’s health, right? Men don’t menstruate. So menstruation is a women’s health specific thing. Women, heart disease kills women faster than anything else on the planet, faster than men.

So that to me is a women’s health issue. We have to address heart disease in women differently than we address heart disease in men. Not that men aren’t, that research shouldn’t continue, but it doesn’t mean that we lump it all together because when you lump it all together, it’s real easy for the people with the loudest voices, which at this point are men, to be able to then suppress things that don’t directly affect them, that don’t directly impact them.

And so I think for me, in innovation, when I look at innovation where it’s going, I think for me it’s not a feminist, well, it’s about women. No, it’s because it actually is about women. And I want innovation for the future that’s specific to things that are disproportionately uniquely or solely for, like, I, I want that I want that to be very specific.

And I want us not to be afraid to call it a women’s health innovation because we think, well, people feel like it’s too niche. Women are, 51% of the population is not niche. So let’s call it freaking women’s health. Sorry, that’s my soap box. I hope that’s okay. No,

Le’Nise Brothers: I love it. I love it. I interviewed Marina Garner.

Oh, she’s

Amy Gaston: great. I love her. Oh, she’s so lovely.

Le’Nise Brothers: And, um, in her book, she talks a lot about the issue that women face when they speak to VCs.

Amy Gaston: Mm-hmm.

Le’Nise Brothers: And they’re trying to get funding and

Amy Gaston: Yeah.

Le’Nise Brothers: There’s a story that she tells about going into, someone going into a boardroom and someone, a man said, I don’t want to hear the word vagina before 9:00 AM

Amy Gaston: on a Monday.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah.

Amy Gaston: Yeah.

Le’Nise Brothers: As you say, we’re 51% of the population.

Amy Gaston: Mm-hmm.

Le’Nise Brothers: And yet, and yet, and yet,

Amy Gaston: and yet, and it’s interesting, I, I was speaking on a panel once and I got asked the question, why do I think that women’s health has remained taboo? Like, why is that, Amy, why do people, not, to your point, why do men not want to talk about vaginas on a Monday morning business meeting?

And, and my response was that for a very long time, the only people making decisions about health and innovation and investment were men. And that’s the reason that it’s remained taboo. And while I think it is getting better and we’re trending in the space, it can easily change as we’re seeing across multiple places of things that are happening in the world today.

Right. We have to be very committed. And again, it’s not an angry place. I want to caution us. Right. I’m really struggle with women who sit and just want to talk shit and just like be angry. I’m like, it’s okay to be upset, but then, then what? Then let’s go find a solution to the problems that we’re talking about.

We talk about this a lot with women currently, and I’m really grateful to be surrounded by thought leaders who think like this is, it’s one thing to identify the problem, but then we have to go solve for it. And I think that’s the part that we’re trying to do at OhmBody, is we recognise that there’s an issue.

The only current methods of or before OhmBody to dealing with heavy menstrual bleeding, were surgical and pharmaceutical and women deserve better than that. We have to give them options that are not shoving something down their throat or cutting something out of them, right? Or burning something.

Right? And so we recognise the problem and we’re like, okay, well then what is the solve? And I think that’s the other piece is, is we have to be committed to the same. It has to be women’s health. Even things that do affect men, they’re still affecting it differently. So it’s got a be women’s health. But then two, we can’t get stuck in this. Like it’s not this like buckle down and push men out. It’s no, how do we bring this to the forefront? Because men can solve for problems too. They’re brilliant as well. So let’s, let’s link arms and go solve for problems for humanity that include women.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah. So talking about solving problems, the work you’re doing is really interesting in the women’s health space around pain and expression of pain and how pain is being managed.

I wanted to talk about all of that, but for listeners who aren’t aware, the focus of the OhmBody device is the nervous system and the parasympathetic and the sympathetic nervous system. Can we just take a step back and

Amy Gaston: Yeah.

Le’Nise Brothers: Just kind of walk listeners through what those are for those who might not be aware.

Amy Gaston: Yeah, for sure. So your autonomic nervous system is really how your body experiences both internal and external stressors, right? So constantly things inside of you and outside of you are bombarding you. And it, as you’re listening, if you’re like a mom of four kids, you’re like, oh, constantly, right?

You’re like, oh, I’m just in this thing. Um, so your autonomic nervous system has two sides. It has the sympathetic side, which is your fight or flight. That’s your survival mechanism. When your body senses danger, your body goes into a defensive mode, and that’s for survival. And that’s years in millennia of, of evolution to get us to a point, to be able to stand where we are, right.

Um, and so whether that’s you’re sick and you have an elevated temperature, so your sympathetic tone’s going to rise so that your body can manage that. Or there’s some sort of external danger, right? A stressor, even things like riding on a rollercoaster, right, can drive your sympathetic tone upward, right?

So you’re in this fight or flight, the opposite side of that is your parasympathetic tone and it’s your rest, relax and digest. So it’s really to help you calm. You want high levels of parasympathetic tone when it’s time to go to sleep. Right. And that’s how your body’s going to rest. And your body wants to find a balance.

There are times when it is necessary for your parasympathetic tone to rise again, when you’re in danger or you’re, you’re an athlete right before performance. Right? We want that sympathetic tone high. But again, as I mentioned before, your parasympathetic tone sometimes needs to be high and elevate like in sleep or when I need to focus and concentrate.

Right? But you’re constantly in this like up and down, up and down. So in menstruation, it’s really interesting. We, we talk a lot about, people think, oh, you’re just bleeding and that’s just it and you’ve got some cramps and you’re going on. But when in actuality, menstruation is really a whole body experience and it impacts your, uh, your autonomic nervous system in such a way for some women, really their sympathetic tone, that fight or flight is really an overdrive.

And so you get this over overcorrection in inflammation and, and in your body trying to essentially survive. I know that sounds traumatic, but survive this traumatic moment of you bleeding. So for some women who are heavy menstrual bleeders or even moderate bleeders, right? If you were, I always say this, if you were to bleed as much as you do from your uterus, if you’re heavy menstrual bleeding, bleed from any other part of your body, you’d be in the hospital receiving treatment.

But we don’t do that because it’s menstruation. And that’s not how we think about it. Right? It’s funny ’cause you’ll meet men who are like, oh, it’s just like a drip. I’m like, no. It’s like a faucet got turned on. It’s just coming, right? Because they just don’t understand and bless their hearts, but they just don’t.

And so, but your body is responding to that. And while your body knows menstruation is normal, it’s still going to send stress responses because, and you’re bleeding too much. Maybe your cramping’s too high. Like your body’s trying to be like, okay, how do we bring us, bring her back into balance? And some bodies do that really well and some bodies just don’t.

So when your body’s stuck in sympathetic tone, it can be really, really stressful on your body.

Le’Nise Brothers: Then we talk about the vagus nerve.

Amy Gaston: Yeah.

Le’Nise Brothers: Vagal toning and that moving between

Amy Gaston: Yeah.

Le’Nise Brothers: Those two states. And anyone who’s does yoga or practises yoga will be aware, aware of that, the power of the breath to shift into the parasympathetic.

And also that importance of not being stuck in the parasympathetic either.

Amy Gaston: Yeah, that’s right.

Le’Nise Brothers: You know, we always talk about the parasympathetic nervous system and how it’s great and it is great, but there are times where you need to be in the sympathetic, you know, you’re thinking, oh, I’m running for the bus, I’m running for the tube, the subway.

Amy Gaston: Yeah.

Le’Nise Brothers: I need that cortisol, I need that adrenaline.

Amy Gaston: Yeah, you need that shot. And that’s what, that’s right. And that’s what your sympathetic does. And so the vagus nerve is really interesting for your listeners who don’t know, the vagus nerve is the only cranial nerve that leaves your brain and touches every major organ of your body, which is why it serves as a great highway for your nervous system.

So it sort of sends signals from your organs, parts of your body to your brain, and then back and becomes this superhighway is really what we’ve done with these little off ramps. If you’re from the United States, I don’t know if, if London has off ramps on your highways, but we have these like sort of off juts of, of information.

So when you are out of balance for that and those, the, that nervous system isn’t speaking well to each other, then you start to really have some places where you, you get a little funky. Um, and so by, to your point, by activating the vagus nervous system and by bringing sort of some, some balance to it, your body is able to essentially communicate better with each other so that it does what it already does naturally just without all the blockades that can often happen in sort of an out of balance nervous system.

Le’Nise Brothers: Someone listening who experiences really painful periods, painful ovulation, a painful premenstrual experience

Amy Gaston: mm-hmm.

Le’Nise Brothers: Will be really interested in what you said about the drug-free aspect.

Amy Gaston: Yeah.

Le’Nise Brothers: ’cause a lot of my listeners, a lot of the women I work with, they will go to their GPs and they’ll get given the pill, they’ll get given some sort of a strong pain relief.

But as we talked about earlier, there are side effects that come

Amy Gaston: Sure.

Le’Nise Brothers: With those options. And some of them are just fed up and they may have explored a TENS device, but talk about the OhmBody device.

Amy Gaston: Yeah.

Le’Nise Brothers: Mostly how it’s different to a TENS device because we’re very familiar with those machines.

Amy Gaston: Sure, okay.

Le’Nise Brothers: Because they’re used a lot in childbirth. But talk about how that’s different, but, and also how the, the OhmBody works with the nervous system.

Amy Gaston: Yeah, for sure. So those are great comparisons and great questions. So what we’ll start with is what, oh, I’m going to start and go backwards. Is that okay?

OhmBody is a wearable earpiece that goes around your ear and you have a sticky node. So think like a pad, like a, on a TENS unit, the little like electrode pad on the front of your ear, on the back of your ear. Um, and then it’s connected to a small device. We stimulate two nerves at the same time.

The trigeminal nerve, which is how your body manages pain, and then your vagal nerve, which is, we just talked about, all of this balancing of your nervous system. So by stimulating both of those together, we’re actually able to allow the body to return to a state of balance. So we’ve talked about this, right?

So we’re stimulating the nerves directly, and we’re doing that through the auricular branches, which is just a fancy way of saying the branches near the ear because they’re closer to the surface and easy to access. So we do that together. And so what we’re able to do is raise your parasympathetic tone so your body experiences menstruation in a more stable sense.

So we’re, we’re seeing in some of our research, some systemic inflammation coming down, which again, helps reduce the pain. Again, we’re still studying all of that. What does that mean exactly? And then on the other side, we’re actually able to sense signals through TAN, which is the technology behind OhmBody down to the splenic nerve.

The spleen holds anywhere between 20 to 30% of your body’s platelets at any given time. Platelets help you clot. So if you cut your finger and you don’t bleed out, it’s ’cause the platelets showed up and formed a scab and clotted and kept you from, from losing too much blood. And so that same process of platelets coming and, and essentially creating a thrombin or a clot is happening in your uterus when it’s shedding.

That’s how your body makes sure you don’t bleed out, right? Some bodies do that really efficiently and some do not really efficiently. And so we do is in the spleen. When we send these little signals, we’re actually able to prime those platelets that are running through there in such a way that when they show up to a point of injury, so in this case the shedding of your uterine wall, we’re actually able to clot faster, stronger, and for longer.

And what that helps do is to slow the amount of blood loss that you’re having during menstruation. This is really important for women who are heavy menstrual bleeders. There’s a, a bleeding disorder called Von Willenbrand disease. It’s really common in women. And in this, these women can lose up to a litre of blood every time they menstruate.

Women only hold four to four and a half litres of blood in your body. So imagine losing a quarter of your blood every time you menstruate every month through your cycle and how devastating that is. And so these women just, they need to lose less blood. Doctors everywhere will tell you you are healthiest when you hold as much of your own blood in you as possible, right?

Your body needs that blood for lots of different reasons. And so you want to keep as much as you can. So if we’re able to reduce the amount of blood loss for women who experience more than 80 millilitres of blood loss during the menstruation, that’s just going to help in the overall health and wellbeing of a woman, which then in turn helps them be able to recover better, right after through painful periods.

And so we do those two things. How are we different than a TENS unit? There’s nothing, TENS units are great. I, I’m a former athlete. I’ve used lots of TENS units on muscles that needed help and a shoulder that wouldn’t raise ’cause you know, I hit too many volleyballs. TENS units are a direct muscle stimulator, so they’re targeting the muscles specifically.

So they have some TENS units that you can put around your stomach to help reduce cramping. And that’s because it’s directing and dealing with the muscle itself. So it’s sort of a surface level. It’s the same thing that a painkiller does, right? It sort of deals with just the localised pain that you’re experiencing.

When we use TAN, which is trans auriculor neurostimulation, which is the the tech behind OhmBody what we’re doing is we’re actually addressing the entirety of the nervous system. So we’re getting to the root cause of what’s causing you to feel what you’re feeling, causing you to experience the symptoms that you’re feeling.

And so it’s really about addressing the body itself as opposed to just a symptom. I think that’s the, the most basic way of saying, of explaining it.

Le’Nise Brothers: I’ve been working in this space for about 10, 15 years now, and this really feels innovative. I’ve seen a lot of different things and I love the fact that it’s drug free.

I love the fact that someone who puts it around their ear, they can feel it. It’s very empowering, you know, you put something on, you can feel the effects.

Amy Gaston: Yeah.

Le’Nise Brothers: Someone with endometriosis, which we know is a condition that has no cure at the moment . Where they can experience pain past, past their final period.

Amy Gaston: Yeah.

Le’Nise Brothers: Because of the growth of the lesions.

Amy Gaston: Mm-hmm.

Le’Nise Brothers: They might be listening thinking, oh, I love the sound of this. Is this something that, we talk about vagal toning and really priming the nervous system. Is this something that help, will help train the nervous system to be more adaptable over time and then lessen symptoms over time so eventually you don’t have to use the device?

Amy Gaston: Yeah, that’s a really interesting question and one we’re really curious about. So, while we haven’t studied specifically patients with endometriosis, so I want to be really clear, we do have users with endometriosis who have shared incredible feedback and incredible results.

But clinically, I want to speak to what we’ve done clinically because I think that’s really valuable.

Le’Nise Brothers: Mm-hmm.

Amy Gaston: Our last pilot study, we did a month over month study where women did a baseline month without OhmBody and then had two consecutive months of, of therapy where they were at two hours every day they menstruated.

So this is very specific to heavy menstrual bleeders, but these women also score high on the pain scale, cramping, gastric upset anxiety. So they’re, they have these scores right? What we saw month over month was a reduction across those symptoms. Now the bleeding reduction stayed about the same. And so that mechanism is, is something that we’re like, okay, we think we’ve figured that part out.

But across the menstrual symptoms scale, right? So in cramping, anxiety, sleeplessness, cognitive fatigue, right? We actually saw month over month declines in those categories, which is really exciting for us. And we’re like, okay, what does that indicate? And the science makes sense, right? If you over time can support your nervous system in such a way that it can rest and essentially repair itself and really feel like it’s not constantly in a state of fight or flight, it would make sense that you would eventually get to a point where you’re seeing sort of your body managing it better.

Now, will you eventually be able to just completely come off of OhmBody or a a TAN device? We don’t know, but we’re really excited to find out. We’re currently our parent company, Spark Biomedical is doing a, a pivotal study currently where we’re taking 80 women nationwide. It’s our first pivotal study where we’re studying the effects on heavy menstrual bleeders.

But we’ve got all these scale pain scales across all the symptoms of and and PMS and uh, and they’re going to have three months of treatment. So we’re really excited to see what that continues to do. The science suggests that yes, we’re going to continue to see this reduction. Now where does it cap? We don’t know.

And we think it’ll be different for every woman. And that’s what I love about OhmBody is we recommend a two hour a day everyday you menstruate or have symptoms. So if you have PMS leading up to, and, and that’s when you’re cramping your symptoms to the worst throw, throw that on. And while we recommend two hours, we have users that use it for three, four, we have some users, especially some of our users who have really severe endometriosis that will wear it all day ’cause it’s the only thing that, that relieves any sort of symptom. It provides any sort of symptom relief for them. So what I love about it is because of the safety efficacy of what we, of what our device is, there’s no adverse response to wearing it longer. So if your body needs extra, because let’s face it, when there are days where I’ve just had a really shitty day and my body feels extremely tired, and oh, I just happen to also be on my period, my body’s going to need a little extra support.

And I think that’s okay. And so we, we love this idea. I love what you said about, empowering women to like, take control. Like that’s what own body is about, is saying, Hey, here’s a technology that we know is going to support a balance autonomic nervous system. Let your body tell you what it needs because every single woman is going to be different.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah, exactly. Everyone, every single woman is different.

Amy Gaston: That’s right.

Le’Nise Brothers: And we all experience pain differently. We all experience menstruation differently. You mentioned that you have different use cases of the device. You mentioned heavy menstrual bleeding. You mentioned that some of your users do have endometriosis.

Are there any success stories that you can share?

Amy Gaston: Yeah, I guess if it depends on what you define as success, I think success is women being able to get back to their lives. That, to me is, is success. We have a professional athlete who’s one of our ambassadors who’s using our device. And she, you know, what’s interesting about female athletes, is that while their bodies may be experiencing a painful period or heavy period, because we’re women, we just find ways to still perform because that’s just what we do and that’s how we, how we live life.

But for me in that space, after she used it during a championship season where she was playing a tonne and, and her team’s competing, she came back and was like I’ve never had this much energy on my period. And to me, that’s a success story. This is a professional athlete whose entire livelihood is on how she performs on the field every time she gets out there, regardless of whether she’s sick or is menstruating.

And the fact that she could come back and say, this is more energy than I’ve ever, than I’ve ever had. That’s a success story. We have another user, um, we have one user who is in her forties, mom of four kids, perimenopausal and, um, her varicose veins traditionally, when she has a period flare up pretty bad enough that she like can’t get out of bed, it’s very painful.

And using OhmBody, she doesn’t have those anymore. We can’t explain why yet. We don’t know yet. But that’s an interesting piece where we take it and I take it back to our science, our research team, and I’m like, can someone please look into why this is happening? She got to go back to be a mom. That’s a success story.

We have one clinical patient from our first trial who shared, you know, the first three days of her period, she’d never leave the bed. Not ever. Like, it’s just that, it’s not it. And the first time using, um, our technology, she got out of bed on day one and actually caught her teenage son playing a video game.

He was not supposed to be playing, he was supposed to be doing homework. And when she walked out of the room, he said, wait, I thought you were on your period. She said, I am. To me, that’s a success story. Day one, she got on her period and got to parent. You know what I mean?

Le’Nise Brothers: Like, it’s not a success story to her son.

Amy Gaston: No, not a success story to her son, but to moms everywhere, you’re like, yes, I can come back to parents. You know, like living life. Like those are the success stories for us. You know, we get people who say, you know, medication is really hard on my stomach and I can’t take it. And OhmBody is something that, that has helped me be able to manage these symptoms that I’ve had for a long time and, and what I’m experiencing without drugs.

And, and oh, by the way, that also helps me not have ulcers because these drugs are really hard on our stomachs. Again, we’re not anti-drug and we can be used in conjunction with the hormonal birth control you’re taking, with your IUD. Like, you can have a hormonal IUD and not have a period, but still have symptoms and still cramp and still do those things, right?

Like your body can still experience that. So we’re really seen as either a standalone, because maybe you have a 15-year-old daughter whose periods are so bad, but the last thing you want to do is put her on hormonal birth control at 15. So it can be a standalone, it can be for the woman who’s on birth control because you know, she doesn’t want to get pregnant or whatever other medical reason she’s on, but she’s still experiencing really severe conditions or symptoms.

Well then let OhmBody be a companion to that, right? So it, that’s what we really love is like, we’re not here to replace birth control. We’re not here to replace the things your doctor is offering in that. But if we can help alleviate some of that in spite of the treatment that you’re already getting, that’s really valuable to us.

Le’Nise Brothers: What do you have coming up next? Anything else coming up in the pipeline?

Amy Gaston: Yeah, so for us, it’s not really about another device, it’s about what’s the next indication that’s right for us to research. Because here’s the thing that’s really important to us, Le’Nise and, and why I love working at Spark Biomedical, our parent company.

We’re a science first company. We want to be able to clinically tell you this is what’s happening and this is why. And it’s really important to us that we stand on and behind our science. There’s a lot of, as you know, a lot of snake oil in women’s health, right? There’s just like this predatory behaviour from brands around really trying to jump on these really vulnerable populations of women who’ve been looking for answers, right? So it’s really important to us that we don’t add to that noise. And so while we love hearing from users that it helps with my endometriosis, it helps with my varicose veins, those are really great. We want to be able to scientifically prove why that is and we want to have studies that show that.

So that’s really what we’re focused on, is we have an incredible technology that we think we’ve only reached the tip of the iceberg of like what it could actually do. Our next sort of phases are continuing to study indications that are specific in women’s health, um, and where our device can be, can best be, um, supportive and, and be a solution.

Le’Nise Brothers: And is the device available only in the US at the moment?

Amy Gaston: Currently only in the US. We’ve got a target again my hope is next year as you know, uh, regulatory across different countries, it’s just challenging and it should be, and it should be hard for companies to have to like, you know, they have to prove things.

We do have a line of sight into, um, expansion into Europe, specifically in Asia. But yeah, US only market currently but direct to consumer. So if you have US listeners, um, they can go to ohmbody.com and purchase it today and use their FSA and HSA dollars.

Le’Nise Brothers: Great. So ohmbody.com and all the links will be in the show notes.

What’s the one thought that you’d love to leave listeners with today?

Amy Gaston: Oh, it’s always an interesting question, but the one I really love to leave, and we have some really great health expert advisors that shout this from the rooftops. Painful periods are not normal. And if you, and some amount of cramping is normal, some amount of discomfort is normal.

But if your period disrupts your everyday life in any way, there is a better solution for that. And whether that’s OhmBody, that’s not OhmBody, whatever that is, you should be having a conversation with your doctor. I think we’ve been in this world as, you know, Le’Nise, like when you go to your doctor, at least in the United States, they’re asking you how long has it been since your last period?

And for how long did you bleed? Very rarely, if ever have I ever been asked how much do I bleed during that period? Um, how much pain am I in? And I think we have to start changing that narrative and stop telling young girls, well, this is just part of womanhood. Welcome to being a girl. Like, we have to stop that narrative.

I have a 14-year-old niece, um, who started her period just over a year ago. And, and really, and that’s the last thing I ever say to her. Like I don’t ever say, well, this is just part of being a girl. Um, we talk a lot about we’re going to find a solution and someday you won’t have to deal with what we dealt with at her age.

And so I think it’s just important. Painful periods are not normal. They may be common, but they’re not normal. And, and it’s incumbent upon us to not only take up that torch for ourselves, but for the next generation as well.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah. Everything you’re saying, I’m just nodding along, but painful periods are not normal.

That’s basically the heart of the work that I do, so Yeah. I love, I love hearing you say that.

Amy Gaston: Yeah.

Le’Nise Brothers: You mentioned the link to get to the OhmBody website. Are there any other places where people can find out more about the OhmBody device?

Amy Gaston: Yeah, follow us on social. It’s Ohm.Body.

But find us on TikTok, Reddit, Instagram. We’re also on LinkedIn, so if you’re a business out there and you’re like, man, I I want to support the women that work for me or in your company. We’ve got some really great opportunities for businesses to link arms with us.

Um, and to be able to empower their employees or physicians, um, and their, their individual clinics. We’re across the board, but reach out. We have a really I think, vocal community around it. I think this is a space women are finally like, okay, this is a normal thing to talk about.

Let’s have a conversation. So come join us in the community there and, and ask all your questions.

Le’Nise Brothers: Great. Thank you so much for your time today, Amy.

Amy Gaston: Of course, of course. This has been a blast. Thanks for having us.

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Period Story · May 14, 2026

Period Story Podcast, Episode 109, Dr Sarah Hill: Believe Your Body

We’ve got a corker for you today! I’m so pleased to share my conversation with Dr Sarah Hill, the author of the books How The Pill Changes Everything: Your Brain on Birth Control and The Period Brain: The New Science of the Luteal Phase and How To Thrive Through It on today’s episode of Period Story.

In this episode, Dr Sarah shares:

Why her experience as a psychologist led her to write two books on the effects of women’s cycling hormones and the brain
Her thoughts on biological essentialism and how our biology, including our hormones, influences what we do
Why progesterone is underrated, including the amazing fact that our peak progesterone levels are up to 250 times higher than our peak oestrogen levels
Why we need to eat more in the second half of our menstrual cycle
Why PMS is not a pathological condition, but an inevitable consequence of experiencing hormonal changes in a world that wasn’t created with female bodies in mind
What the vagus nerve is and how vagal nerve stimulation can be a helpful treatment in decreasing the symptomology of PMDD, perimenopause, and heavy menstrual bleeding
And of course, the story of her first period

Dr Sarah says that it’s important to learn to listen to your body and trust what it’s telling you, so you believe your body.

Thank you, Dr Sarah!

Get in touch with Dr Sarah:

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SHOW TRANSCRIPT

Le’Nise Brothers: Hi, Sarah, thank you so much for coming onto the show today. I’m so excited to speak to you. I’ve been a fan of your work since your first book. So let’s get started with me asking you the question that I start each episode with, which is tell us a story of your first period.

Dr Sarah Hill: Okay, so this is, it’s embarrassing.

As I’m sure everybody’s story has at least a little undercurrent of that. But I was about, I think I was about 12 and a half and I had, um, I had this like, crampy feeling. I was in home ec like home economics class, which is like where you learn to sew and cook. Um, and I was in that class and I felt kind of crampy and, and I was like, thought maybe I had something gastrointestinal going on.

And so I went and excused myself to the bathroom. And I went to the bathroom and I saw that I got my period and I was horrified. I was horrified and I didn’t want to tell my mom. And I didn’t want to tell my mom because I was afraid that she was going to make a big deal of it. Because, you know, when she first explained the idea of like puberty and everything, to me it was all of this idea of like, you know, becoming a woman.

And I was kind of a tomboy and I like had absolutely no interest in becoming a woman. I was afraid that it would mean that I had to start wearing pantyhose, you know, I just like, I thought that it was going to mean this whole set of expectations for me that I just didn’t want anything to do with. And so I actually, I didn’t tell my mom about it until several months after I got it.

So I went to my cousin’s house and got menstrual products. And so, ’cause she was older than me and so, so I would steal her menstrual products. Well, I wouldn’t steal them ’cause she would give them to me. She would like surreptitiously give them to me on the side. ’cause I told her, you can’t tell your mom because then she will tell my mom.

And so then I finally, months after I got my period, I was like, finally, I’m like, I’ve gotta tell my mom. And so I, and I was agonised over it. I was agonising over it because I was just so embarrassed and it just felt so personal. And then I was also, like I said, I was afraid it was going to be this whole set of expectations that that I didn’t want, like they, it didn’t feel like it fit me. It was this whole thing. And who knew that all those years later, you know, that I would be somebody who talked so openly about, you know, periods and, and everything related to women’s cycles and hormones.

Le’Nise Brothers: How did your mom eventually find out?

Dr Sarah Hill: Well, I told, well, I told her, and then I also, I did tell her that I, that it had happened a while ago and she was just like, why in the world did you wait so long to tell me about this? Like, what did you think? Like, what did you think I was going to do? And um, and I told her, I was like, you know, I, this whole idea of like becoming a woman or whatever, I’m like that just like, I, it’s just so cr it felt cringey.

Like the, the word cringey wasn’t a thing back in the nineties, you know, when I got like nine, I think it was probably, it had to have been 1990 that I got my period. ’cause I was born in 78. And if you do the math, like that word wasn’t around, but like, I wish that it would’ve been around ’cause that would’ve exactly described how I felt.

The whole experience around talking about periods with my mom. It just felt cringey. Like, oh, oh, like, like stop talking about becoming a woman. That’s the worst thing I’ve ever heard. And, and, um, and then flash forward here I am, I who would’ve thought.

Le’Nise Brothers: Was there a point where you started to be comfortable with having a period?

Dr Sarah Hill: I mean, I, I don’t know that I ever felt super uncomfortable with it. You know, like, it wasn’t so much the fact that I had a period as it was all of this like, conversation around womanhood. You know, it was like, like everything that, that, that, womanhood meant to me seemed like something that I just sort of rejected and not because, you know, and I wasn’t like a super tomboy, right?

So like, I, I didn’t play sports. I wasn’t into cars or trucks or, you know, in the, in the way that other tomboys might be. But I just was not somebody who felt like, you know, I kind of rejected a lot of traditional female type of roles because I’m, I have a very assertive personality and, um, and I’ve always been that way.

And it was just like, I, I thought of this idea of like womanhood as this thing that just didn’t fit for me. And you know, and it’s funny because as I’ve developed and gotten older, I’ve definitely very much settled into my feminine energy, which I, I really love. But it, you know, I wasn’t ready for it.

Like, I wasn’t ready for it when I was 12. I wasn’t, I was just like, I reject this. Like, no, I don’t, like, no, I don’t, I don’t want anything to do with this. I don’t want to wear pantyhose, I don’t want to, I don’t want to be, um, only speaking when spoken to which, you know, isn’t even the type of family I grew up in, my mom always worked, you know?

So it’s like, it’s not even that, that I had these role models of women that I didn’t want to be. It, it wasn’t that at all. I don’t, I don’t even know what it was, honestly, but it was like, I had this idea of womanhood and becoming a woman that just seemed really not fitting with who I saw myself to be.

And so I really wrestled with it. And so, like, the act of bleeding never really bothered me, you know? And, um, and having a period didn’t really, didn’t really bother me. And I’ve, um, except for, so, so here’s a funny story. Um, this is like the worst. So you, you didn’t ask me this, but I’m going to tell you the worst period story that I have, and here it’s

Le’Nise Brothers: okay.

Okay.

Dr Sarah Hill: I was, I was in high school and at this point I had not yet become comfortable with tampons. And and so I was, you know, wearing these, uh, wearing these pads even when I didn’t have underwear that was necessarily very well suited for wearing a pad. And I used to wear these big wide-legged jeans, like these JNCOs and like, if, if, um, if you’re familiar with them, because I was kind of a, I was kind of a club kid, and so I wore these big wide-legged pants and I was in a history class.

I still remember this. And I stood up to leave the classroom and the pad fell down my leg. And thankfully I was able to quickly cover it with my shoe before anybody saw it. But then I had to quickly like, put my backpack over it and like, sort of jam it under and like run out, run outta the room with it.

But I mean, that was, that was like the most horrible thing. But, you know, other than that I’ve mostly been like, okay with the fact that I’ve had a period, you know, my whole life has never been something that I thought, was, was embarrassing. It was just more this idea of like, becoming a woman that I had an issue with because I felt like it, it just didn’t really fit me at the time.

Le’Nise Brothers: And so, given all the work that you do. And we’re going to talk about that in a minute. And all the education that you, that you share, what is your relationship with your period now?

Dr Sarah Hill: Yeah, I mean, I, I welcome it, and, and especially at the age I’m at, you know, I’m in my late forties, and so I welcome it.

I have a lot of women who are in perimenopause, like my friends are in perimenopause, and they’re just excited to get rid of their period. But because I think about the period as just being this sort of endpoint in this process of creating hormones, um, which I love and I’m a huge fan of I, I welcome it, you know, I’m, I’m, I’m happy to have it.

And so, um, I have a very different relationship with my period than I did when I was 12 and a half.

Le’Nise Brothers: So thinking about hormones and your most recent book, which is called The Period Brain: The New Science of the Luteal Phase and How to Thrive Through It, which was released at the end of last year.

The work that you do around hormones is it’s slightly different, which is interesting because a lot of the books in this space are focused on your hormones and then the connection with menstruation or ovulation and the kind of more mechanical side of it, but you focus on the brain, which I think is really exciting because a lot of people don’t make the connection between the effect that our hormones have on the brain.

Mm-hmm. Can we talk a little bit about, firstly, why the brain was the starting point for this book, but also for your, your first book?

Dr Sarah Hill: Yeah. Yeah. Well, the reason is because I’m a psychologist, and so if I was going to write, you know, this is your, these are your breasts on progesterone or, you know, like this is your, these are your breasts on birth control.

I wouldn’t have been well qualified to write that book.

And so, uh, so for me, um, you know, obviously being somebody who’s in in psychology that’s the book I would write. But like a lot of people, I think that I’ve, I’ve had the experience of really not appreciating the role that my hormones play in the way that I experience myself, and then the way I experience the world around me.

And, um, and so it wasn’t until going off of hormonal birth control that I really started to put two and two together in terms of hormonal changes and and the way that they influenced how I experienced myself and the world around me, because I, I, even though I knew about that, yeah, like, I’d read papers, I’d even published papers on the effects of women’s cycling hormones on the way that the, on women’s motivational states in particular, their desire to attract partners near ovulation.

And but even though I like had this awareness of this research, it, it really didn’t hit home for me until I went off of the pill. And then I started to feel so differently. And that was like the wake up call I needed, you know, just sort of like. Duh. Of course this like matters in a really important way, uh, or, or this is, you know, really significant in terms of the way I experience myself, my, my hormones.

And so, yeah, that’s, that’s ultimately what led me to start asking those research questions.

Le’Nise Brothers: Going into those, that new type of research or asking those questions, did you get any pushback on that? What was the response from your colleagues?

Dr Sarah Hill: It’s funny ’cause um, I didn’t really get so much pushback from my colleagues.

Um, there is pushback in the field. I will say that, that you know, when you look in the field of psychology, especially not so much in neuroscience, neuroscience, like, everybody seems a lot more, I think that because they’re in the mechanics of it so much and they don’t think about the experiential, um, I, I think that they’re just, you know, sort of more, um, looking at things almost like an engineer instead of a person, which actually is good when you’re talking about the effects of hormones on the brain.

Because neuroscientists are like, well, of course hormones affect the brain, like there’s, you know, receptors for them everywhere. Whereas when you talk to somebody who studies behaviour and you talk about hormones affecting behaviour, that’s where people get a little bit skittish, where they’re like, wait a minute, are you saying that women are hormonal and are you saying that women shouldn’t be able to vote because they’re hormonal? And it’s like, no, no, no, no, no. You know, just because our hormones influence, uh, our brain and what we do, that doesn’t make us any less rational than men because men have hormones that affect their brains too.

