Period Story Podcast, Episode 39: Jen Wright, Listen To Your Body When It Tells You To Rest

On today’s episode of Period Story, we have Jen Wright, a cyclical living mentor. She supports creatives working with their natural rhythms – menstrual, lunar, seasonal – as they build their small business. I really loved this conversation – we talked about the importance of rest, the power of working with your menstrual cycle and Jen shared her own story. Jen has just launched Life, Aligned, a 3 month productivity and wellness journal. I can’t wait to get my copy!

Jen shared the story of her first period and how she felt shame and embarrassment about it. She says she always felt that it had to be a secret, hidden thing.

Jen says that she’s lost any shame and embarrassment and thinks she’s perhaps a bit too open about her period (I love it!). Listen to hear about how Jen’s fertility journey forced her to learn more about her menstrual health and how she fought for what was right for her personally.

Jen uses everything she’s learned in her work as a mentor and she talks about she helps her clients connect with the highs and lows of energy across their menstrual cycle. She says that if your body is saying that it’s time to rest, then listen to your body, rest and you will be so much more productive.

Jen also talked about how to use the lunar phases as a way for people who don’t have periods to connect for the ebbs and flows of their energy. Jen says that it’s so important to listen to our bodies and that rest isn’t selfish. Thank you, Jen!

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JEN’S BIO

Jen is a cyclical living mentor, supporting creatives working with natural rhythms – menstrual, lunar, seasonal – as they build their small business. Jen offers 1-2-1 mentoring, and runs gatherings with a bit of a twist. Last year it was Networking for Introverts, and Silly Heart Wanders (walking in the woods and gentle conversation with a small group of like-minded creatives) and she has a lot planned for post-lockdown meet-ups! 

Jen launched Silly Heart in 2018, knowing (from experience) that there was an easier way to run a small business than to work all hours, sell low, and risk burn out. She had happily left the advertising industry and office jobs behind to build her own stationery brand, Inky and the Beast, but the idea of busyness and constant working had followed her home from the city. In 2016 she became mum to twin girls and everything shifted.

Jen had believed it was good to be busy. “Busy” meant she was contributing, she didn’t have to feel guilty, she was moving forwards, and that she wasn’t “just a mum”. She thought, when she hit that wall, she could outsmart her body with caffeine and sugar and the right playlist… and then she discovered menstrual cycle awareness. Now Jen creates when at her most creative, writes and plans her marketing when feeling confident and social, and rests when she needs it. This small step of listening to and respecting her own body has been revolutionary, and she’s very happy to now be supporting others as they learn to work with their body, not against it.

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SHOW TRANSCRIPT

Le’Nise: Welcome to the show. 

Jen: Hi Le’Nise.

Le’Nise: Let’s start off by getting into the story of your very first period. Can you share with us what happened? 

Jen: Yeah, it was, I don’t really remember all that much about it, which is strange considering how much time I spend thinking about my period in my adult life. I think I was about 13 or 14. I know I was in high school and all I really remember about it is that I came out of the bathroom and into my mom’s room and said, I think I’ve got my period. And she went, “Oh, God” in this kind of like, it was a kind of happy sound, but it also sounded a little bit bereft, which I feel like I understand a bit more now that I’m a mother myself. Yeah. And and other than that, I remember that she gave me that she gave me pads to use, but yeah. Otherwise, I don’t remember anything about the blood or cramps or any kind of embarrassment around it, but I do remember later on when I was in high school, remembering the embarrassment around it and the shame and like, I hope that no one sees anything, flush the toilet twice and hide everything at the bottom of the bin. And the pads were so thick back then that the other girls could hear it as I was walking along the corridor, things like that, and just always feeling like it had to be this very secret, hidden thing. 

Le’Nise: Why do you think that you developed this shame and embarrassment? 

Jen: I don’t know, because I remember other girls at school talking about it, you know, almost kind of showing off about about it and doing a little kind of skit around it and making the others laugh. But I also remember friends of mine telling stories of one girl saying that she was at her friend’s house sitting on their sofa. And when she stood up, there was blood on the sofa. And so she quickly wiped it on her hand and went, “oh, no, I’ve cut my hand” and just ran out of the house and didn’t didn’t look back. And this idea that it had to be hidden and I don’t think I was explicitly given that message at home. I remember my mum talking about about it with me, but I also grew up in a house with three older brothers. So I feel it was always quite a private thing between me and my mum and just between me and my friends. And it wasn’t talked about in the rest of the house for fear of being made fun by these rather loud older brothers.

Le’Nise: Do you feel that you carry any shame and embarrassment now?

Jen: No, no, no. On the contrary, I think I’m probably a little bit too open to the point where a little while ago, I think I finally found my boundary with it when I was on a Zoom call with with my daughters and their classmates in their nursery. And we arranged like a group Zoom call, a few of us in lockdown. And one of my girls announced that I had blood in my pants, that that morning really loudly and I was like, “oh, no” and I kind of tried to, like, pass it off because it was like this whole group of parents, mums and dads and things like that. Yep. I think I finally found my boundary with it, actually.

Le’Nise: Was it one of those situations where you’re just kind of like, oh yeah and you kind of explain it away. 

Jen: Yeah, exactly. Like, “no, that’s not, yeah, anyway, so as I was saying…” And I think there was so much noise going on with kids screaming and shouting. I don’t think anyone had any idea.

Le’Nise: Yeah, a nursery Zoom call. I could just imagine the chaos of that. I want to go back to the story of you around when you started your period. So you said that your mum she was, she was fine but she was a little bit bereft perhaps because it was a transition from your girlhood through to now puberty. How did you learn about what was happening to you? 

Jen: I, I honestly, I don’t I honestly don’t really remember much. I remember, I remember classes at school. I think a very, very brief lesson on what would be happening in our bodies. And I was talking to my mum about this a while ago when when I knew I was going to be coming on to the podcast and saying, “do you remember having that conversation with me?” And she doesn’t remember either. I’m sure that we must have. But yeah, unfortunately, yeah, I don’t, I just, I don’t remember it. I remember talking to my peers about it at school later after we’d already started discussing the products that we used. And my friends were always trying to convince me to use tampons because I was just using pads. And it’s funny, but even from that kind of early age, in the early stage of the menstrual journey, I felt like my body wants it to come out. I don’t want to block it in. And it just seemed really odd to me to try and stop it from coming out. If my body is trying to expel something, then surely I’m better to just catch it when it’s already come out. So I was just yeah, I couldn’t be convinced and I remember them making fun of me and and like saying that I wasn’t really like, I wasn’t really a woman and I wasn’t really grown up for it. I was just kind of steadfast on no, that’s not that’s not right for me. 

Le’Nise: They said you weren’t really a woman because you didn’t want to use tampons?

Jen: Yeah. It was like, it was seen as like the, the oh when you get your first period, you use pads. 

But when you’re really, like, grown up and really having periods, then you use the the grown woman’s product, which is the tampon, which again is just feels like it’s more hiding it away, you know. So yeah, I was just I was pretty diligent about that. 

Le’Nise: Yeah. But that’s interesting that you knew your body so well at that point and you know, you could connect this feeling of I want, the blood, wants to come out with the the the need to use pads instead of tampons. That I find that fascinating. I’ve never heard anyone express it like that before.

Jen: Oh, OK, good.

Le’Nise: And so do you still use pads? 

Jen: I now use period pants.

Le’Nise: Oh, OK.

Jen: But yes, I was using pads up until a couple of years ago. I went on to discover period pants and then again, just haven’t looked back. It’s amazing. It’s amazing. And so much less waste as well. Plastic free in so many areas of my life. But again, when I was out to dinner with them with a group of mum friends and talked about how I just just discovered period pants, isn’t this amazing and just the looks of horror on everyone’s faces. 

But but what then you have to you have to think what? You have to rinse them out. You have to touch the blood and everyone just seemed, yeah, totally horrified by this idea. 

I was like, yeah, guys, it’s just blood, so it’s completely natural. Yes. They didn’t seem quite on board with it. I was very excited. 

Le’Nise: And it’s so interesting especially that you had that interaction with a group of mums, because when you become a parent, you become very connected with or familiar with fluids, bodily fluids. Yeah, exactly. And it’s like the that blood is still seen as like kind of the last frontier and that it provoked those reactions.

Jen: Yeah. 

Le’Nise: And I really wonder, when did we become so afraid of our own blood? When does that when does that start and…

Jen: Well, it’s so interesting, isn’t it, because and again, it’s not just any blood, it’s just period blood that is still seen as dirty. And that message is given to us from such a young age and through, throughout our lives with the simple fact that they’re called feminine hygiene products and called sanitary towels and everything makes it sound like, oh, that area is dirty and what you’re dealing with is dirty and needs to be cleaned up. And it’s just this subliminal message that’s constantly told to us that, yeah, as you say, even after becoming parents, when we’re basically either covered in jam or poo, we’re still worried about talking about period blood. 

It’s, yeah, it’s crazy. 

Le’Nise: So you talked about how you found your boundary when it comes to talking about periods. 

But I want to ask you, when did you start to become more open in terms of talking about your period because you described when you were a teenager this shame and embarrassment? When did things change? 

Jen: I think probably on my fertility journey, they, things had to change because I was discussing with so many different doctors and consultants, so it took us about three years to get pregnant. And again, I didn’t I, I kind of resisted intervention for a while. I was diagnosed with polycystic ovarian syndrome (PCOS) when I was in my early 20s and told that it would be very difficult to get pregnant. And added to that, I had been on the contraceptive pill on and off since I was 15 years old, which obviously didn’t, didn’t help matters either. But when when I was off the pill and we were actively trying for a baby, I was going in and out of all these different kind of doctor’s appointments. And so that was when I started to get to know my my very irregular cycle.

So sorry, going back a little bit when I was when I was still a teenager. After my period arrived, I would only have one, maybe once, one or two year. So they were they were still very rare for me. And they stayed there for a couple of years when I went to the doctor and said everything’s still very irregular. And I remember that they were very heavy when they did come. And so no other questions were asked. I was just dropped straight onto the contraceptive pill and I stayed on it for six years. And it’s only as an adult I’ve learnt that actually more questions should be asked to find kind of the underlying issues and also that it’s quite normal as a teenager for your periods not to regulate until until you’re older. But we’re not really given a chance before we’re given the contraceptive pill. I’ve lost my train of thought now.

Le’Nise:Go back to what you were saying about the pill and talk a bit more about why you came off it, because you started at 15 and then you came off. You were on it for six years. So you came off when you were 21. What made you decide to come off the pill? 

Jen: So I think a number of reasons. I, I had been quite, quite miserable and quite moody throughout my later teenage years, which again, I think everyone put down to adolescence. I put it down to my own adolescence and boy problems and things as well. Actually, looking back, I do wonder whether it was something to do with that, because when I came off the, the pill, things did change for me emotionally. Over a couple of years, I found myself in quite a toxic relationship and it was kind of like I saw sense a little bit and like something in me woke up and I, I found my way out of that relationship, fortunately. And I then, I then went back on the pill again, feeling like everything’s still irregular. If I if I don’t want to keep going out and being surprised by my periods arriving when I’m out and about, then the only option for me is to go on the pill. 

So I went back on the pill for a few years and then as I say, my husband and I wanted to try for a baby. And so I only came off the pill like literally a few months before we actively started trying.  

So I started going to different appointments where they started to tell me all of the options for me, which all sounded just like something that I didn’t, I didn’t want. And I was very I was adamant with my husband from the beginning that I, I wouldn’t want to go down the IVF route if things were difficult for us for years. I wouldn’t want to go down the IVF route. And again, it kind of comes back to that not wanting to do the opposite of what my body wanted to do. If my body is telling me that it’s not ready for whatever reason or it’s not doing it for whatever reason, then I need to sort out my body, not force it to do something it doesn’t want to do. And that was just what felt right to me personally. So before before I tried any of the options that the doctors were offering me, I was going back for blood tests and hormone levels and all that. While I was having that, I went to acupuncture and started taking Chinese herbs and things and tried that for about six months, I believe. But unfortunately, it didn’t seem to be having the right, the right effect. If anything, I felt actually a little bit poorly over the months that I was taking the Chinese herbs and my acupuncturist was so wonderful. She said, “I think that you’re just very sensitive to this to this style of intervention. And maybe it’s time to try something else.” “OK, I’ll try something else.”

And so I ended up taking a drug called Clomid, which was to kind of force ovulation and again, they said that I needed to take it when I started my periods and my period was still only coming once or twice a year. They offered me progesterone to bring on a fake bleed. And again, I said, “I’m not taking that because to bring on a fake bleed, how is that going to help you get pregnant?” That’s nothing to do with my natural cycle. So I said, “I’m just going to wait. It might take a few months, but I’ll wait until my period actually arrives.”

And fortunately, about six weeks later, my period did arrive. So I took the Clomid and fell pregnant with twins, which was a bit of a shock. And oh, so my body obviously was just ready to wake up by that point. Yes.

And then obviously no menstrual cycle while pregnant. And at the beginning I had my my girls I was expressing and attempted to breastfeed and it didn’t, didn’t work for me with the two. They were premature and both had tongue tie and it turned out quite serious dietary issues with one of my daughters as well. And so I ended up switching to formula. 

And so quite early on, my period returned and I remember being furious about it, just like I waited so many years for my menstrual cycle to sort itself out and now at this point where I don’t need to ovulate and I don’t want to have more babies now, it’s suddenly going to start turning up like clockwork. And it did. It started becoming more and more regular and more and more frequently, almost as if my body had gone, ‘I understand what I what I’m supposed to do now, OK? Yes, I’m going to kick it into gear.’

Le’Nise: Your story is so interesting because you ostensibly had PCOS, but then but you because your periods were so irregular when you were a teenager, which is actually really common, that, you know, then you started taking the pill, which suppresses ovulation, came off the pill, went back on it again and then came off the pill, then had to take a drug to stimulate ovulation. It’s fascinating. 

And then you got pregnant and gave birth and your periods, your menstrual cycle resolved itself.

Jen: Yeah. 

Le’Nise: And so it’s really fascinating how quick the doctors were to put you on the pill when you were 15, when perhaps, you know, hindsight being 20 / 20, it may have been better to just wait to see what have, what what what would have happened naturally to your body. 

Jen: Yeah, completely. And and I wish, I just wish I’d known then what I know now, because I don’t believe I would have taken the pill at all. And yes, maybe I wouldn’t have spent most of my life thinking, oh, I have huge and irregular periods because the fact that they’re regular now I mean, they are every kind of 35-36 days usually, but that’s still regular. I can still plan around it and I can still track it. 

Maybe that’s what would have happened anyway if I’d just let my body kind of ease itself into it rather than going yeah you’re not doing the right thing, we’re going to fill you with drugs again and years later, and you’re not doing the right thing filled with drugs. And and again, it wasn’t raised when I was talking to consultants about all the different things they were offering me to help me get pregnant. 

It was never really addressed the fact that I’d been on the contraceptive pill for that many years, it was never you know, I was told, “oh, well, you only came off such as much time ago. So you need to give your body time to regulate itself.” But it was it, otherwise, that was it was never mentioned again. 

Le’Nise: You said something interesting about you, you were going to go on the Clomid, but you were uncertain because you felt like, or prior to that you didn’t feel like your body was ready to do to go on, that you wanted to find another way. And that’s again, then another example that you’ve mentioned where you’ve really been able to tune into your body and be able to listen. 

And it’s fascinating because that’s something that I’m starting to see more and more, more women being able to start to listen to their bodies and listen to what what their bodies are telling and actually respond to that, not just hear it and then just kind of carry on. 

How do you continue to develop that kind of connection with what your body is telling you? 

Jen: So well, not so early last year, I was I was talking with a with a friend and she recommended the book Period Power to me. And I think from reading that it was just it it was just like a mind blowing moment, learning all of this all of these facts about my body and my hormones and just how how much is affected by hormones, because we still talk about it as if it’s just we get, we get kind of emotional and pain for a week and then we bleed for a week and that’s it. And the rest of the time, we’re not on our period and that’s it.

But actually, the cycle is constant. We are always on the cycle of of different hormones flowing through our body. So, of course, that’s going to affect us every day in a different way. So, yeah, everything that I’ve learnt from. Period Power and my own fertility journey, and I then I then became a voracious reader of anything that was about the menstrual cycle and also reading and I mentioned before the book How the Pill Changes Everything by Sarah Hill, which was fascinating and gives you so much more insight into everything that the hormones do, because, again, you think of it all just affecting your uterus, basically. And actually it’s all these signals from the brain, they affect your entire body and mind. 

So, yes, I’ve just been kind of trying to bring that learning into my day to day life and then into my mentoring work as well. So when, when I start, when I started mentoring women back in 2018, I already was very adamant with them when we were talking about the kind of their to do list and their ideas and everything they wanted to do, something that was always key for me to bring up in the conversation was, “OK, but when are you resting? When when are you going to do something fun for you? When are you creating just for the sake of creating” and how frequently the answer was just, “oh, no, I don’t I don’t have time to do that or no, I haven’t even considered that. How could I possibly do that? I’m already running on empty.”

Well, yes, you’ve just answered your question. 

If if you rest and give yourself a chance to just sit and breathe and you know, the ideas that you feel blocked around will flow more easily and give your body a chance to to recoup. And I guess I’ve just, just now increased those questions with my clients and we work them around the menstrual cycle. So I talking to a client a couple of days ago and she was laying out all of all of this work that she wants to get done over the next few weeks and saying, “yeah, it feels it feels manageable. You know, I’ve got this lot of stuff here in this little stuff here,” “OK, but when when these your bleed due? Aren’t you due soon?”

“Yeah, I’m actually due the day of that deadline. Maybe I should shift that.” I’m kind of trying to bring that consideration into, into our work because it it does affect us. And I think a lot of a lot of women still fight that saying, no, I am in control. I say, that I need to do these things and I will get on and do it and say, well, you are your body. And if your body is saying that it’s time to rest, then listen to your body, rest and you will be so much more productive and feel so much brighter and more positive for having that rest. 

Yeah, and I’ve been trying to practise what I preach for the most part. 

Le’Nise: Why do you think we’re so resistant to rest?

Jen: Oh, the patriarchy. I think we’re just we’re just indoctrinated with this belief that we have to be busy. We have to be busy all the time to really be seen as contributing and really being seen as being productive. And I’m a victim of that myself, of you know, I had a very busy, very stressful office job for years. And even when I started working for myself, I ran a stationary brand for a few years. I just still felt like if I wasn’t working all the hours, then how could I possibly ever be successful and how would people take me seriously? And it just it’s just a one way ticket to burn out. And you don’t do your best work in that space. So and it’s mad that we leave these jobs going, oh, I don’t want to be in the rat race. I want to start my own business. And then we work harder for ourselves than we would ever accept working for somebody else. And there is this this old kind of patriarchal view of, you know, I must work the same every day, day in, day out, must make money, must, you know, just keep going no matter what. 

Le’Nise: It’s interesting what you’re saying about this patriarchy and productivity and needing to work harder for yourself, because I could completely relate to all of it. I I’m actually on day three of my period right now. And so Saturday I, I usually have lots of stuff to do in the morning, but for whatever reason, things got cancelled out of my diary. So all of a sudden I had all of this free time. My husband and son were out of the house off to play football. And I said to myself, Why don’t you just read and rest? I had a book that I wanted to really get into. It was in a fiction book which I love reading fiction, and I don’t read enough of it. And I, I was like, just lay in bed. You don’t feel good, you’re tired, just lay down and read. And there was so much resistance to it. I kept looking over at my laptop and thinking maybe I should just do this. No: read. And in the end, I read, I actually finished the whole book.

Jen: Oh wow.

Le’Nise: Yeah, I’m a fast reader, so I read the whole book and I felt so much better by the end of the day. And I just, it was just a reminder of firstly, practise what you preach. And secondly, that rest is so important. It’s like almost feels revolutionary at times. 

Jen: Yeah, it does. And it’s like you say you’re looking around going, oh, well, maybe I should do that first. Almost like you have to earn the right to sit down and read your book.

You’ve already earned it. And here is your permanent permission slip when you feel tired it is a message from your body to sit your butt down and rest. We listen to all of these other messages from from our body. Just the simple case of the circadian rhythm of just, it’s night time, I’m tired, I’m going to go to sleep. And obviously there are a few people I know, who say, “I will stay awake for as long as humanly possible”, and fight against that. But the average person will go, will accept, I’m tired, I’m going to go to sleep. 

And yet, I really feel like I need a rest. I better do all of the housework and also all of my emails and just sort all this out first. And no I just just sit down. 

Le’Nise: I want to talk more about the mentoring work that you do and how you’ve managed to tie in the ebbs and flows of the menstrual cycle around that. 

Talk a little bit more about how you educate your clients about that and whether there’s any resistance they have to incorporating that into the way that they work. 

Jen: So, yeah, I don’t think I’ve actually encountered any resistance with my clients, which has been brilliant other than kind of, they’re not being aware of how much it affects at the beginning when we start talking about it to a mere few weeks later or a month later going, “I can’t believe now I’ve been tracking it I can see exactly where it is that I should be, you know, resting or where I should be planning that deadline.”

And that’s that’s such a good way of looking at it rather than resisting this idea that you’re not in control. It’s taking control of it and going, right. I’m going to I’m going to track, track my cycle so I can plan for my next one and know that, oh, there’s that networking event that week that I’d really like to go to, oh, God, I’m going to be on day 28 or for day 1. And I’m really not going to feel like talking to people. I’m going to mess up my words. 

Oh but there’s this networking event that falls around ovulation when I’m going to be like really confident and feeling sexy and I’m going to go and talk to everyone and sell them what I do. 

And just being able to be able to plan that way is is hugely empowering and liberating. And I did it myself the first time last year. OK, I’m actually going to put this theory into practise for myself. And I booked my first professional photo shoot going getting some some photos taken from my website and she offered me some dates. Oh, great, that date falls on kind of as the moon is becoming full and I’ll get into the lunar phases as well. And just as I’m coming up to ovulation, so I’m going to be feeling like more confident, more energetic, a little bit more playful. And and I did I felt great, something that would usually fill me with much dread. And I had to get up the early hours and it was a freezing cold day. And like travelling on the train delays, I had to go up north and usually I’d be just a ball of stress by the time I got there, I was still just so excited and and it was a brilliant, brilliant day. And I think that if I booked that a couple of weeks later or earlier and I was, you know, in the middle of my period or something, it would have been a completely different experience. 

Le’Nise: Yeah, can you talk a bit more about the lunar lunar phases, so you have a brilliant Facebook group for anyone who’s listening. I’ll put it in the show notes: it’s called Life, Aligned

And you talk about not only menstrual cycle tracking and what that can bring to in terms of work and life, but you also talk about the moon phases. I don’t know a huge amount about it, so I’d love to hear more from you about what it what what it’s all about.

Jen: Sure. So, yeah, because the group stemmed from my desire to kind of bring, bring what I was learning to a wider audience because I work one on one with, with people, but I started the group to just to see kind of how it would work in the group setting. Talking about cycles, but obviously it would be very difficult to talk about everyone’s individual menstrual cycle if you end up with lots of different people in different, different timing. So I thought, well, we’ll do it around the lunar cycle and I’ll talk about how that reflects the energy of the menstrual cycle because it does mirror it.

So from the new moon would be reflective of your menstrual stage, your bleed when energy is at its lowest and light is at its lowest. And you just feel like being kind of indoors and cosy and hibernating. Waxing moon would be spring, energy to return, in spring, your follicular phase, when you’re coming out of your bleed and heading towards ovulation and oestrogen is starting to rise in your body and you feel a little bit more energetic, playful. And then Full Moon is reflective of ovulation when you’re feeling most confident and outgoing and productive and you kind of want to share your ideas with the world. And then as the moon wanes again, the energy starts to wane also and it starts to wane, it would be reflective of the luteal phase. So post-ovulation and oestrogen drops, progesterone starts to rise and you just kind of want to hunker down and get back into that hibernation mode. 

Le’Nise: So in terms of the lunar cycle, do you talk about, because you can see the connection for people who are still menstruating, but for someone who is either going through perimenopause, menopause or post menopause, do you talk about, how does it work in terms of connecting your lunar phase with whatever else is going on in your life. 

Jen: So, yeah, that’s that’s exactly when when you’re not having that menstrual cycle for whatever reason, if you’re pregnant, perimenopausal or for whatever reason, and having the lunar cycle to look to, to ensure that you’re still taking time to rest and that you’re still kind of working on that cycle rather than working on a treadmill is is really important. So, yes, I lost lost my train of thought again, sorry…

Le’Nise: So you were saying that for people who who don’t have a period, for whatever reason, using the lunar cycle is a really nice way to to rest, to remind yourself to rest because you don’t have that menstrual cycle to connect with. I think that’s really interesting because I get those questions a lot when I talk about menstrual cycle, menstrual cycle, tracking a lot. And people will say to me, “oh, well, I don’t have, I don’t I take the pill so I can do this or I’m menopausal or post menopausal. How does it work for me?” And I love that lunar cycle tracking as a tool because again, it’s a reminder to rest and it’s a reminder that we are still cyclical beings, even if we are, don’t have a menstrual cycle for whatever reason, we need to rest. Rest is important. Rest is our right.

Jen: Yes. It is our right, yes. It gives some still, gives women a way to kind of grounds themselves rather than going back to kind of working every day in the same way. OK, so it’s we’re coming to the new moon. I’m going to schedule in a couple of days to just take a break and really practise self care. 

Le’Nise: So if you had one thing to say to someone who’s listening to this podcast, what would you what would you want that to be? What would you want to leave them with? 

Jen:Oh. Yeah, I think the most important thing is, you sound like a broken record is listening and listening to your body. Again, so often we we do fight. We automatically fight against this idea of taking a break and this fear of looking like we’re not contributing and we’re not being productive. And the brilliant Untamed by Glennon Doyle, which I feel like almost everyone has right now. If you haven’t, I highly recommend it. She speaks about how, you know, the what we’re all striving for is to be selfless, to kind of make ourselves disappear so much that we are seen as completely selfless. And this is like the epitome of being a good, a good person, a good mother, a good woman. And I think that is so ingrained in us that we feel it’s, it’s selfish of us to want to, as you say sit down and read a book. But actually, it’s so, so important for our own mental health, physical health, to just keep ourselves rested so we can carry on, like keeping our brain firing on all cylinders and keep bringing our brilliant ideas to the world and keep like looking after whoever we’re giving care to, children or family or community. We need to be rested in order to do those things. 

Le’Nise: That is such a brilliant message and I really encourage all of my listeners to take that to heart. Rest is so powerful and it’s not necessarily just about being productive. It’s also about feeling better in yourself and just feeling your best self to, to quote Oprah. How can listeners find out more about you? 

Jen: You can find out more about me on my website, which is www.sillyheart.co.uk and I am sillyheartco, all one word across pretty much every other social network going. And you will most likely find me hanging out on Instagram.

Le’Nise: And your Facebook group?

Jen: My Facebook group is Life, Aligned and it’s a closed group. So everything you can share in there is just within, within the group. And it’s such a friendly, warm, calming space. It’s really lovely. Yes. You can find me on Facebook on Life, Aligned.

Le’Nise: Thank you so much for coming on the show, Jen. It’s so brilliant to talk with you, connects with you and find out more about what you do. 

Jen: Thank you so much for having me. 

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Period Story Podcast, Episode 38: Dr. Dani Gordon, CBD And Botanical Medicine Is About Empowering Yourself

On today’s episode of Period Story, I had the pleasure of speaking to Dr Dani Gordon, an expert in CBD and cannabis medicine and the author of the book, the CBD Bible. Dani is a double board certified medical doctor and integrative medicine physician. She has advised the UN, governments and physician bodies on the use of medical cannabis and also co-founded the UK Medical Cannabis Clinicians Society, trained the UK’s first cannabis medicine specialists and helped set up the UK’s first cannabis medicine clinics.For anyone that’s interested in CBD, especially its use for period pain, this episode is a must-listen! 

We talked about Dani’s first period and how she learned to manage her menstrual health as a competitive swimmer. She says she felt really empowered by her first period and really supported by her mom during this time.

We talked about the link between stress and changes in periods and menstrual cycles (something I’m seeing a lot right now!). Dani shared how as she got older, she started to link the heavy periods she was experiencing with stress and what she did to manage this stress. Her doctor told her that her only option was to suppress the hormone imbalances and bad periods with the pill 🥴 Listen to hear how Dani gradually realised there were other things she could do to manage and improve her menstrual health.

Dani talks about how she started out as a conventionally trained medical doctor and told me what inspired her to shift to integrative medicine and to ultimately focus on CBD and cannabis medicine. She shares how her patients opened her eyes to the benefits of cannabis for chronic pain relief and this inspired her to learn more.

Listen to learn the difference between CBD and THC, what the endocannabinoid system is and the wide range of conditions CBD can help with (including period pain!). The world of CBD is rapidly growing in the UK and Dani shares her top tips on how to choose the right type for you, including ways to access medicinal cannabis for severe conditions.

Dani says that CBD and botanical medicine is about empowering yourself about your health and wellness and taking control back. Thank you, Dani!

Get in touch with Dani:

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DANI’S BIO

Dr Dani Gordon is a double board certified medical doctor, integrative medicine physician and world leading expert in CBD, cannabis medicine, brain wellness and stress resilience. She has advised the UN, governments and physician bodies on the use of medical cannabis, and was one of the youngest physicians to become American board certified in Integrative Medicine (the newest US physician sub-specialty). She also co-founded the UK Medical Cannabis Clinicians Society, trained the UK’s first cannabis medicine specialists and helped set up the UK’s first cannabis medicine clinics.

She has studied mindbody medicine at Harvard, yoga and meditation extensively throughout India and south east Asia with traditional teachers, QEEG brain scanning and EEG neurofeedback brainwave training with the top leaders in North America. Dr Gordon is the co-founder of UltraResilience, a wellness company specializing in burnout and stress resilience programs for individuals and organizations.

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SHOW TRANSCRIPT

Le’Nise: Thank you so much for coming on the show today.

Dani: Thanks for having me, Le’Nise.

Le’Nise: So let’s start off by getting into the story of your first period. Can you tell us what happened? 

Dani: So I was trying to think back to my first period when you emailed me and I was thinking, gosh, I don’t have a very, very clear recollection for some of the parts. But certainly I remember that I was 12. I was a competitive swimmer at the time. So it was kind of a big deal because, of course, I was training at quite a high level in the swimming pool and I needed to think about what I was going to do when I had my period. A lot of people on the swim team who were my age were taking days off of training when they had their period. And it was the big decision almost right away: do I use a tampon?

Which is kind of a traumatic decision for a 12 year old. But I was really lucky. My parents are really supportive of just body image stuff in general. And my mom was really supportive. So we talked it out. And I think I think I had a few periods in and then she basically taught me how to use the tampon and it went OK. And I went to swim practice. And I remember feeling pretty empowered because I didn’t have to take practices off when I had my period. So I think that’s the thing I remember most about. My first year was I was with my first friends to use a tampon and then of course, everyone wanted to know about it and it was a big deal.

So I didn’t really have any bad periods per se when I first started menstruating. But definitely when I was a teenager, 15, 16, I did get some heavy periods. I think partly it was due to stress. I was a very driven teenager. I was very academic. I put a lot of pressure on myself. And I think looking back, a lot of it was related to when I was when I was over, overly stressed or kind of stretched too thin with my academics and my sport. And I remember going up the stairs of my high school and we had to wear uniforms, so I had to wear a kilt. And I remember feeling blood trickling down my leg, walking up the stairs and just being mortified. And then I had a big patch of period blood on my, on my, my kilt. And I had to wrap my, my sweater around my waist for the rest of the day. 

So I think those are kind of two of the most emblazoned period memories I, I have probably, from being a teenager. So, nothing too dramatic, but certainly that that walking up the stairs worrying about boys seeing me, I think those are things that a lot of women go through and no one really talks about, though. So I often, I often talk about these things when I do talks about women’s health.

Le’Nise: And going back to when you got your first period, you said it was really empowering. 

Your mom taught you how to use a tampon and knowing that so swimming is quite intense, you’re in the water. You never had any issues after you learnt how to use a tampon with your swimming, on your period. 

Dani: No, I was actually really lucky. I think that part was really easy. It was kind of later on when I started to have some heavy periods that I started to really connect it to, oh maybe this is stress related? What can I do about this really heavy period that I’m having? But the first few years, my periods were quite light and I just was able to use kind of the junior tampon. And I went to swim practice and it was it was almost like it wasn’t a big deal. I remember even having a big race when I had my period, probably when I was about thirteen. And I did a lot of visualisation as part of my training. 

So I would visualise myself feeling more powerful because I was having my period and going through this race rather than I think the other way of thinking about it: I’m going to be really tired for this race. Or maybe someone had a heavy period, they would be really tired. So I think generally my, my first experiences were positive. But certainly I think the fact that I remember that walking up the stairs and bleeding, it’s probably probably a bit of a traumatic experience.

Le’Nise: And you said that you linked having a heavy period with stress, which is quite, quite advanced. 

When I think about the other guests that I’ve had on the show or other women I’ve spoken to, when they, when they’ve heavy periods, often they’re not sure why they have heavy periods and they just kind of get, get on with it. How did you learn how did you make that connection and how did you learn about what was happening to you? 

Dani: I think it was just kind of a thought that I had really when I was a teenager and when I was 16, I finished, I went to university when I was 17 and I already knew I wanted to do medicine, so I was already kind of had a bit of a scientific mind, I think, thinking about these things. But there is not a lot of information out there. Like when I went to my doctor about my heavy periods, he said, “well, you can you can go on the pill if you want.” And that’s what I ended up doing because I also wanted birth control when I was around 16. So I talked it over with my mom. My mom was really supportive and she said, “if you’re going to be sexually active, you want to be safe and you should go on a birth control pill and all these things and then it’ll help your periods.” And I also had some teenage acne. So those three things kind of led me to the pill. But when I went to discuss that with my medical doctor as a teenager, there was not even any discussion of stress and periods, really. That was something I just kind of thought about.

And what did I do about it? Well, nothing really concrete, really, at the time. I guess I was just trying to connect the dots. And really, as I got into university and I had to really manage my stress, I got more into yoga and meditation quite early. I was, I started doing yoga by 18 to help the stress at university. So I think for me it was just a gradual kind of realisation versus the doctor’s opinion at the time. The GP’s opinion was, “OK, you just well, if you have bad periods or if you have hormonal imbalances just suppress it with the pill, that’s the only option.” It wasn’t really ever discussed, anything else that could be a factor. And of course, I’m not against going on the pill either. Some some of my patients say the pills saved them. We’re going on an IUD. So I’m not against the western medical solutions. But I do think when it’s offered as the only conversation for women, that can be a little bit limiting or a lot limiting. I think this idea that you just the only thing to do when you have a bad period is just suppress it rather than digging, as you said, into stress playing a factor. Are hormones playing a factor? I didn’t learn really about the fact that we had hormone cycles until I was in medical school properly about oh, so maybe I feel more energised. I can do more cardio training in the first half of my cycle versus the second half of my cycle. I generally feel maybe not so energised and I need to be more eating different foods, having a more nourishing diet, more nourishing routine, avoiding the caffeine. Those things I didn’t learn about until I learnt about the anatomy and physiology of periods in medical school. And even then they just taught us the kind of medical parts. But they didn’t ever connect it back with saying, oh, this is how you can change your lifestyle or in your period. It was just purely like this is what the hormone levels do at this day. So I felt like I was really disconnected. I had to kind of connect the dots myself. 

Le’Nise: And when you were making those connections so, I mean, by the way, everything you’re saying is music to my ears. 

But when you are making those connections and when you were putting the pieces together and did it change what you thought about being on the pill? Talk a little bit about your journey coming off the pill. 

Dani: Yeah, that’s a really good question. So I was one of the main reasons I really liked the pill because I had this teenage acne. So of course, my mom wanted to help me with my acne. She bought me this. I remember she bought me this expensive infomercial kind of natural system for my acne that it didn’t work but she really wanted to help me. I was really, like, really supportive parents. So when I decided to come off the pill, it was really I guess it was near the end of medical school. So I was 24 at the time. So I’d been on the pill for almost a decade and I didn’t really have any side effects on the pill. I felt fine. My skin looked great. I just I didn’t have bad periods. I had very light periods.

But one of the things that made me consider coming off it actually was is really two things. The first one was I started to study more natural medicine at the same time as I was taking my medical degree. And I got, I got really interested in getting in touch with my cycles and the fact that when you’re on the pill, you have pill periods, you’re not really in touch with the natural cycles. So I really wanted to see what would happen if I had a natural cycle and I got into a natural rhythm. What would happen to to my emotions would I, I don’t know would I have a better sex drive. And I didn’t even know that my sex drive was lower on the pill necessarily. But I wondered if things like, for example, reaching orgasm was was a problem on the pill, because it’s another thing I didn’t really understand fully at the time. Even though I had a boyfriend, I was sexually active, but I didn’t feel like it was easy for me to have an orgasm. And I was like, ‘OK, well, of course there’s a medical school. So I was doing all this research on the pill. I wonder if apparently the pill can cause this.’

So there was all these little things that kind of led me to say, well, I think I just want to try coming off of it. So that’s what I did. And when I stopped the pill, it was a really interesting process for a few reasons. The first thing is when you come off the pill and you’re this and this is like 15, 20 years, 15 years ago, the first reaction to a boyfriend, of course, is, oh, now we have to use condoms. They don’t like it very much. So first of all, you have the male pressure. Second of all, my skin just went crazy. So my skin, it gradually got worse. And then it got my acne really, really came back and my periods did get heavier. So I had that to deal with. And but I decided actually to stay off of it because I did find my sex drive did increase and I really liked it. And I did feel like it was easier for me to reach orgasm in sexual intercourse. And I just thought that that was such a great benefit that I really wanted to see what else I could do naturally. And in that way, that was kind of the beginning of me going down more of a natural route towards kind of managing my cycles, realising that if I wasn’t on the pill, I did some topical treatments for my acne. So I used the benzyl peroxide and I used a few of the vitamin A acids. I was really lucky I didn’t have to do any Accutane or anything, so I kind of managed my skin like that.

I got into really looking at my cycle as kind of a cycle, not me feeling the same way every day. And that really helped. And I really started to look at my stress levels and I added herbals like ashwagandha. And I started taking a lot of supplements. I already had a very healthy diet, but I started adding more healthy oils to my diet and all those things just really helped. So I never went back on the pill. And I think the biggest pressure to go back on the pill over the years has probably been boyfriends and guys, because it’s a pain in the butt when you’re in a long term relationship to not be on the pill. But I decided I was really going to stick with my decision. And for me, it’s been the best decision. And I wouldn’t say that for everybody, of course. But, yeah, that was it was a big it was a big shift for me. 

Le’Nise: Can you talk a little bit more about the connection between the pill and libido, because what you said is quite interesting. And you said that you when you were on it, you still were having sex, but you noticed that when you came off that your orgasms were more intense. As a physician, can you talk a little bit more about why that might be? 

Dani: So there’s it’s not really a very well studied area, to be honest, but some women find that they have trouble reaching orgasm when they are on the pill. And it’s probably because the way the pill affects our natural hormones, but we don’t know exactly, exactly why. And some women don’t find a difference and some women do. And I think because of the lack of really sexual education to the point of focussing on women’s orgasms, when I was a teenager, I didn’t really know a lot about how to have an orgasm or how to self pleasure and all these things. So for me, when I first started having intercourse with my first serious boyfriend, I was 17, I, I really didn’t know much about it. I just thought having good sex, was feeling pleasure and not feeling pain. And that was kind of it. And we didn’t, I didn’t really talk about what I liked with my partner or how to maybe for him to help me have an orgasm. 

So I think it was a lack of, I guess, awareness about women’s orgasm in general that led me to really maybe take a few more years to kind of put the connection together. ‘Oh, I wonder if I’m not having orgasms when I have intercourse with a partner, partly because, well, maybe I don’t know how to pleasure myself properly.’ I went on that journey. And then the other thing is, ‘I wonder if it’s the pills.’ So, yeah, we don’t really know. But a lot of my patients will say the same thing. 

They will. And oftentimes, unless I ask them, they will never bring it up. But I often will ask on certain medications as well. “Have how is, how is your your sex is, your libido, how are you able to reach orgasm or are you happy with it.” And women don’t care. And that’s fine too, some women are just not really into sex that much and everyone’s different. But if it bothers them that they’re not having orgasms or if their libido is low, it bothers them, then I think it’s something to do, something to look at definitely as a possible factor. 