That this, doesn’t compute. But there is still a handful of, uh, people in the social sciences in particular, sort of the social science end of psychology, like social psychology where they tend to be very averse to the idea that hormones affect the brain at all.

Because they don’t want it to be true that women cycling hormones affect women because they think that that’s step one in an argument that women should have their rights taken away. And, you know, and on the one hand, like, I’m very sympathetic to the concerns, right? Because certainly, um, and you know, here in, uh, the United States you know, the political climate is such that women are rightfully fearful of their rights and, um, and their continued rights.

And so I, I, I understand the concern about anything that can be leveraged to take women’s rights away being something that we should be really cautious about discussing. But on the other hand, you know, science just doesn’t support the idea that, um, that women are any less biological than men.

And that means that our biology, including our hormones, influence what we do. And they’re supposed to, I mean, that’s like, just like part of the machinery that, um, that creates the experience of being who we are. And so there is a little bit of a little bit of pushback in, like I said, especially the sort of social psychology side of, of, um, the field, um, when you talk about hormones and their influence on women.

But for the most part, you know, I have to say that, um, I got less pushback than I thought I was going to. Like, I was prepared for the world to come, you know, um, guns a blazing when I published that book, just because for so long we’ve been taught that if you’re going to be a good feminist, that you don’t criticise the birth control pill.

And so when I wrote that book, I was challenging that. And, um, and it ended up landing a lot better than I thought it was going to.

Le’Nise Brothers: It’s so interesting that you mention that because whenever I talk about the pill, I always have to add this caveat that of course it’s been incredible for women.

It’s in been incredible for our freedom and our ability to do more. But…

it, I just wonder about, ’cause you mentioned earlier about the critiques that you’re getting from social scientists, and sometimes when I talk about, again, a caveat is around talking about cycling and cycling hormones. I, I have to talk, you know, everyone has a different experience. This is a framework, but you know, your experience of this might be different and people sometimes call this biological essentialism.

And what do you say? Do you ever hear that?

Dr Sarah Hill: I do, I do hear biological essentialism. And I mean, and to be clear, you know, I, um, because I, my background is, is biology, and I look at things from the perspective of biology and neuroscience. I do tend to be like sort of what, what we would call a materialist, meaning that I think that we can understand everything about human behaviour by looking at the biological gears and sprockets.

I don’t believe that there’s a ghost in the machine. Um, I think that, we can actually understand things down based on their individual parts. And that doesn’t mean that we can predict, you know, what anybody’s going to do at any given moment. Because clearly, you know, we have consciousness and we have free will and all these other things.

These things are just biological, you know, free will is the result of, of synaptic pathways and neurotransmitters and hormones. What our free will decides to do, so like, that can be seen as reductionist, but it, but it’s not. And yet I’ve heard this, this idea being essentialist as well.

Like, well, this means that, that this is all that there is to being female, or that this means that this is what you’re supposed to do because you’re female. And to to all of that, I, I just say no. Like, no, you know, just because we can use biology to explain how things happen and like different contributing factors to things that are happening, um, that doesn’t mean that it’s prescriptive and, and that it’s telling us what we should be doing.

And it, it doesn’t mean that that there’s not agency. It’s like each one of us, you know, and it is like, I, the way I always explain it is that there’s, whenever we make a decision to do something, it’s always a combination of like bottom up like emotional motivational states, things that are unconscious that we don’t have a lot of control over, and then top down cognitive processing, right?

And this is the stuff where it’s like, we make the decision, like, do I eat a hot fudge sundae for breakfast, right? And my motivational states might be saying, yes, like, you really want to eat a hot fudge sundae for breakfast because it’s delicious, right? And then my top down cognitive processes are saying like, no, you’re going to feel terrible in the afternoon and have a sugar crash.

And and you’re a little lactose intolerant and so it’s going to make you feel awful. And so then I make the decision not to do it. Just because we can reduce things and understand things in terms of the constituent parts, the biological parts, that doesn’t take away from any of the magic of, of being human.

Le’Nise Brothers: Mm. You mentioned the word prescriptive and something that people can be prescriptive about is their experience of the, luteal phase and This idea of everyone experiencing PMS. And your book is of basically breaking down these myths and misconceptions around the luteal phase and this idea that we all experience PMS.

Dr Sarah Hill: Mm-hmm.

Le’Nise Brothers: And something that’s really interesting is that in your book, you split the luteal phase into early and mid luteal sub phase and the late luteal sub phase. And that might be surprising to some people who might just label it as PMS or maybe they’re learning the word luteal. And to break it down even further might be like, whoa, what, what do you mean?

Can you say a little bit more about that?

Dr Sarah Hill: Yeah, yeah. And so I wrote this book because when we look at the discourse around cycles and hormones with women, there’s so much conversation around ovulation and oestrogen and like, that’s all that anybody’s ever talking about. And, um, and I was really interested in the second half of the menstrual cycle, um, after ovulation specifically, because this is a time that so many women struggle.

Um, a lot of women report that they don’t feel well, or, emotionally they feel all over the place. And and so I wanted to really get my arms around that and try to understand like, what is actually the function of this? Because so much has been focused on the function of ovulation and sex and, you know, feeling your best and everything else, but we really didn’t know much about that.

And so I wanted to do a deep dive into understanding like, what is it that progesterone is actually trying to get us to do that may in fact be functional. And one of the things that I do in terms of breaking things down into different sub phases is just recognising the fact that for women you know, in the second half of the menstrual cycle when progesterone is rising, which is what happens after ovulation occurs, and that empty egg follicle starts releasing progesterone during that period of time, that’s actually cueing to the body that it’s preparing for the possibility of implantation and pregnancy.

So that means that, you know, your body is starting to put all the pieces together to prepare for the possibility that an egg may implant. And this means remodelling the the endometrial layer and getting that prepared. It means making a bunch of immunological shifts to prepare for the possibility of implantation.

And our body temperature goes up and all of these, all of these things happen. And then after, like if an egg does not implant, so if, um, you know, you reach peak luteal phase where your body’s releasing a bunch of progesterone, if an egg doesn’t implant, then levels of progesterone start to fall.

And that’s actually cueing something completely different in the body. So when progesterone is rising, it’s telling us, Hey, pregnancy might be possible. Let’s gear up and get ready for that. And then when progesterone starts to fall, that’s actually sending a signal to our body that pregnancy did not occur, and now your body has to make this, sort of like the reverse Humpty Dumpty, right? So it’s like instead of putting it all back together again, it’s taking it all, um, back apart and getting it ready for getting the body ready for the possibility of, you know, having to ovulate again. And so these are cueing different things. And so what this means is that the challenges that the body is trying to solve differ depending on where you are in the second half of the menstrual cycle.

And it also, it means you know, what happens, mechanistically during these times is also very different. During the first half of the luteal phase, what you see is that levels of progesterone are rising and progesterone, even though it kind of gets a bad rap, um, and I think one of the reasons it gets a bad rap is that people can confuse it with progestins in hormonal birth control, which really do make people feel pretty terrible.

Um, but endogenous or body produced progesterone is very different than progestins. And one of the ways that it’s different is that when progesterone is being broken down in the body. It releases a very potent, uh, neurosteroid called Allopregnanolone, which, um, has the effect of binding to GABA receptors in the brain.

And these are very calming. And this creates inhibitory neuro transmission, which has the effect of, you know, sort of calming the brain, slowing it down, and it has mood stabilising benefits. And so what we see is when levels of progesterone are rising, you’re getting more of this activity.

You get an increase in calming activity in the brain. But then what happens in the second half of the luteal phase is all of a sudden progesterone levels are falling. And you have all of, these these brain areas that are used to now getting exposure to allopregnanolone and getting this GABA, or we call it GABAergic activity with this like calming activity.

And all of a sudden there’s not as much of that there, right? And so you have all these like, naked receptors and um, and that can create feelings of anxiety, um, that so many women feel, uh, especially in the late luteal phase. And so oftentimes what we see is that you get increased feelings of wellbeing in the early to mid luteal phase, very similar to what we see in women who are pregnant.

‘Cause during pregnancy a lot of women report just feeling sort of calm and that they have a lot of wellbeing and um, they just feel, you know, sort of homey and nesty and good. And you get those same types of feelings early luteal phase. And then as levels begin to decline, that’s oftentimes when for women, the wheels start to come off a little bit emotionally.

Le’Nise Brothers: Building on what you just said about the wheels coming off, you wrote in your book that PMS is an inevitable consequence of experiencing hormonal changes in a world that wasn’t created with female bodies in mind.

And most of us are living in a way that doesn’t account for the effect that cycling oestrogen and progesterone have on our bodies.

Dr Sarah Hill: Mm-hmm.

Le’Nise Brothers: For some people hearing that, that might be quite mind blowing.

Dr Sarah Hill: Yes.

Le’Nise Brothers: Can you say a little bit more about that?

Dr Sarah Hill: Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, what really got me interested in writing this particular book was just this idea of PMS, right?

Which is, you know, sort of this catchall phrase that we have for the way that we feel in the last two, or like one to two weeks of our menstrual cycle. So the two weeks before we have our periods, or the week before we have our periods, or the few days before we have our periods right, during this period of time, women will experience changes in mood and energy levels and food cravings and so on.

And we have this like catchall term PMS that we have for this time. And and I, that seemed really unusual to me that, um, so many women would have something that seems like it’s disordered, right? Like, like how can most of the population have a disorder? PMS? And, um, and so when I really began to look into all of the ways that our sex hormones that cycle, you know, the way that they influence, the way that we experience our bodies and what our bodies are doing and what our body’s needs are, and then the way that we experience ourselves, it, you know, it really made me appreciate the extent to which our body is shifting between a state that’s optimised for attraction and sex, which is what you get during the first half of the menstrual cycle with oestrogen.

And it sort of remodels our brain and our body in a way that’s maximally oriented toward being able to tell the difference between high quality and low quality partners, and also being able to maximally be able to attract those partners and then shifting into the state that’s optimised for implantation and pregnancy, right?

And this is a, you know, the luteal phase, and this is organised by progesterone. And during this time as part of this process by which our body is preparing for the possibility of pregnancy our basal metabolic rate increases by 7 to 11%. Our basal body temperature increases, our sleep needs increase, we get more GABAergic activity, which makes us more sleepy, and it makes us more relaxed. Our amygdala, the fear centre in our brain becomes more interconnected to a greater number of regions of the rest of our brain, um, increasing vigilance to, you know, to keep us safe. And so we’re experiencing all of these changes and and a lot of times we are experiencing these changes which are very functional, right?

Which are preparing our body for the possibility of pregnancy. We experience them as pathological because women have not really been taught to appreciate and understand that they’re cyclic and that, you know, just so you know, if you’re a woman, your sleep needs are going to change across the menstrual cycle.

And just so you know, as a woman, basal metabolic rate increases. And so you need to eat almost like between 150 to 200 extra calories a day in the second half of the cycle just to keep up with your, um, metabolism. And your temperature is going to increase and your sex drive is going to decrease, and you’re going to become more emotionally vigilant and, and your threat detectors are going to go off more frequently.

And we’re not taught any of that. And the result of that is that we all think that we have something wrong with us PMS, right? Because we’re given a one size fits all set of instructions about what we’re supposed to do to take care of ourselves. And, um, and the result is that most of us feel like we’re, there’s something wrong with us, right?

Or that this is this pathological condition and and it’s not. And if we took the steps that, we needed to take to take care of ourselves as we cycle. And actually learned to trust and believe our bodies when they’re telling us what they need, um, then we can avoid a lot of the unpleasantness that many women experience as they cycle.

And just as a case in point on this, you know, one of the things that I talked about is the fact that our basal metabolic rate increases 7 to 11% in the luteal phase relative to the first half of the cycle. And we’re not taught that, right? And instead we’re given a one size fits all, like set of, uh, nutritional guidelines where it’s like, here’s the number of calories you should eat every day.

And so then you’re in the second half of the menstrual cycle and you’re trying to stick to your doctor prescribed, you know, one size fits all set of nutritional guidelines and you’re hungry. And then you start having food cravings because your body is like, eat something for God’s sake, eat something.

And you’re like, no, I, you know, I already ate my prescribed number of calories for the day and I’m doing the right thing. And so then we have food cravings and then we end up binge eating. ’cause like then we, you know, end up in the pantry because we’re hungry and we’ve been trying to ignore our body and what it needs.

And it’s, it’s madness. If women were actually taught that your cycles matter and they influence your biological needs and the in they influence your psychological needs and your needs for closeness and um, and feelings of emotional security then we can ask for what we need and not experience our bodies as, as pathological and not actually create pathology by ignoring what our bodies need.

Le’Nise Brothers: Everything you’re saying, it just makes so much sense to me. But so many women, they struggle with this. They struggle with listening to their bodies. What you said about the basal metabolic rate increasing, I was speaking to a woman this morning and she said, you know, right before my period, I get bloated, I get a bit moody and I get these cravings.

And I said, well, what do you crave? And she said, I don’t know, but I just get hungrier. And I said, but it’s normal. It’s normal to be hungrier. And she, it was like I was blowing her mind. She really, it’s normal to be hungrier. So all of this information that we should know as cycling women, women with cycling hormones.

How can we get this out there? How can more women learn about this?

Dr Sarah Hill: I think that gosh, it would be great if we, if we actually had health education that provided women with this in schools. But, you know, and, and until that happens my hope is that resources that are available, like, like my book like other people’s books, uh, social media even though social media is not a great place to be educated, ’cause there’s also a lot of nonsense out there.

Um, if you are able to, you know, follow people who actually have degrees and you know, experience in, in the areas in which they’re speaking I think that’s a good place to start. But my ultimate hope is that at some point we’re going to see the education system start to really take bodies seriously.

Because I think that it’s not just, you know, I think that the lack of knowledge and awareness around women’s cycling hormones and their impact on women, I think that that’s in a lot of ways just, um, symptomatic of a larger problem where we’re taught almost zero about our bodies. You know, we take health class and it’s all, and it’s just like the food you learn, the food pyramid and like are told to, you know, not sniff paint.

It’s just like this very, it’s like this very basic not particularly compelling sets of, you know, guidelines and, uh, and education about our bodies. But I think that if we really taught people about how their bodies work and how their brains work, and the connection between the brain and the body and the way that the way that we treat our body influences how we feel and experience the world, I think that would make it more salient.

Like it would make people care about it more. And, um, and I also think that it, there, there’s just so much ground to cover, um, that’s not being covered, uh, that I would like to see included in, in health curricula in the schools. Um, that included information about hormones and hormonal changes.

Le’Nise Brothers: So talking about hormones with, we, we know a lot about oestrogen or estrogen depending on where you live

Dr Sarah Hill: Yeah. Depending on where you are.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah. What might fascinate people is hearing the fact that at its peak progesterone levels are 25 to 250 times higher than our peak levels of oestrogen, estrogen.

Thinking about progesterone, you talked about the good side of it and how many things that it does for our body, how many great things it does for our body. I want to talk a little bit about the dark side of progesterone and talk a little bit about PMDD, because this

Dr Sarah Hill: mm-hmm.

Le’Nise Brothers: In the UK there’s a lot of conversation around PMDD, and there actually is a lot of misconceptions, namely that it’s a more severe form of PMS.

And I’d like to hear your, your view on PMDD.

Dr Sarah Hill: Yeah. Yeah. Whenever you have women who are experiencing PMDD, which is characterised by, uh, severe mood changes in the second half of the menstrual cycle that oftentimes, but not always, can also be associated with, with suicidal ideation.

So, I mean, it’s just a really severe set of mood changes that can impair the lives of the women who suffer from it. It is sort of similar to severe PMS. They, they share a lot of, um, a lot of characteristics. But PMDD oftentimes doesn’t respond as well to simple lifestyle interventions, such as, um, for example, getting more sleep in the luteal phase, aerobic exercise, eating a diet that’s anti-inflammatory.

All of these types of things are helpful to everyone. Um, so that will help ease the distress that women feel as they’re moving through hormonal changes. Um, but oftentimes for women with, uh, PMDD it’s more severe than can be addressed with just simple lifestyle related modifications that oftentimes are pretty helpful for women who just experience run of the mill every day PMS. And, um, one thing that PMDD and um, and severe PMS and have in common is that they both seem to be related to sensitivity to hormonal fluctuations. Right. And so, you know, sometimes people think about PMS or PMDD as being related to progesterone, for example, in that it’s having progesterone on the scene that’s creating the problems.

But research really seems to suggest that it’s that some individuals are just really sensitive to rapidly changing hormones. And for those individuals, um, they have their brains and the rest of their bodies have a more difficult time making the necessary adjustments in neurotransmission and otherwise that then lead them to feel really terrible, um, when their hormones are rapidly changing.

Because hormones, as you noted, um, in the luteal phase of the cycle, the hormonal changes that happen are like, almost up to 250% higher than what you get in the, the follicular phase. You have these huge hormonal changes and they’re happening very rapidly. And if you don’t have a lot of resilience, sort of cellular plasticity, that allows you to be resilient to these changes and quickly adapt to, oh my gosh, there’s really high levels of progesterone, oh my gosh, there’s really low levels of progesterone that can create essentially like a physiological cacophony that, that makes these women feel really terrible.

And, um, one thing that’s important to note about this is that, um, you know, if you’re somebody who has sensitivity to hormonal changes, that like means that you’re probably likely to have severe PMS or PMDD, but it also means that you’re likely to experience, um, a greater, you have a greater probability of experience postpartum depression.

You have a greater probability of experiencing difficulty with depression in during the perimenopausal transition. So anytime that there’s rapidly changing hormones, um, it means that you’re going to be at a greater risk. And I think that this is really important for women to know because it’s something that they can get the necessary supports in place, knowing as they’re entering into a new phase of life that this is probably going to be a time when they need to have support.

And so for women who have PMS and PMDD, making sure that they have support and a doctor’s support when they’re going through a postnatal transition, so after having a baby, and then also once they enter into perimenopause, so that way they’ve got a game plan and they already know what to expect, and that way they can seek out help sooner than later.

And so, PMDD and severe PMS are conditions that are the number of treatments that are available for these women is still relatively limited. And, um, and it’s only, in the last I would say 10 years and which is really sad that researchers have really begun to dig into these issues to try to better understand what we can do to better treat these women besides just give them hormonal birth control, which is really palliative.

So a lot of women find a lot of help, like especially women with PMDD by levelling out their hormone production and preventing cycling. They don’t have to worry about hormonal changes, which is what they’re sensitive to and what’s giving them the symptoms. And so hormonal birth control is one option that’s been given to women.

Antidepressants is another, um, solution that has been given to these women, but it’s only within the last 10 years or so that researchers have tried to better understand the actual mechanisms that are responsible for creating this sensitivity to hormonal changes. And are now beginning to explore some different types of treatment options, um, that are non-medication based.

Le’Nise Brothers: So talking about other treatment options, something that you write about in your book is vagal nerve stimulation.

Dr Sarah Hill: Yes.

Le’Nise Brothers: This will be new to a lot of people. Can you say more about this?

Dr Sarah Hill: Yeah, absolutely. So, um, I’m actually really excited about this because my research lab is, is doing some of this research right now.

We’re in the very early phases of it, but we’re looking at whether stimulating women’s vagus nerve can have the impact of decreasing symptomology of PMDD. And we’re also looking at this with perimenopause since the mechanisms of, you know, action are very similar, it’s all about this sensitivity to hormonal changes.

And we are, we’ve proposed that you can decrease women’s sensitivity to hormonal changes and increase what we call their resilience to hormonal changes by increasing the amount of communication that goes on between the brain and the rest of the body. And one of the ways that the brain and the body communicate, um, is through the vagus nerve.

And, uh, the vagus nerve is this, and which is, it’s like Latin for like wandering nerve, but it’s essentially like a big strand of electrical spaghetti that branches down from the brain into the rest of the body, right? And when and, and this is how the brain learns about how the body is doing.

It’s like it gets messages from like the heart, like, Hey, how’s the heart doing? Oh, okay. Look, let’s say the heart’s doing good. Oh, how’s the liver doing? Oh, liver’s doing pretty good. Things are going good there. That’s great. How are our hormones. Okay. Hormones looking good. All right. That’s really good. How are the big, you know, how’s the big toe?

Okay. The big toe is doing good. So it’s, it’s like our brain gets information about the rest of the body and the condition of the body from the vagus nerve. And then, based on the information that the brain gets about the body, it will then tell the body what to do. So, for example, you know, if it’s checking in on the body with the vagal effends, um, and it’s getting information about like, let’s say that the big toe, like you just dropped something on your foot, right?

And it takes a second. Like you always know your foot. Like if you ever drop something on your toe and you like it, it doesn’t hurt until you know it’s going to hurt. And it’s because it takes a minute for that nerve to reach all the way up to your brain. And so your, your body’s already processing it as, ah, shoot before it actually registers as pain in our brain.

And so our brain gets that information and then it will say like, oh, okay, the toe might be injured. Like, Hey, immune system, why don’t you send down some white blood cells to surveil the area and see whether or not, we need to send out the troops. And then that’s how that whole process starts, right?

And so there’s this really beautiful bi-directional information highway that operates between the brain and the rest of the body through the vagus nerve, right? The brain learns about what’s happening in the body, and then in turn the brain directs the activities of the body. And and so what we’re interested in is stimulating the vagus nerve, um, which is something that when you stimulate the vagus nerve, essentially what it does is it opens up that communication pathway.

Because a lot of people, especially people who are experiencing or have experienced in the past chronic stress or trauma, a lot of times their vagus nerve pathway it gets kind of closed down because when the brain is dealing with a lot of stress, your attentional system, all of your brain’s effort are focused outwardly, right?

Because if you’re in a stressful environment, your brain wants to know what’s happening on the outs around you, so that way you can cope with the stressor, right? And if you’re somebody who’s experienced trauma during childhood, your brain is actually developed in a way that has biased you away from focusing on what’s happening internally.

And instead has you focusing on what’s going on externally. Because if you’re in a traumatic environment, it means you need to be vigilant, right? You need to be vigilant to the external environment because things might be happening that aren’t good, right? Bad things might be happening. And so what happens with people who are either in chronic stress right now, or who developmentally have been exposed to chronic stress, is that you get decreased communication between the brain and the inside of the body because the body is biased toward focusing the attention outward.

And so there’s not enough attention being focused inward, and that can create pathology and that can create a number of different types of pathology. All of which seem to be very responsive to stimulating the vagus nerve. ’cause when you have the effect of stimulating the vagus nerve, it essentially opens up that communication pathway between the brain and the rest of the body.

And it gives the brain a better idea of what’s going on so that way it can make adjustments so that way the body runs like a well-oiled machine. And so we’re really interested in this in the context of PMDD and perimenopause because a lot of times when women are experiencing negative symptoms, it’s the result of the fact that the body isn’t adjusting quickly enough to these hormonal changes that are happening.

And so what we’re trying to do is, is open up that communication pathway between the brain and the rest of the body so that way the brain can tell the body what adjustments it needs to make in order to be able to get more smoothly through the transition of in the case of PMDD, the luteal phase, or in the case of, um, perimenopause through the perimenopausal transition.

And what’s really interesting and what’s what I love so much about this vagus nerve research is because what the mechanism of action is, is increasing the communication between the brain and the rest of the body. It has these incredibly helpful effects in so many different systems of the body. And just to give you, um, some examples this has been one of the treatments of choice for people who have treatment resistant epilepsy.

And so people who are having seizures, when you stimulate the vagus nerve, which again is sort of, um, it helps to regulate the body, um, in, in a way that decreases seizure activity and, um, can actually prevent seizures and people who are unable to prevent seizures using any other type of method. There’s been research showing that it decreases heavy menstrual bleeding which I think is really fascinating.

And that’s some research that’s been done by by OhmBody. I’ve actually got, this is the device that, that we’re using for our research looking at at PMDD. But they found in their research looking at heavy menstrual bleeding, that when women stimulate their vagus nerve during menstruation, it actually decreases the heaviness of their flow.

And it probably can prevent bleed outs during childbirth. Um, and that’s something that has not yet been explored. But given that that stimulating your vagus nerve has the effect of allowing your body to more carefully regulate blood flow, it suggests that that’s a possibility. And there’s also research showing that it, it decreases drug cravings and people who are who are trying to decrease addictive behaviours.

And so it has a lot of these really wide reaching effects in the body. And it’s one of these things that it’s, it’s almost all net positive. You know, it’s like, it’s, it’s not one of these things where you’re going to end up with these crazy side effects that are unpleasant. All of the side effects that you get from stimulating your vagus nerve, at least so far as we know from research so far, are very positive.

Like they, they’ve done studies looking at this whether stimulating the vagus nerve in, in children who have dyslexia, whether it can improve their ability to read and concentrate during during assignments when they’re having their nerve stimulated and it works. And, and, well, it’s, yeah.

It’s just so, it’s just so crazy. It just essentially is this tool by which you’re allowing your brain and body to be able to better regulate themselves.

Le’Nise Brothers: Hmm.

Dr Sarah Hill: Because, um, you’re opening up that communication pathway between the brain and the periphery that allows your body and, and brain to work together as a really nicely, well-oiled machine in ways that can just get disrupted in response to chronic stress or in response to trauma.

And so it’s really exciting work and, um, we’re really excited about it.

Le’Nise Brothers: The yoga part of me is thinking, when you mention, when you talk about the vagus nerve, I’m thinking, okay, what are some other things that stimulate the vagus nerve? Breathing?

Dr Sarah Hill: Yes.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yes. And you think about how many people they just breathe so shallow shallowly and you know, that the effect of sighing and taking a long, full breath and like even things like massage.

Dr Sarah Hill: Yes.

Le’Nise Brothers: But to know that there is also this research and there’s a tool that, I guess you can wear it on your, on your head.

Dr Sarah Hill: Mm-hmm.

Le’Nise Brothers: To kind of,

Dr Sarah Hill: yeah. Yeah. So the one, the one that we’re using in research the OhmBody device is actually an earpiece.

So you usually put this little guy around your ear with the electrodes, and then it is just this little guy here and you can just stick it in your pocket and and walk around and, and have your vagus nerve stimulated. But as you noted for people, um, who aren’t able to do, you know, can’t afford something like this, or they don’t want to do something like this.

Yeah. Breath work, you know, taking the deep, the deep exhale, right? The big sigh. These types of things also have the effect of putting us into that rest and digest, parasympathetic response that, again, when our body is in the parasympathetic response is not just rest and digest, it’s also that’s the time when our body and our brain starts being focused inward instead of outward.

Because when we’re in a sympathetic stress response that suggests that our brain needs to be focused on the external environment and it starts being vigilant and monitoring everything that’s happening around us. And it’s when we get into that parasympathetic response that our brain actually is able to take a scan and figure out what’s happening in the body, and then be able to better regulate the different systems that comprise, you know, our health and wellbeing.

Le’Nise Brothers: You’ve shared so much on the show today, and I am just so pleased to be able to speak to you and tap into some of your knowledge. Thinking about all of the topics that we’ve talked about today, what’s the one thought that you’d like to leave listeners with?

Dr Sarah Hill: I think that the one thing I would say is believe your body. I think that women for a really long time you know, just because of the way that we’ve been mishandled by medicine and science, uh, there’s been so many women have had the experience of going to the doctor because they think something’s wrong and they’re told nothing’s wrong and they know that something’s wrong or they’re experiencing these changes across the menstrual cycle and it feels pathological and their body is telling them this, but their doctors set of in instructions are telling them that, um, is that a lot of the wisdom that we’ve been given about what we’re supposed to be doing to our bodies or for our bodies was never made with a female body in mind.

And to just really learn to listen and trust what your body is telling you. And so believe your body.

Le’Nise Brothers: Believe your body. I love it. Where can listeners find out more about you? Where can they pick up the books? Where can they find out more about the OhmBody device.

Dr Sarah Hill: Yeah, so, um, you can find out more about me, my website is sarahehill.com and that’s Sarah with an h. I’m on social media channels. I’m most active on Instagram. And my handle is @sarahehillphd. And you can find my books anywhere that books are sold. And lastly, with the Ohmbody device, you can just look up OhmBody. Um, I do believe that it’s ohmbody.com.

And you can find, they have a commercially available device that’s sold there and they also have research resources, describing the results of the trials that they’ve done testing the effectiveness of their device with various different types of, uh, women’s health conditions.

Le’Nise Brothers: Thank you so much for your time today.

Dr Sarah Hill: Yeah, thank you so much for having me.

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Period Story · May 7, 2026

Period Story Podcast, Episode 108, Neelam Heera-Shergill: We Are Much More Powerful When We Come Together

I’m so happy to kick off season 12 of the Period Story podcast! My conversation with Neelam Heera-Shergill, the CEO of Cysters, an award winning charity working at the intersection of reproductive justice, racial justice and health equity.

In this episode, Neelam shares:

The three biggest signs that her mum spotted that told her that Neelam might have PCOS
The flippant comment her university GP made that left her feeling uncomfortable and upset
Why she wishes she was told much earlier on about the connection between increased risk of fatty liver disease and heart disease, PCOS and being of South Asian heritage
How she navigated dating, PCOS, PMDD, endometriosis and conversations about potential fertility issues
Why it was important for Cysters and Endometriosis UK to report on the longer endometriosis diagnosis times for people of colour
The racist messages she received because of this report
Her thoughts on white privilege in the women’s health space
Why food sits at the heart of the work Cysters does
And of course, the story of her first period

Neelam says not all work needs to be done in silos and we are much more powerful when we come together.

Thank you, Neelam!

Get in touch with Neelam:

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SHOW TRANSCRIPT

Le’Nise Brothers: Thank you so much for coming onto the show. Let’s kick off by me asking you the question that I start each episode off with, which is tell us the story of your very first period.

Neelam Heera-Shergill: I remember, I don’t remember how old I was at the time, but I think the one thing that probably sticks in my mind the most and probably my families, was I knew it was going to start, I know we’d had the period care and mental health is branded under sex education. So we’d had all those conversations in school and I remember going to the toilet and I remember it wasn’t like bright red or anything like that. It was like a darker brown. And I just knew instinctively, I knew this is what it was. And I went to the top of the stairs.

I called down the stairs, I’ve started, and um, my mum came up and she was like. I didn’t, she was, I remember I said to you, I didn’t need to announce it like that in the whole house. Obviously being in a South Asian household, um, it may have been uncomfortable, but also I’ve been quite lucky. I’ve come from quite really like a liberal household.

My mum taught things like sex education, so stuff like this was quite easy going in our house. So my dad didn’t say anything either. Um, but that’s the one specific thing I remember the most is just standing at the top of the stairs and being like, I started!

Le’Nise Brothers: So it was quite, quite open. And did you feel like you could ask any questions about what you were experiencing?

Neelam Heera-Shergill: Yeah, so this is where I think my experience has been South Asian are really different to the majority because of my mum and her background as being a nurse, a school nurse, um, and educating in this area. I was able to ask those questions early on, and that’s where we sort of know, um, about my own journey with having mental health issues and getting my first diagnosis with PCOS.

That’s kind of how we knew because my mum kind of spotted the abnormalities and little things like that first. But yeah, we never had a, a household where it was massively shameful to talk about that came outside of our immediate household, and that came more societally than it did come from my parents.

I, I still remember like times where I would be like on my period on feeling unwell and dad buying me like KFC and bringing me that home and chocolate and things, and then just little things that they’d put, um, a hot water bottle in the bed for me, it’s just so many little things that they used to do that I know a lot of people my age, south Asian households never had that experience because it was just summat they didn’t talk about.

And it wasn’t something that I felt like I need to have a sit down conversation with everyone in the household because it wasn’t something that was a taboo and it wasn’t something that I was embarrassed of. And I never had any problems at the start, uh, with my periods. And yeah, it was just, it was just my next phase of life.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah. And you mentioned that the PCOS diagnosis came because your mum was able to spot the signs due to the work that, that she did. Yeah. Can you just say more about the signs that your mum was able to spot?

Neelam Heera-Shergill: So the, the three biggest signs that she spotted was facial hair growth. Again, that could have been attributed to being South Asian ’cause naturally we do have a little bit more hair. So she was bit conscious of that. And then obviously. The fact that because I didn’t hide when I was on a period she noticed that they weren’t as frequent, they weren’t as monthly. And if they were, if I had a long gap in between, when it did come, it was super painful.

Um, and just not very nice. And then I had started, I’d gone from being quite, I don’t even know if athletic is the right word, but being quite slim. You know, fine for my age, um, in terms of like, let’s look at the word BMI, even though BMI doesn’t really exist, but that’s a different story. I started putting weight on quite rapidly, and particularly around my stomach.

So these were the telltale signs for mum that this is indicative of PCOS and they’re the three things that the doctors would ask you anyway.

Le’Nise Brothers: Hmm. And your mum spotted these signs. And what was it like then going to the doctor to then pursue this this diagnosis?

Neelam Heera-Shergill: So I didn’t pursue anything until I got to university, till I felt it was becoming an issue.

And I think that was quite a good thing because it taught me to take ownership of my health. Um, so I moved away to university. Um, I was living away from home, so it took it sort of grounded me in this experience of this isn’t right. This is what a period is supposed to look like. This is how it’s supposed to be.

I’m not supposed to be in this much pain. I’m not supposed to be this many months absent, et cetera. I know I’m putting on weight. I know that I’m getting much hairier. I know that I was losing hair as well. And um, so I engaged our GP like through, through the university and I think it was the first time that I actually went to the GP for myself rather than going with my mum for something.

So it was that transition for me as well to being more of an adult about my own health.

Le’Nise Brothers: When you went to the university GP, were they quite accepting of what you shared about what was going on with your health? Because I know sometimes we can, as women and people with periods, we can experience a lot of pushback.

Neelam Heera-Shergill: Yeah.

Le’Nise Brothers: When we try to get medical help. What was that experience like for you?

Neelam Heera-Shergill: So I would love to tell you just because I already had the answers that I was told. Perfect. We’ll sort it out straight away. But what I was told is you’ve just come to university, there’s a massive lifestyle change. You know, I’m not eating as healthy.

I’m going out. I’m, I’m sleeping late, like it’s lifestyle changes. That’s probably what it’s come back in, I think three months and keep a log of like the food that I’m eating and all of these things. Those three months turned into another three months later because I, I was told to like lose weight.

During that time I hadn’t really lost anything and it was my first year of university. I wasn’t going to just subtly start losing weight. It was a whole different lifestyle for me. If anything, I went the other way and put on a lot. My first year of uni, I put on a lot of weight. So I was really struggling and meeting these thresholds.

It’s then six months later and I’m not, I’m not getting anywhere, and I don’t think I’d even had a period, and I knew this wasn’t right. And I felt uncomfortable. Like you know your bodies. Mm-hmm. Right? We all our bodies as women, we know that if there’s something wrong, there’s something wrong. And so I was very conscious I just needed to get someone to listen to me, so they agreed, because I hadn’t been on a period for six months at that point. It might even been longer than six months by the time I went back to put me on the pill at this point, I think it’s called Dianette to cause I think it’s called um, like the withdrawal bleed. I didn’t actually know it was called a withdrawal bleed at that point. I thought it was an actual, I thought it just made your period come back. And this is I guess my naivety, but also I think the lack of education around this subject or the fact that the doctor just never told me this is what actually it is.

So I was really under the impression that I was actually having my proper periods back because of the pill. Unfortunately the pill wasn’t great for me. I hated being on it. I mean, I can, I can’t explain to you the amount of time I ended up missing from, um, uni in that first year. It wasn’t just physically being in pain because of period, lack of period ’cause it still felt like quite cyclical at times from what I remember. But the migraines and nausea, all of that that came with the pill was awful for me. And I just, I remember saying to some of the friends I’d made at uni. I just felt really silly about this because obvious it’s your first year of university.

These people are new. You’ve actually only known six months as well. So my health journey and making friends. And I felt so silly trying to say to people that I’m on the pill and I feel like this, and this is why I keep missing uni. And I remember, I remember a lot of my friends in that first year just thought I was a bit of, you know, you, you get, you go to uni and some people just don’t really come to the classes.

They’re not really that bothered. I was kind of labeled as that person, and it was actually just because I wasn’t well. And I couldn’t really, I didn’t have the language or the understanding to say it’s related to this because I didn’t really know. We didn’t really know, and I didn’t even have the confirmed diagnosis of PCOS till a little bit later either.

Le’Nise Brothers: So when you were experiencing these migraines, so because migraines on the pill are a red flag, did you go to your doctor and say, I’m experiencing nausea, I’m experiencing migraines. Yeah.

Neelam Heera-Shergill: I had all those conversations and they moved me to another pill. But I think at that point I was just so tired of being on tablets for anything that was like I don’t want to. I think I took the pill, I took the prescription. And interestingly, I remember this one thing of I wasn’t taking the pill for contraceptive purposes. I was taking it for PCOS. Now if you take the pill for contraceptive purposes, it’s free. You don’t have to pay for it. ’cause contraceptive is free in the UK.

I had to pay for it. And I was quite aggrieved by that ’cause I was like, why can’t we just say it’s for contraceptive? And he was like, but no, this is what we’re doing it for. So I remember you’re a university student, you don’t have a lot of money. I was really pissed off. And so these were the little things that I was like, I just don’t, I don’t quite understand what I’m doing, but I have to trust the doctors.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah.

Neelam Heera-Shergill: And I also remember one of the things I always say when I talk about this. One of the, I think a third or the fourth time when I was getting the Dianette pill, the doctor actually said to me and he said it really flippantly. He wasn’t horrible about it. And I think this is why I’ve never really thought of it as a bad thing until I’ve got older.

But I remember him saying to me, it doesn’t mean that I can go around having sex with everybody.

Le’Nise Brothers: Oh my gosh.

Neelam Heera-Shergill: And it was a really throwaway comment.

And like I said, there was no violence or anger in the, the conversation. And I remember laughing it off because it’s, you know, first year of uni, it’s kind of this thing that’s like around that you’re going to be promiscuous or whatever people think. And I just, I really didn’t think anything of it. And it’s not until I’ve got older, particularly with the work I do now around with Cysters and really challenging some of the, that the ideology that I’m like, oh, that was not okay.

Le’Nise Brothers: Mm.

Neelam Heera-Shergill: Um, and that, and I’ve always, but I’ve never forgotten it. I’ve, because it was such a flippant comment that it, and it did make me feel a bit uncomfortable at the time, but not so much that I was like, I’m not coming back in. I don’t want to engage with you again.

I just know I felt a bit like, oh and then sort of scurried away, and then obviously went on my journey with sort of the PCOS diagnosis.

Le’Nise Brothers: Did anything change for you once you got that diagnosis?

Neelam Heera-Shergill: I think I was able to finally say, particularly for uni and taking the time off that I finally got this diagnosis and that didn’t happen until like I I think, I feel like it was after Easter. I really feel like it was after Easter. So we’re, it’s a good nine months into uni at this point. And that was helpful because I failed some of my exams. I had, like I said, I’d kept taking time off. And it was helpful for me to be able to resit those exams in summer and have the case to resit the exams.

And I was really upset about it because I’ve always been quite studious and I’ve never had a problem with university and things like that. So this is the first experience for me and me not doing well, um, academically, which was a real shocker for me. So yeah, having the diagnosis, I was more concerned about the validating my experience, not for me, but for my university experience and for me to just go on and progress to the second year ’cause I was terrified that after retake the first year.

Le’Nise Brothers: Mm.

Neelam Heera-Shergill: So it was more for the fact that it, it, it caused such a blip in my academia that I want, I needed it to just get through the next hurdle.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah. Did that change anything about your relationship with your period as you moved through your twenties and then into your thirties?

Neelam Heera-Shergill: Well, I didn’t take the pill. Um, I, I decided not to. So I had throughout university really absent and then really like horrific periods when they did come.

So I, if I’m, if I’m completely honest, I think when I got the actual diagnosis, I remember he printed off like a sheet of paper and it had like the outline of what was meant to be like a woman’s body and the uterus and the pelvic area. And it was a go, I remember it specifically because it was a printout from like Google, because at the bottom of the printout page, it has like HTTP and then like the internet address.

So it wasn’t like a proper leaflet. Mm. So I thought it can’t be that deep because if it was that important, it would’ve a proper leaflet. Right. It would like if it, if it was cancer, you would have like a McMillan leaflet. So I didn’t really pay it no mind. I remember taking it back and just being like it is what it is. I wasn’t really upset. I wasn’t really bothered because I didn’t think it was a big deal. And because it put so much on lifestyle, I thought it just, it’ll just come back. When it comes back. Obviously the rest of my uni life academically went fine after that. I was able to manage myself a bit better.

I wasn’t on the pill and, um. But I was putting on a lot of, lot of weight. I wasn’t looking after myself or because I didn’t understand what PCOS really was, I didn’t understand. I, to this day, like one of the things that shocks me the most is like PCOS, we always talk about it from a, um, a fertility angle, period angle, but actually, with it being an endocrine disorder, your risk of heart disease goes up massively and fatty liver disease. I’d never even heard of those terms relating to PCOS until many, many years later when I was probably in my late twenties. So then what 10 years has gone by then before I’ve even learned that that was a big thing.

And in the South Asian community, those two things are really prevalent in our communities. So it always, I think discourages me that I was never really told what this condition was and I was only given this sort of sheet of paper printout that really didn’t mean anything, but actually the depth and what the severity of PCOS can do if not managed well is quite severe.

And I think those three years at uni had I looked after myself better and understood the condition, I would’ve been in a better position with my health possibly today. And it took me a long time to start figuring out what worked for me, and I think it got to it got to a point where I was very visibly uncomfortable.

I was very visibly overweight. I remember actually getting my graduation pictures and being like, I did, I, I, did I read, do I really look like this? And I got a job after university in a law firm because I used to work in law. So I was quite fortunate straight away. And, um, I just remember thinking I need to figure out what’s going on with me now.

And I went to, you know, I moved to a new town. I got a new GP and I ended up being put on Metformin to manage my PCOS. That, again, was an awful, awful drug. It made me constantly go back and forth to the bathroom. I probably lost so much weight because I was too scared to eat at one point. It did have its plus points in that it did help me regulate weight.

My period suddenly started coming back. It was probably ’cause I started losing weight again. But I still don’t quite understand what that drug was doing to and for me. And I know there’s a lot of people with PCOS that don’t actually get prescribed it now, so I still don’t quite understand. What the benefits it, was it what it was actually doing for my PCOS, I just, I just needed something.

So like I said, I did manage to start losing weight again and then my periods started coming back. And I think, ’cause I was feeling better, I was able to start looking after myself more, which obviously did have a knock on impact, but I don’t ever, want to put anyone in a position where they feel like they have to lose weight to, to manage their PCOS because that’s not the same thing at all. Yeah. I think my issue with my PCOS journey is that I was never really told about what it’s, how to manage it and actually really the severity of the condition.

Le’Nise Brothers: And what is your relationship like with the PCOS now?

Neelam Heera-Shergill: I think, look, I think it’s still going to always be up and down. I think now I get more, if I’m stressed, it triggers a lot more and I, I have these visible telltale signs when my PCOS is not in a great place or it, my body is not in a great place, like my hair will start falling out immediately. If you look at the photos of me for the last few years of university, I’ve got very, very short hair and that was partly because it was falling out so much.

It sounds really silly, but that was a big part of me. Um, and losing my hair is always like my telltale sign that things aren’t okay. And also the severity of hair growth is another one for me. So if I start getting loads and loads of hair on my chin, like just popping up really quickly, I need to have a bit, I guess almost a detox slash clear out, and also when I say that, I mean a bit of time for myself, not just food or lifestyle related. I mean actually stepping away from the screens and stuff and actually getting out a bit more. Mm-hmm. I tend to find in the colder months, it’s worse because I’m not really leaving the house.

Le’Nise Brothers: Mm-hmm.

Neelam Heera-Shergill: In the summer months it’s better because I’m physically out a little bit more in the sun and things. But my relationship with PCOS I think is different because I understand the condition a lot better now. Yeah. I understand severity of it. I understand that. Some of my risk factors for heart disease are much higher because I’m South Asian with PCOS.

And I think all those things have made it really easier for me to understand the condition from a personal perspective.

Le’Nise Brothers: And you mentioned fertility earlier.

Neelam Heera-Shergill: Mm-hmm.

Le’Nise Brothers: And when I work with people with PCOS often that is a big question. They’ve been told that they’re infertile or they have some sort of secondary infertility.

And that is a big journey that I explore with these women. Can you talk a little bit about your journey? Because now you have a 20 month old and you know, I know that you have been through a lot on that side. Is there anything that you feel comfortable sharing on that topic?

Neelam Heera-Shergill: So I think because I have PCOS and then I’ve got other health conditions as well, like endometriosis, I’ve got PMDD.

I always knew that um having a child was going to be difficult. So I even actually, when I was dating, I was quite upfront about that. Having a child, and fertility is placed on a really high pedestal in our community. It’s almost, it’s a cultural like mark of womanhood. It’s not a religious requirement.

It’s more of a cultural thing. So I was always very like, look, these are my cards on the table. I’ve got these conditions. This is what it means, this is what it might mean. I can’t guarantee anything. I don’t want to go down this road of, um, getting into a relationship and finding out later on, this is not what you want because I might not be able to have children.

I think it’s really, it was important for me to be able to take ownership of that. Obviously there had been relationships where that was a, an absolute no-no for them, so they didn’t want to pursue it, which was fine. Until I met my husband who was very much like okay then. Right. And I remember that evening something that I, this one thing that’s I really, really made me, not even just fall for him, actually just really made me respect him as an individual.

But he told me he researched it himself. He’d watched my TEDx talk. And he had a real good read of everything that he could find on me, um, and understand from my perspective what it was and look at, because I’d already been running Cysters at that point, and I thought that’s the first time that I’ve seen anyone actually actively engage with what this condition is rather than just hearing it from me.

And that’s it. And, um we spoke really at length about it. We even spoke like, if it doesn’t happen, if we want to stay together, would you be open to things like adoption and all of those things. And I had a, I have a really great husband who was happy to just go on that journey with me rather than discount it.

You know, we did unfortunately struggle with conceiving. Um, we did unfortunately have miscarriage, which was really hard for both of us. And so when I did become pregnant again, it was perhaps the most secret pregnancy I had ever had. Um, I went through the whole pregnancy with probably a handful of people that knew.

So my, my family, his immediate family, and, um my very, very close friends who were just keeping an eye on me every time we were somewhere. I’m a hoodie type of girl, any hoodie and trainers. So I concealed this pregnancy very, very well up until probably the last month where I suddenly just popped. We we even held a massive conference at Cysters, um, on menopause in Birmingham. And it was like around 80 people were there and I managed to pull that conference off and no one clocked I was pregnant apart from the people that knew. And I just remember when everybody had left the, and I was just lying on the floor like, guys, somebody needs to get me home.

I was like, I’m dying. And then after that, that’s when it became more apparent and obvious and I just couldn’t hide it after that. But it was even for friends that I’ve known for a long time, it was a real shock when I did have my daughter, they, they didn’t know I was pregnant, but that was because going through the loss was so horrible for me to even communicate that to people after saying that I’m pregnant.

It was really difficult. And I didn’t want to go through that again, so I’d rather get to the, the end of the, that term and everything be okay?

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah.

Neelam Heera-Shergill: I think having the PCOS, the miscarriage has had such an impact on me. I was a really anxious pregnant person, but I’m a really anxious mum as well.

And it’s sort of transferred into that. And it’s something that I always say to my husband is like, I really don’t want her to have any of the conditions I’ve had. It’s something I’m terrified about. Obviously I have the tools and knowledge to help her if she does, but the things that I’m just actually terrified about and having PCOS, it means you are more likely to have gestational diabetes, being South Asian, you’re more likely to have gestational diabetes.

And that was an interesting one because I said very straight away, I’m probably going to have gestational diabetes. And I remember saying I think we should do this test earlier. I’m probably going to have gestational diabetes. They didn’t. I ended up having it a little bit later because of some of the, the waiting times.

And lo and behold I had gestational diabetes and I was like, I told, I told everybody, and I think this is really reflective sometimes of just not being listened to when you know your body. I mean, it took me so long to actually get the PCOS diagnosis bearing in mind my, my mum knew around 16-17, and I’d already engaged at seven 18.

It took me till at least 19 to get the diagnosis. And then I’m telling people, I know I’ve got gestational diabetes. And it was kind of like, don’t worry, you’ll be fine. We’ll, we’ll do the test when we do the test. And I, I did, I had gestational diabetes and it was such a shame because I really struggled with eating throughout the pregnancy anyway.

And then when I did finally get an appetite back, I couldn’t eat anything properly because it was ’cause of my gestational diabetes. But all those things, I think. For PCOS women, not everybody’s told that they’re more likely to get it. And I think it’s just things that we need to be aware of if we’re going down that fertility.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah. We talked a little bit about the endometriosis and PMDD. I want to just circle into some of the recent work that you’ve done through Cysters where

Neelam Heera-Shergill: mm-hmm.

Le’Nise Brothers: You talked a lot about delayed endometriosis diagnosis and we’ve just come out Endometriosis Awareness month and there’s this stat that we always talk about, which is it can take between seven to 10 years to receive a formal diagnosis. Yeah. And what we know through the report that, and the work that you’ve done through Cysters is that that diagnosis is longer for people of colour. Can you talk a little bit about that as, as well as your own story around endometriosis?

Neelam Heera-Shergill: So I think one of the reasons I wanted to look into that is ’cause when I was looking at the, um, stats around the, that figure, so when I first came into this space, it was a seven year diagnosis delay, and now it’s officially like a nine year diagnosis delay, and then it’s 11 years if you’re a person of colour.

I was looking at how many people have been interviewed and I realised that there’s not many people from the global majority background, and I always wondered why, when it comes to research, why are we not reflected in it and why is that nuance not there? We applied for funding from so many places to try and get this off the ground.

We didn’t get anywhere because no one wanted to fund it, and then we approached Endo UK to say, do you want to do this with us? Because it just makes sense to do it collaboratively. And they agreed. We had no funding or anything. We actually, I did it through my maternity leave, putting this together.

So it was a lot of labour, literally figuratively, putting this together, putting this report together. I do wonder if we have some pro, if we had proper resource behind us, whether we would’ve been able to interview, speak to more people, get more voices, and whether that figure of 11 years is actually accurate or whether it’s actually bigger.

Um, because if you think our sample size still probably isn’t reflective of the community, but this is a start for us to push for something. And so even speaking to people on their journeys, what we realised is what and what one of the things that the report shows is that people of colour are actually presenting themselves quicker to primary care services.

And that’s in my experience as well. We’re going to primary care. Uh, primary care. We’re going to the GPs faster, but we’re having to wait longer to get the referral to the next part. I think for me, a lot of mine was try and lose weight, lifestyle changes. My old, my mine may have been slightly different because I was in, um, I was university then living in like shared accommodation.

I was moving probably less than a year, every year to a different place. So my GP was physically changing all the time, so I had no continuity of care with the GP at all. So I think that may have played a part, particularly with my journey, but then I’m seeing that replicated in people that are international students, for example, who don’t have that continuity of care.

And I think that’s also important to recognise is that just because you might be South Asian or from a black community or the global majority, there’s so many other factors. It’s such a multifaceted conversation as to why diagnosis care is longer. And I think, um, some of the things that we were talking about is this general not believing when women are saying, I’m in pain and I need to be referred.

And a lot of GPs coming back with can you try this first or can you do this first before I refer you? Whereas my belief is genuinely that if there’s something that beyond a GPs specialty, it should be referred there and then

Le’Nise Brothers: yeah,

Neelam Heera-Shergill: That will, that will massively cut down the waiting time for the patient.

Obviously that’s not going to cut waiting times down for the NHS, but the waiting time is so long, you need the referrals straight away because after you’ve even been referred, you’re waiting a really long time to even get to a gynecologist. Yeah. Um, in relation to my journeys, but what’s been interesting most recently is, um, I was discharged out the waiting list I was on prior to having my daughter.

And so I went back to the GP because I, I mean, I’ve had my daughter now, but I’m still in pain. I’m obviously, I’m still, it’s not gone away. And when I asked, I where the referral where we’ve got to with my referral, back to my gynecologist so I can have a conversation. I was told that that’s, I’m no longer on that list.

And when we got down to the reason as to why, ’cause I had a baby and I was like, but regardless, I’m still in Pain. My, my referral to the gynae wasn’t because of fertility, it was because of this endo journey or this pain journey, et cetera. And so now I’ve had to start all over again. It was actually, I think last week I got the text message through sort of the NHS app saying that my referral’s been accepted.

I’m on the waiting list again, but my daughter’s turning two this year, so I’ve been waiting for a really, really long time at this point. And I think sometimes decisions are made about you without you and this assumption ’cause you’ve had a child that you’re just, okay now it’s absurd because that doesn’t work like that in real life.

Um, and you know, when speaking to other people, having a rant about it in the community gatherings that we do at Cysters, I’m not the only one that’s had that experience. There’s almost this, uh, misconception that you’ve had a baby. So you’re fine now.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah.

Neelam Heera-Shergill: And that’s not the case at all.

Le’Nise Brothers: And what’s really interesting about that is that even today women will come to me about endometriosis and they’ll say, oh, my doctor told me that it will all get better once I have a baby.

And we know that that’s not the case. When we look into what endometriosis actually does in the body, we know that’s not the case, but it’s still mind blowing that doctors still say things like this.

Neelam Heera-Shergill: Yeah.

Le’Nise Brothers: And I want to now talk a little bit about the racial side of it, because you wrote a really interesting LinkedIn post where you talked about white privilege when talking about justice and in health.

Can you just say a little bit more about that, because this came off of the back of the report that Cysters released.

Neelam Heera-Shergill: We, um, did this report jointly with Endo UK. As an organisation I think it’s really important that we work collaboratively with as many people as possible. That really comes from the fact that as an organisation, we’re decolonising and we’re all about collective liberation. And decolonising work means that the work is not ever going to be individual or siloed. It has to be with collective people around the table. So our door and our table is big enough for everybody.

So for me working together with people is really important. I just really think it’s the way we’re going to move forward. I mean, we can’t talk about collective liberation. If I’m leaving you behind it, that’s not going to work. Um, so we went with that approach and the press release that we had put out was a joint press release, but we had agreed that Cysters would be named first on everything. If you even open up the report, the forward is from me right at the beginning because I’m the one that had lived experience of the condition as well as writing the report as well, um, as well as one of our trustees, um, Sarah being the lead researcher.

So imagine then when it’s picked up by media and we’re cut of it, we’re completely cut out. So that’s, for me as a choice, that was a choice of journalists to cut us out. And so when challenging some of those narratives and when even when the report came out publicly on Instagram, some of the messages that we got were, um, I’m playing the race card.

And so, it’s been really interesting, some of the vitriol that I’ve received personally off the back of this. Because I’ve spoken a lot about white privilege in this space. I don’t have the privilege to be able to be like, I’m going to take my skin off now. Race isn’t a card that we were dealt, a card that we have. It’s who we are. We can’t be separated from that. And if we are talking about race to platform whiteness as the, the authority on that is really problematic for me. Um, regardless if, you know, the journalist has made that choice to do that. It really reframes the fact that our voices have to be carried by the white majority first before we’re listened to.

And it literally speaks to the whole reason this report was done in the first place. So if anything, as much as it’s hurtful, it’s proving my point about there is a racial disparity here, even to be able to say there’s a racial disparity I have to work and I have to white people to say it, to make it believable because you won’t hear it from me.

And this is where the discourse for me comes through. This is why the white privilege really comes through. And when I spoke about white privilege in this space, I had a lot, I mean, I’ve, I’ve been subject to a lot of really horrible racist messages in the last week because of this report. But it just shows how easily grassroots organisations, ones rooted in social and racial justice, can spend years building trust. But when it comes to actually platforming this work, we will be cut out of it without a, you know, without any worries. And I think that happens quite often to our communities. This is not new.

Le’Nise Brothers: Mm.

Neelam Heera-Shergill: And I am, I’m honestly tired of that. I’m tired of that narrative. I’m tired of having to be propped up by other organisations to be seen as the authority, even though we are the authority for the fact that we live as black and brown people.

The fact that we have lived and the, these conversations about Delayed diagnosis are our lived experiences, but we need someone else to validate that, to make it believable. And that’s the bit that I really sit with and I want, I invite everybody to ask themselves why that is the case. Because for me when we’ve called out levels of white privilege, a lot of the messages I get back is, I’m making it personal, but calling out privilege in this space because I have different types of privileges compared to people around me. But calling out privilege is never about people personally. It’s about the systems that we’ve just been put into and how we can make those systems better or worse for the people around us. It’s for me, the power dynamic.

So if we continue to ignore that this is actually happening, then we’re perpetuating the issue. And that’s the whole point of everything we’ve been talking about. And when we centre a white voice in that, we centre their journeys and then again, not ours, and we’re just the add-on, it’s almost been the robin to the Batman, we’re the sidekicks and that’s not it.

And, and essentially. What journalism has done is system systematically erase a whole community by doing that. And that for me should be problematic for everybody who sits in this space because it just shows that our voice is not as valued unless it’s propped up by another, another voice that holds the majority space.

Le’Nise Brothers: Were you able to challenge any of the journalists that cut out the work that Cysters had done in this report?

Neelam Heera-Shergill: I, one of them I had, and they made an amendment in their post saying that it’s with Cysters. That’s it. But you know, the damage is done, right? Changing a caption in a post doesn’t change what’s really happened, um, Endo UK are uh, speaking to the Guardian at the moment to get things changed.

But like I said the damage is done. Yeah. If you look at some of the posts and the community, I don’t think I’ve really had to say very much, uh, partly because I’ve just been really busy with wedding season, but the community have been angry and it’s all people of colour. It’s all the global majority that have been the ones to stand up first and be like, actually, this, you’ve completely cut Cysters out here. So our voice in numbers does matter and it can make change. I think we need to sometimes remember that, that just because we get erased from the main space doesn’t mean that we don’t have a voice at all. And for me, I want to, I want to redirect the focus of the shoddy journalism to the work that we’re doing, the community that we’re supporting, and the actual findings in these reports, but more so is the recommendations because I want people to do something with this now. I’m not going to sit there and just be getting racist messages telling me to go back to Palestine and Afghanistan and all the horrible things that I’ve had this week for nothing, and I want to make something happen off the back of this.

Le’Nise Brothers: What can happen off the back of the report? What recommendations do you want to see going forward?

Neelam Heera-Shergill: Well, because this report was completely unresourced, I would like to the government to commit to looking at data intersectionally because actually this is beyond race as well.

If we look at disability, if we look at class and things like that, I think it’s important to recognise those nuances, um, as well. So that’s something around how we capture the data. I would like primary care to be trained up to be able to make these referrals much quicker because that is where we have seen the bulk of the problem, because we’re presenting quicker.

So a lot of people say we need more awareness campaigns. I mean, awareness is always great, but clearly awareness is working ’cause we’re going to the doctors sooner. So it’s not an awareness campaign. We don’t need another Instagram campaign. We actually need someone to go and do something about it now, um, because clearly it’s working because we are presenting quicker and then.

Some of the other things I, I would like some much wider research done into this space with this nuance that is actually done by people in this space. So it’s not left on black and brown people to do said research. And I want that to be supported by those people that are the stakeholders in that space.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah. The work that you’re doing is amazing and it’s not just campaigning work that you’re doing, but you’re also doing a lot of work within communities. And I think the mission of Cysters is so interesting because what you’re doing is highlighting not only menstrual issues, it’s menopause, it’s maternal, it’s also mental health issues.

Neelam Heera-Shergill: Yeah.

Le’Nise Brothers: And something that I find fascinating is the fact that you food sits at the heart of the work you do.

Neelam Heera-Shergill: Yeah.

Le’Nise Brothers: Can you talk a little bit about why that is?

Neelam Heera-Shergill: Yeah, so we had, um, our rebrand last year and part of that if you come to anything that’s a Cysters event, you’ll be fed and you’ll have some music.

There’ll be some joy, there’ll be a little, maybe a little dance. I’ll, I’ll, I’ll always dance because these conditions, these journeys are hard enough to go through. And culturally, ancestrally, food is something that brings us around a table. And I like to think of Cysters as a big table and everyone brings a dish and we sit and eat together.

We, we did a iftar this year, uh, what we do one every year. And whilst we hosted it and we did all the food. We never asked any of the community to bring their own food, but people did because they wanted to. That is the beauty of holding community spaces at its core, because people do the most without being asked.

Fruit had symbolic meaning. So things like mangoes are always linked to friendship and love. The chili we’ve used as part of our imagery because chili’s a little bit spicy. We think we’re spicy organisation pushing the boundaries a bit. I’m South Asian. I love a bit of spice. Um, we’ve used peanuts because ancestrally, a lot of people say eat peanuts when you are going through menopause because it’s going to help that brain fog.

We’ve used things like corn, watermelons, things like that because of the political aspect of it. So we’ve been really intentional with the way that we’ve done stuff. We’ve got like cherries in our work ’cause obviously links to that virginity popping the cherry. Everything we’ve done and how we brand ourselves, how we hold ourselves is really with an intent of community.

And those links back ancestrally because for me. Those are the things that keep us holding together.

Le’Nise Brothers: And even in the strap line, so taking up space together.

Neelam Heera-Shergill: Yeah.

Le’Nise Brothers: That’s really powerful because these journeys, they can be isolating. Yes. Thinking about, you know, the pain that can be quite isolating in endometriosis.

The mental health aspects of PMDD and how that can be very isolating. So knowing that you’re not alone and these community events that bring people together, that’s really empowering. Can you share some of the perhaps not necessarily success stories, but maybe some of the positive stories that kind of have come out of the work that you’ve done within the community?

Neelam Heera-Shergill: I think, I think the space that we create is, is quite positive physically in these community gatherings. I know a lot of people leave with friendships and for me that’s a huge thing. If it was a more practical level, we do baby milk drives, so whenever we get free baby milk, we’ve done two big drives now where we were given loads of baby milk, I think six 5,500 tubs of it, which we donated out to people that needed it. We’ve done that twice now because obviously we don’t get that donated very often, but when we do, it goes to the people that are most in need of it. And a story from the beginning of this year, which really still sits with me, um, when we were doing our donation drive and mothers were coming, there was one little boy and he couldn’t have, he couldn’t have been like older than a year. He must have been about 10 months. And he had loads and loads of, um, like blankets put on top of him on his pram. And um, and I was asking what, you know, why so many blankets? It was cold, it was January and she was saying she doesn’t have a proper coat for him.

This is the beauty of working collaboratively and this is why we should be working collaboratively. Because in that room I also had other organisations that we could work with who was at a baby bank in Handsworth, who we work with quite closely. And I was like the girls called, um, uh, Kavita, and I was like, can you help this woman get her a coat for her son?

And you know, it’s really stuck with me because she was so grateful for it and it turned out she needed some other things as well, which they were able to help with. Now, for me, they’re the grassroots level success stories, and they’re the things that you don’t see, and they’re the things that I’m never going to be able I’ll, I will never, you’ll never see that trauma porn on our social media. That’s not something that we are interested in. That would get all the clout and all the likes and people following us all the way. But I’m not going to put somebody through that trauma porn just to for that. But it’s really stuck with me. I always think I, I do always think back, I wonder if she’s doing okay. I wonder how her son is. And, you know, maybe our paths will cross again. Who knows? But to know that we were able to give her something. We also work with, um, the Birmingham like it’s like a food waste project. They’ve got loads, they have loads of food that they give out.

And when we did the donation drive, they brought us loads of like Gregg’s donuts and bananas and fruit. And I remember just sending her home and loads of bananas and loads of fruit and, and some donuts and things. Those are the things that I can do. I can’t change policy tomorrow, right? I can do research reports all day, but I’m not going to change policy.

But what I can change is how we show up and hold community and how we work collaboratively with people to make their lives a little bit better. And they’re the things that matter to me. They’re the things that you will never be able to capture in a picture or a post, but they’re the things for me that matter the most.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah. What’s coming up? I know you’re coming off the back of, and you’re still in the publishing of the report, the endometriosis report. Is there anything that you’re working on for the future that you can share now?

Neelam Heera-Shergill: So we have, um, sort of our monthly community gatherings. We’re trying to work with more researchers to ensure their research is reflected that the communities they’re talking about.

Quite a lot of the time, a lot of researchers contact us saying they want to work with, for example, a South Asian community, but their whole research team is white. So we, we really do question why do you think that’s the appropriate way to work with these communities. So we’re working to make sure research is actually done in a way that’s equitable and just for the communities that they’re serving.

And they’re the things that we’ve been working on at the moment and that some of the successful projects we worked on with, um, Warwick University. And we’ve actually got a six month long exhibition hosting another report that we’ve done, but holding the community at the heart of it. And that’s in Birmingham, the Brick Cafe where we have our, most of our events in our registered office. But it’s just a really lovely space to actually go and see not the influencers around women’s health, but actually the people on the ground. Yeah. Um, people at the end of life, people who have just died their journey. These people, women had never met each other before this project, and now most of them are really good friends.

And that’s the beauty of doing this work because those are the things that we can really hold onto in those times where we’re really struggling.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah. Well, I mean, I think the work that you do is amazing. As I mentioned before we started recording, we’ve been circling each other for quite a few years now.

There are some panels that, you know, we were meant to be on that didn’t work out, but I’m so glad To finally speak to you and like really dive into the work that you are doing where can people find out more about Cysters and find out more about the work that you do?

Neelam Heera-Shergill: So you can go onto our website. So it’s www.cysters.org.

Cysters is spelled after an ovarian cyst, so it’s C-Y-S-T-E-R-S. So it’s, that’s the spelling of it. And, um, on socials is Cysters group. And, you know, I’d, I’d like to think we’re quite accessible, so feel free to just get in touch if you ever need to.

Le’Nise Brothers: What’s the one thought that you’d like to leave listeners with today?

Neelam Heera-Shergill: That we are much more powerful when we come together. Not all the work needs to be done in silos. We definitely will move forward quicker if we look at collective liberation rather than the liberation of the self.

Le’Nise Brothers: Fantastic. Thank you so much for your time today. It’s been a real pleasure speaking with you.

Neelam Heera-Shergill: Thank you. Thanks so much for having me.

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Period Story · January 22, 2026

Period Story Podcast, Episode 107, Sjaniël Turrell: Do The Best You Can With What You Have

Our skin is our biggest organ and what we put on it can have ramifications for different aspects of our health. If you’re thinking more about the impact of the makeup, skincare and personal care products you use, my guest on today’s episode of Period Story shares a lot of great information. Sjaniël Turrell is a holistic makeup artist, nutritional therapist and conscious consultant and focuses on a natural and sustainable approach to beauty.

In this episode, Sjaniël shares:

How the intensity of lockdown exacerbated the perimenopause symptoms she was experiencing
How perimenopause made her get clear on what she does and doesn’t have capacity for
The direction her nutritional therapy qualification took her work as a makeup artist
Why we need to think differently about the makeup, skincare and personal care products we use
Why fragranced products, including cleaning products and menstrual products are the number thing in your home you should consider switching
The natural and organic brands she recommends, including RMS Beauty, Ilia Beauty, Madara, Kosas and Ere Perez
Natural and organic makeup brands (and tips!) for dark-skinned and mixed race women
And of course, the story of her first period

Sjaniël says that if you’re looking at switching to natural, organic and sustainable versions of the products you use, do the best you can afford in that moment and do the best you can with what you have.

Thank you, Sjaniël!

Get in touch with Sjaniël:

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SHOW TRANSCRIPT

Le’Nise Brothers: Thank you so much, Sjäniel, for coming onto the show today. I am really excited to speak to you to tap into all of your amazing knowledge of beauty and skincare, but let’s kick off with the question that I ask all of my guests to start with, which is tell us the story of your very first period.

Sjaniël Turrell: Hi Le’Nise.