Le’Nise: I want to talk more about the connection between stress and periods, because it’s certainly something that I’m seeing a lot in my practice where being in a pandemic, being in lockdown, women are coming to me and saying, my period is late, it’s missing or it’s longer or it’s more painful. And you’ve talked about the connection between the changes in your period and stress. For listeners who are putting the pieces together for themselves, can you talk a little bit more about why that connection happens? 

Dani: Definitely. So this is something we know a lot about, actually, and I think doctors should talk more about it. So when your, your cortisol, when your stress hormone levels are high chronically over a longer period of time, you tend to crave sweets and carbohydrates because the body thinks that you’re constantly trying to run away from a sabertooth Tiger. So the body gets confused because we’re supposed to have this this rush of stress when we’re in physical danger, so when we were cavemen, we were living our life in the jungle and everything was great, and then we would see a sabertooth tiger and the cortisol would come on, would enable us to run away from the tiger, give us that muscle energy, and then the cortisol will go back down once the tiger was gone. But the modern life, we have all these mental threats. So your boss emails you something stressful, you have a due date at work, you have a fight with your partner. All of these little things build up, build up, build up. And the body treats it the same way as if you were constantly running away from a tiger if you’re not managing your stress. So what happens instead of the cortisol coming back down, that stays high. So, yes, you get those food cravings.

It even affects memory consolidation, so you feel foggy, but kind of wired, so I call it tired, but wired problem, irritable and on edge, but unable to wind down, you don’t make as much sleep hormone at night, naturally. So your body can’t sleep as deeply and then is a vicious cycle and then you need more caffeine, like a little bit of caffeine in the morning. Like I drink a cup of coffee in the morning, but I just limit it to one. And for most people that’s OK. But if you’re needing caffeine more, then I say really a cup or two in the morning every day and you need it to wake up. That’s potentially a sign that your body is feeling quite stressed clinically. So all these things, of course, go back to affect our women’s hormones that balance our cycles, because if we’re not sleeping properly, we’re not eating the right foods, we’re not supporting our women’s hormonal system. Then things start to get out of balance and period problems show up. And then there’s genetics. So some women are blessed with just being, I call it, having a high stress set point. And some people are not. And it’s no one’s fault. It’s just the way it, it’s partially genetics, partially environment, partially what, what we’re conditioned over the years, our life experience, all these factors. 

So so. Yeah. So that’s that’s really how stress plays a central role. 

Le’Nise: That’s really interesting. 

And I think that will be really helpful for listeners who are trying to understand why the changes they’ve been experiencing recently have manifested in their periods. So now I want to talk a little bit more about your journey into becoming an integrated physician. So for listeners who don’t know, can you explain what an integrative physician is?

Dani: Sure. 

So like we talked about earlier, so I’m trained as a conventional medical doctor. So I went through the normal training, but throughout my training, And it really did start with me really getting interested in stress myself. And I’ve always been interested. I was a teenager about stress and its effects. But in my third year of medical school, I went through a very challenging period and I had a harassment, a sexual harassment case with a senior physician that I was under his, his tutelage. And it was very, very stressful. And in the end, my school had to be very supportive. I end up reporting him, but it went on for a few months and I reached the point where I felt so stressed I didn’t want to go to work. I felt like I knew what my patients with depression felt like because I was just so underslept and stressed. And it was really a turning point for me. Like I knew I was interested in holistic medicine before that, but after that I got really into meditation and managing stress and really just being connected with myself on a deeper level. 

So I decided to start taking courses in natural medicine. So I took a course in Chinese traditional medicine at my university. I was one of about four students. I’d already done some some training in nutrition, some courses, but I did more of that. And then I just kind of continued on doing courses. And then when I graduated and opened my practice in family medicine, I decided because after about six months, a lot of my patients were just having all these chronic conditions that weren’t getting better with the pill alone approach. Although, of course, I’m not anti drug, I wanted to give them more. So I ended up seeking a programme in the United States called the Integrative Medicine Fellowship, which is for conventional medicine doctors to do basically a two year fellowship programme. And what we learn in that programme is basically evidence based natural medicine. So we do mind body medicines o we learn about mindfulness and BSR, mindfulness, stress reduction, meditation, everything from lifestyle, medicine to how exercise affects us, nutritional medicine. And then, of course, the other arm that that was botanical medicine, which really led me into cannabis medicine and CBD. So I went and did that and I brought that back to my practice and I started using botanicals alongside drugs with my patients. I started using dietary, lifestyle approaches ranging from the very, very simple to the more complex and using functional medicine testing, that kind of thing. So that was really my journey. I really added it because I was seeing the need with my patients and it was what I was doing myself, because I always said I would love to offer my patients the same quality of wellness and education about their health as I would want myself and I take supplements myself. I take herbals. I know I try to minimise the use of drugs. I mean, all of these things I wanted to do for myself, I really I really want to share with my patients.

And the unique thing about the integrative medicine programme in the US and now they have it at Harvard, University of Arizona, UCLA. So this is a fully board qualified speciality of conventional medicine in the US. So that was a big deal. That was this is the new speciality basically in the last few few years. When I did it in 2012, I was one of the first I think I was the first, I was one of the first in Canada to do it. And then it became a fully board qualified speciality, just like cardiology or ob gyn in 2017, it’s still not recognised as a special speciality in the UK, it’s just recognised as a special interest. But the cool thing about it is is it’s all evidence based. So I studied, I did a course at Harvard with the father of mind body medicine, Herbert Benson, and I studied with these amazing doctors who were all medical doctors, but they were using their medical expertise to really go beyond the drugs only approach. So everything in integrative medicine has evidence. That’s what’s really unique about it in terms of the natural medicine world, is it’s all really based on research and evidence. And I really like that approach as a scientist. 

Le’Nise: You mentioned that you then had been focussing on botanicals, so herbs and you mentioned CBD. So for listeners who aren’t familiar, tell tell us what CBD is. 

Dani: So when I first started getting into botanical medicine, I’ve been using botanicals in my practice for about a decade. So it wasn’t the first one that I used, certainly. But what really led me to it was a lot of my patients were in Canada were really bad chronic pain patients, my cancer patients, my palliative care patients, some of them were starting to grow their own cannabis or get cannabis oils from like a local kind of black market at the time, herbalists. And I got really curious about that because I was also, I was prescribing other botanicals alongside drug therapy, but I wasn’t using cannabis because of the stigma. 

There was no commercial products at the time to prescribe. And I had a lot of baggage around the word cannabis from my medical training. And they didn’t really even know the difference between CBD and THC as far as medical doctors, that everyone just thought cannabis bad, THC all the same. Of course, it’s not true. So when I started realising my patients were getting, were getting relief from their chronic pain and it’s helping palliate their cancer symptoms, not cure, but just helping with the palliation in their sleep and all these things. And they were coming down off their opioids like some of the other more harmful drugs. I was very, very curious.

So I started doing a lot of my own research. I started reading a lot of research papers which were really in animal models when I first started looking into it. There’s a Canadian who’s actually American but does a lot of work in Canada called Dr Ethan Russo who’s a neurologist who was doing a lot of cannabis publishing. I had a colleague in Colorado, Dr Scott Shannon, who was a psychiatrist, conventionally trained psychiatrist, and he was starting to use CBD and medical cannabis with his patients, mainly CBD. So I got really interested and I just started researching and asking my patients and thinking maybe I should be prescribing this somehow if it’s possible. So then really why I got interested in CBD specifically, it’s just one chemical in the plant, but CBD does not have any, what’s called basically does not make you high. It’s called psycho[…] properties. That’s THC. That can make you feel high or intoxicated, although it also has medicinal properties.

CBD is non intoxicating, so it does not make you feel high or stoned or impair you in any way, but it has a lot of really powerful properties. It’s an anti inflammatory. 

It helps with the gut health. And we think it may help kind of tone the endocannabinoid system, which is our natural cannabis producing system we have in our own bodies. I’ve seen it help for everything from topical use, and sometimes people find that helps with their skin conditions to really serious autoimmune disorders and epilepsy and anxiety disorders. So that’s that. I really got interested in very high CBD, low THC, medical cannabis. That was that’s what I prescribe most in my practice. 

Le’Nise: For listeners who are going into this world of CBD, so we’re recording from the UK, so THC is illegal here, but I know it’s not, so Canada where I’m from originally, it’s not. So in the UK, if they want to dive into the world of legal cannabis, where would you recommend that they start? 

Dani: It’s a really good question. So in the UK, so I’ve moved back. I’m British and Canadian, I think like you as well, right?

Le’Nise:Yeah, yeah.

Dani: So we’re very lucky. We’ve moved back about two years ago and all this cannabis legislation was changing in the UK. So currently here in the UK, if you are interested in trying CBD for a wellness indication. So just for helping with stresser, kind of mild to moderate anxiety, you can buy a CBD product from hemp over the counter and you can buy it at a health food store. So CBD from Hemp is a CBD, but it comes from a variety of the cannabis plant that is, has no very low THC or the THC has been removed. So that’s legal to buy without a prescription. If you have a medical condition, then it’s always safer to do it under the advice in the prescribing of a doctor, of course. So that would be someone who might have endometriosis, for example, or might have really severe PMDD, premenstrual dysmorphic disorder or really severe anxiety disorder or sleep disorder.

And here in the UK, I’ve actually been a lot of my work since I’ve been back, has been in the non-profit sector and the education and government sector. So I have been training a lot of the first doctors in medical cannabis. So medical cannabis, even containing THC is legal, but by prescription. So if you have, if you’re on a lot of medications, for example, if you have epilepsy, if you have endometriosis, then that’s a reason you might want to see a doctor who specialises in this type of medicine. And again, that’s what I’ve been, my focus of my work really in the UK, it’s been training doctors in this and I volunteer a lot of my time for a lot of the non-profits to help train doctors. So you would see a doctor on the GMC specialist register and they would assess you for medical cannabis and they’d probably still prescribe high CBD, low THC. But it probably the oil that they would prescribe for you probably has a little bit more THC than you would get in the shop and for pain conditions, for sleep, for a lot of different medical conditions that are quite severe, that tiny bit or a little bit more of THC actually makes it work a lot better. 

Le’Nise: Really interesting. So if you’re in the UK and you have severe, so like stage four endometriosis and you’re really struggling with the pain, so you’re saying, look at the GMC register, general medical council.

Dani: Well, you won’t find it there. So this is where it gets complicated. The best place to go for information if you’re looking for a doctor, I’m not seeing patients at the moment because I’m going on maternity leave in another four weeks. But I’ll be back. But in the meantime, I’ve trained some, I’ve worked with some lovely colleagues over here. And the best way to find them is to go to the non-profit that I vice chair in the UK. It’s called the UKmccs.org. So we’re a non-profit. All of the doctors on our council volunteer their time, including myself and our chair, Professor Mike Barnes. 

And we have a list of the clinics that prescribe medical cannabis across the U.K. There’s unfortunately, they’re all private at the moment. There’s no NHS prescriptions being written. We’re doing a lot of campaigning to try to change that. But I think, to be honest, we’re quite a ways away as far as probably a few years. Unfortunately, there’s a lot going on behind the scenes to get it available. But it’s, it’s a slow process, I have to be honest. So sadly, it’s in the private sector right now. So you have to pay privately to get the prescription and to see the doctor. 

But that the UK MCSS website has a lot of resources so people can find out who is prescribing, what clinics are in what area, all that kind of stuff. That’s the best place to go if you want medical cannabis, if you have a really severe condition. Otherwise, if you want to try CBD, it’s very safe from hemp for most people unless you’re on certain medications. Again, that would be the medical category. But in general, if you’re not, it’s very safe to try on your own and you can pick up a good quality CBD oil and just give it a shot yourself. 

Le’Nise: Actually for listeners, all the links that Dani just mentioned will be in the show notes. In your book, the CBD Bible, you talk about the importance of full spectrum CBD. And that’s something that, if you go to a shop and you want to purchase some CBD, that’s something you should be looking out for. Why is that important? 

Dani:It’s a really good question. So full spectrum CBD is basically CBD that’s been extracted from the whole plant and it’s still retains at least some of those other plant chemicals in it. So there’s things called other cannabinoids. So there’s something called CB, CB, CBDV, THCA there’s so many other plant chemicals in the plant that can be beneficial both for a wellness use and for a medical use. And they all work together in the plant because it’s called what’s, what’s called a herbal synergy or some people in cannabis know it as is the entourage effect. So I do find that full spectrum products work work the best. That being said, the the rules and the laws in the UK, around CBD in Europe are changing quite swiftly. And as of next year, it’s probably not going to be the case that you will be able to get full spectrum CBD. It’s going to be just pure CBD, which is still beneficial. But often people find they need a higher dose. So when that does happen, when those laws change, you might find that you need to up your dose or you need to look for a product that’s been kind of teched up a little bit. So there’s kind of some high tech products that are probably becoming. So they’ll probably be trying to add some of those other plant chemicals back in one at a time. So it’s never going to be the same as full spectrum. But that will probably unfortunately, again, this is something that I wasn’t happy to see happening, but it looks like it’s inevitable now. But right now, if you can get a full spectrum product, certainly I think that that does work the best at the lower doses for most people. And again, it’s not universal, this people always say, well, what’s the evidence? Well, there’s not really good big studies to prove this. There’s a few animal model studies that looks at pure CBD versus full spectrum for pain in rats. And they think the full spectrum works better at lower doses. But the evidence is weak, I have to say. But clinically, from what I’ve seen over the years, I do think it works a bit better.

Le’Nise: So a lot of listeners to the podcast will be really interested in everything we’re talking about and they’ll be interested in how they can use CBD for specific conditions that they’re facing, so we’re podcasts about periods, so let’s talk about period problems. So in the book you talk about how we can use CBD if you have period pain. And you mentioned a kind of protocol that you can use. Can you talk a little bit about that? 

Dani: Sure, yeah. So there’s a whole chapter in the book about women’s health and periods, and then there’s a whole nother chapter about sex and libido and CBD. So but to distil it down, there’s not a lot of big study, well, there’s no big studies for its use and periods. And this is something that I talk about in the book is being really kind of annoying and frustrating when I was writing this chapter is I realise even for men’s health, there’s more evidence and studies than for women’s health conditions. And unfortunately, this is something that kind of permeates medicine. A lot of women’s health conditions are understudied, although it’s changing, luckily, but it is still a phenomenon we see.

And this is definitely the case with the CBD in women’s health. That being said, CBD has a lot of antiinflammatory properties and it can help lower stress for many people. So, of course, this is definitely related to how bad periods are. It’s not, it’s not going to cure your period pain if you just start using a little bit of CBD. But a lot of people find that it makes a massive, massive difference in order for them to not even really notice their period pain anymore and everything in between. Some people find it helps them 20 percent or 30 percent. Some people find it helps them 70 percent, because everyone is different with response to the dose of CBD, because everyone’s body responds slightly in a unique way. That all being said, if you’re using it purely for period pain, but you don’t have mood issues throughout the throughout the month, it’s just the period pain that you want to target. A reasonable way to start would be starting to use a CBD oil potentially 5 days or 3 days before maybe even 3 days before your menstrual cycle starts. You have to track on an app. For example, there’s one called iPeriod that I that I use personally. And there’s lots, though. And then your period will start probably on this date. So 3 days before you can start taking your CBD and you could start with 10 or 15 milligrams, 2 – 3 times a day with a meal. And then on the days that you have bad period pain, you can really up the dose and you can experiment with that. Of course, the cost goes up when you start really upping the dose. That’s the downside.

And for acute pain, like to stop pain in the moment, THC tends to work better. So that’s why if you have really bad period pain, sometimes adding a little bit of THC from, say, a prescription cannabis medicine is going to be a lot more effective for you because CBD is more, it helps with more of the chronic anti inflammatory anti stress effect. And some people do find that it helps their period pain more acutely. But it’s not the norm, I would say. 

Le’Nise: You mentioned it briefly, but I just want to dive into this a little bit more, that CBD is not a cure all. What would you say to someone who’s saying, who would say to I just if I take CBD is going to fix all of my period problems, what would you say to them instead? 

Dani: I see CBD as an amazing botanical medicine tool, but unfortunately, just like anything in botanical medicine or anything in medicine in general, either Western medicine or natural medicine, there is no cure all solution. CBD does, however, do a lot of different things in the body because this the system that we have, this endocannabinoid system, basically we make our own cannabis like chemicals. It affects everything from eating, sleeping, relaxing, stress relief, immune function. So because the system does so much stuff, CBD can do a lot of things too, because it works on this system and other related systems in the brain, in the body. So it can do a lot of different jobs in the brain, in the body. But certainly nothing is a quick fix or cure all. I always tell my patients in integrative medicine, run the other way if someone says they’re going to just give you something and all your problems are going to go away the next day from taking this one bottle of anything. It’s just unfortunately not the way we work because we’re really complex. So I use it as alongside other herbals, alongside stress reduction techniques, alongside integrative medicine and oftentimes alongside drugs too. Western medicine, drugs. So that’s how I see it fitting in. And the medical side, of the wellness side, you probably know you might not need any drugs, but you might still need some help and some help with stress reduction. 

Le’Nise: OK, that’s really interesting. So you now your book has come out, the CBD Bible. Talk a little bit as we close out the show about what prompted you to write the book and what you want readers to get out of it.

Dani: Sure. So this book is really kind of a labour of love of the last 10 years of my experience as an integrative medicine doctor in botanical medicine and then in cannabis medicine. I’ve treated thousands of patients with CBD and medical cannabis, and then I’ve trained a lot of doctors. So I basically wanted to write this because there’s a lot of academic books out there for kind of scientists about CBD and cannabis. And then there’s a lot of lay books that talk about it kind of on a very kind of superficial level. But I didn’t feel like there was a book out there that someone could pick up and flip to the sleep section or flip to the period section and find out how to actually use that in all the nitty gritty details.

So I just wanted to kind of, I guess, spill my guts with all of my secrets and tips that I have found over the years doing this for years and years and years. So people could feel empowered because I think that’s for me, integrative medicine, that’s what it’s all about, is empowering my patients. I think when you take the drugs only approach in Western medicine alone, people can feel really unempowered and they, they just kind of lose their sense of if they can actually help their body rebalance and their internal sense of hope. And that’s where I see integrative medicine being so powerful because there’s so much we can do. You might not be able to cure chronic disease, but we can improve it so much with these tools. And CBD is one of them. So in the book we talk about CBD, but not just CBD, also medical cannabis and all the other things in the plant to stay that way. If you want to use it on the medical side, you know how to talk to your doctor about it because they might not know. They might be open to prescribing it to you, but you might have to educate them on how. So there’s a whole section on every problem on that side of it, too, and then also in CBD wellness. So things you can pick up from the shop yourself and start today and then just how to monitor what you’re trying to, what you’re trying to alleviate and being kind of your own expert. 

Le’Nise: It’s a great book and I would encourage anyone who’s curious about CBD to pick it up. It’s really easy to access and there’s just it’s just packed full of amazing information. So if listeners come away from this podcast with one thought or one piece of information, what would you want that to be? 

Dani:Well, I think CBD is not going anywhere. I think it’s a wellness, it’s a wellness trend in some cases. But I think it’s also kind of a revolution in botanical medicine. So I would say if you if you’re having any of these period problems, in addition to managing your stress and looking at your diet and your lifestyle as far as a single botanical that I would consider, including, it would probably be CBD. So you can check it out, you can just go to a reputable company. There’s a whole section of the book on how to pick a CBD oil as well, not by brand, but by what’s actually in it. And just see for yourself and just do what you do with any kind of wellness routine, just track how you’re feeling. I have a whole section there about tracking your symptoms and tracking how you’re feeling. And I think the messages botanical medicine is about empowering yourself, about your health and wellness, taking control back. 

And that’s where I see CBD being a part of it.

Le’Nise: What a great message to empower yourself. I love that. And I know listeners will too. Thank you so much for coming on the show. If listeners want to buy the book, where can they grab a copy? 

Dani: So it’s in many bookstores, big and small, but because of COVID, that’s not been as possible for many booksellers. So Amazon. So if you go on Amazon, it’s it’s there. If you go to my Instagram, I have a link to it. So should be pretty easy to find. 

Le’Nise: And where can listeners find out more about you? 

Dani: So Instagram, I’m @drdanigordon and there’s a link there to my blog and I post videos there, educational videos and all the information about upcoming talks I’m doing and all that jazz. 

Le’Nise: Brilliant. Thank you so much. 

Dani: Thanks so much for having me. 

Period Story Podcast, Episode 37: Lee Nguni, You Really Have To Trust And Believe What Your Body Is Telling You

I can’t wait for you all to hear my powerful conversation with Lee Nguni, a yoga teacher and medical herbalist in training. I’m so grateful to Lee for sharing her 10 year journey to getting an endometriosis diagnosis, how she was forced to learn how to advocate for herself with healthcare professionals, the medical gaslighting she had to deal with and of course, the story of her first period.

Lee says that she was very excited to get her period because she felt that it would be one of the defining moments of adolescence and ultimately, becoming a grown up. Lee shared that because the women in her family had had difficult periods, she expected that that would be her experience too.

In her 20s, Lee’s periods started to become much more painful and began to affect her quality of life. She said that each time she went to the doctor, they were very dismissive, tell her that what she was experiencing was just part of being a woman and telling her to go onto hormonal contraception.

Lee started to investigate alternative forms of healing and began to educate herself on what could be happening to her as a way of advocating for herself with healthcare professionals. Listen to hear the approach Lee finally had to take in order for her doctors to take what she was telling them seriously.

After 10 years (!!!), Lee finally had a laparoscopy that diagnosed her with stage 4 endometriosis. Lee shares the medical gaslighting she experienced and what she happened after her most recent surgery.

Lee spoke really frankly about her experiences and says that doctors need work more collaboratively with patients in order to bring about the ideal result. Lee says that we really have to trust and believe what our body, heart and mind are telling us and that textbook medical knowledge can never undercut personal experience. Thank you so much, Lee!

Get in touch with Lee:

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LEE’S BIO

Lee is a yoga teacher, medical herbalist in training and a self described explorer of healing landscapes and tradition. 

She believes in the transformative power of movement as medicine and is inspired to share nourishing and restorative practises, as a means to empower individual and communal vitality, through explorations of mind / body, with the help of  the yogic tradition and our often neglected herbal heritage.

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SHOW TRANSCRIPT

Le’Nise: Welcome to the show. I’m really excited to have you on the show because I know that you have quite a story to tell us and it’s an ongoing journey for you. So let’s get into it, if you could tell us the story of your very first period. 

Lee: So my very first period, I was I think I must have been 12 or. Yeah, I think I was 12. And for me, I already felt like I was the last person on Earth to get a period. And what was so frustrating about it was I’ve been waiting for it since I was like since I found out what they were, which was maybe when I was like seven or eight, I was one of those little girls who always maybe knew a little bit more than everybody else. 

I read a lot and I was really excited for everything that comes along with getting older, going through puberty. And I felt like getting your period was one of, if not the biggest defining moments of your moving into adolescence and ultimately becoming a grown up, which was something I was super excited to do. So at the time I lived with my dad, I grew up with my dad and I’m the only girl in my family. So it was just me and my brothers and I lived with my dad and I’d been waiting and waiting and waiting to get this period. And I felt like everybody else at school had one. And I think I probably even lied that I already had it. 

So I was like, where is it? 

And when it finally came, it was a bit of a. I really expected that I would know that it was here and it just wasn’t what I expected at all. So I and a few days prior, basically before it actually came, every single time I had any kind of stomach disturbance, be it nausea, be it like any kind of stomach issue at all, I’d be like, oh, my God, is this it? So a few days before, I had a stomach pain that I’d never kind of had before. And at this time, for whatever reason, it didn’t occur to me that this could be it. And that kind of happened for a few days. And then on the day it actually came, I got up and I went to the bathroom to use the toilet. And I remember like pulling my pants down to have a wee. And I was like, oh, my goodness, because it also didn’t look like blood. It looked like, like a brown discharge. So I was like, is this it? Is this not it? And I didn’t live with my mother. There wasn’t a woman in the house for me to confirm with. And this is before the Internet was just like a thing that everybody had in their houses. We had the Internet, but it was dial up and it was like a whole production. You had to convince somebody to get off the phone for you to get on the Internet. I couldn’t just, like, grab my phone and quickly Google what does a first period look like? So I was like having this moment where I was like, very excited, like, oh, my God, I think this is a period, but also very underwhelmed because I was like, but it doesn’t look like a period and it really just doesn’t feel like a period. And who can confirm for me? And we didn’t have, we had like a mobile phone, but this is ages ago. So it was like a mobile phone that I shared with my older brother and my younger brother. And I remember having to like, first thing because it was summer holidays, having to go into my older brother’s room first thing in the morning and be like, I really need the phone, please give me the phone. And he was like, “Why?” I and I had to tell him, because I think I’m having my period, but I don’t know. And then he was like also really like, “how do we find out? What are we going to do? Where can we look?” And trying to find like books that maybe had information about it going through this whole, like, investigative process. Twelve year old me and my 14 year old brother trying to do the investigative work. And then in the end, we decided that we would ring an aunty of mine because my dad was at work and I think I tried to ring him anyway, but I don’t think I was able to get a hold of him. So in the end, we decided to bring an aunty of mine and I explained everything to her. And she was like, “Yeah, I guess it sounds like this is it.” But there was no like nobody else seemed excited about it the way that I was excited about it, so that was a little bit disappointing to me. I think my my aunt phoned my dad to explain to him that I’d started my period and he came home and he looked a little bit freaked out, but nobody, like, celebrated it. And I kind of always felt like maybe if I lived with my mom, she would have been like, I don’t know, did other people have period parties?

I felt like everybody else was having like these huge celebrations and welcoming into, like being a woman that I didn’t have. But I was just always really excited to get it. So maybe in my mind I made it this bigger thing than it actually was going to ever be. 

Le’Nise: Well, you know, you’re not you’re you’re you’re definitely not alone in your period, not really being celebrated, because if I think about the people that I’ve spoken to on the show. I’d say probably about one percent of the women had some sort of celebration and some of the celebrations they were happy about, like it was like a cake or maybe a little party or. And the others were not happy. They were really embarrassed. But their mom or their auntie or whoever the female figure was in their life really wanted to make a big, a big celebration of it. So, yeah, I don’t think it’s as I feel like it might not be as common as perhaps it may be used to be. But I think it should be a thing because it’s a really momentous occasion. 

Lee: This is what I’ve always kind of felt about it. And I think that I, I used to read a lot of my my mother’s Cosmo magazines when I was really young, like when I was like from basically when I could read, I was always in my mom’s magazines and reading about women’s things. And my mother has six sisters, so there’s seven girls in her family. And quite often when my parents were living together, quite often I had lots of aunties in the house and whenever anybody had a period, they were always talking about it as though it was a difficult thing, like people would be sick from their periods, et cetera, but I always had this feeling that it’s this amazing experience and it is difficult. But I guess that’s part of being a woman and even that aspect of it being difficult, I found something to be, like it means that you are strong and you’re special and you’re like kick arse and guys can’t do this, but women can. And I always just thought it was this really exciting thing. And it’s only as I got older and only when I started having conversations with other girls, like the girls at school, nobody had the same kind of excitement about it that I had. 

So when nobody wanted to really celebrate the fact that I finally had one, I was a bit disappointed.

Le’Nise: I want to go back to what you were saying about how you thought it was this amazing thing, but you knew it was going to be difficult, but that difficulty kind of imbued it with strength. And once you got your period, did you feel, you still feel like it was this amazing thing? 

Lee: Yes. So once I actually got my period, I every time I got it, I always felt really, it just reinforced to me, like how amazing my body is. 

And I was always like, ‘wow, I have a period’, like the novelty of having it did not wear off at all until maybe I think when I actually entered my late 20s, that’s when I was a bit like, OK, this is like this is excessive. Does it have to be every month? Does it have to be this long? But for a very long time. 

Just it showing up each month would be like, oh, wow, it’s back and I’m, I’m out here having a period. Amazing.

Le’Nise: So what happened in your 20s that then changed your perception of your period away from being something amazing? 

Lee: So a couple, a few things happened. So when I in my teens, my period was, it was pretty run of the mill. And actually it’s funny, because even the fact that it was pretty like easy going was something I was a bit underwhelmed by, because I was used to people having these stories about, ‘oh, my God. And when I got my period, I’m so sick that I throw up and it’s so heavy and it’s it’s so big and it’s so that.’ 

And I definitely had cramps, but they weren’t excessive. And it wasn’t something where I needed to to take painkillers. I’m pretty sure that quite often I didn’t. And then the period itself was not heavy. It was fine. And I kind of then also felt a little bit underwhelmed by that because, like I said, my understanding was that everybody was having these, like, really intense, crazy experiences. 

But when I came into my early 20s, that started to shift for me and that suddenly the period became definitely more painful. 

And I also became, I was on, I started using the contraceptive patch and actually it gave me a little bit more understanding of what my body was doing. So once I started using the contraceptive patch, it was my first experience of hormonal contraception. I noticed that a monthly pain that I would get, which I never could figure out what it was, it just disappeared. And I didn’t, I got really curious about why that suddenly happened once I was on contraception. And that led me to do a little bit more investigation and realised that actually that pain that I would get that I didn’t understand before was mid cycle pain, ovulation, pain. And initially I was, actually unsettled me initially, but not enough to make me feel like, ‘oh, wow, I don’t want to continue using this hormonal method of contraception.’ And the breakthrough, the break bleed that I would get every time I took one of the patches off for the week that you’re supposed to take, it was fine. It was like five days, barely anything. It was great. 

But after a year of using the patch, I just couldn’t get the niggling feeling of, ‘OK, you’re not having this pain that you always had every month anymore because you’re not ovulating.’ And the fact that I was stopping my body from doing that process really unsettled me, so after a year, I had decided to stop using the patch. And then when my period came back. It came back. And I don’t know if I’d forgotten what had been like before, but it came back and I felt like it had a different quality to it. I definitely experienced more pain during and it wasn’t as heavy, but I was really quite struck by how much pain I was experiencing. And I thought that was because my hormones were rebalancing. And again, it was something that kind of made me feel a bit not great about hormonal contraception because I’d notice that it had stopped my body from doing a natural process that I know it would do it would that would have ordinarily occurred. And also, I felt like if I’m suddenly having a different period experience because potentially my hormones might be out of whack, I didn’t, that really unsettled me as well. And then this kind of persisted. The change in the quality to the period kind of persisted. 

And I know now that it’s obviously not, it’s not as a result of being on the patch. I think it was just the beginnings of me starting to see the physical manifestations of the endometriosis that I have. So from my early 20s, my period just became increasingly more painful and increasingly more heavy. And it was just, just frustrating because it was affecting my quality of, my quality of life, like I couldn’t concentrate at work or I couldn’t concentrate at uni if I was having cramps and, you know, people used to talk to me about my understanding of periods to begin with was that they were difficult, but nobody had ever positioned it in terms of, it will actually potentially stop you from doing the things that you want to do. I’ve heard people say, “oh, my period cramps are so bad that I throw up or my period is so heavy that I bleed for like two weeks”, but I’d never heard anyone say, but like, sometimes I can’t get out of bed. I don’t have any energy or I feel like my brain is really foggy and it might be related to my period or, you know, I don’t think I can go to school today or I don’t think I can go to work. No one had ever said anything like that to me. So when I was starting to experience that with my own period, I was a bit like, what is actually, what is actually going on.

And I’d go to the doctor and the doctor was really dismissive. And again, very much like, well, this is part of being a woman. And every every suggestion was always, have you tried this? Etc., etc., contraception. That was always the go to. And because I’d had the experience where I had understood, where I gained understanding into an aspect of hormonal contraception that unsettled me and I was not interested in going on any further hormonal contraception. My, my attitude to that immediately made them even more dismissive of me because it felt like, because it seemed like I guess to them, well, you don’t want to do this thing that we’re offering you that can help you, so you clearly don’t care that much. Yeah, and it just became like an ongoing issue for me, I’d be going to the doctor to, to talk about my period because I just felt like it. OK, I get that it’s a difficult thing, but surely it shouldn’t be this difficult and it gets, it’s getting worse and it surely can’t be the only thing that the only way to help me is to put me on like a hormonal contraception that’s going to stop my body, that’s going to prevent ovulation. That surely can’t be the only thing. And it doesn’t feel like anybody was interested in having conversations around what the pathophysiology was. And they were more interested in addressing what the symptoms were. And that as well didn’t make sense to me, because surely you should be interested in understanding why something is taking place, not just trying to block the physical manifestations of which it’s presenting. Surely there should be an interest in investigating what the root issue is. And I didn’t feel like anybody was interested. And it was such a discombobulating experience because I really felt isolated, like I was out here experiencing this thing that, that maybe I was even making up because nobody seemed to experience, nobody seemed to understand, like it didn’t seem as serious to anybody else as it seems to me. 

Le’Nise: I want to go back to what you were saying about, you said in the very beginning that you were amazed. You thought periods were amazing, but you knew that they were difficult. And that was the experience that you saw from the women in your life, that they had had difficult periods. And I wonder if as you were going through your mid 20s, through your 20s and you were, your period started to get more and more difficult that I wonder if there was some of almost a sense of stoicism because you expected them to be difficult. So you put up with perhaps more than you should have. 

Lee: Oh, absolutely. Like, the messaging that I got growing up was very much your period is going to be difficult, but almost like that is a badge of honour. And it’s not like I remember my mother would always say, oh, I always used to have terrible periods when I was growing up. 

My periods were terrible, they were awful. And then my other auntie would say, yeah, they’re horrendous. And they’d almost be in competition with each other about how bad the like whose period was. And like I said, I have six aunties on my mom’s side, so you can imagine like six women going back and forth about how their period is worse because it does this. 

But they were saying it almost like there was a little bit of pride in it. Like they it was like a badge of honour. And so when mine was difficult, finally difficult, I think that exactly like you said, I probably tolerated a lot more of it than I should have done initially because I, I thought, this is what you expect, like this is what it’s supposed to be. And it’s only when it became increasingly difficult to function within the realms of my ordinary life that I realised that, no, I, this really, really can’t be it. And I actually need to get some sort of help, some kind of relief, because my quality of life is severely becoming impeded. And I think. I remember even, every time I talk to anybody about, not even doctors, but just like friends or whatever to say, oh my gosh, my period, they again jumped to being like, oh, but mine is like this. 

And it becomes almost like a competition of how our periods are are really awful. 

But I was actually just looking for someone to confirm to me that it’s not supposed to be like this awful. 

Le’Nise: You also said that you spoke to medical professionals, doctors who felt you felt like they weren’t getting to the root cause they were just kind of putting, pushing some sort of pharmaceutical solution on you. So after you spoke to these doctors and you felt that this wasn’t the route that you wanted to take because of your own, what you called an unsettling experience of being on the contraceptive patch, what did you do next? 

Lee: So, I mean, I’ve always been somebody who likes to read and holistic or I mean, we call them alternative forms of medicine, but, you know, they’re just, they’re medicine in their own right. Holistic modalities of healing have always been a part of my life because growing up when I went to visit my grandma in Zambia, if you had a sore stomach, if you were nauseous, she would go outside and take leaves off her her guava tree and boil them for you to drink. She always had, like, remedies that seemed super unconventional, that were rooted in, you know, plant medicine to address things. 

And so I started looking into alternative forms of of healing or like that I could maybe engage in that, could support my my my mental health. And so it started with me trying to understand different supplements, but then very quickly started moving into trying to understand different forms of plant medicine that might be beneficial, and I wasn’t able to to engage with anything that changed the quality of the period in terms of making it less heavy. But there were definitely things that changed the experience in that I was more able to deal with the pain and also with the the energy dips that I would experience because I bleed so heavily and also the mood dips that I would experience. And that was through my own sort of experimentations with diet and herbs and and, you know, including different kinds of supplements into my diet that nobody else had kind of encouraged me to do or explained was a possibility for me. And which is how which is what led me into deciding to actually further my understanding and really try and delve a little deeper into the world of herbal medicine and alternative therapies that led me on the path that I am currently studying herbalism. 

Le’Nise: Before we talk about the herbalism, I want to talk about that because I find the whole space really fascinating. 

I want to talk more about the endometriosis and the diagnosis. How long did it take from the point where your period started getting really painful to you actually getting a formal diagnosis? 

Lee: It was over 10 years, it was over 10 years. 

Yeah, I started going to the doctor concerned about my period when I think when I was 20. 

Yeah, because I had my serious boyfriend then and I’d come off of the patch, even though I still had this serious boyfriend. I was 20. And I started going to the doctor about my period then, but I didn’t get formal confirmation, even though I was certain. I didn’t get formal confirmation until I had my first lap[aroscopy] when I was 30. And actually, it wasn’t the the reason that I was able to get that further level of enquiry was not on the basis of my period. So what happened was that I had this increasingly difficult period and everyone would say to me, all the doctors would say, “oh, have you tried this contraception? Or we can give you these painkillers. But unfortunately, it’s just the thing that some women go through.” But in addition to that, I noticed, because after my experience of the patch, I just became very much more aware of the different things that that my body was doing. 

And I think that that was really helpful for me being able to put together a picture of what was going on and I would use that picture to to try and present it to the health care professionals, and they weren’t taking advantage of the investigations that I was doing by myself.

So in addition to having this difficult period, I also noticed that every time I was on my period, I’d have really painful bowel movements. But it was only when I was on my period and further investigation led me to find that actually that’s quite common for women with endometriosis. If you have endometriosis that is located around your, your colon or whatever, if you have deposits of endometriosis around there, you’ll find that same that same pain is described. And then additionally, I was constantly having these blood tests that would show that, they would say that my iron levels were either low or borderline, and that was to do with obviously me bleeding so heavily. And when I put the pain, the, the heaviness and that pain on opening my bowels together, I was really getting this picture of endometriosis based on what I was finding in books and on the Internet. But the thing that made them actually finally want to do further investigation was increasingly I was finding intercourse painful. And so I was going to the doctor and I had to change tact. And I realised very quickly that actually, I have to change tact. And I can’t say anymore that my period is an issue because they’re not interested in that. I have to go in and tell them that my main thing is that sex is very painful for me. And that should be the thing that I’m pushing because I already know now after, like going to the doctor for the past three years that they’re not interested in the period being difficulty. But if I go in maybe and I tell them that actually sex is becoming increasingly impossible for me, maybe they’re going to care more. So that became the thing that I was constantly going to the doctor to complain about. And initially it wasn’t that much more helpful because initially they weren’t trying to understand the quality of the pain that I was explaining to them. They would try and position it as, oh, do you maybe have anxiety around sexual intercourse? And I was like, not originally, but increasingly. Yes, because it is increasingly becoming something that is difficult to enjoy. 

And so then they’d be like, oh, maybe you have vaginismus. And I said, no, that’s that’s I’ve looked into what the symptoms of that are and how it manifests. 

And that is not it, I know that’s not it, and what it was, was collision dyspareunia. So pain on the cervix every time there was like contact with anything be it a speculum, a penis, a finger, pain on the cervix collision dyspareunia. 

And I would even give them the terminology that I found in books. And they were just, again, quite dismissive. But I was persistent. And I think that I, I was really persistent. And even though they were dismissive, it was not in the way that they were dismissive about the period. So I was really persistent. I went through so many different doctors and so many different suggestions as to how I should approach it. One person referred me to a psychotherapist because they thought that maybe it was a psychological manifestation of, it was a sort of physical manifestation of a psychological issue, which it wasn’t, which is actually very insulting. 

But I just persisted and kept on saying, well, there’s this thing happening and it’s only towards the end when I found somebody who was prepared to refer me further to a specialist gynaecologist. 

When I got to the specialist gynaecologist, I said to him, “So there’s this thing happening with the pain of intercourse. But additionally, I also experience pain, voiding my bowels when I’m on my period. And I also have very difficult periods that are very heavy and very long and leave me constantly with very low or borderline levels of iron.” And I thought that positioning all of that to him, giving him the full picture would maybe make him more, he’d immediately understand that clearly there’s an underlying pathology, but I think. I mean, I don’t know, but my understanding is that the NHS and its limitations can sometimes make it more difficult for, for doctors to practise medicine in the way that they want to practise medicine because they are limited in terms of, I guess, what they’re able to to offer just based on their own funding and things like that. 