Thank you so much for having me on. Yeah, this is something I’ve never really thought about much to be fair. I was a late bloomer. I got my period when I was 14, which felt like, I think the last out of all my friend group.

But basically I was in a youth camp, away from home. And I woke up this morning after, obviously was sleeping in kind of like these little bungalows, four girls in a room. But I was a youth leader at the time in our church youth camp. And so they were boys in the house as well, like the youth leaders sleeping together.

But I just woke up and I was like, my underwear was wet and cold. And I, I suddenly was like, did I wet myself? And then when I woke up, my underwear was covered in blood. And obviously I’m sleeping in a, in a bed, in a public bed, you know, in a public space. And I, I think the first thing was the fear that the bed was covered in blood.

And by some miracle, I don’t know how, because my underwear was soaked through, there was no blood anywhere on the sheets, which I just in itself is miraculous. But I think for me, my first feeling and response was just this thing of, oh my gosh. Okay. Well, I mean, obviously I knew that all my friends had their periods and it’s not like, it was, wasn’t like a shock to my, to what it was, but my main concern was just getting into the shower without anyone noticing, being in there, washing my underwear, and then asking my friend that was there with me, like if she had any, you know, sanitary products, which at that time for your first period, she, they only had tampons, which I think I didn’t even know how to use.

But yeah, so that was my first period. It just came kind of in that situation where I wasn’t at home, I wasn’t, but yeah, so I think the only thing I felt around that, on that moment was more like, uh, logistics, control, you know, of the situation.

Le’Nise Brothers: And once you got a handle on the logistics, so after you left the youth camp, went back home, did you speak to anyone about it?

Sjaniël Turrell: Yeah, so I grew up in, um, a home with a single mom. And I grew up in a very conservative Christian kind of upbringing and these things were hardly ever discussed at all. I don’t think my mom ever discussed periods with me, but I think because I was so late in getting my period, everyone around me already had theirs

And I think I just came home from the camp and she was there to pick me up and then I think, I can’t remember how long I waited, but I just said, oh, I started my period. And she just kind of went like, oh yeah, I’ve been wondering if that was going to happen sometime soon. And that was literally it. And then I guess some subsequent conversations around maybe what sanitary products to use or you know, but I don’t think I had like a massive emotional thing about it.

I think it was my, any emotional feelings around it was much more around the fact that everyone else had their period and I didn’t, I kind of felt like, why? What’s wrong with me? Kind of thing.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah. And what was your experience of your period like as you went through your teenage years?

Sjaniël Turrell: I feel that I’ve been very fortunate with my period and just my cycle in general through my life that I’ve always had regular periods pretty much.

I’ve never had really awful kind of cramping or as a general thing. I’ve had moments of that through my life when I guess cycles have, um, you know, just through different periods. I’m in my late forties, so I’ve, you know, gone through a lot of different cycles. But I would say for the most part, I have not had a problematic period.

It’s not something that I’ve hated in my life. Yes, I’ve certainly have very sensitive hormones, like I feel the changes in my hormones really deeply, like I’m very sensitive to changes in my hormones and I used like contraception, like the contraceptive pill maybe in my early twenties and realised pretty soon that my body does not like synthetic hormones.

It doesn’t do not good for my mental health, but around my physical period, although now I’m in this perimenopausal phase of life, almost feel like this is much, much worse or much more challenging than, um, yeah, puberty for me, I think.

Le’Nise Brothers: Can you say a bit more about your experience of perimenopause?

Sjaniël Turrell: Well, there’s a lot.

I think. I think what people, there’s a lot of talk about perimenopause now. I think especially in the UK, it’s a massive focus topic, which I think my theory about it is just that Gen X is in menopause now, and we’re a very different generation to the generations from before. But I also think it’s suddenly people are like, oh, but everyone’s having such a hard time.

And I’m like, yeah, but we are the first society of women going through menopause with the technological influence that has taken over the world. And I don’t think that’s a natural process. And I almost said this to the friend, the other said, if they took a thousand women and removed their, their took their phones away completely for six months, they probably wouldn’t have any perimenopause symptoms, is what I, you know, and I think that’s a valid, I just don’t think our brains are made to focus on this many things.

But my personal experience is more that when I think it kind of, it really came to an intensity in COVID because I was 43 at that time. There was a lot of, it was just a very intense time for everyone, no matter what you were experiencing. There was a lot of anxiety, there was a lot of unknowns, there was a lot of questions.

Nobody knew what was happening in the future. And I experienced a lot of physiological anxiety, which definitely was also influenced by the subconscious tone of the time. But I was having severe panic attacks at random times at like two o’clock in the morning or 10 o’clock in the morning when I wasn’t particularly worried or stressed about something specific.

Having a lot of this, well, extreme insomnia, which I guess kind of followed on from having my second child just before I turned 40. And I think it’s kind of that hormonal fluctuation when you have babies in your early forties where you come out of the postpartum hormones and almost immediately go flow into the perimenopausal hormones.

Your hormones never quite get to a good kind of back to young baseline. And I think at the time it was much more me just coping with the anxiety, the insomnia, and I mean, and I say insomnia. I’d go four days with no sleep and then maybe sleep three hours one night, and then another three, four days, no sleep.

Like insane for months on end. I was losing my mind. But I think coming out of COVID. I started realising, oh, wait a minute, this is hormonal. Because people would be say to me all the time, what are you worrying about? And I’d be like, this is not mental worry. It’s a physiological state. I can feel it. It’s like heart palpitations, just constantly feeling in a physical state of not being able to control your body.

And so I fortunately for the most part, moved out of that state of the anxiety, which I think carried on for about, on and off for like five years, quite intensely or maybe three or four years. Yeah. And now I’m just kind of in these spaces of dealing with, well, I had a year of, almost a year of good sleep, and then in the last couple of months it started to evade me.

And I really understand now that it’s so much to do with whether your progesterone is suddenly dropping or your estrogen is suddenly dropping. Most possibly, yeah, the testosterone’s been low for a while, but yeah, so I find specifically for me around the week before my period starts, I really struggle with sleep at that time.

And I know that that’s naturally, obviously a time when estrogen drops down. Yeah. And so I think for me, the biggest issue has been insomnia but also just a lot of strange physical symptoms at this time when I was having this kind of anxiety, I was having a lot of chest pain, unexplained, very sensitive, like, you know, and then you get into a cycle where you’re like, oh, what’s happening? Am I, am I having a heart attack? And then you get into like, you know, because you’re just in, you have these, you’re in these weird aches and pains and you can become quite hypochondriac about these things. And I think it becomes a vicious cycle because the anxiety almost makes you think, but I’m, at the moment, I’m out of that cycle and I’m so grateful because I realise that it really is physiologically driven.

And I think a lot of people think that they’re just anxious from a mental space and it really, it’s hormones or hormones have such a massive impact on that.

Le’Nise Brothers: Can you say a little bit more about what you were able to do to help yourself come out of this state that you’ve been describing?

Sjaniël Turrell: I’m going to be honest, I don’t have an answer because, look, my journey. I’ve, I’m a qualified nutritional therapist. I, I, I studied to become a nutritional therapist in 2012 after 15 year modeling career and being a makeup artist as well for many, many years because I have had kind of chronic health issues in the sense of gut issues, IBS and really energy and adrenal issues for years and years and years.

And so this, and I think my profile physicality is that I just I’m very much not often in my parasympathetic state and I, I run on cortisol and adrenaline a lot, and that is just kind of my genetic, I guess, predisposition. And so yes, because of the knowledge I have around, you know, chronic unwellness and adrenal fatigue and all these things that I’ve experienced.

There’s a lot you can do. But I do remember at the time when I was really, really unwell, which I was about 34 at the time I was so desperate to feel better that when I finally found a practitioner that kind of could tell me what was going on, and I just did everything they told me with regards to eating the right way, which was what spurred me on to go and study nutritional therapy because it was so life altering, just eating at the right time for what my body needed.

And I was so dedicated. And what I found when it got 10 years later to the perimenopause is that your resources from a I guess a drive maybe, or just like you, you just have so much less to tap into to say, okay, I’m going to make the change. Like you could be like, yes, I know I have to get up early and get the sun in my eyes, or I know I shouldn’t go on my phone when I’ve been lying awake for six hours, but sometimes you’re just like, I don’t, you don’t have the capacity.

That’s the word. I think it’s lack of capacity. And then obviously so many of us have young children in this phase too. And I remember specifically a massive difference for me was kind of getting to that 2-year-old phase where you are, he’s getting up and coming to our room and with my first one, which I had 10 years earlier, I would be so much more disciplined about saying, okay, like doing this kind of getting up in the night, going and making sure like we get into a routine.

I did not have the capacity for that. I was like, it’s fine, whatever. And I said to my husband, can you please deal? And then he couldn’t be bothered to deal. So like I had now have an 8-year-old who’s literally been in my room because I’m like, I don’t have the capacity and it doesn’t really matter loads.

I think it’s fine. You know, whatever. I’m like, do what you can cope with. I think that is the massive difference. It’s just the resource for capacity to make the right choices. And yes, obviously I think for me, and I think for most women, what they don’t realise is the number one thing I think anyone can do is balance their blood sugar levels.

This is an untapped miracle for people because it’s such a basic thing, that helps all hormones in your body function better. And it’s the simplest, easy as well. I wouldn’t say easy in theory, or it’s easy in theory, but not easy in practice thing to do. But for me it’s always the baseline thing where I would start, where I’d go like, okay, whereas in the initial kind of illness, years of my life, I’d be like, okay, I’m not even, I wasn’t even eating red and orange vegetables because I just had to have nothing that was spiking my blood sugar. I don’t have the capacity to be that extreme for a time, and now I’d just be like, okay, I’m just not eating anything that’s like added sugar sweet. Yes, I’m going to have some toast and bread and I’m not going to go completely OTT. I do it in a manageable way, but I make a conscious decision to say, look, just give your body a bit of space, you know, to improve and something like that. I think people underestimate, they’re like, you know, having that biscuit before bed or for most people is actually going to give you an adrenaline rush and how, and make you not sleep.

You know, it’s simple little things like that. But I don’t think any one thing is a cure all. I’ve taken all the supplements, I’ve done all the, you know, the things you were supposed to do, and sometimes you still don’t sleep. No matter what you do. And I, that’s why I’ve realised it really is down to how sensitive you are to the fluctuations in your body.

And I’m not taking hormones. I take, I try, I have tried many different kinds of supplements and sometimes things help for a time, but they don’t help consistently. And so I don’t have an answer for, um, like the fix. But I think it’s about just figuring out what your, where you can help yourself.

Le’Nise Brothers: I, but I think that’s actually a really valuable thing to point out because when in the conversations around perimenopause this, these days, there’s this dominant theme of HRT is going to solve everything.

And what you’ve said is really interesting in that you’ve tried lots of different things and that’s kind of fundamental as a nutritional therapist as well, things work differently for different people. We all have different physiology. What we just, we operate differently and what works for one person isn’t going to work for another.

But these basics that you have the capacity for, that word capacity is so interesting because I think it’s so right. What you can do in your thirties isn’t necessarily what you can do in your forties, especially when you have more demands on you, whether it’s children, whether it’s work, whether it’s aging parents or siblings and so on and so forth.

Sjaniël Turrell: hundred percent.

Le’Nise Brothers: That capacity, that word capacity, is so interesting and I really like when I work with women who are in perimenopause. I’m always talking about, let’s talk about what we can add in rather than what we’re taking out. Because I think mentally it’s easier to think, okay, well I just have to add this.

Rather than think, okay, I need to take this out and take that out. It’s like going back to balancing blood sugar levels to help manage cortisol. Let’s talk about what we’re adding in for breakfast. You know,

Sjaniël Turrell: One hundred percent,

Le’Nise Brothers: it’s just what are these little tweaks that we can make that are aligned with what you have capacity for?

I love that word capacity. It’s so interesting.

Sjaniël Turrell: I think that most sums up. Do you know what I mean? The space that you get into, it’s not that you don’t want to, it’s not that you don’t know necessarily what you should be doing

Le’Nise Brothers: mm-hmm.

Sjaniël Turrell: But you just have so much less resource internally to draw from that’s outside of being in maybe a bad physical or emotional state.

It’s a different kind of resource, and it does come down to capacity within the whole of yourself, which I find, Yeah, and it’s, I think too when you’ve, when you’re going through the cycle and you are already exhausted ’cause of the cycle, and it’s like almost, you have to almost build up a to a point where you’re so fed up that you’re like, okay, I’m going to make the decision to, I’m going to get to the decision where I’m like, okay, I’m just going to make a change.

But like you say, I think the mistake would be to try and fix everything or do it everything, right? And, um, I do find that for many of, I’m a quite an all or nothing kind of person which is not great because I’m just like, you know, I can’t just have one block of chocolate to scratch the itch. I need to have that whole slab.

And there was a time where I was eating a slab of chocolate every single day. And yes, I would buy the better versions of the chocolate. So I’m not buying a dairy milk. I’m maybe buying like a HU chocolate or something that has way less sugar in it, but that’s still not good for you in any way, shape or form.

Where now I’ve just like put a thing from, I’m like, you don’t buy, you just don’t buy chocolate to be in your house. You simply don’t. That doesn’t mean that if I’m out and I’m like, oh, I’m having a coffee, and I’m like, fine, I’m going to have, you know, like a pain au chocolate today. I will do that. I’ve become much less, military or I think, well, 10, 15, well it’s almost 15 years ago now. Time flies so quickly. It is 15 years ago that I studied nutritional therapy. And you come out of that and you become so regimented about what should be, what you should do and what you shouldn’t do. And I’m like, yeah, when you’re young you have like, again, you have the capacity for that.

And I think some personality types of people, they’re so good at sticking to things that make them feel good, but some of us are not wired that way. And so with perimenopause, I just think is the fact that nothing stays the same. And I think what you pointed about that what’s working for one person is not going to work for everyone.

And I think what happens a lot with nutritional or health gurus is like, they’ve had this incredible experience in their life by doing something that completely changed their life and they suddenly believe this is like the miracle cure for everyone. It 100% will not be. And I mean, I know what worked for me.

And what, and yes, that will work for some people, but I think what the most important lesson to learn is our physiology is transient and it changes so much that what’s working for you in this time period won’t work for you the entire time. But I think in perimenopause specifically, those transient times are much more often it happens, you know, you’re like, oh, I’ve been sleeping well for six months, and then suddenly you haven’t changed anything and you’re like, oh, I haven’t slept for three nights.

So I think that is, for me, the, the most frustrating thing about it is like, you don’t know when you feel like you’ve found something. That’s what you, don’t don’t know how long that’s going to last.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah. Keep an open mind and just think, okay, well there’s always other things that I can try. Speaking of other things, what I also really want to get into is your work as a makeup artist, because I think that evolution that you’ve, you’ve had in terms of careers, really interesting. You studied as an to be a nutritional therapist.

You were already working as a makeup artist. How did you then combine the two? So what, what are the principles that you’ve taken from your study in nutritional therapy you now apply in your work as a makeup artist?

Sjaniël Turrell: Yes, thank you. I think it can often be confusing for people when they say, what do you do?

And I’m like, well, I’m a nutritional therapist and I’m a makeup artist. And they were like, those things have nothing to do with one another. And I’m like, actually, they have very much to do with one another. Obviously going into studying nutritional therapy and having been really interested in health for at least intensive or a decade before I went to study, I was very much about reading all my food ingredient lists and you know, what you put in your body is so important.

And I think a lot of people are on that journey with health. You know, they pick up every, I don’t, I mean, I don’t know I think 15 years ago that was a very common thing. I feel like we’re in a new generation where people don’t always do it that much. And I think we, it’s a reeducation for people. But yes, you read the ingredients list on whatever products you buy to eat because you’re like, okay, what’s going into my body?

And then when I went to study nutritional therapy and I started thinking about the body as a whole organ, and your skin is an organ and it’s um, you know, it absorbs your environment. And I just kind of felt a bit like an idiot ’cause I was like, I’ve always kind of judged people who didn’t put mental and physical wellbeing together with what the food they eat.

To me, that was common sense. And I was like, how have I not understood that the ingredients in the products that I use on my skin and on my body are affecting me as much as the food that I’m eating? So I was like, oh, wait I’m like this doing the same thing. I’m not realising that I’m using ingredients in products every single day that affect my wellbeing.

And so that is kind of where I changed my entire professional makeup kit and the products that I use. All my beauty products, skincare, makeup to natural, organic versions. And so I exclusively use. As far as possible, the best natural brands and products I can find because the, your skin is an organ that interacts with your environment everywhere you go.

And women especially, but men, more so now than ever before are we are using so many care products on our bodies, our skin, everything from what we wash, our hair, our faces, our deodorants, our, you know, our body washes our makeup for sure. All of that affects our wellbeing in some way. It’s exposing us to what’s in there.

And so it is, it’s a very important part of the puzzle.

Le’Nise Brothers: We had a, a call beforehand to prepare for our conversation today, and you talked a little bit about the semantics of the language in this space. Toxins and toxic and clean. I want to talk a little bit about this because you’ll have, you have these naysayers who talk about natural and organic products saying, they’re just a waste of money, they’re not effective.

And that, you know, there’s a lot, there’s a lot of weight behind these words saying things are toxic, saying things are clean. What’s your take on this?

Sjaniël Turrell: Yes. I think one of the points I did make about it was culturally, I’m South African and other South Africans will understand, and not just other South Africans, but cultures that have a more straightforward way of speaking is that we just say things the way we think they are.

You say a word like, oh, that’s toxic and you don’t think of it in terms of the fact that people in some places will immediately interpret that as being like a poison that’s going to kill you. Uh, and I think this is where a hundred percent semantics are so important in these conversations because it really depends on what these words mean to you personally.

In the UK specifically, there is a real consciousness about words people use. I think this is a cultural thing. There’s a larger sensitivity around being really meaningful or understanding what you are busy saying from, I guess illegal and a technical perspective or just whether that’s emotionally emotive.

And so I’ve really had to learn, and this is both when you’re studying nutritional therapy as when you is like if you’re doing how being a healthcare provider and in the space where there’s a lot of conversation about whether things are good or bad for you. And also ’cause I think a lot of health gurus maybe on the American platforms have a similar way of speaking to the South African thing.

We like things that are like, sound a bit extreme or you know, like a sound exciting or you just want to make a point so you kind of over, you over, what’s the word? Like, make that point really hard. And then in the UK in the in Britain specifically, people are a bit sensitive. They’re like, oh, what does that mean?

And so I think it’s really important for us to understand that when you’re thinking about, especially in the space of natural beauty, which can mean a million things by the way. There is no definitive definition. But nothing is, that is in your beauty product is going to be toxic in that way that it’s going, it’s a poison that’s going to kill you today.

But I think the point is that our environments are so full of synthetic elements that our natural bodies are not used to. And the culmination of all these synthetic things that are almost new to the human physiology are having an unknown impact on us over long periods of time. And so I say to people, first of all, you’re never going to find the perfect product or the perfectly inverted comma clean thing to use.

If you want a perfectly clean makeup brand, don’t wear makeup because you’re not born to wear makeup. This is not a natural thing in, in, in and of itself. And there are people who make that choice for themselves. And I think this is what it comes down to is what is important to you personally and what is your personal point of compromise.

For a lot of people, it’s more that they just not educated in understanding that yes, over time, if you are using, I would say an average, and there are differing, I guess there’s a consensus of differing amounts, but let’s say between 80 and 160 different synthetic chemicals on your body every single day of your life in care products only.

So that’s eliminating food, eliminating, um, household things, eliminating the pollution that you’re being exposed to outside or you know, all these things. So just on your care products, and it’s an unregulated use of a lot of synthetic things. That doesn’t mean that the ingredients themselves are unregulated.

There are things that are unregulated in kind of a long term, having studied the impacts long term, that are now being found out. And so there is truth to the fact that we have been for 50, 100 years using things that impact us really, really negatively in the name of beauty. And I say 10 years ago everyone was poo-pooing natural things.

But now in the whole, in France, they’ve completely banned gel nails because they’ve now seen that the impact on health is so negative that this should not be in the public sphere. The UK has not yet banned that, and you can still choose to have that, and you won’t see that immediately. But the reality is that when you go and have these kinds of things put on your nails.

Those, some of the elements in those products are measurable in your urine within 30 minutes of using those products.

Le’Nise Brothers: Wow.

Sjaniël Turrell: The same with synthetic sunscreens. Synthetic sunscreens absorb into your skin. They’re designed to do that. They have a reaction with your skin and the way they absorb or reflect rays of the sun, but some of those things are measurable in your urine within literally an hour of putting it on your body.

So a hundred percent your body does absorb some things that you’re using and this affects your liver. This affects just kind of long-term how your health functions. We, there’s a big thing now about hormone disrupting synthetic chemicals in products that I think is the kind of newer, bigger awareness that people are cottoning onto.

Le’Nise Brothers: I think it’s really interesting from a, a hormone perspective where people don’t realise that our, as you say, our skin is our biggest organ. It’s so absorbent. That’s why, when you take HRT, one of the most effective ways of taking it is by using a gel or a patch, because it goes straight into the bloodstream.

Sjaniël Turrell: Exactly.

Le’Nise Brothers: And of course the dosages will be different, but if you’re putting all of these different synthetic chemicals on your skin, they’re being absorbed by the skin, going into the bloodstream, and the body treats that, like when it’s trying to process it in the liver, like a synthetic form of estrogen.

Sjaniël Turrell: Hundred percent.

Le’Nise Brothers: And if you have a condition like fibroids, for example, where the growth of fibroids is estrogen dependent. You are adding in another estrogen source to fuel the growth of fibroids. This is a problem and I think this is where we have this disconnect with people saying that, natural beauty and clean beauty and conscious beauty, it’s not a thing.

These chemicals, they don’t affect our health. It’s a lot like a disconnect between the understanding of how absorbent the skin actually is and the effects of what these things do actually do in our body.

Sjaniël Turrell: 100%. And I think too, I think the one statement I would like to make about this is in order for anything with regards to health and wellness to be accepted into mainstream thinking, there has to be a lot of studies and research done.

Often the type of research we need is not well funded and it doesn’t come to light. But even when it is, it takes 20 years for any form of research to really become adopted by the mainstream. And so with regards to an ingredient like parabens, which we’ve most of us have heard about as a hormone disrupting thing, and so many brands, whether they’re identifiers, natural or clean or not, will say paraben free because this is a big thing in the industry that is known to be a hormone disrupting ingredient.

But there are still companies, ones that claim to be very sustainable, that because it’s not, inverted commas as a proven fact on paper, they, you know, they don’t have enough trials to prove that this is really happening will still say that science says, it’s fine. And so we still use parabens and you’ll be shocked at the people who still use parabens in their products.

I don’t want to poo poo brands and so, I don’t know if I should say any names, but the point is you really should look still on your ingredients list for, uh, some really well-known French pharmacy brands that people love. I, you know, and because I use natural brands, I automatically, you know, at this time in my life, I know which brands are I use that 100% don’t have those things in. So I don’t even look at the mainstream things that everyone says, oh, I use this, I use this. And I’m like, okay. But I don’t ever look at those things as I don’t use them. And then when I see the ingredients, when clients come to me to say, oh, this is the skincare they use, and I looked at the ingredients, I’m in shock.

I’m like, parabens, almost all the teenage girls I know are using these brands. And I guess my argument with that is like, okay, you can come with this very logical science mind and go, well, it’s not proven. It’s what? It was proven safe and it hasn’t. And I was like, why do we want to wait around to find out in another 10 years that actually it has been like detrimental?

If there’s some smoke signal going off around something saying this might not be good for you, let’s just not use it because I don’t want to find out in 10 years or 15 or 20 years time that, oh, I’ve been using this and this is like really attributed to some cancer. Or like you say, some hormonal issue that so many of us have.

We live in a world where the food, we eat, the water, we have to drink the, everything is contaminated with some form of synthetic kind of byproduct that shouldn’t be in there naturally. Our bodies are incredible. Oh my goodness. Our bodies filter out so much stuff. But why are we not doing the due diligence to just help our bodies lighten that load because, and yes, you might be, this is the other thing that people forget is, like you said, every human has a genetic difference in how they process information that comes into their body.

And some people are way more sensitive to what’s coming in than other people. I know those people who’ve been smoking and drinking nonstop their entire lives and they’re like a hundred years old and they look like they’re never going to die. And they’re like, yeah, but they have like these liver enzymes that are like superpower or something.

I can’t touch caffeine or alcohol or any of these things. I just feel awful. And I always thought I was just like a weakling until I did some DNA testing. I was like, oh, wait a minute. This is literally my genetic code is not allowing me to do these things. It really will affect different people differently.

But that doesn’t make it good for anybody. It just means some of you, some people have more resilience, I guess. I wouldn’t sit around and wait around and be like we’ll wait for science to tell us because there is enough evidence and enough anecdotal evidence to, for us to say that these things are not great.

Having said that, though, there are definite I’m not saying all synthetics are bad, and this is another kind of touch point in natural beauty is that there’s a lot of talk about chemicals are bad and yes, we, those of us who know every single thing that you use on Earth is a chemical. Water is a chemical.

The plants are made of chemicals. So I want to make clear that, to be scientifically or semantically correct? Of course. It’s not about everything is bad. Some synthetic ingredients are better than using the natural versions. But overall, I, if you understand health and wellness, and I’m sure a lot of your listeners are kind of quite focused on that.

I related to this thing of the difference between using a synthetic supplement versus a food state supplement. We know that your body understands how to use the food state so much better than the synthetic. Like the synthetic will plug the holes if your body’s really desperate for something. But when you give it the food state, your body just knows how to use that so much better.

It’s like, oh, okay. It’s giving me what I understand. On paper, those two things may look the same, but in your body they really do have a different outcome. And so this is my view on natural beauty and natural skincare and makeup is that you’re giving your body something that it understands better on a molecular level.

It’s nourishing, you know, it’s plant-based. It comes from nature for the most part. But yes, it also is very complicated in the sense that it’s not that straightforward, but it’s just about understanding how to make better decisions and know what you want from it.

Le’Nise Brothers: You’ve just said understanding how to make better decisions.

So if someone’s listening to this and they’re kind of doing a mental inventory of their makeup bag, what are some easy switches that you would typically recommend people make that are just starting to become interested in, in this space?

Sjaniël Turrell: I think the very first thing and the most important thing, and I think if you an expert on hormones specifically, this will have come up loads, is that fragrance is the number one thing in your home, in your care products that you should switch out.

And the thing is, people think about this in sense of, oh, perfume or body spray or deodorant or like my skincare products that smell nice. This has got to do with your fabric softener, your, your washing powder. The candles that you burn in your house. Anything that has a nice smell.

And I do find that for some people, this is really hard because we are so emotionally attached to fragrances. Like I smell things and I’m like, oh my gosh, that reminds me of when I lived in America when I was 18. Gosh, that’s crazy when you, you know, you smell a certain perfume or you remember your perfume, the first perfume you ever had.

I would like Revlon Charlie Red. Like that used to be like when I was like 13, you know. And so we have these really nostalgic emotional connections. And I think especially I find with things like fabric softener, people really love that smell of their washing. It reminds them of their mom and it reminds, but this does so much untold damage overall because we’re exposed to so much of it.

And interestingly because I’ve not done any synthetic fragrance for about 10 years, I really struggle with anything now that’s, and I used to love perfume, like all kinds of perfume. I really struggle with anything that’s synthetic. I’m so sensitive, I can smell it straight away that I know, oh, this is synthetic.

That doesn’t mean I don’t still love like the thought of some of these nice things. But you know, when you go into those airports things and you just like walk through where everyone’s smelling and it’s just like, I can’t breathe. And I think especially if you’re somebody who gets easy as easily nauseous around environments with lots of smells, your liver is really sensitive to these things and you should stay away from synthetic fragrance.

That’s not to say that something like essential oils is the answer to all of that. Because some people are really sensitive to essential oils. They can be highly irritant for some people, and I’m not a someone who proposes that. You’d be like, oh, you know, I’m I cannot stand burning incense. I do not like it.

It’s not a direct swap for everybody. Some people like it, some people don’t. I try as much as I can to go fragrance free wherever I’m able, with regards to kind of cleaning products and washing products and um, yeah. And then I’m, I’ve gone to a lot of effort to seek out like natural perfume brands.

There are some amazing ones ’cause I do not love kind of these essential oil fragrances myself. But yeah, I think it takes some getting used to getting, but you are doing your body a favor massively and I would like to say, especially if you have neurodivergent or children with SEN issues, this is really adding a massive load to what their bodies have to siphon out every day.

And just also things like ingredients or chemicals that are on new clothes and new bedding. Always wash that stuff. Always, always wash that stuff before you wear them because people forget that that’s gone through so many factories, so many hands, so many, like it’s got to be, you know, hygienically cleaned or antibacterial. But that stuff is not good for you.

That’s the other thing. Antibacterial is also one of the biggest issues for hormone disrupting things with regards to makeup. Sorry, I know it’s like a, there’s so much you could talk about. It’s a lot with regards to makeup, I think. Yes. And, and skincare, parabens number one thing to try and say and phthalates are the things in fragrances, they are the antibacterial elements and things that can be really considered hormone disrupting.

I think the hard thing is starting to read the ingredients is it may is very confusing. There’s a lot. I’m just looking at my list of things here. And then there’s PEGs. They are also synthetic ingredients that I try to avoid, but not, not all of them are as bad as the other, but I would say your number one thing is fragrance.

Le’Nise Brothers: Okay. So fragrance in cleaning products, in laundry. Even things like scented tampons, scent pads, things

Sjaniël Turrell: Oh gosh.

Le’Nise Brothers: Like that. When I talk to clients about this sort of thing, two things I always say to stop using straightaway if they’re using Febreze or those like plugin

Sjaniël Turrell: hundred percent,

Le’Nise Brothers: take, stop using that right away and then stop using scented menstrual products because of just the vagina and the vulva is so, so absorbent and it’s that scent, that fragrance and just having wreaking havoc on hormones and the liver and liver’s ability to metabolise those hormones. I want to just talk a little bit about makeup. What are some brands that you would love to highlight?

Because you do do this on your Instagram, I’ve seen you highlighting interesting makeup brands, interesting skincare brands. What are some brands that you’re loving right now?

Sjaniël Turrell: Okay, I’m going to get to that, but I just say quickly the fact that you mentioned fragrance. Um. What, what do you call it? Like period products.

I, I’m actually a bit in shock because I forgot that existed because it’s so outside of my frame of reference. And so I would say if you’re use, if you’re even considering that, like get rid, like you say, because not only is it the most absorbent area in your body, but most absorbent for estrogen. Um, so I just wanted to, and also the fact that I, we now have natural period products available in most grocery stores.

What people forget too is that your, your basic Tampax and, uh, those brands, they also are made with non-organic, non-organic cottons that are covered in pesticides and you’re basically putting that in one of the most vulnerable areas of your entire body. And so, yes, I think. Buy the best you can afford because we’re in a cost of living crisis.

100%. But if you can afford to go and buy an, like an organic cotton brand for feminine care products, please do that because it is a huge, it is a huge thing. Sorry, I just wanted to say, because I was like, oh my gosh, that that happens. Yes. I forgot about that. So there are so many incredible natural makeup brands and skincare brands, and I think access to natural skincare is amazing.

And yes, there is this, this idea maybe for some people that natural doesn’t work as well. Look, it really depends what you want out of it. And there are brands that are very natural, only used to natural colours, only used natural ingredients. Even organic certified. Getting an organic certified makeup brand is very difficult because you can’t certify things like minerals or water.

These are just naturally occurring kind of elements in the world, so you can’t farm them and make them organic. But there are some requirements that there has to be a certain amount of organic ingredients. I would say your number one point of frame of reference is Cosmos, which is the certification for brands that are safe, have safe ingredients, that could be Cosmos Natural or Cosmos Organic.

And yes, they, they have a very small kind of amount of synthetic ingredients that they allowed in people’s ingredient list. That’s not to say that brands that are not certified are not necessarily good because certifications are also a loop jumping system where you have to do so many tick box things and it’s very expensive for small brands to do.

But if you’re unsure something like Cosmos or Eco Cert, these are ways to know that you’re buying a brand that’s vetted. With regards to makeup and I think the most easily accessible brands, I would say the number one brand that you would find that you can trust and know is good is RMS Beauty. It’s an American brand.

You may have heard of it. Kosas is another one, which is great. Ilia. I would say Ere Perez, uh, these four brands are, I think, the most widely available in the UK. Like you can buy them from SpaceNK, you can buy them from Cult Beauty. And so it’s great now that you can find natural brands on mainstream sites.

There are so many other brands that I use. One of my absolute favorite natural brands is called Madara. And a lot of people have not heard of that brand, but it’s a Latvian brand, but now available on a lot of natural platforms. And I think one of the hardest products to find that kind of rival the mainstream is a good foundation and a good concealer because at the end of the day, they’re trying to create a product without using the same silicones as a base that the mainstream brands do.

And getting that same kind of texture is very, very difficult. If people understood how hard it was to formulate a really effective and good product like that without using those kind of cheap, easy, synthetic ingredients, it’s really hard. And so I would say Madara for that is really great for foundations is one of my favorite ones.

And then I would say my number one go-to place to buy products would be Content Beauty, which is a local kind of natural beauty store in the UK online. The reason I like sending people there is you can go onto that website and every single product that you buy on that website has been vetted for their ingredients and whether or not that is going to be, good or bad for you.

For some people there might be some product ingredients still in there that they want to avoid. Like I said, some are a bit more, you have a point of compromise. So if, I would say, if you’re somebody who’s really interested in just really clean no synthetic colours, because the reality is getting like a nice bright coral or a beautiful pink or bright red, these things do not come from nature.

Natural minerals cannot make these colours. And so they use synthetic colours often. They try their best to use food grade synthetic colours wherever they can, but some of them still, that is the compromise that they make because people want those products to be effective. If you want to avoid all of that, there’s a brand called Inika Organic, and they’re an Australian brand.