So initially he said to me, we’ll go for a scan, even though as a specialist gynaecologist, he would know that there’s no, a scan and an ultrasound scan is not a definitive way to diagnose endometriosis. It can show perhaps manifestations of your physiology that might suggest the presence of endometriosis, endometriosis, so, for example, you might have an ultrasound scan and the technician notes that there’s very little movement in your womb and that little movement could be due to the fact that you have endometriosis that has sort of fused your uterus to other structures, meaning that it’s less mobile. That could be something that’s picked up on the scan. But the actual presence of the endometriosis itself, a scan can’t do that.

So I think he sent me for a scan to kind of shut me up and to say, oh, well, look, we care enough to send you for a scan. But I’ve had scans before, and every time I’ve had a scan it had come back as nothing and initially back in the day that used to really stress me out, because I would think, well, then what’s wrong with me until I did a little bit more reading myself and found out that actually, like I said, a scan is not a definitive way to identify endometriosis, so I knew that, like, if he sends me for the scan, probably nothing is going to come up because I had scans before and they’d always say, Oh, but there’s lots of movement in your womb. It moves really, really well. And I don’t see anything to suggest that you have endometriosis. But I thought that if I just keep on just pushing and pushing and pushing and pushing, finally, I mean, I’ve got to this point where I now have a specialist gynaecologist, so if I keep pushing and pushing or pushing, maybe I’ll get to the point where some they’ll finally just take it a little bit more serious, where they’ll get bored of me coming or something and they’ll just do whatever investigations that they need to do, whether or not it’s something that they they they deem costly or not, they’ll finally just do it.

So I went to the specialist gynaecologist. I went for a scan. It came up as nothing. I kept going back to the specialist gynaecologist to complain about my condition deteriorating even further. And finally, he was like, “oh, well, I’m going to refer you to a colleague of mine at UCLH, who is a consultant who deals specifically with women’s reproductive health, in particular endometriosis, because they have a specialist endometriosis unit at UCLH. And I feel like before I even got there, the, my gynaecologist had positioned it to this consultant in a way that was maybe a little bit dismissive because I had my first appointment with the consultant and we discussed my case. And after everything that I spoke about, everything I told him, he was still a bit like, “Well, you know, you’ve had like four scans at UCLH. And our scanning technology is actually very high tech and our scanning technicians are very well trained. So if they haven’t found anything, I think that it’s unlikely that you have endometriosis. But if you want, we can do a laparoscopy if you want. But bear in mind, a laparoscopy is a surgery. So, you know, but I doubt that we’ll find anything because like I said, you’ve already had all these scans and our technology here is top notch technicians here are really trained to find this kind of thing. So the only thing we have found is that your uterus is tilted, so you have a retrograded uterus.”

And I knew this from like every time I had a smear test, they’d struggle to find the cervix because my uterus, my cervix is tilted because my uterus is tilted. Now, that’s something that they will tell you if you go to the doctor, they’ll tell you, oh, 20 percent of women have that. It’s just something that happens. Nobody is actually ever interested in being like. But why is that? It’s not just something that happens. Why is that something that happens? What I discovered for myself is after I finally had my first lap[aroscopy] is that my uterus was retrofitted because my uterus, my vagina and my colon had all my uterus, my cervix and my colon had fused together because of endometrial tissue and that mispositioned, misaligned my uterus. So this whole time, like for 10 years, everyone was saying to me, “oh, you know, your uterus, your cervixes is, your uterus is retroverted, your cervix tilts up into their right. And that’s just something that happens to 20 percent of women. There’s no reason for it. It just happens.” 

But in my mind, I knew that it could that couldn’t be the case. It couldn’t just be coincidental that I have all of these issues surrounding menstrual health. And additionally, I have a uterus that just happens to be retroverted. Like, I have a cervix that tilts up to the right, but at the same time, the same cervix is the cause of a lot of discomfort for me and intercourse and my periods also difficult, etc., etc. I knew that it couldn’t just be coincidental, but for whatever reason, that did not seem to be the case for the health care professionals that I was seeing. 

Le’Nise: Wow. So, I mean, there was so much in there. I think there’s medical gaslighting. There is the fight, the persistence that you had to have in order to get this diagnosis, to actually get a laparoscopy. There is the fact that you had to learn medical language in order to be able to have a conversation with these doctors who still didn’t believe you. 

I mean, I want to say this isn’t something I hear a lot, but it’s something I hear all the time. It’s and it infuriates me every single time I hear it, because you, you shouldn’t have had to have fought for ten years for something that you knew was happening to your body. Oh, my God. It’s just it’s. Wow. 

But for listeners who are going through the same thing and who are thinking, ‘OK, I’m on this journey. I’ve had the scans. I know I have endometriosis.’ Talk about the process of having a laparoscopy because this isn’t just minor surgery. This is you know, you, talk about what it is and the fact that this is used as an endometriosis diagnostic tool. 

Lee: So the laparoscopy is the only definitive way to confirm the presence of endometriosis, and it’s basically a surgery, a keyhole surgery in which they go in through like a couple of incisions in your in your bellybutton and maybe to the side or a little bit underneath your belly button and with a camera and with some other little tools to move your stuff around. And it’s basically the only way that they can really have a look inside and confirm. Because endometriosis, it can be very small deposits of endometriosis, but the amount of it doesn’t necessarily always correlate with the experience that you’re having. You know, you can they can enter it and find like huge deposits of endometriosis and the person actually not be experiencing that much of a difficulty in their, their lives. Or they can go in and find like little tiny deposits of endometriosis. And actually the person is experiencing a really difficult time. So the amount of it doesn’t always correlate with the actual experience that you’re having. But the nature of endometriosis is so that it’s endometrial tissue, tissue from your womb that is, I want to say displaced, but basically starts to appear in sites outside of your womb. And so when your womb is going through the various changes that it goes through throughout your monthly cycle, the tissue that is not in your womb but is womb tissue is responding in exactly the same way. So when it comes to a point where your womb lining is now shedding and it’s bleeding, you have your endometrial tissue, which is this womb tissue that’s appearing in places outside of your womb. It could be on your ovaries, it could be behind your cervix. It could be on your colon. That tissue is also trying to shed as well. So it’s also bleeding, but there is nowhere for that blood to go because it doesn’t have the same exit point that the tissue in your womb would have. 

It can’t just exit through your cervix because it’s floating, it’s placed wherever it is outside of the uterus. So it’s trying to bleed and the blood has nowhere to go. So it starts to accumulate. And what you find is it starts to become scar tissue. You start to get adhesions. And your scar tissue if it’s positioned where there’s other organs, which is likely the case because everything is in there all closely together, the scar tissue can start to stick to other organs, which is why a lot of doctors, when they do send you for these scans, they’re looking for this sort of immobility that I said, because if you have a lot of endometriosis, you have a lot of adhesions, which means a lot of sticking to other organs. 

And obviously that goes in grades so you can have, like scar tissue that is newly formed, but then over the years, if you’re constantly bleeding, it’s constantly going nowhere and the scar tissue is being formed know it starts to become a more mature scar tissue. It starts to become larger. It becomes a more pervasive pathology. 

And it just means that, you know, the interventions required become a lot more severe or a lot more difficult, which is why it’s so important for people to be taking the time to really listen and do the investigations that are necessary as early as possible, because it’s a progressive, it’s a progressive condition. And when they finally gave me the lap[aroscopy], I remember I remember on the morning of the surgery, the consultant said to me, “OK, so we’re going to go in and we’re going to go and have a look. But like I said, you probably won’t have anything. And actually, if there is anything, it’ll probably be really small and we’ll just, like, cut it out and you’ll be fine.” He absolutely said exactly that to me the morning of my surgery.

And then I was waking up in the recovery room a few hours later with a whole team of doctors surrounding my bed. And I was dizzy and I was woozy and my mind was not altogether. And I have this whole team of doctors surrounding my bed and they’re saying to me, “OK, so it wasn’t what we thought it was going to be. We weren’t able to do anything at this time because actually the amount of endometriosis that you have is very severe. And what we’ve discovered is that it’s stuck in the back of your cervix, your uterus and your colon together. And so it’s actually, you’re at a point where we would grade it a stage four and we can’t do anything about it right now because it’s a very specialised surgery that we need to perform to be able to remove the endometriosis and to safely separate your uterus, your cervix and your colon.”

And that’s like such a bombshell when you’re working, waking up from surgery, that is such a bombshell to hear. And even after that, when I was awake, I was still not understanding, like, how is this possible? Because you said to me that it was probably not going to be anything. And if it was anything, it was going to be really small bits. And now I’ve woken up to actually it’s like around the worst that it can be like. How is it possible that you guys didn’t care that much and that it get to this this bad. I just couldn’t believe it. And also the fact that nobody is prepared to, like, hold their hands up and be like, oh, we kind of dropped the ball here and we’re sorry because this is not just a random physiology that’s like taking place in the realms of like just some alternate dimension, it’s something that’s actually happening right now here to an actual person. And the implications of this directly affect my life and have been affecting my life for the last decade. It’s not good enough to, to be so dismissive. It’s not good enough to find out that actually for a long time, you guys have been making a huge error. And then for nobody to want to take responsibility for it, that’s it’s just not good enough. And I don’t mean responsibility in terms of like compensation, but just for someone to be able to be like, “we should’ve listened a little bit more or we’re sorry that this happened to you.” 

Le’Nise: And did you ever challenge them? I know waking up from surgery and you’re not in the right state to be able to push back, but once you recovered and were you able to say to them, you know, “what happened to you? You said that I didn’t, you know, it wasn’t that severe, that you were just very dismissive.” 

Lee: Yeah, so, yeah, so after the surgery, I woke up, I had that whole team of doctors, they said that it was stage four and they couldn’t do anything then and then because it was a specialised surgery. And they also told me there and then that they would need to induce menopause before they could carry on and do the next surgery that would be required. So after I had had time to kind of digest that, I had another, I had another appointment with the consultant. And I was really quite angry. But I think I was, I had the benefit of that I had years of really reading up and trying to come to understand this pathology and the pathophysiology related to it. And so I really wanted to understand exactly like you said, like how. 

What happened? How did you guys drop the ball so badly on this? And like I said, I just didn’t feel like there was any kind of accountability at all. The consultant said to me, “well, you know, these things happen. You know, remember, like I said, you had four scans here at UCLH. And our scan technology is actually some of the best scan technology in the world. And our scan technicians are some of the best scan technicians that you can get and they couldn’t find anything.  So for us, we really thought that maybe, you know, this wouldn’t, the result that you had, wouldn’t be the case. And we’re just as shocked as you are” and just really no accountability, regardless.

And then there was the issue of me saying, “well, you’ve kind of dropped a bombshell on me and that it’s as severe as it is. And for me to progress further that you, I need to induce menopause and nobody has, you just said that. But nobody’s explained to me like, what are the implications around that? And from doing my own research, I know that if I stay on the drugs that you are going to give me to induce the menopause, if I’m on them for longer than six months, that has negative implications for things like bone density, which is a real issue because it literally is the minerals from your bones and then osteoporosis becomes an issue and nobody’s even thinking or decided to mention that to me, you know, you’re talking about you want to look at surgery in six months time, but I have personal experience of surgeries being pushed out. So if this surgery is supposed to be in six months time and I’m supposed to be in a menopausal state for six months, if it gets pushed out, that means that I have to continue these drugs for even longer. And what are the implications of that for my, my health long term?”

And I think I was really lucky in that I’m somebody who really likes to understand and know things. So I had been doing this reading, I had been doing this research. And because I had come in and challenged that, they decided to bring the surgery earlier. They scheduled it for three months time. And actually what I said, it did get pushed out by a month. So if I had, you know, settled for the six months that they just told me without any explanation of what it looks like or what the side effects are or what could the potential dangers of being on this medicine to induce menopause that they were going to give me, I could have been on it for much longer and then years down the line, be suffering with osteoporosis and trying to understand, well, how did this happen to me? I eat healthy, I do yoga, blah, blah, blah. And maybe nobody would hold their hands up and say, well, actually, do you remember that time when you were taking that that menopause drug? That is why. And I think that that’s so troubling because I know that there must be a number of women out there who are being told these are the protocols that you have to engage in in order for us to do X, Y and Z, but not with any understanding as to what the implications of that actually is for their health in the longer in a wider sense. 

Le’Nise: I want to then go forward to when you had the surgery. Can you talk about the outcome of the second surgery that you had? 

Lee: So the second surgery that I had, they were able to they basically had to remove a section of the colon while they were removing the endometriosis. And they were able to do that successfully with minimal disruption to the other faculties of, of my body. So there was a risk, quite a large risk of having to have a stoma, potentially temporarily, at least post surgery, because they needed to remove quite a bit of colon and the healing sometimes without wanting to, to put too much strain on the rest of the colon while it was healing, the best thing to do is give a stoma, but luckily they were able to do that without having to, to do anything else. So the surgery went well. There were still some deposits of endometriosis that needed to be removed, which was done in the later laparoscopy. But the, it was more the the I think the most difficult part of it for me was the run up to it because I had not been on any kind of hormonal intervention for over 10 years, and then suddenly I was in menopause.

And the side effects, the hot flashes, the very crippling lows and just the lack of energy, the brain fog, the insomnia, all of those things were really difficult to deal with. And they don’t just go away once you have the surgery. So there’s a long period afterwards as well. Even when your period comes back, it’s not, it’s not immediately everything is is back to normal. I think it’s been a year and a half since that surgery, that second surgery, and it’s only just now that I feel like I’m starting to feel like myself again in terms of like mentally and in terms of just the way that my body feels. But there’s a lot, that there’s a long period of, of really not feeling quite like a stranger in your own body and in your own mind because of that medication. 

And I didn’t again, I didn’t know that was going to be the case. I had some understanding from independent research that I had done. But the understanding and the reading is nothing was nothing compared to the actual experience. 

Le’Nise: And when you were going through that, did they offer you, because I’ve had clients who have everything you’re describing, I’ve had clients who have been in the exact same position. Did they offer you HRT to get you through the next stage? No?

Lee: No, I asked. And they were like, “well, no, because now you’re only going to be doing it for three months, so you probably don’t need it. And you’re young, so. You’ll be, like your response won’t be as severe as somebody who’s already like reaching menopausal age.” And again, I thought that that. That can’t be right, but I feel like at some point you also for me, definitely there are times when I have a bit of like advocacy fatigue in terms of advocating for myself, like sometimes it’s a bit like, ‘OK, well, which, is this a hill that I need to die on, like is this a battle that I need to really, like, go through? So this as well, because I’m already trying to like advocate for myself and so many other aspects of this particular condition, so maybe this particular issue to do with the HRT, I can put it to the side for now’ and which it shouldn’t be like that. It shouldn’t be the case that there’s so many aspects of your condition that you’re having to fight with people about, that you have to decide which one you’re going to, to pursue this because it’s exhausting.

Le’Nise: Yeah, I’ve been through, through advocacy fatigue myself, and it is exhausting. I do want to ask about the racial aspect of it. So as a Black woman, there’s a lot of research that shows that Black women are dismissed more in medical settings and there is a distrust of medical professionals. Anecdotally, can you speak to whether or not you think that there was an element of that in your experience for you? 

Lee: One hundred percent, absolutely. 

Because even when I was initially going to the doctor and I was talking about my periods, they would say, “yeah, and we actually find that Black women tend to just have more difficult periods. They just experience more difficult periods.” The amount of times people said to that said that to me, “women who are of Black African and Caribbean descent just tend to experience more difficult periods. But have you tried this contraception?” 

It’s mind blowing, and then I actually think the reason why my deciding to go with sex being impeded as the new thing, I was going to push to get further investigation. I think the reason it was so well received was, again, because I was positioning it as, as like I think a lot of people assumed that my Black partner would have, it was more of an issue for him than it was for me. So me positioning, me pushing the fact that sex is an increasingly difficult thing, I don’t even think that they were looking into it because they cared about me. I think it was more being interested in the quality of experience that my partner was having as a result of me being me struggling to, to engage in intercourses without without difficulty.

And I think this when I would be talking about the things that I had read or whatever, I kind of got the feeling that they were even more dismissive because they just felt like, well, what do you know about it? Like what what what do you know? Like, why would you know that? And I don’t know if maybe White women or women of other races have would have that same experience, but I definitely felt an element of almost being scoffed at because they just couldn’t it just didn’t make sense to them that, like, why would you know and why would you actually be somebody we should listen to? And actually, I was giving really valid information that they were consistently missing and not taking me up on, and actually as a result, you know, the situation persisted for much longer than it needed to persist and when it was finally caught, it was at a stage that it really didn’t need to be at. 

Le’Nise: What message would you give any doctors that are listening to this show about your experience and how you believe that they need to take the words that you’re saying into their treatment of other patients with similar conditions?

Lee: I mean, I think I understand definitely they are under immense pressure with they only have 10 minutes for an appointment and that makes it difficult to really, I think, practise medicine in the way that they would ideally want to practise medicine. But I think a very important thing for them to take forward or just to try and engage with, is the understanding that somebody’s health it needs to be a more collaborative process. It can’t be. You know, it really can’t be like a dictatorship in terms of the doctor and the patient, they should really take advantage of the patient’s personal understanding and the information that they are bringing to them and treat it as though it’s a collaborative effort to bring about the ideal result. Because I guarantee, I mean, I’m sure there’s maybe there are some people who, who will frequent a doctor for attention. But I guarantee if you have a patient who is constantly coming to complain about the same issue, it’s not because it’s fun for them. It’s because it’s really affecting their life. And you have opportunity to, to maybe even in an easier sense for yourself and get to the root cause if you’re prepared to view it as a collaboration as opposed to a dictatorship. Because as much as, you know, as a doctor, from your learning with books and things that you’ve seen, you can’t ever really know somebody’s personal lived experience, that your understanding of pathology from a binary medical textbook sense will never, it can never under cut somebody’s personal lived experience of their pathology and what they’re experiencing, so just being able to really listen or wanting to listen from a place of wanting to understand as opposed to from a place of just wanting to to respond, that in itself is a huge thing. 

Le’Nise: So health needs to be a collaborative process. Doctors really need to not, just hear you, but really listen too. 

Lee: Oh, yeah, for sure.  

Le’Nise: I mean, we could, I could talk to you for so much longer. You’re, you’re so interesting. We haven’t even talked about the herb side of it. But I want to end the conversation by talking about the patient side. So what words would you say to someone who is on this journey and they just feel like giving up? What would you say to them? 

Lee: I would say to them, you should absolutely, despite what anybody else will say to you or how anybody else will try to make you feel, you really have to continue to trust and believe the things that your body, your heart and your mind are telling you. You have to really listen to what your body is saying to you, because it absolutely knows what it wants. It absolutely knows what it means. And like I said before, doctors will have medical textbook knowledge. They’ll have maybe things that they’ve seen in their careers, but that can never undercut your personal experience. Like there’s nobody who has more knowledge on it than you do. And you have to believe that. And don’t be afraid. I think it can be really daunting to be in those situations as a patient because you think, well, this person knows more than me and they position themselves as though they are the authority, but you are the authority on you and your body and your physical experience. So don’t be afraid if you don’t feel like you’re getting the, the attention or the understanding or the care that you need, don’t be afraid to ask for, for better or to just say, you know what, I’m going to try and look for a different opinion and it might take you two, three, four different opinions, sometimes it’s difficult like that, it shouldn’t be, but sometimes it is. But don’t be disheartened. Don’t, don’t stop trying to find the answers for yourself. If yourself is telling you that something is wrong. 

Le’Nise: So much good stuff in this conversation, don’t stop looking for answers, you know your body, trust yourself. Thank you so much for coming on the show today, Lee. If, if people want to find you if they want to ask you questions. Where can they find you? 

Lee: So I am on Instagram, I’m sure. Well, you’re obviously going to tag my Instagram account. And I’m actually in the process of building a website platform, basically a wellness destination for all women, but in specific women of colour, because I think it’s very important that women of colour are afforded the opportunity to engage in wellness and self care as a lifestyle in an accessible way. So I’m in the process of building a platform for that. And before the end of year, hopefully I will have something for you guys. And it’s just really a place that combines the understanding of movement as medicine and the understanding of the natural world and our natural herbal heritage as a place for holistic health and just holistic living and positions self care as an integral ceremony that doesn’t necessarily involve. Bells and whistles, but can be engaged in as just a lifestyle practise that you deserve, because I think there’s an understanding there has been too long an understanding that rest, restoration, selfcare, wellness, these are privileged things and they’re not privileges. They’re your absolute right and you deserve them. 

Le’Nise: Whoa, self care is a practise that you deserve. I absolutely love that. OK, so have to have you back on the show or doing Instagram live. But for now, thank you so much for coming on the show. It’s been an absolute treat talking to you. 

Lee: Thank you so much for having me, Le’Nise. Like I said, I’ve been wanting to talk to somebody about my period for ages. 

Period Story Podcast, Episode 36: Alice Rose, Take Your Fertility Day By Day

I’m so excited that season 4 of Period Story podcast is here! For the first episode of the season, I’m so excited to have Alice Rose on the show, just in time for Fertility Awareness Week here in the UK. Alice is a fertility advocate, speaker and consultant and shared her own experience of fertility treatment. We had a wonderful, open discussion about her fertility journey, including a PCOS and fibroid diagnosis, the support she needed during this time, having a baby during lockdown and of course, the story of her first period.

Alice says she was really excited to get her first period and when it arrived, she was confused and a bit embarrassed but her mum was very supportive. She says that the embarrassment around her period continued because her menstrual cycles were very erratic and she felt different to her friends.

Her fertility journey started when she came off the pill and her irregular cycles returned. This made Alice take a really proactive approach to try figure out what was happening to her. Listen to hear what Alice did next, including how she managed her PCOS and fibroid diagnosis.

We had a really frank conversation about the physical and emotional toll fertility assistance can take on both women and men. Alice shares the different tools she used to support herself, as well as advice for anyone going through something similar.

Alice says that it’s so important to find the support you need and take things day by day, so that you move away from living in the future. Thank you so much, Alice!

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ALICE’S BIO

Alice is a fertility advocate, speaker and consultant. 

After her own experience of 11 rounds of fertility treatment to conceive a daughter and one round of treatment for a baby boy, born in February this year, Alice supports and empowers others through her Instagram community; the Fertility Life Raft podcast and live events with business partner Cat (catandalice.com).

Alice has consulted for several brands and companies including the BBC and was behind BBC Radio 2’s Fertility Week 2019. She also runs a campaign called ‘Think! what not to say’ to try and encourage better fertility conversations in the wider society. She is a big fan of coffee, music and cinnamon buns!

Get in touch with Alice:

Instagram

Website

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SHOW TRANSCRIPT

Le’Nise: Welcome to the show, Alice. I’m so excited to have you here. 

Alice: Thank you so much. I am so thrilled to be here. I’m really excited to have this chat. 

Le’Nise: So let’s just get in to the first question that I always ask, which is tell me the story of your very first period. Can you remember it? 

Alice: I can remember it. So I was 13 and I had wanted to have my period for a while because my friends had started getting their periods. And I was like, oh, I really want it. I want to be a woman, you know? And then finally, one day it happened. But I mean, the the actual memory is quite hazy, but the things that are really clear to me is how I felt about it. And I remember feeling quite excited, but also quite embarrassed, like I was quite, and it’s funny, isn’t it? Because actually, I’m one of four girls, so I’ve got two older sisters and a younger one, and I’ve got a good relationship with my mum. And, you know, she’s the kind of mum who’s really open and she’ll be very, you know, she’s quite, a little bit eccentric, maybe even. And yet when it came to things like periods, we still didn’t really have open conversations about it. So I felt quite like I didn’t know how to bring up with my mum, but I felt like I needed to tell her because I needed some period products. 

So I just remember writing this really awkward little note and leaving it on her bed. Oh, I think I’ve got my period, Mummy, something like that. And then she wrote me one back and left on my bed with some pads that she dug out from somewhere. I really remember her saying, “Oh, I know it is bit difficult”, because because I was brought up in the country, it wasn’t that we could pop down to the corner shop like, you know, I would do. Now I live in a city.

So she was I like finally. I know. I don’t know why she didn’t just ask my sisters. And in fact, she must have had loads of stuff lying around at that point because this was a long time ago now. 

So it just baffles me when I think what were we doing even sending each of these notes? Like, why didn’t she just come and knock on my door and have a conversation? It’s really funny. 

And it just makes you think, gosh, maybe, you know, we weren’t as as kind of open as I thought we were. Maybe maybe we actually weren’t, because I do think there was this kind of, bit of shame around it. And I did. I felt embarrassed and I felt, you know, and and the actual period that I got was a little bit like it wasn’t, it didn’t feel like a proper one. So I almost was like, oh, is this it or is it not it? I wasn’t really quite sure. So I didn’t, it was all very, it was a little bit confusing and a bit embarrassing. That was that was my memory of my first period. 

Le’Nise: It’s quite sweet that that you you passed notes to each other. I know that you say what what we were doing, but it’s kind of a sweet memory that your mum, she kind of met your energy with the same energy. And that’s kind of a sweet thing to do. 

Alice: Very sweet. Looking back, you know, and that kind of sums her up a lot, actually. And she is she she does do that. And she obviously realised that that’s how I felt comfortable, you know, talking about it. So. So she was like, okay, we’ll do notes. 

Le’Nise: And you said that there was this level of almost, not discomfort, but, you know, it was maybe shame you didn’t really talk about it openly. So how did you, after you got your first period, how did you then learn what was happening to your body? 

Alice: So I think I knew, you know, biologically I understood what was going on. I understood why we got periods because close friends of mine had already got theirs. I actually went to them, like that, that’s where I, I don’t know why I didn’t talk to my older sisters. I mean, we’ve got really good relationships, but still within the family. I don’t know why it just wasn’t really done. And, you know, now we have much more open conversations. Now we’re kind of grown up. 

But, yeah, at the time, it was my friends and I really remember, really clearly, actually my, one of my best friends talking me through how to use a tampon. And I was sitting in the loo and she was outside and she literally told me, open the thing, do this, do that. And she just kind of talked me through it and again, and that’s a really, again, quite a sweet, intimate little memory that I’ve got that I remember coming up. We like really quite proud of myself. And, you know, it’s a bonding thing, isn’t it, between girls? 

I think when you go through this, it it felt it it just so almost feels like an initiation into this new era of our lives, so, yeah, that was that was quite sweet as well. 

Le’Nise: And then when you went into school, were there open conversations with your friends and then with the school about periods that you were getting through, maybe lessons and then schoolyard conversations? 

Alice: So they were definitely open conversations within my friendship group. But again, what happened with my period is that I never got regular cycles, which led on to my fertility problems later in life, which of course is what I focus on now. But my periods were always completely erratic. They never followed the kind of textbook things. So again, I kind of felt a little bit awkward and embarrassed about that because we weren’t really taught about that in school. You know, what we were taught was that this is what happens every 28 days. This is what happens to a woman’s body. And my body wasn’t doing that. My body was doing something all of its own. And I sort of, again, felt a little bit embarrassed about talking about what was going on for me within my friendship group because no one else seemed to be having these problems. I’m sure they were underneath it all. You know, there must’ve been someone else within my group who was going through it. But I know my close friends, you know, the ones that I did have open conversations with, were just having periods like like, you know, people do. So, yeah, that was that. 

Le’Nise: And so when you realise that the periods you were having were irregular, what did you do? What did you try to do about it? 

Alice: I don’t remember ever being terribly active in trying to sort out in terms of getting to the bottom of it. What I remember doing is going on the pill because that’s what everyone was doing. So it was more about regulating my period actually, than anything else. And I think I started on it when I was 16. And then because it regulated my periods, I kind of forgot about the fact that my I never had regular ones before I went on it, you know, and I just sort of it was like putting a plaster over something, isn’t it? You know, you just go, okay, fine. That’s working now. Lovely. So I don’t need to worry about that. But really, I hadn’t actually got to the bottom of why it was so regular and erratic anyway. So I just, I just carried on and just took the pill for years and years and years, as was kind of all of my friends were doing. And there wasn’t even really a question of, it was just kind of I oh, I just go on the pill, you know? And now there’s so much more information about what people sometimes have reactions to different kinds of pills and all the different kinds of contraceptions available. Actually, a friend of mine has a platform called The Low Down. So Ali is actually a friend of my sister’s and she set that up. And I just think it’s brilliant because there was nothing like that before, was there, to kind of help women choose what contraception was correct or that would work for them? That just wasn’t anything like that when we were growing up. So, yeah, just went on the pill. Periods were, you know, regular because of that. They weren’t real periods though, were they? That’s the thing. Pretend ones that don’t really do anything. So yeah, it was not very sensible really. 

Le’Nise: Well you did the best with what you knew at the time and when you then decided that it was time to come off of the pill. Talk us through what provoked that change and then what happened with your periods then. 

Alice: So I got married and decided to start trying for a baby. So I have been on the pill all of that time up until I was 30, I think, about 30, 31. Such a long time thinking about it taking those drugs. My goodness. Anyway, I came off the pill because I wanted to try for a baby and went to my GP to say, “I’m going to come off the pill now, I didn’t ever have regular periods before I went on the pill, should we maybe investigate what’s going on, like, straight away?” Because I, I sort of have my organised hat on and I was like, “I think I might have problems conceiving actually”. You know, when I’d grown up and realised that it probably wasn’t great that my periods were so erratic and she sent me straight away to have a scan and have a little bit of an investigation, which was really good. And then when I came off the pill, my periods were totally erratic. Again, so very irregular. My hormones went crazy, actually, when I first came off the pill. I had a really bad reaction hormonally, so my skin went crazy. And, yeah, I didn’t, it definitely had affected me way more than I had realised. You know, that little pill that I was taking had had a huge impact on my body’s balance and everything. So, yeah, it was, it was, but it felt it kind of felt quite, now, looking back, it felt good to get rid of it. Go back to the basics and try to actually uncover what was happening in my body and and why and how how I could help it. 

I mean, I could carry on talking here, Le’Nise, but I’m going to stop because I feel like I should it, because I really could just. Yeah. There’s so much to say about this. 

Le’Nise: When you say that you when you wanted to go back to the basics, talk about what those basics were. 

Alice: I suppose what I mean by that, what what I meant by that was that I wanted to work out what was really going on. I wanted to work out why was my body not doing what I was taught in the textbooks at school that it should do. And when I say erratic, I really do mean, you know, they they were wild. They were like up to one hundred days. I wouldn’t have anything or you know, even when I started on fertility treatment, I started taking the ovulation drug Clomid. And the first time I took it, I did have a textbook 28 day cycle. And I thought. Amazing. You know, this has fixed me. I’ll be pregnant in no time. Brilliant. But then I didn’t get pregnant that month. I had ovulated, but I didn’t get pregnant. And then the next time I took it. Nothing happened. Absolutely nothing happened. I didn’t ovulate. I didn’t get a period. And I was so confused. And I went back to the gynae[cologist] who had put me on it in the first place. I was like, “I haven’t I haven’t had a period. You know, it’s been days and days now. What’s going on?” So she scanned me and had a look at what was going on internally in my follicles and everything. And she was like, “yeah, it doesn’t look like you’ve responded at all to to the treatment. You haven’t ovulated. I think you’re going to need IVF.”

And that was like a bombshell, you know, because I was like, huh, what? I thought I just needed to take this little drug here and then my periods would regulate and then I would get pregnant. That was what I thought was going to happen and it just didn’t. So I seem to have a very. Yeah. And again, it was it was that feeling of like, my body isn’t doing what it’s supposed to do, even when I’m taking these drugs. It still wasn’t doing it. And that continued all the way through my fertility treatment. I was really, sometimes I would respond, sometimes I wouldn’t respond. And it was just the most frustrating thing in the world and so difficult, you know, especially when you’re trying to, you know, move on, move on, move on. And you constantly feel so stuck because your body is just not doing what it’s supposed to do. And you do, you feel a bit broken. You feel like a failure because you’re just thinking, what? Why is this, you know, so easy for everyone else? They just buy this little ovulation kit thing, you get the smiley face, you’ve ovulated. Great. Now go and have sex. But I couldn’t even get to that point. You know, it just wasn’t, it just wasn’t happening. So the periods were. Yeah. Just just very confusing to me. 

Le’Nise: Did they ever try to get to the root cause of the irregular cycles might be?

Alice: So that’s what happened after I’d been told by that gynae that I should have IVF. I felt like that was a really big leap from what I was doing. And exactly as you said, I was like, yeah, but what’s going on? Like, I, I need more information. I don’t feel like jumping straight to that, that is the correct thing to do. So I went and had a second opinion and that was brilliant because she sat me down. She said, “I think you might have that you got polycystic ovary syndrome. You aren’t a typical, you don’t present in a typical PCOS manner, but I think you’ve got enough of the symptoms to suggest that that’s what’s going on.” So then she talked me through lifestyle factors and changes that I could make. She explained to me about insulin resistance that can happen with PCOS and talked me through diet and nutrition and all of these different things. So I left that appointment feeling really kind of excited that I was going to be able to impact what was happening to my body and understanding so much more. And it felt really, really empowering and quite yeah, I was quite motivated after that, so I and I had quite a quite good girl. Like, I like to stick to the rules. If someone told me something that’s going to work, I go, right, okay, here’s my template, my little recipe. 

I’m going to just do exactly as they tell me and then that will work. So I followed it to the letter and she was like, right, no sugar, this, that and the other. You know, she gave me this kind of plan at first. I just like, cried my eyes out. I thought, well, I can’t get pregnant and now I can’t have a piece of cake like, that sucks. What the hell? And I felt really I felt really angry about it and I felt really frustrated. And it was just felt really rubbish. And I just felt quite hungry, actually. I just, I didn’t understand, I didn’t understand how to eat in the way that she was telling me might have an impact on my cycles. So I actually had a nutritionist consultation because I thought, I don’t have a clue what I’m doing, I need somebody to help me. And that was brilliant. Like, I, I thought that was really, if I may say so, quite a smart move because it helped me to, you know, reaching out and getting that support and going to somebody who did really understand who’d made their livelihood understanding was actually really helpful. And she sort of gave me these recipes. And then I started to get, again, quite excited about it. I was like, okay, there’s like all these different ways I can embrace what’s happening to me instead of fighting it. So that’s what I started to do. And it did have an impact. It had an impact on me as a whole person. The periods, again, I mean, it’s hard to say what was going on, because once I started to make all these diet and lifestyle changes, I was also doing a lot of mental health wellbeing, kind of self coaching stuff. I was also having fertility treatments as well. So it was a kind of like, you know, I was coming at it from all angles and to try and holistically get my body to do what I needed it to do. And while it started to respond in terms of, you know, I was having then began to have periods. I still wasn’t getting pregnant. So I did end up having IVF even after 10 rounds of of treatment. And then I did. And then I had success with IVF. But yeah, with, with periods after I had my first baby. And I’m going to make a leap here, if that’s okay with you.

Le’Nise: Yeah. Yeah.

Alice: So I had Matilda and then I breastfed her for 10 months. And when I stopped, my periods arrived and just started happening like they’re supposed to. And I was like, oh, is this this is this what people were just experiencing all of those years when I was trying everything under the sun to get my body to do this and then it just started doing it and I was amazed that I didn’t have to, you know, eat a special diet and take pills and do supplements and have acupuncture and everything under the sun. I was trying to just get my body to have a period. It just was doing it by itself. It was amazing. 

Le’Nise: So just go back a little bit to the eleven rounds, sorry, 10 rounds. Is it 10 or 11?

Alice: Ten unsuccessful, one, one successful round of IVF.

Le’Nise: So that that will take quite a physical and emotional toll on your body. So for listeners who might be going through the same thing right now, who are going through IVF or thinking about it, can you talk a little bit about the support that you were able to put together to get you through this process and also talk about how long this process was for you? 

Alice: Sure. So in terms of the actual time period, because I was really proactive and impatient, it it sort of started straightaway and I went into fertility treatment itself, really about, you know, just literally the month that I wanted to start trying because I went to the GP straightaway. I then had oh, there it was, they also found a fibroid. So anyone listening, that’s a growth in the uterus. So they found that and they said to me that might get in the way when you were trying to conceive, do you want to get rid of it? And I was like, “well, yeah, if it’s going to get in the way, let’s get rid of it.” So we had had an operation to remove that first. So it really was kind of straight in. Most people will be trying for quite a while before they get to that point. But because I was presenting with symptoms immediately, I just I just went straight there. So all in all, that whole experience was 11 rounds was two years and two months, which actually is not that long when it comes to infertility journey, most most people will have a longer experience. But the intensity of what was happening was really a lot to do.

And emotionally, you know, it took its toll. And I really I really believe that the way I got through that was to reframe what was happening to me. And I did that through, I like to say self coaching because I feel like that’s what happened in the end. And the route into that, the gateway into being able to self coach myself was by doing something called The Artist’s Way, which was then it’s a course, but it’s just in a book. So I had somebody who had given me this book and it sat on my shelf this whole time. And while I was going through all of these failed rounds of treatment and feeling so frustrated and upset and alone and left behind and stuck and I mean, it’s horrendous. I felt like I needed to do something. It’s taken me out of that experience. I started to do this this course. And it’s, it’s a course in rediscovering your creative self or something like that. And I was, I was at the time, I was an actor. And so it was all, it really appealed to me, this ability to reconnect to who I was. So I started doing that. And it had a huge, huge impact on my mental health, my wellbeing, my motivation. Everything changed. My outlook changed. And at the same time as that, as I said, I was kind of coming at this from all angles. 

So I was seeing an acupuncturist and originally that was to help with my fertility. But what I now see in hindsight was that it was just this huge support. It was like going to therapy and it was, you know, blissful going to see her because it took me out of my body for a moment and someone else was holding me and taking care of me. And that was so important as well. I was also referred to a fertility counsellor through my NHS clinic, which was absolutely amazing. So I really advocate seeking support for anybody going through this as well. 

If you can just, you know, find find that support and find specialist support because it was really helpful to sit there. And she knew exactly what I was talking about when I was talking about Clomid or these feelings that I was going through. You know, she really did understand. And I later found out she understood on a personal level as well, because she was actually going through it herself, you know, while I was seeing her, she was also experiencing it. So those are, those are the things that it’s the self coaching. It was the support that I had, but it was also the lifestyle changes that I made because, you know, the nutritional stuff and the and the the healthy lifestyle that I was leading to try to get my body to help me, ended up having a really positive effect on my mental wellbeing as well, because my moods were a bit more balanced. 

You know, I had more energy. I just felt really good. And that’s not something you hear very much when you when you hear people talking about going through infertility. And I really want to caveat that by saying it was still really, really hard. You know, I still felt the pain and the grief every time my cycle didn’t work. I still wanted to be a mum more than anything else. But in between those those periods of of mourning, really, and grief, every time something didn’t work, I felt good. I felt good about myself. I felt good about my life. And I’m talking you know, I’m talking really passionately about this because this really is it’s my raison d’être, really, Le’Nise, like I really want to try and help others find that. I want to help others find that sort of reframe. And the idea that you can actually experience joy and and some success and peace in your life, even while you also go through that pain. 

So, yeah, in a nutshell, but that’s what happened to me. 

Le’Nise: Listening to your story and I’ve heard and stories that I’ve heard from other women, either clients or women that I’ve spoken to, what always strikes me is how much they go through, how much you, you’ve gone through to have a baby, and it’s just this journey. And so this something that you want so badly that you always get the sense that the other woman I’ve spoken to that you would do anything to make that happen. 

And I often think about what happens after the baby. You get the baby and then you have the whole everything physically and emotionally that you’re dealing with postpartum, plus caring for a brand new tiny little baby, but then also dealing with some of the trauma of having all, had all of this done to your body. 

Can you just talk a little bit about that? 

Alice: Yes, such a good point. And so, so important. And I feel that it is absolutely imperative that emotional well-being and mindset work is actually up, that as the highest priority when you’re going through fertility stuff. 

And the thing is that, yes, you all are so desperate and you just want to do anything. And that was absolutely me. You know, I was I just wanted to get to the end result. I just wanted to have a baby. And I didn’t really I didn’t want to slow down and work on my mindset. I didn’t want to slow down and do gratitude practice. 

I just wanted to have a blimmin baby like everyone else was doing. 

But what I learnt through this whole process was that actually, you know, once once you do get to that stage and you do get pregnant and you do have the baby, your emotional and mental health is just so, so important. 