And I would say as far as efficacy and clean, they are probably one of the best ones for that. And then something like Tropic, which is a UK kind of brand that a lot of people know about, is also a really good place. They’re unbelievably sustainable company and they also are really good with their ingredients.

So. I don’t think there’s one brand to me that ticks all the boxes. It’s having to pick and choose from different ones. And then coming in with this thing of knowing what you want from it, you sometimes have to say, well, do I care more about the ingredients or do I care more about the efficacy of what I’m using?

Some people just want a little bit of something to make themselves look natural and feel nice, and so they prefer to have the more natural kind of ingredients and they don’t mind reapplying their cream blush after a couple of hours. Other people just wanted to look super effective. And so that’s going to depend what you choose at the end of the day.

Some people really, it’s important that everything’s vegan. Um, other people much, you know, they go, oh, I’d rather use lanolin and honey because these things, or bees wax ’cause these things on, they like the textures and, you know, so it just depends what it is that you want from the products.

Le’Nise Brothers: It is amazing seeing how much the, this space has evolved. I remember 15 years ago going into Planet Organic and they had a small little beauty section and I just remember thinking like, I could really never use, use these products to now, like Content Beauty, a site that I love. I remember Naturismo, RIP, it was such a great, great website, similar to Content Beauty, everything vetted, but it’s now been bought by a French brand.

But you really have a lot to choose from these days. I think the one sticking point is that the colour range for things like foundations and concealers isn’t quite there yet, especially if for darker, darker skin tones. But I think that’s probably a similar issue across the entire beauty industry where there’s still a long way to go in that space.

Sjaniël Turrell: I think it’s, it’s true. And I think my, my number one kind of mission or passion since 12 years ago, 15 years ago, was that I really wanted a all inclusive foundation range that really was good because that didn’t exist at all. Like you say, you know, if you just had access to a couple of brands. And I think the other problem is, unfortunately, is that there are brands that are trying really hard to do the right thing with regards to inclusivity.

But if you’re looking at brands like out of Australia. Small brands out of Scandinavia, they want to cater to everyone, but because the mass of their customer base is not as diverse as maybe other parts of the world, it becomes financially unviable. Because if you only, you know, if only 1% of your clients are buying the right colours or the colours that they need, and you’re an independent brand trying to kind of compete with these massive conglomerates, it becomes almost impossible to continue.

And I’ve sadly seen so many of these smaller brands discontinue their ranges after trying really hard to be inclusive. But I will say as a makeup artist, I’m just going to say this is a general rule for natural makeup because it’s an educational point. A lot of the natural brands are come out of France and they have factories there, but a lot of things are white labeled, so it means that they choose a formula that’s already being made by these factories.

And so the formulation techniques for a lot of brands that come out of France, for example, undertones way too pink for you. If you have darker skin tones, and I’m so this, I’m just putting out there for all the women with darker skin tones who really want to do natural, but they really struggling to find what works for them.

I would say the number one brands you want to go for RMS Beauty is excellent for dark skin tones. Their undertones are the right amount of yellow and red, which is so lacking. In most of these brands, I would say even brands like Madara, which is really inclusive across the board, like they have a really great colour range.

But if you have a golden undertone, a lot of mixed race women have a really golden undertone and it’s almost so yellow that nobody makes that colour if you are quite pale, because a lot of the formulations are kind of focused on the paler, the pinker. And I love now when we are seeing in all the brands where they’re going, okay, it’s like it’s a warm, it’s a neutral, it’s a cool, do you know what I mean?

They’re starting to try really hard to give everyone an option. So I’m going to say RMS really, really good for darker skin tones. Kosas, which is another LA brand. Their undertones have a good amount of yellow and reds and they really are good across the board. And Ere Perez is the other one, Australian brand.

But originally the formula, uh, the founder, she’s Mexican, and I would say out of all the brands she has the most yellow, the yellow is undertones. Especially if you’re looking for concealers. Really hard to find good concealers for dark undertones. And so I’m going to give a shout out to those three brands as kind of like your go-to as a darker skin tone girl.

If you have a skin tone where you’re a bit mixed race, and it’s almost like I find a lot of Middle East, like the, or like I would say like if you’re like a Greek heritage, maybe often some kind of south Asian heritage, you almost have like a dark skin tone with a pink undertone that is also really, really difficult to find.

But I love those three brands for doing really well at finding. But I think also a lot of times, even as a makeup artist, I often have to mix. I have to blend colours together. I have to go, okay, I need this product and I have to add a bit of this to get the right skin tone. Unfortunately it’s impossible to cater to all the incredible amounts of skin tones they are, but from a natural beauty point of view, those are your go-tos.

Le’Nise Brothers: That’s amazing. Ere Perez. I haven’t heard of them, but I’ll definitely be checking them out.

Sjaniël Turrell: Yeah.

Le’Nise Brothers: That’s one thing that I struggle with because in the winter my skin changes across the year. When we met earlier this year, that was probably, so February is probably the palest I would be across the year. So now December I still have like residual,

Sjaniël Turrell: A bit of tan.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah. Yeah. So it’s like I have to have three different, um, almost, yeah, three different, I use tinted, um, a tinted moisturiser, three different ones across the air. Yeah.

Sjaniël Turrell: And a tinted moisturiser is a really good fit if you struggle with the right skin tone.

Because if your own skin tone can still kind of reflect through the product, the match doesn’t have to be perfect. It’s just making sure you’re not graying your skin, which is a number one problem I think with dark skin tones is this thing, this kind of tone that just makes you look quite gray if you put it on your face.

I think too, what I say to a lot of women, especially with darker skin tones, a lot of my personal clients, is I was like, actually no one, no person has one skin tone. You have many different tones on your face, and I think the darker your skin is, the more obvious those changes are. So often your chin and your forehead, much darker than your cheeks.

And so the mistake a lot of people make is they try to match the colour of their cheeks to the rest of their face. And then your forehead and your chin area looks so gray because you’re trying to make it all one colour. And my tip is to find something in the middle of those two colourways that’s more sheer.

Make sure you have the right amount of yellow underneath because you’re always going to look less gray with a bit of yellow and the right amount of red, not pink to kind of just be light much lighter on those areas of your face so that it looks more even toned rather than blanked out and perfect because, well, my way of doing makeup is, that is not the objective, but yes, it’s just, that’s, those are just little practical things because it is harder.

And then obviously for some women, a hundred percent, you do need more than one colour to either blend in different ways as time goes through, you know, as your skin changes through the year. But I do think it is kind of, it’s unrealistic to think that there’s ever going to be any makeup brand that’s going to find your perfect skin tone if you struggle to find a match, because there are as many skin tones as there are humans on the planet.

Le’Nise Brothers: Mm-hmm.

Sjaniël Turrell: So, you know, no one brand can get to all of that. Yeah. And to, and to be mindful that beauty brands, especially natural beauty brands. I have met so many natural beauty brand founders and they’re so passionate about what they do and their mission is to change the world for the better, to help women for the better.

All of them really want to cater to everyone. But running those businesses in the kind of business models of the world with massive, you know, L’Oreal owned brands and you know, whatever, these corporations who literally create the cheapest products and charge so much money for them. But they have also with using the access to as many synthetic ingredients as they want, trying to.

Spend a lot more money on creating your products, having much smaller margins to work with, and then try and have a viable business. They are all trying really hard to do the right thing. And I think you know, it’s just about having patience and being like seeing who you can support as much as possible.

Because if you want brands like these to cater to your needs, they’re going to need you as their clients. If you’re not their client, if you don’t, if you’re not their customers, they can’t, you know, they’re going to have to stop supporting people because they can only do that much. And that’s why sometimes with the right type of sale, like I, I think this is another topic where a lot of natural beauty brands become kind of cult-like, and then they get sold to bigger corporations and then suddenly the ingredients just change and their ethos changes because it then becomes a moneymaking thing.

But I do want to say with companies like RMS Beauty, where Rose Marie Swift, who was the, is the own, you know, the creative director, the owner managed to sell her company to a very like-minded kind of, I guess, investor. And that has helped her brand for the better because now she can really invest in formulating and creating the products that cater to people in the right way and be able to continue doing that.

Yeah. I’m always blown away by these new formulations that are coming out with brands like that. So yeah, it, it’s a complicated thing, but I think if people start thinking of natural brands and natural beauty in this holistic way where it’s not just about skincare and beauty, it’s about sustainability and how, you know, it’s about communities.

It’s about the impact on the earth overall and about whether we as communities who know about these things are going to continue putting our money into these businesses to help them grow and become yeah, make it. It’s the same with organic and natural food. It’s like if the people who can afford it don’t do it, then it’s not going to become viable for the people who can’t afford it.

Mm. Similar kind of concept. It’s such an in-depth topic. It’s, there’s so much to talk about and discuss. I could do it for, you know, days on end. This is why I do a lot of one-on-one clients. I spend time with individuals. I help them find what works for them personally because I think it’s very overwhelming.

Le’Nise Brothers: So we’ve talked about a lot of different things today. We’ve talked about hormones, we’ve talked about perimenopause, skincare, makeup, sustainability. What’s the one thought that you’d love to leave listeners with today?

Sjaniël Turrell: Can I ever just have one thought that’s really, that’s really hard. No. Do you know what I think, I think this is a very important thought. I was like, all of us individually or on a journey, do not beat yourself up for where you are on your journey. There is no perfect. And for those who vehemently get to a point in their life where like this is the only way you may change your mind, you may get to a place in your life where you actually cannot sustain this very perfect way of living, have grace for the people who don’t get it or are going through things that you know, that they don’t necessarily have again, the capacity to be where you’re at or understand what you’re telling them. And I think this is a lesson I’ve learned, as I’ve gotten older and over the years, is that there may be a better or a right way to do things, but that’s not necessarily possible at all times for everyone.

And so don’t be overwhelmed. Do what you can. And I always say to people, do the best you can afford in the moment. Because yes, trying to do things better is really expensive. And this has, for me, being one of the most financially challenging years I’ve ever had in this country. Do you know what? I’m going to give you one tip.

If you want natural beauty and you cannot afford anything, just buy yourself a bottle of natural, organic jojoba oil because that is your makeup remover. That is your moisturiser, that’s your kids’ moisturiser. That’s your husband’s moisturiser. It’s like you can use it on your body, you can use it on your face, and you will have really good skin.

My point is it, it doesn’t have to be fancy. You just need to understand that going for something created by nature as much as possible is just always going to be better for you and your body. You just do the best you can with what you have.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah, I love that. Do the best you can with what you have. Where can people find you?

Sjaniël Turrell: I mean, I’m on Instagram. That’s about it. I’ve I don’t have the capacity for TikTok live. And yes, you can email me, which will, that is also in my bio on Instagram. It’s @sjaniel. You’ll have to put that up somewhere because my name is very difficult to remember or spell. It’s spelled S-J-A-N-I-E-L.

It’s an Afrikaans name. It’s, um, the j If you put the make the j and h in your mind, it’s easier to remember, but it’s Sjaniël and yeah, if you message me on there or you email me, I will get back to you or my website, sjanielturrell.com. But yeah. I’m that is how you find me.

Le’Nise Brothers: Great. Thank you so much.

All of the links will be in the show notes, including places to find you.

Sjaniël Turrell: Thank you.

Le’Nise Brothers: And the beauty brands that you’ve mentioned. Thank you so much for your time and your wisdom.

Sjaniël Turrell: Oh, thank you so much for having me. I really, really appreciate it. It was really, really lovely talking to you about all these things.

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Uncategorized · January 15, 2026

Period Story Podcast, Episode 106, Sonja Rincón: Go To Your Doctor’s Appointments Prepared

How do you navigate a career as a corporate lawyer while also coping with severe insomnia, severe brain fog, feeling disconnected from your body and dealing with medical gaslighting? I get into this and more on this week’s episode of Period Story, Sonja Rincón, the founder and CEO of Menotracker, an AI-powered menopause app that transforms symptoms into personalised insights and support.

In this episode, Sonja shares:

What happened when she was dismissed by her gynaecologist after seeking treatment for brain fog and a frozen shoulder
When she stumbled upon the term medical gaslighting and how it made her understand that she wasn’t alone in her experience
What to do if you feel like you’re not being taken seriously by your doctor
How 1 in 10 women have left their jobs due to the impact of perimenopause and menopause symptoms, and a quarter of women have considered quitting due to the impact of these symptoms at work
How her experience led her to found Menotracker
Cultural differences in conversations around menstruation and perimenopause across Europe
How tracking symptoms in perimenopause and menopause can help you have a better understanding of your health
The importance of understanding what any health app you use does with your data
And of course, the story of her first period

Sonja says that when you use an app, it’s really important that you really check what they are going to do with your data, especially any health related data. If you’re not comfortable, don’t use the app.

Thank you, Sonja!

Get in touch with Sonja:

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SHOW TRANSCRIPT

Le’Nise Brothers: Hi Sonja. Thank you so much for coming onto the podcast today. I’m really excited to speak to you, to hear about the amazing company that you’ve built, but let’s start with the first question that I ask all of my guests, which is tell us the story of your very first period.

Sonja Rincón: First of all, thank you for having me. I’m very excited to be here. My very first period I think I will never forget that. I was 10 years old in school and all of the sudden, I felt like I felt a slight cramp and I just started bleeding and I had no clue what was going on whatsoever.

So I went to the bathroom, to get some paper towels and just keep in mind, it was a time where there were no smartphones. Actually, there were no phones at school at all. And I was totally overwhelmed, so I just went to a teacher and they helped me out. They gave me some panty liners and that was basically everything that happened and after that I just had to deal with it.

Le’Nise Brothers: So you were 10 years old. You started your periods quite young. And what sort of education had you had about menstruation and what was happening to your body?

Sonja Rincón: Well, basically all of my knowledge at this point was from school lessons.

It was from biology lessons, basically. So in theory I did know what was happening, but the reality was there were no persons talking about that. I didn’t live in an environment where women were comfortable talking about that at all. I didn’t have any more knowledge than the biology class at the end.

Even after it started actually.

Le’Nise Brothers: And so how did you educate yourself about what was happening to your body?

Sonja Rincón: I started rereading biology books with slightly more interest. And before it it started and I tried to talk to friends about that, but that was quite early. So it was very difficult to find someone to talk to.

But actually there were maybe some like, magazines for teenagers that picked up on the topic, but that was about it actually.

Le’Nise Brothers: And did you have any issues with your period when it first started?

Sonja Rincón: I was one of the very lucky persons who had severe cramps. I felt sick. Usually I was so much in pain, I could barely move.

But the issue was, nobody believed me, so it was like, oh no, you’re faking it. You just don’t want to go to school. And which didn’t make sense even at this point of time because I always loved going to school and I was a pretty good student. I didn’t mind studying. I actually loved going to school.

But in this regards, I was completely dismissed by everyone. She’s making it up and that’s not possible, and it’s just normal.

Le’Nise Brothers: How long was it before someone started to take you seriously?

Sonja Rincón: Well I would say five years.

Le’Nise Brothers: Wow.

Sonja Rincón: Probably.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah. And so what happened then?

Sonja Rincón: Well, that’s basically when I had a boyfriend and I went to the gynaecologist.

It was very much the very first person that, that took that seriously. But the answer to the whole problem was basically, okay, we’ll give you hormonal contraception, so you’re on the pill you won’t have to deal with that anymore. And that’s pretty much what happened.

Le’Nise Brothers: And once you went on the pill, what was your experience of your period like?

Sonja Rincón: Well, I mean, it was at the beginning because it wasn’t one of those mini pills it was more regular which was, which was nice because before that I wasn’t really aware of when it would start because the cycles were quite irregular for some years.

That was nice actually. But, I gained some weight and, my mood started to change. I, it just felt a bit weird. But I wasn’t really sure that at that time that might be caused by the pill actually.

Le’Nise Brothers: Right.

Sonja Rincón: I wasn’t aware of it.

Le’Nise Brothers: And how long were you on the pill?

Sonja Rincón: Oh my God. I changed pills couple of times until they had the one where you don’t get your period anymore, which was honestly a relief.

But probably 12 years.

Le’Nise Brothers: Okay.

Sonja Rincón: Yeah.

Le’Nise Brothers: So what happened after 12 years.

Sonja Rincón: I wanted to get pregnant. I had my daughter when I was 28. And right after birth, actually, I just went back on the pill again.

Le’Nise Brothers: Right. Okay. So what was that experience? Because it’s interesting given the work that you do now where you’re tracking symptoms, around perimenopause and menopause, and you had this short window where you weren’t on hormonal contraception, what was your experience like not being on hormonal contraception, did you have in mind, oh, I’m going to track what’s going on, or were your thoughts primarily focused on trying to conceive?

Sonja Rincón: Well I was primarily focused on trying to conceive at that point and really after giving birth, my only thought was, oh my God, I don’t want menstruation, cramps, and problems coming back because I was so afraid.

I was so afraid of the pain and of the nausea and of all of that. Well actually my interest for tracking all of that, that just came back a couple of years ago actually.

Le’Nise Brothers: Right.

Sonja Rincón: When I stopped taking hormonal contraception because I was taking a deep dive into hormones actually and what contraception might cause and the whole discussion about hormones and cancer that’s when I stopped hormonal contraception, actually, and that’s when my whole journey started.

Le’Nise Brothers: Right. Okay. How long would you say that you were on the pill for about 12 years, then you had a gap where you were trying to conceive, and then what was that time period between you going back on the pill and then when you stopped it? Most recently,

Sonja Rincón: Another 10 years.

Le’Nise Brothers: Wow, okay. Okay.

And then can you say more about what it’s been like since you’ve stopped taking the pill?

Sonja Rincón: First of all, I was really afraid of stopping, honestly. It wasn’t very enjoyable just the thought of it. But I wanted to get on HRT, which is just not not happening when you’re on hormonal contraception.

Basically I started to track, that’s when I was aware. I was like, okay, I want to know what’s happening. I want to know exactly what I’m feeling. And I really, it was, I think the first step of the whole journey was really listening to my own body. Because I wasn’t used to it anymore. I was completely disconnected to my own body, which is very interesting when you realise it first.

Le’Nise Brothers: When you started to listen to what your body was telling you, what were the, some of the things that you learned?

Sonja Rincón: Well, I mean, besides the issues I had with still, with my period, which were not as severe as when I was a teenager. That completely shifted. That there were still cramps, but it wasn’t as bad though.

I realised that I had lots and lots of other symptoms really. Like brain fog and I had a frozen shoulder at one point and the symptoms, they were really, really random. So I really tried to make sense out of that somehow. But it took me a while to, to draw a conclusion, honestly.

Le’Nise Brothers: And what sort of conclusions were you able to draw?

Sonja Rincón: The first one was basically, obviously I’m in perimenopause. That was one of my very first conclusions. And the second one, after talking to my former gynaecologist was that obviously not much has changed. I was dismissed several times for those symptoms as well, so I sort of relief the experience of being dismissed for symptoms.

Le’Nise Brothers: Right. I think that’s very, it’s very common being dismissed for your symptoms and it’s rather frustrating as well. And you’ve, there’s been this through line throughout your life where you’ve had these symptoms and you’ve been dismissed over and over again, and was there a point perhaps once you came off the, and you started to notice the signs that your body was giving you, and you got the information that you thought, okay, there’s something I’m being dismissed.

There’s something I need to figure out what I can do next.

Sonja Rincón: Absolutely. In the meantime of the whole journey, I finished up a law degree. I got educated. I lived through a whole shift where so much more interested in women’s health because now it was something that really affected me on a daily basis because of the symptoms and, I got angry for quite some time that nobody ever told me, like enough about what was going on in my body. And I would say I’m very much interested in information and reading up on things and so on. So I was really actively looking for solutions to make sense of everything and get educated and all of that.

But I found it was quite difficult really to find real information. And and then I stumbled upon the term of medical gaslighting, which where I was really very much hooked on the term. And I was like, oh, obviously that’s something that’s happening everywhere in the world. So I was like, okay, if I’m having those issues I’m not so special.

There must be millions of other women going through the same thing. Actually, that was basically the whole starting point that led me to start the software development of our meno tracking application of the, for the menopause and perimenopause.

Le’Nise Brothers: So medical gaslighting. Can you just say what that term means for people who might not be aware or might not have heard that term before?

Sonja Rincón: Absolutely. It’s basically like in a nutshell, it’s when you go to your doctor and you say, oh, I’m having all of those issues. I’m feeling really bad. I have those cramps and, all couple of symptoms, and the only answer you will get is that’s normal.

Or maybe, and that’s what happened to me. You’re imagining that. You’re too young to have perimenopausal symptoms, so you’re just imagining that go deal with it like, like all the other women.

Le’Nise Brothers: You mentioned earlier that this is something that goes on all around the world, and it’s so true.

I speak to women all over the world and there seems to be this common experience of medical gaslighting from when you first get your period to around fertility, and then going into perimenopause and then post menopause. It’s just these themes of, oh, everyone, like you said, everyone experiences painful periods or periods are supposed to be painful, or you, maybe you’re just stressed or it’s all in your head and it’s incredibly, incredibly frustrating. And I’m just curious before we start to talk about your business, because I do want to spend a lot of time speaking about it, but based on your experience and based on what you’ve learned from your company, what would you say to women who are experiencing medical gaslighting. What would be your advice to them?

Sonja Rincón: I would say go to your doctor’s appointments prepared. It doesn’t matter if you like pen and paper, if you use a mobile application, do whatever you feel comfortable with, start tracking your symptoms because if you go somewhere with data and like with days and times of when you experience things, it’s way more difficult for a doctor or any other person to dismiss you.

Also you don’t you don’t feel crazy because the thing is that when somebody’s really good at gaslighting you or you don’t have the confidence of, or you maybe you’re not used to stepping up for yourself you might feel very frustrated and you might feel like you’re going crazy.

So really prepare yourself. Just be prepared. That will change everything.

Le’Nise Brothers: Oh yeah, absolutely. Preparation is so important and like the way when I talk about it I talk about it like almost having a vocabulary for what you’re experiencing, like actually being able to describe it in depth, but also the impact that it’s having on your life because, it’s if you say that, oh, I’m in pain. I have painful periods, you might hear, oh, well that’s normal when you have a period, and we know that it’s not, but then if you say, my periods are so painful, I’m missing a week of work every month. Or I’m experiencing a frozen shoulder and it’s stopping me from playing tennis or something like that.

That makes it more tangible and I think something that doctors maybe can connect with a little bit more because they see the impact that is having on you. What’s really interesting now is then speaking about the business that you’ve built and then connecting it with your own challenges that you’ve described around perimenopause.

Can you describe, firstly, the impact that perimenopause had on you physically, but perhaps on your career?

Sonja Rincón: Absolutely. I wasn’t aware that I was in perimenopause until years later of, of course, right. Because I didn’t even know it was a thing. Retrospectively, I would say at the worst thing was the brain fog.

I forgot everything. It was sort of reliving my pregnancy where I already had those very similar issues, right? Forgetting stuff like or putting your keys into the freezer or something. Really weird things happening. But what was the worst for me and what impacted me really a lot was the lack of sleep.

I was, I mean, I was never a person that had a really, really good night’s sleep. But that really got so bad. I think for years I didn’t sleep more than three or four hours.

Le’Nise Brothers: Really? For years. Wow.

Sonja Rincón: Yeah, I was constantly tired. I thought I was really depressed, so they put me on SSRIs, which was really great because it didn’t, did not help me at all.

I got rid of the SSRIs once I realised, okay, it seems to be a hormonal issue though. And honestly didn’t even feel the difference when I got rid of them and I started HRT things started you know, to improve so much. I was really glad actually, that I figured out it was perimenopause myself at the end.

But it’s my lack of concentration, I had mood swings. I didn’t have any vasomotor symptoms, meaning like hot flushes or night sweats or anything. I’m really grateful for that, even though that might have helped me figuring it out earlier, what was going on. Yeah, but I would say the lack of sleep and the issues with my mood, I think were impacting me the most.

Definitely. Yeah.

Le’Nise Brothers: What’s so interesting is the conversation around perimenopause where I think it’s definitely changed over the last even five years, where there is a greater understanding of the fact that perimenopause is a phase of life that exists. Because I remember when I think maybe about 10 years ago, I was working with a client and she, we were talking about perimenopause and she told me that she was speaking to her doctor about it, and her doctor said, oh, well that’s not a real thing. And I just thought that is, that’s absolutely crazy because we know that it is a real phase of life. There’s a lot of scientific evidence to back it up. It’s now really interesting now to see the impact that of education on women and there’s a greater awareness of, oh, I’m in my forties, something might be going on for me.

Talk a little bit about the brain fog and how it impacted your career because what’s really interesting is that we see that one in 10 women have left their jobs due to the impact of menopause and perimenopause symptoms, and about a quarter of women have considered quitting due to the impact of these symptoms at work.

Can you talk a little bit about the impact on you personally?

Sonja Rincón: Yeah.

Le’Nise Brothers: Can you, let’s just start there. Absolutely.

Sonja Rincón: Yeah. Absolutely. The, the brain fog, it’s sort of, it starts like creeping into your day. It’s not like you wake up and it’s there all of the sudden. What I felt was everything was much more stressful because I couldn’t remember things.

And I wasn’t used to that, so I really thought there was something wrong. I mean, not at the very beginning, obviously there, it was just the increase of stress because if you’re a very organised person, and I give you an example, I was basically I did study law in the evenings where after my divorce, my daughter was three.

And I went to work during the day and I put her to, to sleep and then I studied and I did that for four years to get my law degree. So I was very much focused. I was very well organised and, I was really relying on my brain to work properly. So otherwise it would’ve taken me forever to finish the whole thing.

But that sort of started declining. I couldn’t really remember things, even appointments. It wasn’t that difficult complex stuff at work. At the beginning, it was just a name here and there, which is not great when you have to network. Right. I couldn’t remember things that colleagues told me at work.

I really completely forgot them. It’s not even that they came back after I was aware. It was like every time, oh, I never heard that before. And that was a very, very strange experience because it feels different than forgetting something and then remembering at some point these things were just. Really gone. Gone. That was pretty stressful. So I started writing down notes a lot. So I was walking around with the notebook, taking notes of everything. And at some point I realised that I couldn’t remember anything anymore, really. My notebook was like, I went through notebooks, like other people through bags of candy.

Right. It was very stressful to keep up. And that was really impacting my life and that I had a very short period of time where I thought I might have some sort of a dementia or something because it was really weird. I was very much concerned. Thank God that was at the very end where I figured out okay, that that’s perimenopause. But I was very much concerned, at least for like two or three months, I thought, okay, maybe I’m just, I will have dementia, like my great mother and I will die and I will not remember anyone. That was a pretty, pretty horrible experience. But what it also did was, of course, I mean your self confidence, it’s so declining so much.

Taking on new tasks when you know, you cannot remember anything. You don’t do that. I honestly, even before the brain fog and everything started, I didn’t see a lot of purpose in my work. So it was not like I was so much in love with my job and it all of the sudden went south, that didn’t happen.

But, what it did though is it started me questioning if, since I thought I was maybe like really sick. I was like, okay, maybe. Maybe that’s not the thing for me. Maybe that’s also like a part of it is, it’s not only that I might be have, might be developing a, some sort of dementia, but also maybe because I’m not happy.

So basically the whole process also triggered these thoughts of, is this what I want? Do you really want to continue like that, living like that with the notebook and sort of having fear in the morning of going to work and could I live up to the whole expectations and pressure? Because at some point your colleagues realise it.

You can have a perfectly flawless notebook with you all the time, but if you can’t remember your colleague’s name, it’s, that’s very obvious. Something’s wrong. Also at work, obviously you cannot talk to your colleagues and say, Hey, just forgot your name.

So once you have reached a certain level at work or you might be up for a promotion or, whatever, which I wouldn’t have considered at that point, honestly, because I was barely thinking that they could keep up with the work as it was. It’s also a very lonely place, really. It’s a very lonely place because you cannot talk to anyone.

That wouldn’t be very beneficial. At work you have to keep it together and you don’t want to destroy your life’s work if you want, if you want to go for the promotion or even, the image of others, like she remembers stuff. She gets things done.

That’s, you are proud of that and you don’t want to lose it, but you feel like you’re losing it. So it’s very much of a battle. It was, yeah.

Le’Nise Brothers: What happened next? Once you realised what was going on, what did you do? So you talked about going on HRT. What happened next from a career perspective?

Sonja Rincón: I kept basically the thought of, is this the right thing for me? That did persist and I decided to quit because I didn’t see any purpose in what I was doing. Honestly, I didn’t, I was really, at that point I was reading up a lot on like women’s health and perimenopause and all of those things.

And I always loved technology. So that was always one of my hobbies was like, AI and building with AI and no-code tools, building apps and figuring out what the new trends are in AI and things like that. So that was something that happened parallel to me starting to rethink my job and what I was doing. At the same time I found, okay, HRT could be an option so I looked into that and at the beginning, the only reason why I thought HRT was because when the doctor told me, well, you’re way too young. You’re too young for that, that’s not possible. Having those all of those symptoms I was so prepared. I just said I’m not imagining anything and I’m not leaving your office before you hand me over that prescription. And the answer of the doctor was, well, okay, here’s a prescription, but just so you know, that’s not going to help you.

And I was like, okay, I will, I’ll see about that. Well, obviously it really helped me. That also, that was a situation that it pushed me to do what I’m doing now. That was one of those moments. Where I was like, okay I’m prepared already. I had to fight for a prescription. And that was not the doctor of the general public health system in Austria.

I went there, I had to pay for that. Fighting for my prescription cost me 150 euros.

Le’Nise Brothers: Wow. And you just think like the impact that that had on your life. When you, when your doctor said you are too young, how old were you at that point?

Sonja Rincón: 41.

Le’Nise Brothers: Wow. Okay. Okay. Wow, that’s so interesting because, we do know that perimenopause, it can start in our early to mid forties and we typically talk about it as a very gradual process. That’s so interesting that you then saw this immediate impact and then you were playing around with AI and technology is as your out of work hobbies. What then was the impetus that led you to founding your company Menotracker?

Sonja Rincón: There was one more thing happening that really upset me, and it was one of my very good friends not getting a promotion at work because she was so impacted by the symptoms. So, and that totally triggered me. I was like, okay I know I, I knew already what I went through.

Right. And it was like, okay that just can’t happen. This lack of education this lack of support at work and you might be working like your whole life for that promotion or, or still, I mean, you deserve it. It made me really, really sad that she didn’t get the promotion.

In the meantime, she’s all fine and she’s doing a great job and all of that. But at that point I was very much upset and I was like, okay. Obviously in, in Austria where I’m still based, the whole perimenopause and menopause and all of these women’s health topics, they’re not as much in the public as in the UK. I would say the UK is at least 15 to 20 years ahead of everyone else in the European Union.

Le’Nise Brothers: Really?

Sonja Rincón: Yeah. Yeah.

Le’Nise Brothers: Can you say a little bit more about that? Because I find that fascinating because I think the assumption is that geographically we are in Europe, we must all be having these conversations, but then you dig into what’s going on culturally. For example, different attitudes towards women in different European countries.

Say more about what the conversation is in the public space in Austria around perimenopause and just women’s health in general.

Sonja Rincón: I would say up until two years ago, there was almost no dialogue about perimenopause and menopause at all. It did pick up and there are like a couple of events per year like dedicated to that.

There’s maybe just really one bigger one and there is a self-help group. But that’s about it. It’s very difficult talking about it really because what was so interesting is when I started the company, right, I was like, okay, I want to make an impact.

I want to start the dialogue. Let’s see what we can do about that. And I reached out to doctors I mean to women anyways, because it was always in Facebook groups talking about that. But, I was, so, I was actually, I was so shocked about how much it was dismissed. Like when I even came up with the idea that we could track symptoms and we, there could be a platform where you can get educated.

The response I got was, nobody needs that. That’s a niche. It’s a niche market. Even when I applied for grants it was like, oh no, that’s not innovative. Nobody’s going to use that. Don’t do that. So it was very, very clear that, not only women had no idea, but also doctors had no idea.

I, I tried even very recently, a few weeks ago, I tried again to onboard an expert from Austria actually to our experts pool. And the thing was, it was so difficult because I couldn’t find anyone who was willing to collaborate with another doctor, so I didn’t. I don’t have an Austrian expert in our pool because the responses I got were, well, if I am here, I’m the only expert.

And I was like, okay, that then that’s not happening because I’m looking for a team, which is usually more than one person. So the doctors are not even willing to like, collaborate. The problem is that there is there are very few who really know anything about perimenopause. But they’re not even talking to each other.

That’s that the problem is that a dialogue in like in the public space, like a real dialogue is just not happening yet. I think what they need is a study on the economical impact of perimenopausal symptoms for employers. I think that would be something that would sort of turn it around.

Le’Nise Brothers: Is there no equivalent to, so like for example, in the UK we have these female celebrities who’ve been on television for a long time here really driving the conversation. And there’s a woman called Davina McCall, quite famous in the UK, has been on TV for a long, long time, and she has made programs around perimenopause, her experience, now has written a number of books about it, and she’s sort of spearheaded this big public conversation, which a number of other celebrities have started to back and add onto. Is there no equivalent in Austria?

Sonja Rincón: No, unfortunately not. Not yet. Right. I mean, I hope, I hope there will be.

Because this has its pros and cons when you have like a VIP starting the dialogue. but I think in terms of starting the dialogue, it would be so great to have someone but no, unfortunately not yet.

Le’Nise Brothers: And what about periods? Just to a sk a little bit more about the wider women’s health conversation.

Are periods spoken about quite openly, or is it still a taboo?

Sonja Rincón: It’s still a taboo. That’s still a taboo. Yeah. And you would never, ever think of talking about that openly in the workplace, for example. I wouldn’t because you would be afraid of being, I wouldn’t want to say like harassed, but at least dismissed and, you know, people like rolling over their eyes and not taking you seriously.

I mean, no, you wouldn’t.

Le’Nise Brothers: Wow, that’s, I mean, I’m sure, I know there are workplaces where you wouldn’t necessarily walk around with your tampon in hand going to the loo. But there are big campaigns where, women are saying, we need to talk about this stuff. We need to walk around with our tampons or whatever.