And the more in touch with who you are and what you need on any given day, the better able you’re going to be to be able to manage that period and to be able to manage that trauma that is with you. You know, and lots of people who are in my community have also been through loss. They’ve been through incredibly traumatic experiences or they might have had a traumatic birth, which really does stay with you as well. My first birth was quite traumatic and I recently had some birth trauma counselling before I had my second baby this year in February. So trauma is a really important part of all of this to process and to recognise, as you rightly say. And I think that validation is just so huge for anyone experiencing a difficult road to parenthood, you know, to validate how incredibly hard it is and that you do you try everything. I mean, you literally would go out in the garden and do a dance under the full moon holding 10 crystals in your hand, if someone told you that was going to work, you would do it. You don’t even care. You don’t care what you look like, don’t care what people think. You’re like this going to work. I’m going to do it. I need, I’ve got to have my baby. And it’s some it’s all, it’s all consuming and, you know, it’s very and it impacts every area of life. So and the trauma, as you say, on the body, yoru physicality. I think women just kind of go, well, this is what needs to happen. So I’m just gonna put myself through. And me and my body are just going to have to cope. And actually, we really need to take care of ourselves. We need to take care of all of our bodies and our hearts and our souls and our minds holistically to be able to manage the intensity of what you actually go through to have that baby. 

Le’Nise: So having gone through all of that and then having a positive outcome in the form of your daughter, you then went on to have a second baby earlier on this year. Can you talk about what you did differently that time around then, when you think about what you did the first time? 

Alice: So when I, when we decided to try for another baby, I really, truly, genuinely was in the mindset of thinking, if I never have another baby, I am actually absolutely okay with that. I felt very at peace and accepting of our position. I felt incredibly grateful that we had Matilda. And I just thought, you know, if this happens again, what a huge bonus. How lucky would we be? So I didn’t feel that sense of of desperation that I had with my first child. I felt that I went I went into trying with a very open mindset. So we tried naturally for about 10 months because my periods had regulated and we never discovered another reason why we weren’t conceiving. So we thought, well, it’s always possible. And everyone tells you, oh, once you’ve had one, you’ll probably get pregnant easily the next time. So we were like, well, look, it didn’t happen for us. So we decided to rather than just keep trying. After about 10 months, we were like, well, we’ve got some frozen embryos. Again, very fortunately, we had some frozen embryos. So I just called up my doctor. We had gone privately in the end because with the NHS clinic here in the UK, after I’ve been through all of those failed rounds of treatment, and then I told them I wanted to move to IVF. They then said, well, that’s a different waiting list. We’ll need to wait probably for about a year. And at that point, having already gone through 10 failed rounds, I thought, I can’t wait a year to start IVF. So I basically remortgaged my house. I just did whatever I could to go privately and have that round of IVF. So anyway, to come back to where we were, with the second baby, I just I just called up my doctor. I said, “I think I’m gonna have a frozen embryo transfer. What’s the protocol? And and then and then we went through it and it was really straightforward. And I want to say that with a very you know, again, we were so very lucky with that that it didn’t need a lot of medication because my body had started to do what it was supposed to do anyway. So all I needed to do at that point was to track my ovulation, which worked because I was having periods, tell him when I’d ovulated and we scheduled in the transfer. And unbelievably, it worked again. 

So it almost was like having a baby naturally for me. So compared to the first time, which was just so, so hard. The second time was was very different, even though it was an IVF transfer, an IVF baby. It was a completely different experience, mindset as well as everything else. 

Le’Nise: You had your baby in February this year, and then we went in the UK, we went into lockdown in March. Can you talk a little bit about the experience of having a newborn in lockdown while also caring for yourselves and healing from birth?

Alice: You know, I’m almost welling up, Le’Nise, because this is the first time someone’s actually asked me about how how that was. And I have to say, it was probably the hardest thing I’ve ever been through. Gosh. It was just so challenging because, you know, it was so, so unexpected. It was so unknown. It was so scary. And, you know, after I’d had Matilda, which, as I said, it was a little bit of a traumatic birth. You know, it didn’t really go to plan. And I lost a lot of blood. And, you know, I physically I needed to go to the surgery after I had her, you know, an hour after I’d had her, I had to go to surgery for two hours without her and be repaired because I’d had such a damaging birth experience. So when I was pregnant with Reggie, I was really I was I really didn’t know what to do about the birth. And in the end, after a lot of conversations with my midwife team and everything, we decided on a planned C-section. And I, as I said, had birth trauma counselling to help me to sort of come to terms with all of that. So I had the C-section. And so when I’d had Reggie, I was recovering from major surgery. But, you know, I was postpartum anyway, which was is very, very overwhelming time. And but what I had put in place because of my experience with Matilda, which I had found really overwhelming. Becoming a mum after all of that, you know, I said to everyone around me, I said to my family, I said to my friends. I am not leaving my bed for three weeks. You guys can come and help me. I’m going to lie here. I’m going to really try to just, you know, take this as easy. I’m gonna get all of the help I need and I want and all of that. I kind of had a real, I felt really, really lucky that was gonna get another go at kind of that newborn era and that I was just gonna try and be really accepting of the broken sleep and I was gonna just sink into it. 

So it was kind of, you know, I was ready. 

And that first five weeks after he was born, as challenging as they were, because having a baby is hard, I was also in quite a good headspace. And I was, I had lots of help and my sisters were coming round. My mum was there and my mother in law came and I felt quite held. And then all of a sudden, lockdown happened. And I actually remember being over at my neighbour’s house because our kids went to nursery, Matilda and her little boy went to nursery together and they were playing after nursery. And we were watching the news and they said they were going to close the nursery and that, you know, there was no mixing with other households. And I I just thought, how am I going to manage this? You know, Reggie was not sleeping. 

He was a very refluxy newborn. He was being sick all the time. He had the loudest cry you’ve ever heard in your life. I mean, people literally commented on it in the hospital. The second he came out, he screamed the place down. Everyone in the theatre said, wow. Good luck with that. Literally, that’s what they said to us. And we were like, oh, thanks. And so he was he was not he was not a relaxed little thing. 

He was he was a challenging, challenging newborn. And we were not sleeping. You know, we really were not sleeping. We were getting a few hours sleep every night. And then and then all of a sudden, Matilda was there all day, every day. Simon was still supposed to be working at that point for the first six weeks. He was still working, trying to. And I had to look after Reggie and Matilda, 24/7 with no help. And it was, yeah, one of the most difficult things I’ve ever had to get through. So when he was far, when Simon was furloughed, that was just the biggest relief ever because I had some help, you know, and I could at least take a little bit of a rest here and there. But still, you know, as everyone had, it was it’s been one of the most difficult years in living memory. We’ve all had our own, you know, mountains to climb and battles to fight. So that was mine. 

Le’Nise: What I find so interesting about you is you have this incredibly heart, heartrending story and you’ve been through so much. 

But then when you, when you look at your Instagram, which is how we connected, you never get the sense of everything that you’re going through or you’ve gone through, because the work that you do is about supporting other woman and being there and offering them guidance through their fertility journey. 

Talk about how you are able to separate but and why you decided to make that separation. 

Alice: That’s such a good question. So I made that decision, I started my Instagram knowing exactly what I wanted to share and being very, very clear about what I would, what my mission was on that account. So it was never a kind of personal account that kind of documented my journey and then changed into something else. It began as a support account and it always was going to be. So I always knew that I would never really be sharing, like, you know, the intimate detail of what was happening personally for me on a day-to-day level. But, you know, I, I, I do try and share my life because I believe that that’s is how we connect, isn’t it? 

That’s how we get to know people. And I want people to know me as a person to understand that, you know, I’m offering the support through my lived experience. And, you know, they’re going to they’re going to respond to me or not respond to me, judging on, you know, how we can love us as people. But when I really started to go, okay, I’m going to start not really talking about my life as a mum here, because I just don’t think it’s serving the people that I want to help. And my mission really is to is to find the people who are really, really struggling and to bring them in and to really guide them into a place of peace and acceptance and joy and positivity, as well as acceptance of the difficult feelings that they’re also going to be having. So that actually, by the time they finished working with me and I actually just launched my new six week course, that’s really what that does, is to try to get people into a place where seeing, you know, people living in life as parents isn’t going to be as damaging and triggering for them because they’ve come into a much better, more healthy headspace. But I just felt that, you know, sharing the ins and outs of how hard my life was on that page just just wasn’t really appropriate. And I didn’t feel comfortable doing it, which is why I then set up my other page, which is my mum account. So I’ve got my Alice Rose, the mama, where I’m very real and I’m very open. And actually I got so much support myself through sharing that side during lockdown. And that was, that was an amazing thing for me to have, you know, while I was going through that sleepless, difficult time, just sharing on my other page and going. I’m really struggling today and just having messages from other, other women and other moms saying, we’re here with you. You know, solidarity, we can do this was just amazing. So it’s kind of nice because I’ve got my one where I support people. But then I also I’m also filling my own cup up, you know, with the other one. And that is so important. 

Le’Nise: So talk a little bit more about the work you do. So if listeners are if a listener sharing this, and thinking, I need that support. I’m going through a lot right now. I need, I need that support. How how can I get in touch with you? What support have you been able to access that you think would be worth the listeners who are going through the same journey accessing? 

Alice: So I am a huge advocate of finding the support that you need. And I think that, you know, there’s loads of different options in terms of support. If you’re looking for a counsellor or a coach, the counsellor specifically, you would go to BICA, the British International Counselling Association, or you would go to Fertility Network UK or you would go to Instagram and you would, you would you type in the hashtags #fertilitycoach, #fertilitycounsellor. And people will will come up. They will. You’ll be able to find if that’s what you want, if you want one-to-one support, then that’s where I would recommend that you go. If you’re looking for immediate kind of online support, that’s where I can help, because what I wanted myself when I was going through this kind of stuff was just kind of things that I could action personally, you know, without having to wait for an appointment or pay a lot of money for an appointment or make time in my in my day, you know, for that. What I wanted was just to be able to take ownership of what was happening. 

So that’s what I’ve created for people that I’ve got my, you know, online mini mindset course, which is just a 10 day £20 option. I’ve got a five day course for £10. I got my little mini meditations, so for £5 again. I’ve got my end self compassion for pregnancy announcement meditation, for example. So I’ve tried to make them really specific because it’s those moments of just being knocked sideways when, you know, a friend of yours announces a pregnancy or a family member or, you know, someone in your life announces something and you feel absolutely on the floor, you feel devastated you feel. I actually put the post together with the words that people sent in to me about how it made me feel. And someone was saying it’s like being punched in the throat. It’s, you know, and it’s the physical, visceral and incredibly dark feeling. And then you layer on top the guilt because you’re supposed to be happy. 

And not only are you supposed to be happy, you’re supposed to be happy immediately that someone tells you. So it’s a really, really tough one. 

So that is a specific little meditation for that. It really helps to just take people out from that place of guilt and darkness and pain and grief and just to validate how they’re feeling and to give them the gentle but powerful refrain to go, you know what? I’m a human being. I’m having a really hard time. And it really soothes and it really takes them out of that. So. So, yeah. So that’s the kind of support that I am working on, I offer, yeah. And the six week course I’ve just launched is a group thing, so we’ll start that soon. As I mentioned, by the time this goes out, that will be deep within it. It will run periodically now throughout the year.

Le’Nise: Anyone who’s interested, all of the links will be in the show notes so you can access the course if you’re interested and go find out more about Alice there.

What about men? Men who are going alongside of this with their partners? 

You hear a lot about support for women. What about the men? What, what can men do who maybe they’re suffering in silence or being in the UK, stiff, stiff upper lipping it. Yeah. What can they do? 

Alice: So this is such a huge, huge thing and I’m so glad you brought it out because it’s and it’s something that so I work as well with my business partner Cat and we have an events company called Cat and Alice. Well, it’s events and consulting. So we also work with brands and things to try and get patient insights around fertility. We can help people with fertility policies at work and we help them to look at their, you know, how how often that is represented in the media. I’ve worked with the BBC in terms of just sharing different stories and things. And the events that we run, we did run before 2020. And, you know, we we were really mindful of this. And it’s really difficult because the first ever event that we ran, which was a full day event, lifestyle event, we kind of call them. And they’re not medical. We don’t really have doctors and people from clinics there. What we do is bring in life coaches and holistic things and share stories and have panel events and that kind of thing and really make people feel relevant and parts of of society because so much you feel sidelined when you haven’t got kids. You know, or when you’re trying to have a second baby, and that’s not working very easily. So we, our first event, we said it was open to everyone and one man came. So we realised we had a little bit of a problem because we were speaking to a really, you know, a female sort of skewed audience, and that was what was happening with our events. So the second one, we just said it right. This one’s for women. We’re going to do something else for men coming up. 

And we just had about 80 women all came to our next one. And then what we then did for our Christmas party last year, we just said this is for everybody. And we had loads of men come to that. And it felt amazing to just see everyone coming together in couples or, you know, it just felt like a really welcoming normal and I’m doing quotation marks, it wasn’t really a fertility event. It was just a you know, it was it was it was a party in a really nice venue in London. 

And it was an opportunity for people to come together as people just going through a similar experience. And that was that was really important to us that we recognised that, you know, men are so very much a part of this, too, and they’re just not noticed a lot of the time that they don’t they didn’t even get spoken to directly in appointments sometimes. And, you know, even recently I’ve done [IG] lives with with with clinics and constantly throughout the conversation, I you know, they sing and women there and women that we’ve gone. Yes. And the men, you know. And the men. And the men and the men, because it just is seen as a female issue. And it’s absolutely not. So what can men do? I think it’s this is really hard because they they sort of need to take a little bit of action themselves in order to engage with the support that’s out there. But people all starting to offer more. And there’s there’s James Kemsley. I think his name is, is a is a coach who is really active in trying to promote the support for men. There’s also been quite a lot of new Instagram accounts when it comes to male infertility support. So go and have a look on Instagram, type in, you know, male male support, infertility, whatever it is that you can find with the hashtag. You know, there is a growing Instagram community around that as well. So it’s that it needs a little bit more digging out and more spotlight shone on it. But it is that. 

Le’Nise: So everything you said, your story.  I, I know that listeners, there is there will be listeners who will really connect with what you’re saying. 

If you want to leave them with one thing, one little pearl of wisdom to take away, what would you want that to be? 

Alice: I think my go to is to remember to take things day by day, because a lot of the time what we do is live in the future. And we we get so wrapped up in the anxiety and fear and panic that, you know, what, if this never happens or what would I do if that happens? And it’s incredibly stressful. So the more that we can work on being present, the more that we can work on taking things, if it’s hour by hour, even, especially when you’re in a two week wait, which is when you do the time in between ovulation or fertility treatment and finding out whether it’s worked. You know, that’s such a difficult, difficult time for so many people so the more that we can work on prisons, the better. So day by day, hour by hour, minute by minute, this is what I would leave you with.

Le’Nise: That’s taking a very yogic approach, being present, being present in what’s happening to you. 

Take it minute by minute, hour by hour, day by day. I absolutely love that. 

Thank you so much, Alice, for sharing your story. Share your openness and honesty. And for listeners who want to connect with you on Instagram, can you just say your handle? 

Alice: This is Alice Rose is my Instagram handle, which sounds a bit dramatic, but Alice Rose was taken. This is Alice Rose on my website

Le’Nise: Thank you so much.

Alice: Thank you so much for having me. 

Period Story Podcast, Episode 35: Lauren Lee-Crane and Catherine Lee, Become An Expert In Your Own Body

To round out season 3 of Period Story, I’m really excited to share today’s episode with twin sisters Lauren Lee-Crane and Catherine Lee. They are the founders of Semaine, a health and wellness supplement for people with painful periods. I loved our conversation and am really grateful they shared their story of living with endometriosis, going through various surgeries, being Asian in the ballet world and of course, the story of their first periods.

Catherine said that her first period was very memorable because her mom made homemade Frappuccinos to toast the occasion! Within a few months, she said that she was already asking for a hysterectomy. Lauren says she got her period after Catherine and really didn’t want it.

We talked about being bunheads, which is the term for girls who do ballet at a relatively high level and how they navigated this very structured, hierarchical and rigid world. They were often told that they were too exotic for the ballet world and that they didn’t have the right ‘look’.

Lauren talks about how as ballerinas, they learned to suppress and numb themselves to any pain they experienced and this translated to the endometriosis pain as well. Lauren says they thought of it as just another pain they had to deal with.

Both Lauren and Catherine shared their endometriosis journeys, with Lauren getting diagnosed with stage 4 endometriosis and Catherine getting diagnosed with stage 2 endometriosis. Lauren described the pain she experienced as ‘a bouquet of knives sort of sitting up in her pelvis’. Catherine describes her pain as ‘feeling like she had a bowling ball in her uterus’.

Catherine and Lauren shared stories of their pain being dismissed by doctors and health professional in quite critical moments and how they’ve learned to advocate for themselves in health situations. Catherine says that it’s important to become an expert in your body and Lauren says to trust yourself and advocate for yourself. Thank you so much, Lauren and Catherine!

Get in touch with Lauren and Catherine:

Website

Instagram

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CATHERINE AND LAUREN’S BIOS

Lauren:
I’ve had painful periods since I was 15. After decades of believing the immense pain I experienced was normal, I was diagnosed with endometriosis and underwent multiple surgeries. I don’t want other women who have painful periods, endometriosis, adenomyosis and PCOS to go through what I have. Finding a natural way to support women’s health and voice their stories are the reasons we started Semaine: a health and wellness supplement for people with painful periods. 

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Catherine:
In my late twenties, I started to experience worsening symptoms from endometriosis. In 2015 I elected to have surgery and was diagnosed with stage II endometriosis. I see learning to live with endo as a journey – taking care of myself, listening to my body, and voicing what I need to be healthy. Normalizing the conversation around periods and period pain, is exactly why I wanted to start Semaine with Lar and her husband Matt.

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SHOW TRANSCRIPT

Le’Nise: On today’s episode, we have Lauren Lee-Crane and Catherine Lee. They are the founders of Semaine, a health and wellness supplement for people with painful periods. They started Semaine after both being diagnosed with endometriosis and undergoing multiple surgeries. Lauren says that she doesn’t want other women who have painful periods. endometriosis, adenomyosis and PCOS to go through what she did. Catherine says that normalizing the conversation around periods and period pain is exactly why she wanted to start Semaine. They wanted to find a natural way to support women’s health and voice their stories. Welcome to the show.

Lauren: Thank you so much, Le’Nise, so happy to be here.

Catherine: Thank you, so excited.

Le’Nise: So can you both start off by telling me the story of your first period? 

Catherine: Yes, this is Catherine. I will tell my story first because I got my period first, which, I was very upset because I thought as twins we were supposed to do everything together. 

And I think I got my period almost like 6 to 12 months before Lauren did. And I remember it very vividly. We were, so we grew up outside of Washington, D.C. and Maryland. And every summer, our extended family had a beach condo in Ocean City, Maryland, which is on the eastern seaboard.

So we were at the beach, of course, so we were at that condo. And I still remember there were two bathrooms in that condo and the bathroom where I discovered I had my period. It had all these like orange and brown daisy wallpaper that I feel like that’s like stuck in my mind. But anyways, so I was like I started my period and I was like, oh no. And I remember I told my mom and she was like, so excited, at least that’s the impression I got. Like, maybe she was like, oh my gosh, what’s going on? But I remember it was when this is gonna age us for sure, but it was like a couple years after Frappuccinos came out in Starbucks and there were no Starbucks in Ocean City at the time. But my mom had found like a recipe to make Frappuccinos at home. So I remember she made, like, took out the blender at the beach condo and like made Frappuccinos. And we all, like, cheered to my womanhood. I was mortified and I was just like, I don’t want this. And I think eventually, like within those first couple of months of having my period, I think I asked my mom for a hysterectomy. Like, I don’t really know what it was. I just thought it was like it meant you didn’t have to bleed every month. So my mom was like, “but you’re going to want to have babies and all the things” and I was like, “Not worth it, don’t want this, get it out my body.” And I was just like, not. And I had I remembered, like, you know, with reading like articles like reading teen magazines and stuff and books like women were or young girls were so excited to get their periods and I was like, I can’t really I don’t I don’t want this at all. And I know, like, Lar, you can talk about it, but I know you were like, equally mortified for me.