Don’t hide your tampon up your sleeve. I remember last year there was a tampon company, they had a big ad on the buses throughout Central London and you could see the tampon string. And that was like I remember seeing that and thinking, wow. Like I, that’s amazing.

Sonja Rincón: I mean, honestly, I would be glad if there was a movement like that in Austria.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah.

Sonja Rincón: Really very much. But I don’t see it happening fast, honestly.

Le’Nise Brothers: Right.

Sonja Rincón: It’s everything takes a bit longer.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah.

Sonja Rincón: I mean, I’m pretty sure in, maybe in 10 years the thing will be, it’ll be different, but for now it’s definitely not the focus.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah.

Sonja Rincón: For anyone.

Le’Nise Brothers: Okay.

Yeah. So this is then having an impact on you being able to bring experts onboard into your company, into your team of experts.

Can we just backtrack a little bit and talk, so the app that you founded, the company you founded is called Menotracker, and this is really about tracking symptoms that you are experiencing during this time of life. Can you just share a few insights that women have gained through using the tracker that have then gone on to improve their health and wellbeing.

Sonja Rincón: Absolutely. Yeah, it was, first of all, it’s the education. We also have an educational part of it. First is the awareness. I’m not crazy. I do have those symptoms. That was the very first response of women was like, oh my God. Now I know i’m not imagining that. You can validate what you’re experiencing yourself, so you don’t need someone else to do that for you, which really helps your self confidence.

That was one of the very first things. And then basically seeing okay, the impact of activities you’re doing. Basically or your sleep or your mood and all of that. You are basically able to see how it’s all playing to very well together. So you can see okay for example, it’s the experience is also are so different, but for some women activity level, let’s say your goal is eight to 10,000 steps a day, right? Which is something that women might already do, but seeing that it might actually help you, for example, with your, with days of your hot flashes and things like that’s basically what you can find out. It’s on a very personal level.

What can I do to improve my situation? Not necessarily only focused on HRT and all of those things, but basically what can you do that is, is a very little effort, but just basically listening to your body again, because that’s what it’s doing also, is it forces you to listen to your body.

What we’re working on now, which is really great and we’ll have that in a few weeks now, which is testing, is you will be able to draw a whole report you can bring to your GP showing what has happened since your last appointment.

Le’Nise Brothers: Wow.

Sonja Rincón: Really based on your own data, and that’s helping a lot.

Really. I love it. I’m testing it at the moment myself and that’s going to be for free also, so women can take advantage of that. You can actually track everything. You don’t have to remember it if you can’t, and then you can just decide if you want to share that with your doctor or not.

Le’Nise Brothers: Wow, that’s amazing. It’s amazing to have something that is specifically focused on this time of life, so perimenopause and beyond, and not necessarily having to do this in like a menstrual like a period tracker, which, a lot of us would still be using, going through perimenopause to have something that’s quite, quite specific to this time of life is really important. Something that’s really interesting is the idea of using a health tracking app. Can you just say a little bit more about that, whether that you’ve seen, we’ve already talked a little bit about the cultural differences between the UK and Austria in terms of talking about per perimenopause, but is there a difference between the two countries in terms of using these sorts of apps to track information? Is this something that people are quite accustomed to doing?

Sonja Rincón: I would say maybe for your periods women are more like used to using it. I would say for perimenopause.

Austria is not yet our market because you have to be very aware of the problem itself before you, you have the idea of actually tracking the symptoms. I would say, honestly, most of our users are in North America at the moment. It’s very interesting. Yeah. We have a subsidiary in Canada already because because of that I think that there is a big difference.

It’s not that women in Austria are not used to tracking things, but I would say more maybe the periods, but the, yeah, there’s too little education regarding perimenopause.

Le’Nise Brothers: Okay. Can you just say more like, that’s really interesting. So you’re based in Austria, but you, your biggest market is North America.

Can you just say more a little bit about why the focus on the US and Canada?

Sonja Rincón: Sure. It’s actually I think it was sort of a coincidence. I went to lots of events and I talked a lot to women, like everywhere. I went to medical congresses and things like that but also for example, to the Web Summit in Vancouver this year and so on.

And we really talked a lot to women there. And it’s probably because, women are more open to innovation in North America, but also in the UK. Right? The UK, the Netherlands, the Nordics, I would say in Europe are the countries which are more interested in innovation and trying new things.

I think that’s basically might be basically the reason. Even though we do have our application now in 37 languages at the moment, we found that it was, people were very much open in North America to the idea of tracking things and I think one of the reasons why they were particularly interested in us was we are a privacy first application.

So yes, we do store data in the EU, but we also have a system in place that even if something would happen, it would be impossible to connect private data of women to the symptoms tracked. So yeah, we made sure of that, and I think that’s something that really speaks to women in, especially in the United States at the moment, where we had some scandals, let’s put it like that.

And I’m personally, with my legal background and all of that, I just, I just, I don’t know. I just don’t understand how something like that can happen because selling out women’s data can only be based on greed. It’s like because what else can be the reason if you do research and if you really want to help you don’t need like personal addresses or from women. You don’t. You just don’t need that.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah, and that’s a really interesting point because we’re being asked to rely more and more on technology to store different types of information about ourselves, including our most personal health information, and we want to make sure that this information is being stored and treated with care.

And you add, as you mentioned, the context of the US where I have women who say to me, I live in the US and I don’t know if I should be using a period tracking app right now. Because what if they, what are they going to do with my data? Are they going to, what if I have a miscarriage and what are they going to do with that information?

And it’s quite scary. And so it’s quite reassuring to hear that, these privacy concerns are are really important to, to you and you weave that into how the company considers data.

Sonja Rincón: Yeah, absolutely. Because actually that was at the Web Summit in Vancouver where women were saying, Hey, that’s so cool.

You have a, like a tracking application, but what are you going to do with the data? And I was and I talked to women also from the United States who were telling me all of those things that had happened in states where abortion was illegal. Things like that. And it got me thinking because honestly, being like born and raised in Europe with GDPR protection of everything, you don’t spend a lot of time thinking about that.

But actually that was the reason why I was like, okay. Obviously that’s a big problem. It’s not in my business model to sell out women. Because the exact opposite is the idea. The idea is to help. To really help. Yeah. But everybody can say that because everyone’s saying that rather, I mean there are like apps that had big scandals and they still have on their homepage, trust us, we’re not selling out their data.

Well, everybody can say that, but we will in a few weeks. We’ll invite people to like, to audit our application. We have a few things that need to be done to finalise the whole process because we were restructuring everything that we have so we can meet our own standards of what data privacy should be which is a standard way above everything that’s required.

That’s something that’s so important to me. I cannot, I don’t even have a word for it. Because you should be able to rely on it and especially, yes, you have to use technology for everything in your life, and you should be able to rely on it and you should be able to trust.

And I think the issue of lost trust is the biggest one in the health app space at the moment. Maybe it’s not talked about as much as it should be, but it’s definitely an issue. And it has to be addressed also.

Le’Nise Brothers: Absolutely.

Sonja Rincón: In the public space. Yeah.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah, absolutely. So in terms of Menotracker, you mentioned the audit that you’re going to be doing.

You also mentioned the ability to take your notes to your GP. What else have you got coming up next?

Sonja Rincón: Well, at the moment we’re working on a community feature. That should be finalised also before the end of this year where basically only doctors who are certified by International Menopause Society will be able to post content because for me it’s very important.

We don’t have Instagram 2.0 experts posting stuff. Right. I think that’s a big issue. I mean, I’m very grateful, honestly. For VIPs and social media to start the dialogue. That was brilliant. And I think that has speeded up the process a lot really. But you cannot rely on things just from social media.

You should be able to see the real source of information. Yeah, so basically we’ll have a community feature that will allow women to get educated and to find out everything there is. And by the way, also complete being completely anonymous the whole way through. That’s part of it. But you will be able to find everything from osteoporosis through incontinence.

The risk of, increased risk of developing a cardiovascular disease you name it, sexual health, whatever we want to cover everything that’s basically where I’m onboarding experts at the moment who will cover those topics. That’s one thing that we have lined up and I’m very much looking forward to it.

And the second thing that will be coming also within the next few weeks is you will be able to connect your smart device to the application.

Le’Nise Brothers: Right. Okay. That’s really interesting. What’s the one thought that you’d like to leave listeners with today?

Sonja Rincón: I would say ask yourself, like when you use an application, for example, really check what are they going to do with the data.

Ask critical questions and if you don’t feel comfortable, don’t use an application because you should feel comfortable. Even if you stick to pen and paper, which is, it might be more difficult if you if you feel that’s right for you, just do that. But what I would say, what’s so important is ask your doctor critical questions.

Go to your doctor’s appointments prepared, and if you don’t feel well taken care of, change your doctor.

Le’Nise Brothers: Fantastic. I a hundred percent agree with that. Where can people find you?

Sonja Rincón: People can find me on LinkedIn because I’m traveling a lot, but I’m very eager to respond and you can find also always new information on menotracker.com on our homepage.

Le’Nise Brothers: Fantastic. Thank you so much for coming onto the show today. It was wonderful speaking to you and hearing your experience and getting more insights into the company that you built.

Sonja Rincón: Thank you very much for having me. It was my pleasure.

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Period Story · January 8, 2026

Period Story Podcast, Episode 105, Ruby Raut: We Have To Get Comfortable Talking About Periods

On this week’s episode of Period Story, I had the pleasure of speaking to Ruby Raut, a Nepali-born environmentalist and the co-founder and CEO of WUKA, the UK’s first reusable period underwear brand.

In this episode, Ruby shares:

How she ended up using reusable period products from her very first period
The impact of the Nepalese practice of chhaupadi and how she felt treated almost like an untouchable
How menstrual taboos impacted her education and how she was able to go on to gain a degree in environmental sciences
Why having access to clean toilets and water can impact your experience of menstruation
The impact of single use menstrual products in the UK – over 200,000 tons of disposable tampons and pads are sent to UK landfills each year
How using one pair of period underwear replaces 196 pads or tampons going to the landfill
Why Wuka supports grassroots sports and how they got 6,000 girls into sports in 2025
And of course, the story of her first period

Ruby says that when we talk to young people about periods in a way that is accessible to them, we take the embarrassment out of these conversations.

Thank you, Ruby!

Get in touch with Ruby:

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SHOW TRANSCRIPT

Le’Nise Brothers: Hi Ruby. Thank you so much for coming onto the show. I’m really excited to speak to you, talk about the work that you do, the amazing products that you make. But first, let’s kick off by getting to the story of your first period.

Ruby Raut: Thank you, Le’Nise, for having me. So I’m Nepali born, so I, I was born in Nepal, uh, and I moved to UK when I was 20 years old. So growing up my period was very different to girls growing up here. Didn’t have many choices around period products, so basically like how we do generationally, whatever your mother used, you ended up using the same product, right?

So my mum handed me her oldest sari cut into small pieces. That’s what my sister used. It was totally normal for me to get that. But first period, what she told me was like, I cannot be staying at my home. So she told me that I have to go and stay at my aunt’s house. And in the beginning I genuinely felt like I was just going to my cousin’s house and just having a seven days off and just playing with them and then the reality I think struck quite hard when I reached there, they very much had like this isolated place arranged for me. Small room, bed on the floor. Cup, bowl, plate, separated. And I think I found it very strange when people started passing me food on the floor rather than on my hand and almost treat you as like you are an untouchable.

And I knew very little about the whole cultural side of the thing. Um, I hadn’t seen, my mum go through it, so I had no idea. I had my two sister before me, but when they had their period, my, my dad was not around, so I never got to experience that as well. So that seven days was like, very much like life changing.

I went home and I was like, why would you put your own daughter through all of this? You know? It just, just, I, I just wanted to be around family and everybody was away at that time. Little did I know that that was just the beginning of it. For me the biggest challenge was in school. We did not have proper toilet, proper water facilities, changing facilities.

So even now when somebody says like, oh, I want to do some work in Nepal or anything, I always say like, please, can you make sure that there’s toilet, a proper toilet facilities, but also like closer to the school and not like, I don’t know, 500 meters away from the school that girls don’t feel safe and all this kind of things.

I think that really shaped in terms of like what I do now and yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s a very strange. For me then the question with the school was, or all around like, because you didn’t have a changing facilities. Once you use your pad, if it gets soaked and basically you don’t have any other changing product to change into, so you just come home and that become a norm to pretty much every girls in my school, we stopped going to school when on period, we stopped doing sports.

So that was the normal part of having period, like you falling behind on everything in life.

Le’Nise Brothers: So this feeling of falling behind, in school and then in sports, you’ve talked a lot about the impact that falling behind in sport has had on you. And I want to touch a little bit on that later because you’ve done some amazing work in that area in your company, but in terms of falling behind in school, so missing, let’s say five days of school every menstrual month, you then went on to become an environmental scientist. So how did you bridge that gap?

Ruby Raut: I, I did my A level in Nepal and then moved here when I was 20. And it was not easy.

I started doing social sciences. In the beginning I was doing health and social care and, and I found the whole care sector was like very difficult. I did not grow up with like many grandparents living in the house, so I, it was like very hard to empathise with people living with like elderly people living here and the care and stuff.

So I just moved away straight away from there to doing environmental science and I had a bit of a break. So I graduated quite late. I was 26 by the time I graduated. I had a bit of a break in my career and when I did environmental science, I think that really changed me how I see world.

Le’Nise Brothers: Mm-hmm.

Ruby Raut: Even now David Attenborough was like my, like literally the teacher. We, we studied everything that he talked about planet Earth. And when I graduated I just came out to see like, okay, if there is one thing I would like to change is like, change in the attitude of people around environment. About the food that we eat.

Where does it come from? Are people really aware about it? The clothes that we wear? Why, why is there plastic everywhere? Um, so I started going to school talking about sustainability. I ran this project called Food Waste Ninja. I was teaching kids not to throw food away because it comes from so many miles away and so much of hardship and labor and all this kind of thing, and still 50% of the food gets wasted.

Le’Nise Brothers: Wow.

Ruby Raut: Of with that 30% that actually gets wasted in the source before they’re actually driven. So that was like such an eye-opening for me. But when I started going to school, then I was volunteering at Women’s Environmental Network at that time, and I said like, oh, I’m going to school talking about sustainability.

Is there anything else I can cover? And then they talked about periods and period product. Because they had this campaign 20 years ago around chemicals, around period and pesticides, uh, in cotton, et cetera. But we hadn’t done much on reusable, so I shared them my story of like growing up with reusable sari.

So they thought that, okay, you are the perfect person to go and talk to them. Went with like, like reusable pads and everything to shoWukase to the girls, and the first thing the girls were like, oh no, we are not going to wear this. It was like such a mindset change because you’re so used to seeing a shiny packet with a shiny product, you know, like, and then you make some, you take like some homemade product.

Le’Nise Brothers: Hmm.

Ruby Raut: Um, so I think that, that day I definitely learned a, a big lesson. If there was any sustainable product to come into the market, it had to be as good as those shiny boxes and shiny product. It has to look aesthetically good and do the job. So on the way back home from there, I got a secondhand sewing machine and put a YouTube on and learn how to sew.

And, but this time, like my mum’s, rather than my mum’s, sorry, I put my husband’s t-shirt and stitched the pad in the underwear. And I made like three pair of underwear like that for myself, wore for around six months. And I, and every time I looked forward to having my period, I genuinely do. And I still, I do, if you, if you see any customer who uses period underwear, they always go like, I’m actually looking forward to my period.

And I think that’s the attitude shift

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah.

Ruby Raut: Of like taking your period as a positive outcome rather than, oh, period sucks kind of thing. So yeah that’s the beginning of how I started Wuka.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah. I want to just take a step back a bit and talk more about the cultural side of your early days of having a period, because the taboos around menstruation really interest me.

And I actually talked about the Nepalese practice. I know I’m going to get the pronunciation of this wrong: chhaupadi?

Ruby Raut: Yes, yes, yes.

Le’Nise Brothers: In my book and how it’s now been made illegal, but it’s still, it still happens. Thinking about what you experienced, in the early days of having your period and the way that you now experience your period now in the UK, can you talk a little bit about the differences in the menstrual conversation between the UK and in Nepal.

Ruby Raut: Yeah. So I, I’ll tell you a little bit background of like why people started practicing chhaupadi as it was. So during my great-great grandmother time, they didn’t have period product, they didn’t have underwear. I mean, even my mum generation did not wear underwear growing up.

So you can see like how far we have come in terms of life. This generation shift. So whenever my great-grandmother used to have period, she used to walk around the house. Obviously without having an underwear and anything like that, there used to be blood dripping on the floor. So my grandfather and everybody in the family said like, just, just go and sit over there.

You don’t have to worry about it. And what they used to do was like, they used to tuck the sari inside the leg and then they just sit in one place. And at that time, you know, generation, they embraced it because that was the four day that they would get it as a break from all the family household chores and everything, so they embraced it.

But over the years we had underwear come out. We had like reusable pad that the parents used to make. We used to have the string that the pad used to hang around it as well. So, so a lot of like improvement happened, but that culture of like still sitting away still existed. And I think in some part of Nepal, I think people, people enjoy that because that is a breakdown from your old household chores and all this kind of thing. But I think in cities, things have moved on a lot. So girls, women are working outside jobs, you know, moving about, doing sports, all sorts of things. So things have changed quite a bit. We still have this very ingrained cultural nuances about the, the fact that you can’t go to temple, the fact that you can’t go to wedding and funeral.

That is going to be a very hard one to shift, I would say, because it’s very much when people put a fear of God in you, that is one of the hardest fear to take it out and it’s very patriarchal to society kind of thing to do. It’s changing. I say it’s changing, but it’s not in Kathmandu even if you go now.

The women won’t go to temple. The women won’t go to wedding. The women won’t put tika when they’re on the period. And when you ask them why they generally don’t have any answer. It’s because what my grandmother told or what my mother told. That’s literally what we are following. And I think what I see moving to West is like, there’s no barrier of that.

You can’t do anything on your period. And I think with the global, social media is like the main point. Like people see what things are happening in different parts of the world. I think that will change. Hopefully the new generation will see that actually it’s okay to be on your period and still go to temple and nothing’s going to happen actually.

So I think it’s, it’s about time we take that fear out. Um, one of the thing I had fear when I was growing up was if I hung my sari rag outside in the sun and somebody picks it up. And burns it with some kind of spell that I will not be a mother for my entire life.

Le’Nise Brothers: Wow.

Ruby Raut: So there’s that, that’s such a, such extreme taboo, you know, like put it in your head that then you’d never put, never hang your, sari outside.

You always make sure that it’s covered by something else. And uh, obviously that leads to a series of different kind of problem in women’s health. It’s an attitude and mind, mind change. I think with people in Nepal now, to be able to see what’s happening in around the world through social, through the global platform.

I think things will change. Still there is this still very much my mother’s nagging me in my head is still going on, you know?

Le’Nise Brothers: Mm-hmm.

Ruby Raut: So hopefully my generation then I might tell my kids like, actually, it’s okay. I have done it. Been there, nothing happens. You can carry on. Yeah.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah. It’s okay. It’s going to be okay.

It’s really interesting the effect that the words that our grandparents and, and parents, they have on us and they can just stick in our minds and they affect us all these year, years later. I want to just ask you a question around the toilet. You mentioned about having clean toilets and, and I think that’s a really interesting point when we talk about the difference between the menstrual conversation between the east and the west, where I come back to menstrual hygiene day and inevitably, every year there’s people talking about how it should just be called Menstrual Health Day. And whenever people say that, I think, well, that’s a Western perspective because there are still women and girls and you know, other people who don’t have clean water to wash their pads or their underwear, you know, there is, there’s no access to clean toilets.

And so it’s, uh, even as you mentioned earlier, places to dispose of used pads and tampons. Can you talk a little bit about that side of it? Because I feel like you obviously have a very interesting perspective on that.

Ruby Raut: And you are, you are right. Actually, like I told you about the hygiene thing, why the, why the hygiene came was like that narrative of like, you can’t actually dry your reusable pad on the sun and it needs to be hidden.

That actually creates this whole problem about hygiene issue. The, the, the rags might not dry properly. People might use that same un dried rags. But also sun kills micro bacteria and microorganism, right? Like, so it’s, it’s good to actually dry your clothes in the sun. And when that happens, then there are series of like, health issues.

They might use the same like damp pad again. There was also hygiene issue around like washing and cleaning and using soap and all this kind of thing. And it started in there like, can we have women being more taught around like the hygiene around period?

Le’Nise Brothers: Hmm.

Ruby Raut: But in the, the UK case, it’s not the case because most of us use still single use product. You use it, you put it in the bin, and then the bin is actually a quite closed lid as well. So everything is quite contained. The bin then gets into the, either into landfill or incinerator. It’s quite like nicely tracked kind of way. But when, when you are in Nepal where there is no toilet facilities, no bin facilities, you are throwing a pad hoping that somebody’s going to burn it, but sometimes it end up in the road, sometimes it ends up in the river.

You know, like, so, so I think people are teaching more of the hygiene perspective, like how to contain your product after you use, and I think there is a use of language in different use of language case in different parts of the world that you live in.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah.

Ruby Raut: And, and what you’re prioritising about as, as a part of that movement.

Are you prioritising access to period products or are you trying to say like, actually there are period products that people can use, but we just wanted to teach them more in terms of like how to manage it. And I think that’s where the language comes in, right? In the UK you can talk about health because I think.

Health is the one that we don’t talk about menstrual health in here.

Le’Nise Brothers: Mm-hmm.

Ruby Raut: We like to hide things. We gossip about things or we whisper things. And I think that’s where the, the whole health part comes is like, we gotta talk about period health, because there are hormones at play.

There are so many things at play that governs us, right. Like, so I think different places, different language. You are absolutely right.

Le’Nise Brothers: You mentioned the use of single use products in the UK. The environmental impact of menstruation is huge, and you, there’s a stat that you have on your website where over more than 200,000 tons of disposable tampons and pads are sent to landfills in the UK.

And then you add on top the impact of the chemicals and the plastics that are used to make these products. Your company is really interesting. So moving on to just talk about that side of Wuka where, you started with reusable period underwear and there’s a really big conversation that I’ve seen over the last couple of years where people are now starting to become more aware of not just the chemicals and tampons and pads, but also the chemicals that can be present in period underwear and reusable period products like that. Can you talk a little bit about that side of it?

Ruby Raut: Yeah. Period underwear has been in the world for 10 years, max, like a decade compared to like, disposable product, like a hundred years. And then I think the whole news came around like the PFAS around you know, whenever this study comes, I always say like find the source of information where they’re coming from ’cause even last year, the whole chemical in the tampons and pads and I think when you dig a little bit deeper, the amount, what is present a, does it really affect the human being? Are we getting those PFAS from other sources as well?

Like the water, the non-stick pan that we eat from, you know, like that is, it’s full coated with like PFAS and everything and forever chemicals. I think it’s really good to understand. But there’s also a significant difference between disposable and reusable, right? So every reusable underwear, whether that’s ours, with any period underwear, or even cup, every time that you use, you will replace so many disposable using in your lifetime. With our period underwear, with one underwear, you will replace 196 pads or tampons going up to the landfill. So in, in a lifetime, that is huge amount of waste going to landfill, all being burned. And I think that is like one part, you can’t get it all right.

But I think that that making that first step towards like conscious living is, I think that’s the best way. And then I always say, check the source. Make brands feel liable if they’re not right. You need to write to the brands and say like, okay, if you’ve done test, show us the test. If you have done this research, if your product does not contain this, please share us more information on it.

And something that as a transparent kind of brand, like it’s a product that I use. If I feel like the product is going to be harmful to me, why would I sell it? Right? So, and I think it’s that taking that ownership of your brand. And I’m the face of it. I’m quite visible, you know, like, you come and talk to me and I’ll listen to you.

And I think that is what we need as like a consumer from every brand. The chemical in the tampons and pads that came out. Nobody knows where that chemical came from because the producer are saying like, we didn’t add in. But then there are like other sources, like the groundwater going up to grow the cotton. did it get transferred there? You know, you make these pads in like huge machineries and stuff. Like did the machines actually transfer some of the heavy metals into the pad and stuff as well? Like, so I think it is a fear mongering kind of way. Like sometimes when it comes, it becomes like, oh my God, like am I putting so much chemical?

But I think it’s good to understand where all of these news comes from and how much, what level is safe level versus what level is like, actually, you know, really you think. Reusable are a hundred percent better than disposable period product. Make brands feel accountable. If you hear something just go and talk to them and ask them like i’ve heard this. What is your response on this? And you know, like if brands are feeling responsible and take the ownership, they will come and speak to you.

Le’Nise Brothers: And I think it’s also this new understanding of the absorbency of the vagina.

Ruby Raut: Yes.

Le’Nise Brothers: So what you put in the vagina and near the vulva, that skin is so, is so absorbent.

Ruby Raut: Yes.

Le’Nise Brothers: And that’s this understanding that we do need to take a little bit more care of, what we put near that part of our body. And also like the skin and like the white

Ruby Raut: The face and lips.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah.

Ruby Raut: Everything, right? Yeah. Like, because they’re like more closer to your mouth and ingestion and all. I always say I’ve got , a teenage niece, and I always say like, please make sure you, whatever you put in lipstick, just check what you’re putting in.

Okay. Just, just because it’s glossy and it does not, I don’t know, erase and all this kind of thing. It does not mean it’s a good thing, you know?

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah.

Ruby Raut: You need to know, because that’s the lipstick that you put, you are actually are eating that .

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah, and I think the, the shift towards reusable products is interesting.

Obviously there are still so many people still using disposables, but even though they are competitors, it must be heartening to see the likes of M&S selling period underwear, Primark selling, Uniqlo selling period underwear making these products more accessible. I remember even like, say like five, six years ago, you’d have to go online to, to get these things and it was something that was seen as quite specialist.

But now your company, so your period underwear are available in in Boots.

Ruby Raut: Yeah.

Le’Nise Brothers: Which is amazing.

Ruby Raut: It’s you know, when M&S launched, I think we saw, uh, the biggest growth that year because, and then you can see the ripple effect of like when some household brand, like one in three underwear that is worn in the British families are from M&S by the way, you did not know. It’s like, they’re like huge, right? Like, I mean incredible, especially on the underwear kind of category. So when they launched it, it was just like this halo effect. Like it, they made period underwear mainstream. It used to be like a, such a niche. Only if you are like well educated or you are tech savvy on your phone all the time, then you would get advertised from us.

But if we are offline, you wouldn’t know. And I think that is what had changed over the last seven, eight years that we’ve been running is like period is like period on the way is like a normal thing. And I think last two years we have seen this huge rise in young people using period underwear more than like 35 to 45-year-old because they are the non-habit people. Right. They haven’t had a habit of using any products. Mm-hmm. So they’re like easily persuaded to use a product that they haven’t set in habit. Whereas like if you go to 25 to 35 year olds, the first year, 10 years have been just pads and tampons, what they have used and, and why change something when it’s working for most of the people, right?

Like, but then there are like people who have got endometriosis, people who have got PCOS, who’ve got like heavy bleeding. You also have people who post baby, they don’t want to use tampons anymore, right?

Le’Nise Brothers: Mm-hmm.

Ruby Raut: Like, so I think those are the switch moments for many of our customer who come to us because either the product that they’re using currently is not working for them, or they’re looking for better comfortable solution. Period underwear is a hundred times comfortable than using pads and tampons. And so either they, there’d be like comfort for sleeping, or comfort for like long days of work, those kind of things.

So I think there are moments for people to switch, but where we are seeing the biggest shift is the young people and the mindset and then in sports and stuff.

Le’Nise Brothers: It’s so interesting. Now just speaking of sport, I am a massive football fan. Arsenal is my club, if you want to know,

Ruby Raut: They are our local club as well, actually.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah. So we how you have brands like Flo and Modi Bodi working with women’s football teams and seeing like, I think it’s Chelsea, they have Flo on the back of their shorts, and then also at Arsenal matches, you have Persil doing specific messaging around periods bloodstains, that appears on the, the sponsorship boards along around the pitch. You would’ve never seen that 10 years ago. Well firstly, I think you should speak to Arsenal since they’re your local club.

Ruby Raut: Yeah.

Le’Nise Brothers: But it just speaks to how the conversation has moved on. And just talking about what I mentioned earlier about the work that you’re now doing in sport, can you say a little bit more about that?

Ruby Raut: So, um, started like three years ago actually, and then we have been working behind the scene. We don’t actually work with big teams. We only work with grassroots teams.

Le’Nise Brothers: Okay.

Ruby Raut: What we found out was, uh, in the big teams, you have got money. Somebody can buy a period product and stuff. When a club is run by volunteers and all they want is young girls to stay active and not drop out of sports, that’s where you see the biggest fallout.

When you support a grassroots team, basically the chances of them then staying in the sports is much higher. And in general health, I’m not talking about they have to be a competitive, uh, sports player when they go further down the line, but just to be healthy and happy body kind of way, that is the way that we wanted to break that barrier is that one in two girls drop out of sports because of the period. And this does not happen at the club level. This happens at the grassroots level. At the school level. At the PE level, right? Like so that’s what we are trying to address. And I think three years ago when Watford Football Club and they wanted to do just this as like, um. A community kind of project.

They were the first one to actually put ever any period underwear period, product brand logo in the shorts. Watford girls football team. We’re talking about like two, three years back. And now it has become almost like a movement for any other brands to do it. And for us is like, that is the most important thing.

This year we have got 6,000 girls in sports. Because we supply everybody to, uh, a period underwear, but also we have a two education program that one a, um, we do virtual and then the other one is we do in person and then we do it so that I want every young girl to see period as like , very cool subject to talk about, a cool brand at the heart of it that makes absolutely everything normal.

That’s what I want them to see, what period is like in 10 years time. I learned about hormones when I was 30 years old. Mm. I don’t want anybody to reach to 30 years old to figure it out, like why, what’s happening with their body. And I think that’s, that happens quite early, young, on and we not only sponsor football, we have got like TaeKwonDo, gymnast, netball, handball, like you name it, swim. I mean the whole entire swim category is like such a big one as well for us. We do period pool parties in summer, you know, like we go to like, like leisure center and we throw like big party where girls can come and learn about periods.

We do treasure hunt inside the water just to create a safe space for Parents to talk about periods and for the girls to talk about period and, and again, see period as a cool thing. Like, eh it’s normal. You know, like we had a period pool party. Like, I mean, can you imagine like if our old generation had like growing up like this, right?

It would, it would never be a, a conversation of silence. It would be less like I had the best period pool party ever kind of like.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah. That’s amazing. I never, I’ve never heard of a period pool party before, but why not? Like how, why not? Yeah. How fun. So you’ve shared a lot today. We’ve talked about the taboos, we’ve talked about the environmental side.

What’s the one thought that you’d love to leave listeners with today?

Ruby Raut: Oh, that’s a interesting one. I want every listener to go and talk to a younger person and make them feel comfortable around period. I think that’s how we are going to change that legacy ’cause if, if you talk with anybody of my age, my parents’ age, and you say like, how was your period? Like everybody will come up with like, oh, I had this, like, I ended up having period on my birthday. Or like my only, my dad was around and he did not know what to do. And you hear this different kind of stories.

Like it was like a such a embarrassing moment or like a terrible moment kind of way. And, and what we want to change is that, that moment to be like non-drama, nothing. I knew everything about my period. I knew that this was going to happen. I was prepared. And that’s where we want to start the conversation, right?

So that when the, by the time these girls become mother, first for thing them is like, actually I’ve sorted my everything for my daughter. Like I’m going to give exactly the same experience I had. Not just with the product, but with the full education around their bodies. And I think that’s what I would say is like anybody listening to it, if you’ve got girls in your life or niece or daughter or anyone, you know, like just make the comfortable conversation around period.

Le’Nise Brothers: I love that. I’m just nodding, nodding so much here. Where can people find you?

Ruby Raut: We are in Tesco, Boots. You can also find us online. Obviously we are DTC first brand, so Wuka.co.uk. That’s Wuka.co.uk. By the way, Wuka also stands for Wake Up Kickass. So basically that’s the attitude I want to live here when I leave.

Le’Nise Brothers: Thank you so much for coming onto the show today, Ruby.

Ruby Raut: Thank you, Le’Nise.

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Period Story · December 31, 2025

Period Story Podcast, Episode 104, Eshani Kaushal: Women’s Health Isn’t A Luxury, It’s Infrastructure

What happens when you’ve been gaslit by the medical system for 10 years? This is what I explore in my conversation with Eshani Kaushal, ex corporate and tech lawyer turned entrepreneur, and the founder of Moodee — the GCC’s first period care and hormone health platform.

In this episode, Eshani shares:

Why it took her over 10 years after being diagnosed with fibroids to have them properly dealt with
What happened after she had emergency surgery to remove a 12 centimetre fibroid
How a PCOS diagnosis increased her health anxiety
How the idea for Moodee emerged and the leap of faith it took her to leave her corporate career
What it’s like to run a femtech business in the UAE
Why she thinks women’s health isn’t a luxury, but rather infrastructure that helps economies thrive
How Moodee will bring access to clean, non-toxic science backed health and menstrual products for women across all ages and stages in the Middle East
And of course, the story of her first period

Eshani says that women’s health isn’t a niche when we’re 50% of the world’s population. She says that when you fund women’s health, you enable women to do business

Thank you, Eshani!

Get in touch with Eshani:

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LISTEN IN SPOTIFY

SHOW TRANSCRIPT

Le’Nise Brothers: Thank you so much for coming onto the show today, Eshani. I’m really excited to speak to you to dive into a conversation about stigma and taboo. Let’s first start by getting into the question that I ask all of my guests, which is tell us the story of your very first period.

Eshani Kaushal: So my first period, I’ll never forget it because it was a very embarrassing moment for me. So I went to a school where you wore uniforms and on our sports days, our uniform was white and I had this white skirt on. White shirt, a blue blazer.

And I started my period and I started my periods really young. I was nine years old, so I hadn’t even, you know, attended the reproduction class where they introduced you to periods. And I guess my mom thought I was too young for her to have this conversation with me. It just hit me out of nowhere and I thought I was going to die.

And I remember sitting, it was lunch break, I was having lunch with my friends and I got up to go to the loo and my friend was like, oh my God. Your skirt is covered in blood. Are you bleeding? She thought I was bleeding from my leg, so we went to the bathroom.

I check and I’m bleed, like bleeding. It’s a lot of blood. And of course, as a child who’s, who has no idea, no clue about what’s happening, I really thought I was going to die. So they, my friends ran out, got a teacher, and the teacher came in and explained to me what a period is. And that what’s happening to me, you’re not going to die.

What’s happening to is very normal. It’s just that it’s very early for you for some reason, and introduced me to the pad and told me how to, place it. Gave a new pair of underwear, found somebody’s old skirt, and made me change. So it was a really traumatic experience and I was one of the first kids in my class who started her period.

And so I felt really out of place, really isolated. So my first period was actually not a very nice experience.

Le’Nise Brothers: Wow. At nine years old and not really having had that conversation. And so I wonder when you got home, what was the conversation like with your parents?

Eshani Kaushal: So the conversation. So I’m originally Indian and you know, in our culture as well, periods are kind of whispered about and you don’t really talk about these things with your dad or your brother or your uncle and stuff.

So for me, naturally I felt a lot more comfortable talking about it with my mom and I told her, oh I’ve been told that I have a period and that means that I’m going to bleed every month. And my teacher had called my mom beforehand. So my mom knew. I was using the public transport at the time, so I had like a bus that would collect because my mom was working full time and she couldn’t come to pick me up.

But so when I went home, my mom was ready. Like she had a book ready for me. She had the pads and you know, my mom was like really into clean period care even at that time. Um, so she had these cotton pads that she had made for herself that she used to use, so she introduced me to those and that I would bleed every, every month is very normal. She kind of like really normalised that because I was very anxious, as you can imagine. And then, you know, I, I voiced to her that I’m the only one and I had grown breasts and I already felt so out of place at that age. And then now I have a period as well and these really drastic changes were happening to my body at a really fast pace. And so I think my mom kind of like calmed me down and normalised that whole thing. And she told me, I, I can’t tell you why you started your periods this early. It’s just individuals, you know. Um, there’s no formula. Some start late, some start early, but that it’s completely normal.

So that gave me a lot of comfort.

Le’Nise Brothers: And what about when you went back to school? Your friends had, sounds like they were really supportive, getting the teacher, telling you what was going on. And so at nine you said you were the first one of your friends to have started your period. So what happened when you went back to school?

Eshani Kaushal: I can’t recall if I was bullied about it? I don’t think so. I think if I was, I probably would have remembered. I think nobody really cared and, you know, very rapidly then everyone started to get their periods, um, in my age group and then, you know, by the time I went to the next class, the next year, it was kind of a very normal conversation. We started learning about it in school. I do think that what was traumatising for me is because I didn’t know how to use the pad really well, so I would have leaks and, you know, I would find myself in these situations, but I think the teachers, men and women, um, were very, very supportive when something like that happened.

Didn’t happen a lot. It did happen twice after I had started my period because I was so new to it. I did not position the pad really well when to change it. And so TMI, but that’s the reality of a lot of girls, right? So yeah, I, I think there was a lot of support and the embarrassment I felt was in my head, uh, but not because someone made me feel embarrassed about it.

Le’Nise Brothers: Getting a period at nine, which is quite young. And then your friends started to get their periods and you kind of all went through this together, really supportive environment at school. What was your period like throughout the rest of your teenage years?

Eshani Kaushal: Really painful.

I think like I’ve always had really bad cramps and I’ve never really quite figured out why. You know, I speak to some women and it’s the same thing, right? Some women have periods that are not as aggressive and others have really, you know, debilitating pain and really painful first couple of days, right? So I think I fall into the latter category where I’ve always had really bad cramps. When I got a little bit older, I got diagnosed with fibroids at 24. And then I thought maybe it was because I had some sort of hormonal imbalance. That’s why my period have been so, heavy and so painful.

And after my diagnosis, it just kind of got worse and worse and worse. So I mean, we could touch on this later. But I actually had surgery to remove one of the fibroids last year, and my periods have been so much less, uh, less aggressive since I’ve had that surgery. So maybe that was the issue that was causing my periods to be so painful.

But yeah, to answer your questions, it’s, it’s not been nice.

Le’Nise Brothers: What’s really interesting is how you were able to get a fibroid diagnosis so early on. Because what I see in my practice is there are two things. It’s still a lack of understanding of fibroids even though they’re one of the most common gynaecological conditions, but also once the understanding is there, getting a diagnosis and then having effective treatment. So you kind of went through all of that really quickly. Can you talk to us a little bit about the diagnosis pathway that you went on?

Eshani Kaushal: Yeah, it was not quick at all. So actually even how I got diagnosed, just because I felt really strongly that there is something wrong, and at 24 was the first time that I went to the doctor by myself.

You know, it was usually like with my mom when I was younger, when you’re sick. And um, I’d never gone to the gynaecologist before I was 24 either. Which was stupid of me, I should have, but I, I was always so afraid. Right. I just wanted to avoid going to the doctor, I didn’t like the energy of the hospital.

But I went because I just felt like something is not right. And at that time I was hearing a lot of girls talking about, oh, my sister had a, an ovarian cyst and it ruptured. And I think like I have a lot of health anxiety or had a lot of health anxiety at that time and I had, you know, just moved to Dubai and my insurance was practically covering for everything.

And I was like, okay, let me make use of this and let me go and see a doctor. And they did an ultrasound and the doctor was like, there’s nothing wrong with you. It’s totally fine. But the doctor that said this to me was different to the person doing the ultrasound. So I actually asked the person doing the ultrasound. It was a nurse or I guess the ultrasound person at the time. They said, you know what? It’s benign so I don’t want you to worry about it, but you do have a fibroid, but it’s one centimetre. I called my doctor. She was like, well, you know when we find fibroids that are one centimetre, two up to two centimetres, we don’t tell our patients because they just get anxiety for no reason.

It’s nothing like you have no symptoms. Yes, it’s there, but it’s not doing anything. Your periods are normal. So I didn’t think that you needed to know, and I thought that was so outrageous because I do, it’s my body and you find anything, whether benign or not, I have the right to know and you have the right to tell me.

And I think the attitude was so blasé and that continued for many, many, many years. So I was 24, then I was 32 last year, which is when I had my surgery. So I suffered for almost 10 years because my fibroid went from one centimetre to 3 centimetres to five to seven, and when they actually operated and went in, it was 12 centimetres and my surgery was an emergency surgery.

So I have been gaslit by the medical system for 10 years because my doctors kept telling me it’s normal. My doctor put me on the pill as a treatment option for the fibroid, knowing full well I was pumping estrogen into my body and fibroids thrive on estrogen, which meant that my fibroid grew in at a very, you know, fast pace until I was, so, I worked in the startup environment before starting Moodee, my company right now. I was raising a pre-seed run, really intensive face, and they called me in and said, you need to take this fibroid out because it’s now turning into something that’s no longer benign. And when I called my, when I remember a second opinion, my doctor said that she has no clue why I’m taking this pill.

Like I should have not been put on this pill. And this pill is the reason why I’m in this situation today. So when I called my doctor that put me on the pill and asked her about it, her response was, you know, it worked for some people, it just doesn’t work for others. And she took such a massive gamble with my life and I think the idea of Moodee came about. But yeah, so it was not an easy journey. It was actually very difficult 10 years.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah. Firstly, I have to apologise for saying that you went through this quite quickly because that’s what the way it sounded initially, but it’s clear that it wasn’t. And that growth going from one centimetre to 12 centimetre.

Having that synthetic estrogen, which as you say, fibroids, that’s their fuel source, so, wow. And talk to us about having the surgery and now what you’ve done since then to manage the estrogen in the body and manage your body so that we know that fibroids can come back, but what kind of treatment plan do you have in place now?

Eshani Kaushal: So, you know, the challenge in women’s health is that my doctor or any doctor cannot tell me why I have estrogen dominance. They also cannot tell me what I can do I balance my hormones and to lower my estrogen levels. I get a lot of generic information from my doctors. The same information that I can get from a simple Google search.

So it’s some, you know, women, we rely on a lot of trial and error, which is so dangerous because you may try something that actually ends up making your symptoms or your situation worse, right? And that’s the reality of women’s health globally. And so I can’t tell you that I have a treatment option.

I’m just trying to figure it out. I’m trying to figure out how can I, you know, all of the natural, homeopathic or nonprescription treatment options that are available I’m trying all of them, uh, and hoping that my fibroid doesn’t come back. I do regular checks, but the reality is, after I did my surgery, my doctor told me chances are, and very high likelihood that your fibroid’s going to come back.

It’s just how women’s health operates. Endo comes back, PCOS comes back, fibroids come back. So there’s no winning right now in women’s health, so I’m just trying to figure it out. I’m trying to eat clean. I try to do an anti-inflammatory diet, even though that’s not a very sustainable lifestyle. But I try to do it as much as I can.

I do have my moments where I slip off and, you know, will devour a whole slice of cake knowing that that’s probably going to create some sort of hormonal imbalance. But it’s because we don’t have that medical support. I’m kind of just left alone to figure it out by myself.

Le’Nise Brothers: Just to kind of give you some reassurance because this is my area of specialty, so there is a lot that you can do, and having a slice of cake isn’t going to totally throw everything off.

You know, it’s really important to find,

Eshani Kaushal: love to hear that.

Le’Nise Brothers: Yeah. Joy and pleasure through food. But yeah, there is a lot that you can do and a lot of the ways that you can support your body, when you have fibroids. But what I’m really interested in, in talking about now is PCOS. You had this large fibroid, but I also read you talking about your PCOS journey.

So can you just say a little bit more about that?

Eshani Kaushal: So I got diagnosed with PCOS on my first ultrasound after my surgery. And the approach or the attitude to words that diagnosis was also very much not serious. So I remember lying down and the doctor doing the ultrasound and she’s like, Hmm, looks like you have PCOS.

And frankly speaking it’s not something that I’m proud of. I had heard of PCOS, but I really didn’t know what it meant. You know, I knew that it’s a condition that maybe means that you have some cysts in your ovaries, but, ’cause I didn’t really have it, it’s not something I was dealing with so many other issues, you know, my own hormone health, so it’s not something that I really knew about.

So I asked my doctor and I got really nervous because remember I just had a surgery and I was thinking, oh my gosh, do I have to go and have another surgery? It was quite depressing to hear that at that moment. And then I asked her like, what is PCOS? And the feedback was PCOS can mean a lot of different things.

We don’t know what type of PCOS you have right now, but all I see is that you have on one of your ovaries, follicles, are PCOS pattern, and that was it. That’s the information I got. I asked a couple of questions. I also didn’t know what type of questions to ask about, and I went and did my own research, spoke to a couple of people, got referred to a PCOS expert.

Went and saw her, and I think that’s when I really realised how diverse PCOS is and how diverse the symptoms of PCOS are. And just because you have a PCOS pattern in your ovaries doesn’t mean that you diagnosed with PCOS. So right now I don’t have any symptoms of PCOS, but every time I go to my doctor, she’ll tell me, yep that’s a polycystic ovary right there, but my periods are normal. I don’t really have hirsutism believe it’s called. I don’t have acne. I don’t have unexplainable weight gain. And so that means that I don’t have the formal diagnosis. Uh, but at the same time, it’s something that’s always at the back of my mind that am I going to develop these symptoms and is it going to become a full fledged diagnosis?

Le’Nise Brothers: What you’re saying is so fascinating because, you know, we, we’ve just come out of PCOS Awareness month in September, and one of the things that I see a lot of, and I do a lot of myself, is education around PCOS because there’s polycystic ovarian syndrome is a condition where the name is it, it needs a rebrand because you know, we have a lot of people, and I’ve seen this in my own practice, where they’ve been diagnosed with PCOS. And then five years later, they actually find that they don’t have PCOS. They’ve seen polycystic ovaries on an ultrasound, and that’s been the diagnosis.

And then once you go deeper with a lot of different diagnosis tests, including blood tests, urine tests, you as you say, you know, you don’t have hirsutism which is the hair on the face, the jaw, the chest, the abdomen. But there are other symptoms of PCOS. And once you go deeper into this blood and urine testing, you find the, like the patterns, or you don’t find the patterns and you say, well, actually, you shouldn’t have been diagnosed with that. So this actually makes me sad that you have this in the back of your head, but then you know your body and you’re seeing well, my periods are regular I don’t have the other things that you typically hear about when it comes to PCOS, so why are you telling me this?

So I like would really encourage you, just kind of putting my practitioner hat on to get a second opinion if you haven’t already because you know, you’ve talked before about health anxiety and you know, anxiety around going to the doctor and then I’ll actually layering this feeling of, what’s going on here?

And having this in the back of your head, that’s not a great, that’s not where you want to be. You know, we talk about stigmas and taboos and, you know, fears around women’s health. And to know that your doctor could be contributing to this isn’t, isn’t great. So just my, that’s my 2 cents there. Apologies if I’ve overstepped in any way.

Eshani Kaushal: Absolutely not. No, I appreciate it so much. And you’re absolutely right. It’s just like, I feel like it’s just another thing on my plate in terms of my hormonal health that I have to constantly be worried about. And every time I go for a simple pap, I always feel the need to ask them. Just check if I, my PCOS is severe, or like, can you double check if I have PCOS?

Like this is what I’m always asking any new doctor that I try, right? Because I just, I’m so anxious that I’m, I’ve been misdiagnosed because remember, this has been my experience with the medical space for the past nine years. Misdiagnosis, or kind of just like the unseriousness surrounding it.

So you are absolutely right. I mean, and I have, you know, also finding that right type of doctor that will tell you the right type of information, you know, as opposed to what they’re used to telling their patients. I don’t know if that makes sense, but I feel like the doctor I have now, for example, is a lot more informative.

Like she’s the one who told, taught me what PCOS means and how different it could look like. And every time I go to her, she wants to, you know, reassure me, but my fibroid doctor is somebody else. So, so I have these differing opinions, and that in itself can be confusing.

Le’Nise Brothers: You have this kind of, if you think about, you know, when you have a business, you have an origin story. Most people, they have an origin story that drives their kind of passion for the business that they, they set up. So you were a corporate lawyer, a corporate and tech lawyer until March this year.

Have I got those timings right till earlier this year.

Eshani Kaushal: You’re you’re right. Yeah. Yeah,

Le’Nise Brothers: yeah. And now you are an entrepreneur. Can you talk to us about this transition? So going from having this secure role where you’re working for someone else to just jumping in to becoming an entrepreneur.

And what I’m also really interested in is the unique challenges of being a female entrepreneur in the Middle East, in the GCC. Can you say a little bit more about that?

Eshani Kaushal: Yes. It was a leap of faith and a very high risk for me because I think I worked for so many years in a very specific, all of my experience, my connection, my knowhow expertise was from that industry.

But I think, you know, like lived experience is very important when I think you, you feel really passionately about something, especially in women’s health because there’s such few fem techs or women’s health companies in the Middle East or even globally, I think. Right? So I think lived experience goes long way.

Statistics are very important because they’re so staggering. Um, so it shows you that there is a massive gap and I think like there is a global gap in women’s health, but I feel like it gets bigger as you come down to the Middle East, Asia, Africa. And there’s several different factors about that.

And one of them is because how stigmatised women’s health is and how it’s a taboo to talk about certain conditions that affect us or talk about our reproductive health very openly. So I think there’s that, and that’s a fact. But I will say that being a Femtech founder in the Middle East has never hindered my existence, or has never affected, or the reception that Moodee is getting. I think that the more taboo the topic is in women’s health, the more positive response I have seen. And I think the reason for that is because the market is so progressive when it comes to technology and you know, I think that there’s several different government initiatives that want to support women led businesses in the region because the population of female entrepreneurs specifically in the UAE, is actually quite high.

Right. And so there’s a lot of support and backing on female led innovation in the region. Um, and I think this is one of the things that I would to about the, the perception of the Middle East in the rest of the world because I have found so much support from the regulators, so much support from investors that are male, that are from the Middle Eastern market because they see the gap in the market, but they also see how massive commercial opportunity it is to build a women’s health company because, you know, globally it’s about to be a $1 trillion market, right?

So the female consumer is the ultimate decision maker. And many households, up to 80% of the households, they make the health and wellness decisions. Right. And so I think they see that opportunity and they see that there is a gap and they see that the female consumer is becoming more aware and is demanding more even in the Middle East, right?

Challenges that I faced are to do with kind of just like growing a business, right, that every entrepreneur faces, but it hasn’t been necessarily because I’m a female and I’m developing. Not at all.

Le’Nise Brothers: Okay. That’s interesting. So this kind of leads onto the next question around stigma and taboo, specifically around women’s health.

So talking about periods, talking about menopause, talking about fertility, because you say the market is huge and I absolutely agree we see opportunities in so many parts of women’s health. But how do you then connect that with, I do see this with male VCs. They can be hesitant in investing in fem tech.

You know, I spoke to a female founder last year and she was telling me that when she walked in the room, it was all male VCs and she walked in, she was pregnant. And with her business partners, she could just see they immediately took her less seriously. Then she started talking about fertility and her business is all around fertility and there was this scoffing and you know, they had to work extra hard to even get them to take them seriously.

And so I wonder about that, especially when you layer in the potential stigmas around talking about periods in Islam. Can you just say a little bit more about that?

Eshani Kaushal: Yeah. So I think what her experience was definitely something that is quite normal for women to experience.

Like in my experience, I’m also raising pre-seed. We’re a super young company. We’re raising money as we speak, and I’ve only managed to speak with one female VC and I’ve probably had a hundred conversations. Right. And yeah, I do feel, I do find that if your business is just femtech, just female health, there is an aversion, and I don’t know why. I can’t tell you why, because I see the opportunity and there are some VCs that will see it immediately, but they, because they’ve backed femtech before and they’ve probably had a positive experience, but for majority of the VCs, I see that they’re not keen and I haven’t been able to figure out why.

But you know, when it comes to like taboo, stigma and all of that. I think it’s not a religious factor, so it’s not something that is an Islamic thing. I think it’s a traditional cultural thing that you’ll find in Africa, in Asia, like I originally, I’m Indian, but I grew up in Kenya, right, in Nairobi, and so it’s the taboo there as well. Taboo, you know, it’s a taboo in, in majority of Asia as well. It’s a taboo in, I would even say the global north in, you know, certain topics make people uncomfortable when it comes to women’s health, even in the “developed” world, right?

Le’Nise Brothers: Mm-hmm.

Eshani Kaushal: So I think that stigma exists globally, but like I was saying, there’s a lot of cultural and traditional factors when you come down to the Middle East and Africa and Asia that come into play which is wild because these regions were so progressive. Back in the day when I talk about Asia in Hinduism, how a female is treated right and her positioning in society in Islam, how respected a woman is, and you know that the concept of periods, it was never considered dirty. It was actually what made a woman, although that’s not the right way to look at it anymore, but you know, back in the day there was not much taboo and stigma around it.

Right. And women were powerful like we go to Egypt and you see how women were and respected, right? So it’s completely shifted. So, you know, when I’m trying to raise capital and I’m trying to build a company that has to not only navigate tough conversations about women’s health, but at the same time try to make it seem like a serious business. It’s not easy.

It’s not an easy journey because my investors know that I’m not building a company in Europe, for example, where there’s so many others that have paved the way for these top conversations. I’m the first one doing it and paving the way for others that are going to come after me. So I think that is a very difficult journey, and I think in my fundraising round, one of the biggest challenges is to kind of show them that access is built by that first person, that first company that comes in and says, I’m going to hard work and Moodee is that player that’s going to do the hard work and build an ecosystem where other femtech and women’s health can enter the market and provide a holistic health solution for women in the region. That’s where we are.

Le’Nise Brothers: Fantastic. I think what you’re doing is so admirable and so needed, and just to kind of build on what we’ve been talking about, you, I saw something that you wrote on LinkedIn where you wrote that women’s health isn’t a luxury, it’s infrastructure. I’ve never heard it put like that before, and I absolutely love that.

Can you say more about what you mean by that?

Eshani Kaushal: I think it’s very simple and I’m so surprised that more people don’t talk about it because, I mean, I read an article the other day that said, uh, the US alone they did some research and I’m going to send you the article after our call to quote it. The US alone lost $1.8 billion in productivity in the last two years because of absentism of women because of hormonal health issues, specifically menopause. Right. And we lose billions of dollars because we haven’t given women’s health the grace to figure out or to fund it enough to figure out why so many of us suffer in silence. Whether it’s having all of these diagnosis like Endo and PCOS and fibroids and ovarian cysts, like your doctor cannot tell you why you get endo, why you get PCOS, why your periods are painful, and when they finally give you a diagnosis, which in itself is so brutal because endo, one of the sure ways of diagnosing endo is through surgery. Right. And even then they’ll cut you open and be like, oops, that wasn’t endo. Right? And when they finally do diagnose you, they can’t tell you how to treat it.

Le’Nise Brothers: Hmm.

Eshani Kaushal: Right? They slap on the pill for every single diagnosis you have painful periods? Take the pill. You have PCOS? Take the pill. You have endo? Take the pill. Right. That’s the only prescription option that’s available to women and has been for decades now, right? So I think people fail to realise that we make up 50% of the world’s population. We make up a huge chunk of the workforce, right? We bring in billions and trillions of dollars into the economy.

And so I think that they have to view it as lost productivity and that women’s health is building infrastructure. When you fund women’s health, you enable women to do business. You enable women to be productive. You enable your economies to thrive. You enable families to grow. You enable children to have the right type of tools and education.

And that’s why I said that women’s health is infrastructure. It’s not a niche. That’s another thing that’s being used in women’s health is like, oh, when I’m raising money, it’s a niche. It’s not a niche, we’re 50% of the world’s population. How can you call it a niche? It just doesn’t make sense.

Le’Nise Brothers: That makes me laugh because when I was writing my book and it was being talked about and potentially to be sold to different publishers, one of the pieces of feedback I got was, oh, we’re not sure about this. Women’s health is a niche. Periods are a niche. And it made me laugh because I just thought we’re talking about 50% of the population and it’s something that that 50% has for potentially 40 years of their lives. How could this be? How can this ever be considered a niche? It’s just, wow. It just blows my mind, but saying that it’s a niche just shows this importance of education. It’s importance of helping others understand what they don’t understand.

And this actually leads to a question that, so looking on the Moodee website, so actually just take a step back. Tell us about Moodee. What is Moodee, what are you trying to do with Moodee? So just tell us a little bit more about your company.

Eshani Kaushal: Sure. So Moodee is a femtech based out of the UAE. We’re positioning ourselves as a global femtech for our immediate market is the Middle East because it’s so heavily underserved when it comes to women’s health.

And the idea for Moodee is to create access. I think there’s a bigger problem in women’s health, which is there’s no data, right? And the data that’s there is not really trustable. The data is maybe scattered all over the place because only 1% of the global R&D in healthcare goes towards women’s health. That’s why we were talking about earlier, that’s why your doctor can’t figure out why you get endo.

That’s why they can’t figure out how you’re going to treat it. And they can’t figure out why it comes back because they don’t know, they’re clueless. It’s not funded. So that’s the bigger issue. Right. So what’s the more immediately addressable issue, which is symptom care because all of us have symptoms, right? Being a woman is just navigating different kinds of symptoms at different stage of your life.

So if you’re starting your first period, you have a very unique set of symptoms. When you get one of these diagnosis of PCOS or endo et cetera, you’re navigating those. Pregnancy is another ball game, right? And then you enter menopause and don’t even get me started on that, right? Um, it’s so heavily understudied and underfunded.

So the idea for Moodee was to create access in the region because right now there is nothing. You have your same culprits that are, you know, that have been selling toxic period products that are laced with plastic and fragrance and all kinds of ingredients that we know are known endocrine disruptors that we give to our young daughters when they start their first periods and we continue to use them ourselves because we don’t have a choice, right?

We don’t have an option. You go to the supermarket, that’s all that’s available. You go to the pharmacy, that’s all they’re selling. So I think the idea of Moodee was to bring access to clean, non-toxic science backed products that are evidence-based, that have actually, there’s evidence that these have supported women with certain conditions and have offered symptom relief.

So to bring them into the country and work with some really cool regional and local players that are starting to c reate such products for women, right? And create a platform for them to host these products and find their customer base, make the consumer aware that you, you can have access to these really good products that support your hormones as opposed to disrupting them.

So that was the intention. But I think when we started, so before I started Moodee, we did six months of market research. Um. We reached out to 15 plus women in the region and we asked them what are the gaps personally for them in their, uh, health journey, right? What is missing in the region? And, you know, I don’t know if, you know, the UAE majority of the population is the expat population, at least in Dubai.

So you have people that have actually been exposed to clean period care and clean symptom relief in other markets. They can’t find them here. And so up to 90% of the population is the expat population in the, in the country. Right. I think like there was a lot of, when we did the survey, there was a lot of feedback of, Hey, I’ve used this in other markets, we just don’t have any here. So when I travel I have to stock up. And the idea was just to kind of just take that out of the picture. And so the one element that came out is a personalised solution that is, or products that are personalised to their lifestage. So, you know, if you’re a woman who’s navigating PCOS but is trying to have a baby, trying to conceive.

We have a recommendations engine on our platform, which will ask you some guided questions and then it’ll know that, okay, since you have PCOS, you’re trying to conceive, you’re having, you’re probably going to have somewhat of a difficult journey, so it’ll recommend product specific to you. Essentially right now, Moodee’s a curated marketplace, but like we were talking about the stigma and the taboo that exists in the region as well.

So one of the main missions of Moodee’s to de-stigmatise women’s health conversations through several different partnerships. We just partnered with, um, with schools to do series of conversations with year 11 and year 12 girls are navigating their first period. We’re talking to the local communities about STDs post marriage. Because in Islam, marriage is very sacred and a sexual relationship can only happen post-marriage. But we’re finding, this is through our, the data we’ve extracted from, uh, doctors and, uh, women’s health experts and gynecologists, that there is a lot of cases of women having their first sexual experience post, uh, marriage and getting exposed to some life threatening STDs, right?

So we’re taking doctors and speaking to these women about how to have protective sex after marriage and how to demand testing before you have unprotected sex. And what are STDs? Some of them don’t even know about that, right? So this is how we destigmatise. So Moodee becomes this knowledge hub, not just for women, but also men, because the idea is that men a lot of the times want to help and they want to support the daughters, sisters, partners, friends in their lives, but don’t really have the right type of tools. So the idea is that Moodee will become that knowledge hub for men to learn about, my sister just got diagnosed with PCOS, what does it mean?

Or My wife just got diagnosed with endometriosis. What does it mean and how I can help? Right? So I think knowledge and um, access to that knowledge is also a really important part of what we’re building.

Le’Nise Brothers: It sounds fascinating and it sounds so well needed. I think that what you’ve said there about tapping into the expat market where, you know, they live in the UK and they have access to the abundance of clean products that we have here and not being able to find the same in Dubai or you know, wherever they live in the UAE.

What about the section on the Moodee website? It’s called He Cares. And you touched on this a little bit, but you, the description is for every man who’s wanted to help but never knew quite how. Tell me more about why you thought that was important to include as a section on the website.

Eshani Kaushal: So I think it’s extremely important because when you also look at women’s health in general, the decision makers in women’s health sadly are not women.

The people that have the purse strings in their hands are also not women. And in fact, when we look at trials for medicine, that is created for women, women only make up 22%of these trials and these medication is tested on male DNA and on animal cells, right? So this is the reality we’re living in. And a really sad reality.

You know what we wanted to do differently with Moodee is we wanted to include the male gender in the women’s health conversation because they’re really central to a lot of our lives, whether it’s in the form of our dads, our close friends, our brothers, our partners, right? And I feel like women’s health is not a battle only for women to fight because we have a very important space in the men’s life as well. They value us and they want to help, and I think they should be given the option to go beyond just, you know, buying you chocolates or, you know, giving you, I guess, comfort during that time. I think they have to have the right type of tools, the right type of knowledge to really understand all the noise that we’re making, right? What does it mean when I tell you I’m dying on the first two days of my period? Why? Why? Right? And they can go to Moodee and find access to these blogs that are written by women’s health experts and gynecologists that are explaining to them, and some of them are actually men.

Explaining to men, this is why her, you know, her uterine lining sheds, or this is what a PCOS diagnosis means, or this is how difficult it’s for a woman to get pregnant. Uh, because, you know, there is a lot of cultural aspects when it come that come to play when, when we talk about fertility in the region, right?

A woman not being able to carry a child could have, uh, negative reaction. Right. So we want to educate the man. He Cares very specifically is actually a period kit that we created that’s targeted towards the man to buy for her, right? So I think that’s kind of like when you’re given the option to kind of buy her or introduce her for the first time to a period panty or a period cup or you know, period patches that, you know, make sure that she’s no longer using of the toxic stuff.

She’s no longer, you know, drugging herself up with painkillers on the first two days of her period, and she can actually use natural, uh, treatment options that are not going to make her symptoms worse. So that’s what He Cares is, I mean, at least right now, the idea is that He Cares, will expand into an entire section towards the man to give them knowledge, to give them access, the option to speak to experts and learn about women’s health.

Le’Nise Brothers: That’s so needed. And again, it’s another way of reducing stigma where because education is so key. Once you have the knowledge, you can do better and you can help anyone in your life who has a period who is suffering just by having that knowledge and then that potentially extends the depth of the empathy that they can extend.

So tell us about what’s coming up next, for you, for the website, for your company. It’s still very new. There’s a lot going on in the background, but what’s your kind of vision for the next year?

Eshani Kaushal: So there’s a lot that’s going to change. Our entire website is going to be redone.

We’ve already pulled down our recommendations engine. That’s going to be a lot more advanced. The AI is going to be a lot more advanced in getting to know you at a deeper level and. Building that very intimate connection with you as a consumer and learn about you so that the recommendations can get a lot more advanced.

So from a technical standpoint, there’s a lot that’s going to change. We’re onboarding so many different partners. I think the idea first is to remain curated, which mean that we have our own due diligence process. If you meet that certain criteria, you get onboarded and, and it’s made accessible to the Middle Eastern market.

So we have so many really cool brands and concepts in women’s health that are not available in the region that will be onboarding very, very soon. And I think the next phase for us is to really expand our operations and, you know, target the Middle East as a whole because it’s a gap that exists Middle East wide.

And this is our market, at least in the beginning. So we want to tap into Qatar, Bahrain, and make Moodee that trusted women’s Health partner and you know, our focus is D2C, so really building that trust through community, and that’s what we’re doing. So we’re going to have so many more community events, we’re already doing them right.

So many more conversations and try to destigmatise women’s health from children navigating their first period to women navigating, um, menopause, in C-suite, executive level positions. Right. So really have those conversations and have community events. Build our community and build trust. I always say we’re building trust first brand later.

Because on our, we looked at our case studies on successful health startups. That’s the, the recipe that has worked well. And I think especially for women’s health because we talking about such topics that are so, that trust is very, very important. So in the next one year, I think our focus is building trust through community, through access and making Moodee that trusted health partner for every woman in the Middle East.

Le’Nise Brothers: Fantastic. I can’t wait to see what comes next for you. What’s the one thought that you’d like to leave listeners with?

Eshani Kaushal: I think a lot of the times, even women we tend to think that our reproductive health is not part of health or that it’s not part of healthcare.

And I think one of the battles we’re fighting even whether it’s raising our round or whether it’s working with the regulator, is making them see that Reproductive health is healthcare and that it’s not an arm to healthcare. Right. Uh, if a woman’s reproductive health is not okay, she’s not okay. She’s a sick person.

And I think even us as women sometimes tend to forget that, uh, our heart is okay, our cholesterol levels are good, our kidneys are functioning well, but the only problem I’m having is I got a PCOS diagnosis. You know? And the reality is there’s a reason you got that. Mm-hmm. You just have to figure out why.

I think we, we have a tendency to think that women’s healthcare is not healthcare. And I think that, I hope Moodee can change that through these conversations, and I hope that through all of these other cool femtech and innovative women’s health companies that are coming up, that we can change that mindset.

That there’ll be a real shift in that mindset and that women’s health finally gets the respect that it deserves. Because right now women are being treated as the lesser gender. Actually posted something about this on LinkedIn. If you ever had a doubt that women are treated as the less gender, look at the statistics.

Le’Nise Brothers: Where can people find you?

Eshani Kaushal: So they can find us on our website. Of course they can find us on LinkedIn. We’re called Moodee com. LinkedIn. We’re called Moodee Co on Instagram and Moodee Mena on TikTok. We’re active on all of these platforms, um, I think for a lot more of the educational content. Follow us on our website and our LinkedIn, and for all the fun content, follow us on Instagram and TikTok.

Le’Nise Brothers: Great. So all the links will be in the show notes and the links to the articles that you mentioned as well. Thank you so much for coming onto the show today. It’s been so fascinating to speak to you, to hear your story. So thank you so much again.

Eshani Kaushal: Likewise. It’s been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.

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Period Story · December 24, 2025

Period Story Podcast, Episode 103, Nora Cavani: Your Gut Health Affects Your Health and Wellbeing

I really admire the tenacity of my guest of today’s episode of Period Story. I speak with Nora Cavani, a molecular biologist with a background in pharmaceutical engineering, an award winning gut health expert and founder and CEO of Alba Health, a company on a mission to prevent chronic diseases through gut health science.

In this episode, Nora shares:

What happened to destroy the credibility of the PCOS diagnosis she received when she was a teenager
How coming off the pill led to the biggest transformation of her life
How getting told that she would need to use cortisone for the rest off her life to manage severe eczema led her to the extensive research that resulted in her becoming an expert in the gut microbiome
How an anti-inflammatory diet and a focus on removing any gut microbiome disrupters transformed her gut health, virtually eliminated her eczema and led to regular periods
The terrifying moment that led to an endometriosis diagnosis and what she thought when a doctor told her that nutrition had no impact on endometriosis
What inflammation actually is and the three types
Why our gut microbiome is so important, even as babies
What led her to start Alba Health, a gut microbiome testing company for children from 0 – 18 years old
And of course, the story of her first period

Nora says our gut microbiome is very important at any age, but even more important when you’re a child because this is when microbes seed the gut and form the gut microbiome. She says that what happens in these first years is critical because these microbes help train the immune system, form and educate our metabolism and they affect our brain and brain development.

Thank you, Nora!

Get in touch with Nora:

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SHOW TRANSCRIPT

Le’Nise Brothers: Thank you so much, Nora, for coming on the show today. I’m really excited to speak to you, to talk about your business, Alba Health. But first I want to take you all the way back and ask you the question that I start each episode off with, which is tell us the story of your first period.

Nora Cavani: Thanks so much for having me, Le’Nise. I’m really excited for this conversation. So my first period, I had my first period when I was 13 years old and I think it was a surprise. I didn’t really know what to expect and what it was about to be honest. I’m from a small town in Italy and I would say back then it wasn’t something you would talk a lot about, not as much as today. So I simply noticed that I was bleeding and I told my mom and she told me, oh, okay, so now it happened and she gave me a pad and she told me, okay, now this is going to happen every month. And so that was very brief and very concise, and that was it. And um, that’s how I was introduced to it.

And over the years, it actually for me didn’t really happen every month. I had very irregular periods at the beginning. For many years I even had, um, delayed periods, even almost a year. So it was something that was not super regular but back then I didn’t really talk much about it or there wasn’t a lot of conversation about it.

So it was a bit, of a taboo back then.

Le’Nise Brothers: Even with your friends, so at age 13, that’s kind of when a lot of girls, they start to menstruate. And after you had your first period, did you go and talk about it with your friends? Did the taboo extend to conversation among the friendship group?

Nora Cavani: I think we might have talked a little bit about it, but not that much I have to say.

Le’Nise Brothers: Right. Okay. So you’ve said you had irregular periods, and what was the point where you realised, oh, this is supposed to come every kind of 30 odd days or so and it’s not, and then from there, what did you then do about it?

Nora Cavani: I think initially I didn’t really talk about it with anybody. I just kept it for myself for some time. And I thought, okay, let’s see what happens. And then, so I didn’t do anything about it for a few years because I didn’t really know who to talk about it and what to do. And then over the years I started to understand, okay, this is not very normal because sometimes I didn’t have it for like six months.

And then I believe I went to a gynaecologist and I was told that I have PCOS and I was told take the pill. That seems to be the answer for a lot of things that women go through. Whether you don’t have your period, you have acne, you have period pain, whatever. It’s always take the pill. So that was my experience back then.

Le’Nise Brothers: When they diagnosed you with PCOS, did they do any testing? Did they do an ultrasound or was the diagnosis based on the irregular periods?

Nora Cavani: I’m pretty sure, yeah, they did ultrasounds, but there was nothing really visible back then. And I did hormone testing. There was nothing off. But it seems like PCOS is this umbrella term for whatever you’re going through that they don’t know what it is. I don’t know if that’s your experience as well.

Le’Nise Brothers: Absolutely. I interviewed someone last week and she had a very similar experience to where she got this diagnosis and then for her. It was this label that then just played on her mind.

And I just wonder the same for you, because my experience is that, when I work with women who have PCOS, they often get told that they have PCOS based on an ultrasound. But then we go in and we do more extensive testing and we find out, well actually this might not actually be PCOS.

You know, you can, there are a number of reasons why you might have irregular periods and what’s really interesting is to know that it’s very common, especially in the first three to four years of having a period for the periods to be irregular. My question back to you on this topic is, what was the result of having that label, that diagnosis of PCOS?

Nora Cavani: That’s a great question. I really thought oh, I have this condition and that I was somewhat wrong. I had this risk and this problem. So for a long time I just thought, okay, I have something that doesn’t work right.

But I also don’t have any proof of that because there was nothing that was identified as really the problem. And I didn’t really know what to do about it. The solution seemed to be, oh, just be on the pill. Then when I was in my twenties, when I was in university, I started to talk about this with my friends and I remember one time I told my flatmate, oh, I have PCOS.

And then she told me, oh, I also have PCOS. Pretty much everyone has PCOS. And I was like, really? What? What do you mean? Uh, it’s like, yeah, I have some irregular periods. I’ve had these tests, there isn’t really anything or, and others would say, oh, I have very painful periods. Um, so they told me I have PCOS.

So I really started to see the pattern here of, okay, so a lot of other women have a similar situation where they have something that is irregular somehow. They’re fine. They don’t have big symptoms and then they’re told they have PCOS and to be on the pill. So that destroyed a bit my credibility in into that diagnosis and I started thinking, okay, then.

It’s nothing or it’s normal in a way because so many other people have it. And I think that made me stop looking for a deeper root cause of what was really going on. And I started basically just taking the pill, masking the symptom. Now I have regular induced periods and it’s all good. So I forgot about it and I stopped looking into it.

Le’Nise Brothers: And how long were you on the pill?

Nora Cavani: More than 10 years.

Le’Nise Brothers: Okay. And what was the impetus that got you to come off the pill? Was it working with a doctor? Was it something that said to you, okay, I need to try something different?

Nora Cavani: And that’s the biggest transformation I had in my life.

When I was 27 years old, I started to have very, very severe eczema. So it’s an inflammatory condition of the skin. So imagine like rashes. I had them on my entire body and that’s when my body basically came to rock bottom because I was in pain 24/7. I couldn’t sleep. I was exhausted. I was scratching myself all the time.

I was literally bleeding. My skin was bleeding all day long. So that was really the time where I thought, okay, I’m sick now. I have a real disease and that now I realise that back then, that was the symptom I was seeing, but it was very likely a buildup of many other things that were happening in my body.

Maybe these irregular periods were also an early sign of that because they started already my teenage years. So irregular periods, I had a lot of UTIs. So urinary tract infections. I took a lot of antibiotics because of that. I had acne as well. I had this eczema and all of these things build up over time to a point where I really thought, I cannot live like this anymore.

And I went to so many specialists. They, what they tell you is, oh yeah, you have eczema, it’s a chronic disease. You just need to apply cortisone and it will get better. But you need to live like that for the rest of your life because it’s a chronic condition. So that was the moment where I thought, I cannot live like this.

I cannot continue to mask these symptoms and I cannot, I literally cannot live like this until I’m 60, 80, whatever, like I cannot have a life like this. I actually have a background in molecular biology and pharmaceutical engineering. So I come from science and I said, okay, now I’m going to try to understand this, where this comes from.

And I started to call scientists all around the world to read scientific publications. To read books, call the authors, and really trying to get to the bottom of this. And I identified that my diet and my lifestyle were very, very far from optimal. And I also identified that when I analysed my gut microbes.

So my gut microbiome, I had a lot of imbalances there. I had very reduced gut microbiome diversity. So I very, I had very few microbes and I had some patterns that are linked to inflammation. And I thought, wow, that’s interesting because eczema an inflammatory condition. It’s inflammation on the skin, so I have inflammation in my gut.

And then I did a blood test and I saw high systemic inflammation. So I started to connect the dots and say, okay, I have high inflammation inside of me. My gut microbiome, instead of supporting my body, it’s producing inflammation. I have high inflammation systemically in my blood, and then I have this inflammation on my skin, and then I have pimples, and that’s also inflammation on my skin.

So when I connected the dots, I was like, okay, now I need to try to fix my gut and my lifestyle and try to do everything I can to reduce this inflammation. And when I did that, my life changed completely because right now I haven’t had any rashes on my skin for two years, so I don’t have eczema at all.

All of those rashes that were covering my body disappeared. My acne went away. I will have maybe a pimple or two every once in a while, but completely different than before, and I no longer have that high systemic inflammation. I completely changed my gut microbiome. So that was so transformational for me that prompted me to really become an expert in gut microbiome and to start a company on it.

Le’Nise Brothers: I really am fascinated by your story because it not only tells us the importance of nutrition and lifestyle and the effects of what we put in our body, but it’s also, you know, when I did my, my nutrition training, one of the things that our lecturers always said to us, when in doubt, go to the gut.

When in doubt, check out what’s going on with the gut because we know that, you know, the gut is part of our immune system. It’s so important for our hormone health and when we see issues with our skin, one of the reasons is that can be an issue with the gut. I just want to go back to what you said about the pill.

So this part of this journey of changing your diet, changing your lifestyle. Was coming off of the pill a part of that journey as well?

Nora Cavani: Yes. I forgot to mention it. Sorry.

Le’Nise Brothers: It’s okay.

Nora Cavani: I went straight to the question. Uh, yes. So while I changed my diet I started to really try to eliminate all disruptors to the gut microbiome.

And we do know that pharmaceuticals disrupt the gut in to some extent. We know that not only antibiotics, but also for example, paracetamol, ibuprofen, other medication for acid reflux can disrupt the gut microbiome. And I thought, wow, I’ve been taking the pill for 10 years. Is that good for me?

Because I studied pharmaceutical engineering and I know that every time you take a drug, it always has side effects to some extent. So I started to look into that and I was like, okay what happens if I come out of that? So I stopped it. And what I saw is that at the beginning I had a bit of irregular periods, but then over time my periods became very regular, 30 days.

I had never had such regular periods before, and that was when I had changed my diet and my symptoms were already almost, uh, entirely gone. So I couldn’t help but, but thinking okay, so going back to an anti-inflammatory diet and to correct diet to a good gut microbiome to almost no eczema anymore, could that have an effect on my period regularity?

It makes sense. There are very good reasons to believe that.

Le’Nise Brothers: Absolutely. That’s basically one of the foundations of the work that I do, which is around supporting others who want to improve their menstrual health through nutrition, through lifestyle, through adding targeted supplements.

And I do see through this work just how these small changes can make such a huge difference. And I think what’s interesting is that people think that they need to do these huge overhauls of their diet, but there is also this idea that you need to build habits as well. And this is what’s going to make the changes last for a lifetime.

And you know, you now are eating this anti-inflammatory diet that is making a huge difference. If you hadn’t had any eczema symptoms for two years, apart from the odd pimple. I also want to ask about the endometriosis.

So before we started recording, you briefly mentioned that you also have endometriosis, which we know is a condition of inflammation. And this is also something that you’ve been able to address through nutrition. Can you say a little bit more about your endometriosis journey?

Nora Cavani: Definitely, this is something I found out about this year, so I have no symptoms.

I haven’t had symptoms. I haven’t had painful periods at all until this year. There was one day where I was very stressed because of other reasons, and I had an incredible pain in my abdomen. It was crazy. I had never experienced something like that. It was night, it was during the nighttime. I woke up in the middle of the night and I felt like my belly was exploding.

Really, I thought, now my belly’s going to blow up. I didn’t, I have no idea what that was, and it was so severe and so bad that I had to call an ambulance, and an ambulance came over to my place. I couldn’t open the door, so I had this super scary moment where the nurses and the doctors were on the phone with me and they were like, we’ll, need to break the door to break in, because I was screaming in pain and I couldn’t open the door.

So that was terrifying. I was able to open the door in the end. Uh, the doctors came in, they did a lot of different checks on me and they told me, you don’t have anything. You are perfectly healthy. There’s nothing to worry about. Just take a paracetamol and go to sleep. So that was a terrifying experience.

I was very, very worried. Because of that. It had never happened before. And they said, you know what, uh, you’re young, you’re very healthy. You take no medications. It’s probably just something that happened and I was like, Hmm, really? I don’t trust this. I, I’m not, I don’t know. I, I want to look further into this because this sounds a little bit suspicious.

So the first thing I did was to book an appointment to get an ultrasound because I really wanted to see if there was something, and then I also booked a full body MRI, because I like to go to the bottom of things like I, I do not trust by now when people tell you, oh, you’re fine. So I want to know, and what they saw with the ultrasound was that I had endometriosis, so I had ovarian cysts.

And quite large ones and then the MRI also saw different adhesions and quite extensive ones. Basically it could be considered stage four endometriosis, so that was a shocking thing to learn because I had no symptoms. I felt like I was very healthy at the healthiest state of my life, and I have a very balanced diet, and I felt like I reversed my symptoms.

Why do I have this? So the doctors told me that this likely started about five years ago. Interestingly, that was when I had severe eczema. And interestingly, endometriosis, as you said, it’s an inflammatory condition. And five years ago I had very high levels of inflammation in my body. So in my mind, and I talk to a lot of functional doctors about it, it’s very likely that this process started back then when I had this high inflammation eczema, acne.

That inflammation also started there and triggered endometriosis. It is also possible that because now I have this anti-inflammatory diet, I don’t have a lot of symptoms and I feel generally good.

Nora Cavani: The doctors also told me, okay, with these kind of lesions, I’m sure you feel so much pain. And I’m like, no, I don’t really have it.

I had it at one time. That happened to be a very stressful day as well, but otherwise. I’m, I’m quite good. So that’s how I’m trying to put the pieces of the puzzle together and that also prompted me to look even further into how the gut microbiome links to hormonal health and to endometriosis.

Le’Nise Brothers: Mm-hmm. I want to ask you about that in a second, but going back to what you said about the ovarian cyst, were they endometriomas?

Nora Cavani: Yes.

Le’Nise Brothers: Okay. So I just want to clarify for listeners, the ovarian cyst that Nora mentioned that are linked with endometriosis, they’re called endometriomas, and they’re also known as chocolate cysts because they can be quite large and filled with old, old blood.

So just making that clarification. So very different to the cyst that you can see with PCOS. And so now then going to the link that you mentioned between gut health and hormone health because you hosted a breakfast a month ago for your company, Alba Health, which specializes in children’s gut health.

And throughout their whole presentation I was thinking, okay, when is she going to bring out something for women’s hormone health? So let’s talk about the link between gut health and hormone health.

Nora Cavani: Yeah, so there are many things that we know about that link. There are also many things we don’t know because as you know, there’s a big gap in research when it comes to women’s health.

Le’Nise Brothers: Mm-hmm.

Nora Cavani: There are a lot of things that are not researched properly. Um, but what we do know is that women with endometriosis have a different gut microbiome. Very often they have reduced diversity, which is generally a bad thing and generally also linked to inflammation. So when you have less gut microbes, less different types, that’s called reduced diversity, and that is something that women with endometriosis often have.

They also often have some signatures that are linked to inflammation. So just to make it very simple, if you have gut microbiome imbalances, they can produce inflammation. Inflammation can trigger endometriosis. That is one thing. Then the second thing is that our gut microbes can also affect the metabolism of estrogen and how estrogen is removed from our body and endometriosis is a condition that is triggered by estrogen dominance. So when you have too much estrogen in your body, so once again, if the gut microbes regulate estrogen in our body or have an effect on estrogen in our body, if you have an imbalance in the gut microbiome, that can affect estrogen balance.

So, the gut microbes can affect our hormones directly. So that’s another mechanism of how they’re linked. There are also other mechanisms because the gut microbiome can also affect our brain and stress. Stress can have an effect on hormones. There’s also metabolism because the gut microbiome can affect, uh, body weight, can affect how we produce or extract energy from food.

That also has an effect on our hormones. And the gut microbiome can also affect nutrient absorption and digestion. That can also have a, an effect. Everything is linked, so it’s very complicated because everything is linked. We cannot just at one organ. But the, the easiest way to remember it is that the gut microbiome, if it’s imbalanced, it can affect inflammation.

And endometriosis is an inflammatory condition and it can affect estrogen levels, and estrogen levels are directly linked to endometriosis.

Le’Nise Brothers: And what’s also interesting is that when estrogen is imbalanced, I don’t really like the term estrogen dominance, which is used quite a lot in women’s health because there are times in our cycle where estrogen will be dominant.

And actually we want that. I prefer to talk about imbalanced estrogen in relation to progesterone. Maybe that’s me being pedantic. When estrogen is too high in relation to progesterone, that also creates more inflammation because too much estrogen can be inflammatory. So inflammation is a big word that we’ve been talking about a lot.

And just for listeners who are listening to this and they hear inflammation, can you just clarify for them what you mean when you say inflammation?

Nora Cavani: yeah, so inflammation is, actually a natural, phenomenon in our body. So in it can be completely normal and needed. So imagine when we have a little cut on our skin, right?

What happens is that that area can become inflamed, so it can become, uh, red, a bit swollen a bit warmer to the touch because the immune system is calling in all the cells that will help, first of all, fight off pathogens and bad bacteria so that you don’t get an infection, and it helps trigger the repair of that cut, right?

So inflammation is something that can be absolutely normal and needed in our body to repair something that is not working properly. So you have a little cut the immune system causing all the cells. There’s a repair and then it’s over. So this is called acute inflammation, so it’s inflammation that happens temporarily.

And that’s absolutely needed. It’s positive, it’s a mechanism of our body to repair the problem now. So that’s not a problem. The problem is when we have a chronic inflammation and systemic inflammation, um, that means that that same process happens. In, uh, bigger areas of our body and for a long period of time and it doesn’t stop.

So that is problematic because it can trigger a number of symptoms, really, uh, that you might not link necessarily, uh, to the gut or, or to something that you find in our blood? Right. Um, so when you have systemic inflammation that’s been linked to digestive symptoms to skin symptoms, so eczema, acne, any sort of rash.

It can be linked to mental health issues as well. That seems to be actually triggered by inflammation in the body and even in the brain. Weight gain, for example, metabolic issues, diabetes, allergies. So pretty much every chronic condition seems to have the root in inflammation. And inflammation, so where, where does it come from? It can come from. Many different things. Today, our modern lifestyle, you could say, especially in industrialized western countries, can lead to inflammation imbalanced diets, exposure to toxins and to certain artificial compounds. Not exercising, stress, uh, not sleeping adequately.

All of these things can lead to inflammation. And the gut microbiome is something somewhat in between, right? Because if the gut microbiome is imbalanced it can produce inflammation. It can be like a factory of inflammation within you, and it’s something invisible. It’s something that up to now, people didn’t really have the instrument to understand, and when I started Alba Health, I really tried to create a company that would help people understand the gut microbiome and understand how to restore it and how to take care of it so it doesn’t become this machine of inflammation, but rather it’s a well-functioning organ that can help you.

Take care of your body and all of the physiological processes.

Le’Nise Brothers: Thank you so much for that explanation. I think it’s really important just to be able to make that delineation between chronic and acute and systemic inflammation because I think inflammation is a bit of a buzzword at the moment, and people I find they don’t really understand what it really means.

I want to just ask you a question about the diagnosis, so booking an ultrasound and then booking a full body MRI. That’s, you know, I know there’ll be listeners who think, oh my gosh, that’s a dream to be able to just do that. So there is a position of privilege that you are coming from and you are able to use that privilege to get a diagnosis relatively quickly ’cause in the UK for example, if you go via the NHS, it can take anywhere between seven to 10 years to get an endometriosis diagnosis, and I wonder if, my question really is from that diagnosis, is there a next step for you? Is there going to be excision surgery or is it going to be something that you continue to manage through nutrition and lifestyle?

Nora Cavani: Great question. So first of all, yeah, I want to talk a bit about what the doctors told me and what solutions they presented to me. The first thing actually that came to my mind was, oh, what is this going to mean for my fertility? Right? That was the first thing. Luckily, my situation, it seems like I have a lot of eggs that looks good and, I don’t have any lesions in the uterus. So the first good news I got is, look, you might be able to have a normal pregnancy and you have a lot of eggs and that’s not affected. So that was the first great news for me. It can vary very much. For other people that can be different lesions, they can be less, they can be more.

So it really depends case by case. What they told me was first of all, you should take an IUD, which is a device that releases hormones. The second one was, you need to be on the pill, a progesterone pill, because that will rebalance your hormones, so to speak. And I asked to them. Does my lifestyle and diet affect endometriosis at all?

And their answer was absolutely not. There is no link between nutrition and endometriosis and this makes me so angry. This makes me so angry. This makes me so angry because, and this, this is everything that is wrong with our system. I would absolutely accept if a doctor told me. I don’t know, or I would not need to look into it, or the official guidelines don’t allow me to tell you that a specific diet will be better for you or something like that.

That’s fine. But saying that there is no link between nutrition and endometriosis is, first of all, factually wrong. Factually wrong because there is no study that denied the link between the two. So you can’t say that at most you can say there aren’t enough studies that allow me to recommend a specific diet that I would understand, but saying that there is like factually there, no link between the two is a lie.

So that makes me very angry. I did meet one doctor that said, look, there are some studies that show that anti-inflammatory diets can reduce the symptoms. It’s not a cure, but it can lower the symptoms, and I think that’s a good representation. I think that’s fair to say. Uh, but another one, and it was in the number one hospital in Sweden, I’m based in Sweden.

She told me there is no link between nutrition and endometriosis. I found that really shocking.

Le’Nise Brothers: At that point in your journey, were you able to say, well, actually I don’t think that’s correct.

Nora Cavani: I said that. But I didn’t find a person that was receptive to this message. And this is the other thing, I find that there are doctors that are curious and they’re interested and they want to be updated and they want to understand it, the latest knowledge.

There are others who come from a position of I’m the doctor and I know better, and you are just finding some information on TikTok and you don’t know. So there’s two kinds of doctors in my experience. I don’t know if you agree with that.

Le’Nise Brothers: A hundred percent. In my work as a practitioner, in this women’s health space, in my experience as a patient, but also in the conversations that I’ve had with hundreds and hundreds of women, it’s very similar.

You have doctors who would take a very patriarchal or matriarchal approach, as in I’m the doctor, don’t use Dr. Google or Dr. TikTok. And then there are others who will say, actually, I don’t know. You know, I’ve had a doctor who’s gone onto Google in front of me and said, let me just check this. And for me, I love that approach because it’s saying like, I understand that medicine, health science is still evolving. And what I learned in medical school however many years ago, even if they just graduated recently, it may have changed. So let me check that. And I think what’s really important is that you are the expert in your own body. And some doctors, they don’t accept that.

And I’m very much not. I’m, you know, some people can be very anti doctor because of these experiences. I’m not like that. But I do think that there’s work to do. Some doctors have work to do in this kind of space around bedside manner, as it were.

Nora Cavani: Yeah. Exactly. And I find, and I had the same exact experience with my eczema.

I spoke to so many dermatologists who told me straight to my face that there is no link between diet and the skin. And remember I wrote my master thesis in pharmaceutical engineering on the link between diet and eczema. So I did that comprehensive review of literature, and that was 10 years ago on how diet and lifestyle can affect eczema.

So there are strong studies and this connection is well documented. It’s absolutely true that it doesn’t transfer to the average GP and even to the average dermatologist. That’s completely understood. Uh, but just because a doctor is not well informed and not updated in their own field, it doesn’t mean that doesn’t exist.

I find it very, very worrying that doctors who are supposed to help us and help patients will not have the humbleness and, uh curiosity really to stay up to date. I understand that they’re busy and they have a lot and there’s a lot to catch up on and they cannot be experts in everything. But I think just the attitude of being open and listening to what a person is reporting and also their observations on their life.

I find it very worrying that some are not open to listen to that.

Le’Nise Brothers: Hmm, absolutely. I want to now talk more about your company, because what I really admire about you is this proactive approach. You took a really proactive approach to your endometriosis journey. You took a very proactive approach to your eczema journey.

Your eczema journey then led you to found a company, Alba Health, which specialises in gut microbiome testing and nutrition support for children age zero to 13. Can you talk a little bit about why you decided to focus on children’s gut health versus the idea that you could take your own experience and then translate it to a company that specialises in adult microbiome health.

Nora Cavani: Yes. And actually now we are also offering our test up to 18 years old. And for at the moment, we also offered for adults that are already our users. So I will tell you more about that. Just to bridge the transition of how I started the company and why we started to focus on kids. So I had my experience where I reversed my symptoms, however I am still a very sensitive person, so I still, I am prone to inflammation. I need to pay attention to what I eat, to how I live, and that has become my new lifestyle, right? So I started to ask myself, why am I so sensitive? Why is that, and why is it that today one person out of three has an allergic disease, so eczema, an allergic disease, allergies, and asthma.

Those three are the allergic diseases. So today, one person out of three has a condition like that and in the UK, 40% of kids have an allergy today, and this has increased rapidly in the past decade. In Sweden, where I’m based, it quadrupled in the past 50 years. So if, when I was a kid, I was the only one in my class that had an allergy.

Today we have 40% of kids that have an allergy. So it just started to it became a curiosity. You know, why is it that today people are so sensitive? To foods, to compounds, to whatever, like plants. It just came as a question, you know, why, why is that? And then the next question was like, can we stop this because I’m just tired of this model where you have a condition and you’re offered a quick fix for the symptom.

Basically, uh, something that, um, suppresses a symptom and masks the symptoms instead of like completely erasing your disease, that should be the dream, right? That’s, that should be what our society strives for. We should be able to erase and stop diseases, not just continue them and, and put a little, take a little pill and take the birth control pill and take the cream for eczema.

I just started to play with this thought. Could we stop and erase chronic diseases completely. So I started to look into this and really, I started to talk to scientists in the same way I did it to reverse my condition. I started to call scientists and try to understand when does this condition start?

When did it start for me that I became so sensitive to all of these different, uh, foods and, and compounds. You know, how does that even start? And what I found out was very, very interesting. So our gut microbiome is always very important at any age, but it’s even more important when you’re a child because when we are born, our gut is empty.

There’s no microbes there. And then over time, microbes start coming in and they start to almost like seed the gut and they start to grow and they form the gut microbiome. And that forms at the age of three to five years old. So from zero to three to five years old, microbes start coming in and they start to form this ecosystem.

And then three to five years old, it becomes more stable and it becomes something that you keep for your life. So what happens in these first years is very, very important because these gut microbes help our body do a lot of things. One of them is that they help train the immune system. The second one is that they help form our metabolism and educate our metabolism, which is how we extract energy from food.

And also our weight, affect our weight set points. And then the third, they also affect our brain. We know a bit less about that. It’s more complex, but the, our gut microbes also affect our brain and brain development. One thing scientists found is that if you test the gut microbiome of a child early on, you can predict the risk of allergies, eczema, asthma, and obesity later in life.

So that I found really interesting because if you test the gut of a child early on, how can you predict their health later? It means that something already happens there. Then at that point, and the other thing I found interesting is that there are some gut bacteria in children that help train the immune system, but today, kids are losing them because of antibiotics, because of c-section, because of ultra processed food and because of the clean environments we, we live in. Um, so some studies show that 90% of babies in the US lack this gut bacteria that build up the immune system. That means a higher risk of allergies, of eczema, of asthma.

I thought this is a disaster because in essence, what’s happening to the planet where we’re losing biodiversity is also happening into baby’s gut right now. So I thought, okay, as we speak, there’s millions of babies being born with those imbalances, and they have a higher risk to have that disease that made me suffer so much. So I basically quit my job and said, I want to start a company to help parents know this and to tackle it right away and to stop it. Because that’s when you realistically can reduce the risk of all of these inflammatory diseases. Also endometriosis potentially, right? Because these gut bacterial reduce inflammation if you don’t stop them right there, then you have, you are prone to have higher inflammation that can also lead to endometriosis. So that really became my mission and I started Alba Health with that objective. I started with a professor who has over 800 publications in this. He’s one of the biggest professors in the world on this.

He has a big study in, in Finland, and we developed a gut microbiome test specifically for kids. We’re the only company doing this in, in Europe. And we test the gut microbiome of kids. We give parents a detailed report on what we found and what it’s linked to, and we give a plan on how to restore and take care of the gut microbiome through a consultation for half an hour with a nutritionist.

What we saw is that parents really learn so much about their kids get health, they know exactly what to do. And a lot of our users say that their kids stop having eczema and constipation. So we see huge results with those two conditions, which is great. Of course, they also say, I feel more confident about making food for my child, knowing everything about their health.

But those are very clear benefits. We see we have now thousands of customers and we have 4.9 out of five on Trustpilot, so it’s really a service that helps parents understand everything they need to know about their kids’ gut health in such an important timeframe.

Le’Nise Brothers: It’s so fascinating and everything that you were saying about the gut and the microbiome, I just find so interesting because it’s such a key part of our health and there’s still such a lack of understanding. I mean, in the UK we’re seeing more and more understanding. We’re seeing, you know, lots of studies. We’re seeing a lot more gut focused foods, even in supermarkets like Sainsbury’s and Tesco, and so it definitely seeping into the wider understanding. But for the average person who has kids, they have a busy lifestyle. What are those kind of simple tips that your nutritionist will give parents who use your tests and their issues come back?

What are the kind of simple tips you give them?

Nora Cavani: Our tips are all about food and probiotics. Those are the two things, right? We don’t prescribe pharmaceuticals, surgeries, or anything medical, right? Um, so those are the two things, and our approach is the following. Our first step is that we identify what is lacking and what is working well.

So that’s what we do with the test, right? The test is all about seeing, okay, these things are working well. These bacteria are missing or they are too low, then the second step is to think, okay, how can we restore it? And there’s two things that we do. One is that we supply and nurture what needs to be there.

And then the second one is to reduce the disruptors. So the first one is, for example, a child is lacking some specific bacteria. So the approach is if they’re not there at all, we need to introduce them somehow, for example, with probiotics. But also we need to take care of the diet because diet, food is the fertiliser for this bacteria.

So, if you just take a probiotic, but the diet is not adequate and it’s not supplying the fibre that microbes need, then it’s not going to work. So our approach is probiotics plus fibre. Sometimes probiotics are not needed because we don’t sell probiotics. We don’t make any money out of probiotics. Sometimes we say the truth to the parents, Hey, you don’t need to buy any probiotic you need because the strains are there, the bacteria are there.

We just need to enhance them, and that can be done through diet. So diet and probiotics are the most important ones. It’s important to say that for adults, probiotics will not really seed the gut because probiotics in adults go in and out. They can still support the gut, they can still be helpful, but a lot of people think, oh, if I take this probiotic, I’m going to have it in my gut.

No, that’s not how it works. For babies and children, young children, that’s how it works for adults. It doesn’t work that way. So diet is far more important than probiotics. Then the second thing I told you was to reduce disruptors. So a lot of people today don’t realise that. They have things in their daily life that are disrupting the gut microbiome.

One of them is medications, so taking medications all the time. I know I have so many friends that take a paracetamol a lot of times, like even weekly, because of a headache, because of this, because of that. Those things can disrupt the gut microbiome. Antibiotics can disrupt the gut microbiome.

Living in too clean environments, using antimicrobials all the time can disrupt the gut microbiome, not sleeping adequately, for example, not exercising, not being in nature. There’s many things that can really disrupt the gut microbiome, ultra processed foods, for example, sugar. So we really work on, okay, what, what is this family’s lifestyle? We take a very long questionnaire where we collect everything. These are the disruptors; these are the things that progressively we need to swap out. We don’t need to necessarily cut out everything from the beginning, but what are good alternatives that could work? So our nutritionists are very skilled in helping parents with smart hacks.

Not so much are like, okay, now cut sugar, cut everything, cut, you know, cut all the things you like, but more like, okay, so. You like this and you eat it every week or every day. How about we swap it out for this other alternative that is similar, that cost about the same but has less of a disruptive effect on your gut microbiome.

And we see that with very simple changes and a probiotic, we see results even in a matter of weeks, even one week, two weeks, because in children everything is simpler in a way. And everything that they taking as food has a direct and big impact on their health. So we really see that, especially with kids.

Small changes go a very long way.

Le’Nise Brothers: I think that will be really encouraging to the parents listening. I know I’m listening and I’m thinking of the things that I try to do with my son who’s 12 and how I try to, to sneak things in and often the simplest things, they really just make the biggest difference, and you do see results with rather simple changes.

I want to ask you about what’s coming up next. Is there any markets you’re expanding to, any, anything else you’re planning and that you’ve got in the pipeline?

Nora Cavani: Now it’s a very exciting time because we’re growing a lot. We started out in Sweden, now we’re available in all of Europe and we’re growing a lot in the UK.

We see incredible interest. And we’re also really growing our webinars. So we do webinars and we do a lot of free education on the link between the gut and all of these different conditions in children and in adults. So if anyone is interested in this link and just in learning about this they can find us in our Instagram, alba health.co or our website.

And we do a lot of education there. Next things for us is we’re working on something very exciting, which is a way to continuously support families on recipes, on hacks over time on demand. So after we, we give our report and our tests and our consultation, we see that, that’s incredibly helpful. But we always look at things as, okay, how can we support the parents over time because most of our users email us afterwards and say, I want more recipes, I want more hacks, and I want to know more. So we’re working a lot on how can we help educate and take this for forward over time. So I can’t say much about our next product, but we’re working on that. How can we support over time and help parents learn more and more hacks. More and more fine tuning over time to improve their family health. That’s one of them. The second one, I can also say that we’re looking a lot into women’s health and into pregnancy, postpartum, even fertility and, um, everything that is around that area, uh, because of course a child’s health even starts with the parents’ health before, not only the mom, it’s not always just the mom that has all the responsibility, but it already starts in pregnancy. It already starts in the fertility time and in conception. We always think of how can we help next generation be healthier and not have this nasty chronic conditions. And the answer is always it all starts with the parents and it all starts with what’s happened before. So we’re focusing a lot on that and we’re looking a lot into that space as well.

Le’Nise Brothers: Fantastic. I’m really interested in what you have coming up next, and I can’t wait to see once you release it out there.

What’s the one thought you’d like to leave listeners with today?

Nora Cavani: If you are a parent, the one thought I would really love you to think about is your child’s gut microbiome is extremely important right now for their health here now, but also for their health, for life and later in life. And so it doesn’t need to be through Alba or anything.

But I hope I inspired you to think about that and to look into ways to improve your child’s gut health, because that’s extremely important for the health. If you’re not a parent, I hope I inspired you to look into how your gut health affects your health and wellbeing. It might be that you have symptoms.

It might be that you don’t have symptoms. It doesn’t matter because it’s important for all of us. Taking care of your gut microbiome and diet is extremely important for your lifelong wellbeing and health.

Le’Nise Brothers: Fantastic. Thank you so much for coming onto the show today. You shared so many incredible insights and thank you so much for sharing your story.

Nora Cavani: Thanks so much for having me, Le’Nise.