Lauren: I remember. Oh Cath was twelve. Yeah. So we were a little bit older, I feel like when Cath got her period, I remember I was just like, ‘Oh my God, thank God I don’t have mine yet. And I, I think the reason why we felt that way is we were both dancers. We wanted to be ballerinas. I feel like most little girls at some point want that. We continued to want that until we were 18 and we danced all the time. We, we did like twenty five hours of ballet every week. That was our life. And as a ballet dancer, anything that’s going to cause you inconvenience or make it harder for you to be a ballet dancer, whether it’s to develop breasts, you know, you just want to be skinny. You just want to be able to move the way that you’re used to moving when you’re 11 to 17. And I remember, it’s like a period is going to be such an annoyance because, you know, you have to wear a tampon, you have to wear a pad. So I remember when Cath got her period and she was saying like she was so embarrassed. It was just me and my mom and my dad there. It’s not like we had other people at the condo with us. And I was so embarrassed for her, like, ‘oh, my God, why are we talking about Catherine’s period? I’m so glad I don’t have mine.’ Catherine’s right. I did get mine six months after her and I actually had mine when we were doing The Nutcracker. So every December, you know, every bunhead in the world does The Nutcracker at some point. And Cath and I were getting changed. This is a, you know, a couple hours before you went onstage and I was putting my costume on and I notice there’s like a little bit of blood on my tights.

And I was like, “No, I think I know what this is though. Why is it happening now?’ Cause of, you know, happening right before you’re going on stage. You’re already sort of like nervous and excited and then getting this thing that, Catherine and I obviously we never wanted. I know there are women you’ve had on your podcast and our friends who are excited to get their period, that was never our experience. And I think a big part of that was being ballet dancers and being so focused on on wanting to do that in the sort of strange culture that the ballet world is.

 You know, I mean, it’s not like our ballet dancer teachers ever said, oh, getting your period is bad. I just remember hearing older ballet dancers talking about it and how painful it could be and how, you know, like I remember the Sugar Plum Fairy one year having to ask the costumers just to keep taking her out of her tutu because she had to go put a new tampon in. And I remember I was like, oh, my God, that sounds like such a headache. So that was that was our experience with with periods and ballet.

Le’Nise: Talk a bit about being bunheads. So for people who don’t know what that expression means, typically it refers to girls who do or who do, is it ballet and does it include gym, gymnasts as well? Or is it only ballet? 

Catherine: I think I’ve only heard it used with ballet and when you’re a, if you’re doing ballet at a relatively high level, like a pre professional level like you, it was until like probably we were 16 that we just assumed we weren’t going to be going to university, that we would immediately go into a company or if if we were lucky enough, maybe we’d apply to Juilliard, you know, which is a very well-known school. But if you did ballet specifically, not modern dance or something like that, you essentially go in to a company as early as, like 16, depending on where you are.

And it wasn’t until we were 16 or 17 that we realized maybe we should get a college degree.

Le’Nise: Tell me a bit more about the ballet world. I did ballet when I was really little. But the only thing I really know about ballet is Christmas equals Nutcracker or. And then Black Swan, the movie. That’s it.

Lauren:  That is totally understandable. I feel like that’s most people’s experience with ballet. And to be honest, Catherine and I have never seen Black Swan on because we were like, ‘it’s going to hit too close to home.’ So we’ve never watched it. But really, I feel like how it changed for us is when we were about eight years old, we decided, you know, this is our life. We started when we were about 3 because we had seen Baryshnikov, famous male ballet dancer dancing on television. And I thought he was flying. And I was like, yes, that is what I want to do. So I think a lot of people assume it’s like the pretty tutus or the pointe shoes. But for as we saw Baryshnikov and we like. That’s it. That that is life. And so we took like sort of the classes everybody takes when you start ballet and there’s like tap and jazz when we were younger and when we were eight, we went into this pre-professional academy. And so we would go to ballet anywhere from like when we were younger, it’s like three days a week, by the time we were in high school or about 13 – 14. We were going, you know, five to seven days a week and even leaving school early in order to go to class longer.

And it’s a very it’s a very, very structured, very hierarchical and very sort of rigid world. So each year, you’re trying to progress to sort of the next year. And within those years, you’re also doing performances. So The Nutcracker is the big one in the winter, but we’d have multiple performances in the spring, in the summer as well. And then in the summer, you’d also be applying for workshops with bigger companies like the Royal Ballet, if we were in the UK or American Ballet Theater, we would do workshops with the Joffrey Ballet Theater. We were often considered a little too exotic for the ballet world. We were told that multiple times. So we didn’t have as much luck with some of the bigger companies because we didn’t have the quote unquote look. This was in the 90s. Things have definitely changed now. Not as much as they should. But, you know, Misty Copeland’s out there, which is awesome. But that was very different for us. And sort of the mid, late 90s, we were just told we wouldn’t fit into the corps very well. So this was happening when we were sort of in our later teenage years. And one of the reasons why we ended up getting out of ballet and going to university instead just because of some of the discrimination we faced. But it’s in when you’re in that world, it just seems like even though you see that discrimination, you see, you know, the body dysmorphia that can happen. And obviously the way we thought about our periods was not particularly healthy. It was still such a dream for us like that, still having such a passion for something that almost nothing else mattered. You knowing you were just going to do whatever it took to get to where you wanted to be. And Cath and I were lucky to have each other because it’s a very, very competitive atmosphere that, the teachers are not particularly supportive. And we never competed against each other as twin sisters. It was like if Cath did well, I felt like I was doing well, even if she got a better part than me. But for the most part, you know, it’s not like a team sport. You are very much sort of alone in trying to be better than the next person next to you. So it’s it’s a very yeah. It’s as sort of a strange way to grow up because that, you know, we weren’t focused. We always had to do well in school because our parents were like, if you don’t do well in school, we’re taking you out of ballet. So we, we got the straight As or whatever we needed to do in order to stay with ballet. But really, that wasn’t important to us. It was just, do as well as you can at ballet. Nothing else really matters. And that’s you know, most people are going to parties when they’re teenagers or doing things like that. And we didn’t. It was just like ballet, ballet, ballet all the time.

Catherine: And a big part of it, too, was like Lar was saying about the teachers. Like, a lot of it in that world is just like you’re so desperate to get approval from all the teachers that you have, because they’re the ones who, like, you know, can help push you into a company. They’re the ones that give you better roles and different ballets and stuff like that. And then along the same side, of course, and you have the whole, like, body image aspect of it, which you always hear about with ballet.

Lauren and I were very lucky, we never had to worry about weight problems. I think that’s the Asian side of us. You know, we were naturally skinny, so we were very lucky in that. But we also didn’t have, like, Lar said there, we didn’t have the looks and we weren’t blond and blue eyed. And then on top of that, we didn’t really have the body type either. We’re tiny, we’re like 5″3 on a good day and and ah, you know, our pointes, our feet weren’t exactly like perfect. Our legs didn’t come up to our shoulders. We didn’t have super long legs. I think our torso and legs are kind of even. So it was all these things. It was funny because it was like we were very lucky. We had friends that, you know, suffered with anorexia and stuff and we didn’t have that. But for us, it was like growing up, knowing our bodies weren’t quite right for that world. So, like. And then on top of that, you have you get your period at 12, 13.

You know, and so it’s like one more thing to contend with. And the worst part was when, like, bloating started. I don’t think I started bloating. I don’t know. I can’t really remember. I was not in touch with my body at all at 12 and 13. But, you know, you can’t like suck in your stomach. And I remember dance teachers, you know, you want to tell them you were on your period and they would constantly tell you if your stomach was sticking out, you know, you’d be like, this is not my stomach. This is my uterus. 

Le’Nise: Can you guys both can you both talk about how you feel if you start thinking back to what you went through and the comments that were made about your body so to the bloated belly, from what we know now, is endometriosis and the comments about you being, quote unquote, exotic, talk about how you feel looking back on that now. And whether that had any lasting effect on your, the way you view yourself.

Lauren: Yeah, absolutely. It definitely does. We are now in our 30s, so it’s been almost 20 years since we’re in that very dysfunctional world. But for sure, I still, I still remember the comments that the teachers made either when we were on our periods. And I remember the times when I had such painful periods. But you still had to dance.

And I remember the idea was you just shoved down whatever pain your body was feeling and you did what you had to do. And that is still the idea that stuck with me, I think, through my 20s for sure. So even when my endo pain was getting a lot more acute, it wasn’t just super heavy, painful cramps anymore. I was getting sharp jabbing pains in my pelvis. I remember just thinking, ‘OK, this is another pain I have to deal with. You just take some painkillers and you go to work. You know, you just keep doing what you have to do.’ And, you know, part of ballet is, is discomfort and pain. You know, whether it’s pointe shoes, you know, your feet always hurt or just what you’re how you’re using your body is. You know, it’s like any athlete. You’re, you’re also creating a lot of wear and tear on your body because of how demanding it is. But that sort of pain and rigor is sort of, it feels normal. It feels like part of what you have to deal with. And for me, painful periods. And because I feel like a lot of the women who were dancing with also had painful periods. And I don’t you know, I don’t think most of them had endo, but I don’t know if it’s like a body fat thing. You know, you had really irregular periods because you didn’t have a lot of body fat on you and you were probably stressed out a lot. Your body is physically stressed a lot. So I remember just thinking periods were horrible and painful and abnormal and could be super heavy one month and then you wouldn’t get it the next month. And now that just seem like a normal thing to me. And we definitely never talked about that side of our bodies with our teachers. You know, the teachers. It was all physical appearance, like superficial appearance. If you were looking a certain way and I think you know, the other ways that they told us, you know, being too exotic, being too short. And I remember they said our legs weren’t straight enough. And that’s always stuck with me cause my legs were slightly bow-legged, which I don’t think you would normally think about if you were a normal person who had done ballet. But I remember one of our teachers being like, we could have fixed that if you had told me about this when you were younger and now you always have bowlegs and no company is gonna take you. I remember thinking, just like…

Catherine: If you look at Lauren and she does not, I don’t, I don’t think you have bowlegs. That’s the thing, it’s like these little things that get stuck in your brain. You know, for mine, it was like, you know, our arms didn’t straighten all the way or in the right line and our legs didn’t. But like, I didn’t know you had that bowlegged thing. She also has, like, very subtle scoliosis. And it was so subtle that teachers just thought she was not stretching her neck out enough so she couldn’t turn her head. So it’s this constant thing where it’s like it’s on you, you know, to fix things that are wrong with your body. The responsibility is on you. Obviously, we couldn’t do anything about our ethnicity. We never felt ashamed of the way we looked. But it but it was just accepting. There’s a lot of stuff we accepted back then, I think, because we were kids and it was the 90s that nowadays I don’t think they could have gotten away with it, like, you know, just accepting like, oh, yeah, we’re we’re not blond and blue-eyed. So that’s we’re not going to get certain roles, are, you know, or since their bodies aren’t exactly right, we’re not going to be the teachers aren’t gonna pay attention to us the same amount away. And that was just accept, that was to us that was part of the world. We just stayed focused on it. 

Le’Nise: You both have mentioned pain quite a lot, and something I find quite fascinating about ballet dancers is, you mentioned the pointe shoes and how you just have to, it’s painful and you’re putting your foot in a really unnatural way and basically balancing on your tip toes for like, what, 5, 6 plus hours, however long you’re dancing that particular day. 

And do you think that that going through, having to go through that or deal with that pain on an ongoing basis, kind of numbed you to the endometriosis pain in the beginning?

Lauren: Yeah, absolutely. I just remember thinking that, you know, as a dancer, you know, your feet are sort of shaped a certain way and you have a lot of pain. But it’s also something you learn to sort of pull out of a little bit. There’s ways that make it a little less intense. But I think you’re absolutely right using that word numbing because it’s kind of a weird contradiction, because as dancers, you are very self-aware about your body, you know, just in the ways we were saying, because your things are constantly pointed out to you, but also just moving your body and being able to move through space a certain way and control it a certain way. You’re very aware of your, the way your muscles move and the way your centre of gravity is. But at the same time, you do numb yourself out to any discomfort or any pain because that isn’t going to help you, you know, perform. So it is it’s this weird dichotomy of, of being very aware of your body. But at the same time, if there’s pain, or things that are hurting, that’s something to ignore or push down rather than say, I wonder why I have really painful periods. I wonder why my cramps are so intense or is I didn’t even ever question if that was normal. Our mom also had a really, really intense periods and right, I’m sure she had endometriosis. It was probably not the same stage that maybe I had it, but that was another thing. You know, in our household, it was sort of normalized that periods were painful. And my mom is also a very stoic person. But I wouldn’t say I’m stoic. She is a stoic person. And so she never really complained. She would just say, oh, you know, my period’s really hurting right now, but I’m going to continue to cook food for our entire family during Christmas or, you know, clean the house. It’s just part of what you have to deal with this pain.

Le’Nise: Can we talk about your both of you, your individual endometriosis journey?

Because so, Lauren, you said you had painful periods from the age of 15. And then, Catherine you said that in your late 20s, you started to have worsening symptoms from endo. Can you talk? So you both had endometriosis, but very different experiences. So can you individually talk about what happened to you?

Lauren: Yeah, so my endometriosis story is like a lot of women with endometriosis. It took a really long time to get diagnosed. I think the average time for women to get diagnosed is about 7 to 10 years. For me, it was about 15 years. And the reason why is because I think, culturally, we normalise period pain and a lot of ways, you know, not just in the ballet world or not just in our family, but I feel like whenever I went to a doctor and said, oh, yeah, my periods are very painful, they be like, oh yeah, that’s too bad. You should you know, you can go on birth control or, you know, just keep taking ibuprofen. Like, that’s all you can do. So even at the point when, you know, being fifteen years old and my periods were starting to get really painful and it was for me it was mainly really, really, I could have really heavy periods and then I’d have really, really intense cramping where you had to lay down like, I just could not sit up straight. I mean, my body was just like bent double and that didn’t happen every single period. But it happened, you know, often enough. And I always dreaded getting my period. It was never something I was excited about or just thought, oh, hey, I’m bleeding now. I always knew when I had my period and it was painful. I didn’t, I don’t remember skipping school or anything because, again, I thought you just keep doing what you need to do. So, you know, this is something that’s going to happen every month or every other month. If it was erratic and you just had to deal with it and then like Cath and I both had the experience, we were as we move through early 20s, that pain sort of shifted from really heavy cramping. To me, it was a lot of sharp stabbing pain. Like I explain it as sort of it feels like you have a bouquet of sharp knives sort of sitting up in your pelvis. That’s how endo felt to me. And I was lucky in the sense that I’ve only ever had the pain during my period. I know a lot of women with endometriosis, you have pain throughout your whole cycle. And I felt so lucky that it was just that week. But then you have a quarter of your month is something you absolutely dread. And at the time, my husband and I were moving abroad. We went to the UK to live in Edinburgh. And at that point, I was like, you know what, I I’m pretty sure I have endometriosis. I Googled it. I talked to my doctor about it. She’s like, “Oh, yeah. I think that’s what you have.” I mean, that was the conversation. That was it. And so, again, it was something where it’s like, OK, I just need to deal with it and figure it out on my own. And so I tried changing my diet. I went vegan and gluten free, dairy free, all the things. And my pain just kept getting worse because I think at that point I had so much scarring with my body. I also had an endometrioma, which I didn’t know about, which is a specific type of cyst you can get with endometriosis, especially in the later stages. So endometriosis, for those of you that don’t know, are stage similar to cancers of stage one, two, three and four. And I ended up having stage four. I didn’t know that at the time and no one had told me about these different stages. But as I was experiencing worse and worse pain, I would go to my GP in Edinburgh and tell her like it’s getting worse and I don’t know what to do about it. And then at the point that it was about six months before my first emergency surgery, I remember feeling a lump on the left side of my body around where my left ovary would be. And of course, that freaked me out. I just assumed it was ovarian cancer. And I told my GP and she said it’s not really anything to worry about. I don’t think you have to worry. And I really had to push her to get me an appointment to see an ultrasound technician. And I finally got that like, a couple months later. And the technician was like, “oh, honey, I’m so sorry. You have an endometrioma.” And I was just so happy it wasn’t cancer. I was like, I don’t know what that is, but that’s I was fine. And she’s like, but you’ll need surgery. And I was like, okay, you know, I’m OK. Take it out. And I had no idea what it was like. I just I just was like, OK, it’s not cancer. We’ll schedule surgery six months from now. Great. We’ll get it done. And I don’t know if it’s just like experiencing pain. You’re just like, oh, surgery. Yeah. Massive surgery doesn’t sound like a big deal because let’s just let’s just do what we need to do. And before I could have that surgery, that endometrioma ruptured. Again, I didn’t know that’s what was happening at the time. But it it felt like something had kind of broke or snapped in my body. And I just had so much pain flooding into my pelvis at that point. And I remember this is really early in the morning and Matt had to call, my husband had to call 999. And the EMT came and I was lying on the floor. And the guy was like, you kind of look OK, essentially, like he took my vital signs or whatever. And he is like, You look OK. And I was like, I can’t get up off the floor. And he was like, well, you know, you probably have like a sore tummy. Like it was it was a really odd experience. Like I was like, no, I literally like, I’m in so much pain. And he started to like, get ready to leave. And I was like, I have a heart condition, cause I have mitral valve prolapse, which is very common for a lot of women, and it’s never something that bothered me. But I knew if I said I had a heart condition, they had to take me to the hospital. And so he was like, oh, OK. So then they took me to the hospital and they even though I told them I had to be an endometrioma, I have endometriosis. They were like, we think it’s appendicitis. And I was like, OK. So it took them about 24 hours to decide what to do with me. And I finally ended up in the gynecological ward. And I think they thought I had an STD like I was in so much pain. And they did an exam on me with like a speculum. And it hurt so much. And they still kind of didn’t believe what was going on. And I started running a really high fever. And that happened over the course of a couple days. And then during those couple days where they still couldn’t figure out what was going on, my stomach swoll up because of all the fluid that was pulling into my pelvic cavity. They basically it was the endometrioma had ruptured and was like irritating everything. So my body was trying to protect all my organs. I looked about six, seven months pregnant, and that was when they were finally like, oh, OK, we need to do an ultrasound and see what’s going on. So this is like day five of being in the hospital. And they were like, oh, OK. You have 500 milliliters of fluid. You need to go in and do emergency surgery and pull all that out. And after the surgery was when they were like, yes, you have endometriosis. It was a ruptured endometrioma. This is what happened. And so I was in the hospital for two weeks, and that was after the EMT almost didn’t take me to the hospital. So it’s such a bizarre experience to to by your GP, by everyone being told like it’s no big deal. You know, and then this thing happens. It’s very traumatic, big experience happens. And so that’s, it’s just it’s been a hard, hard journey. And since then, I’ve done a lot more research. And a year after that first emergency surgery, I learned about excision surgery, which is, quote unquote, the gold standard for endometriosis treatment. At this time, there’s no cure. Where they go in and they essentially I’m sorry, probably saying this wrong, but laser out sort of like cut through even healthy tissue to get out a lot of the endometrial tissue that’s where it shouldn’t be. And we found an excision specialist in Atlanta. And I had my second surgery about six months later. And since then have had way less pain, you know, instead of being a 10 plus off the charts. Now, my period, I have about like a three or four, which is amazing to me because I never, never thought that would happen. But it’s been a very long, painful road.

Le’Nise: What you’re saying about how the EMT didn’t, didn’t. He said, you look normal, but you’re, yet you’re saying to him: “I am in so much pain. I need to go to the hospital.” And every single time I hear a story like that, it never fails to just make me really angry at it. 

Just believe women, believe women when they say that they are in pain. And it so absolutely enraged and enraging.

Lauren: Yeah. And I know that. Yeah. That’s not an uncommon story to hear, you know. And even if it’s not as extreme and you get to the hospital even talking to your GP and saying this is what’s happening, I never had a doctor say, oh, maybe you have endo or maybe there’s some other complication we should look into, even though my my pain was extreme. That was all my own research. And at that time, there weren’t. I’m so glad there’s so much more out there on the Great Interwebs right now about endometriosis. But at the time, there wasn’t that much. And I remember just trying to scour through pages and listen to, especially chat forums where other women were talking about this. I was like, OK, so I’m not crazy. I’m not alone. This is an actual thing because I didn’t get that experience from any doctor that I saw. And and sometimes people ask, like, oh, was it a male gynecologist? I’ve had tons of gynecologists. They’ve all been women. And none of them none of them took my pain seriously.

Le’Nise: That I mean, I it’s not you would say it’s unbelievable. But it’s not. I like it. I’ve heard this so often. Cath, can you talk about your story now? 

Catherine: Yes. Mine is slightly less or significantly less traumatic than Lar and I, it’s a lot of that I give credit for Lar for basically being the guinea pig between the two of us because her, we don’t know if it was partly because she did get off birth control. And that’s kind of what triggered more of an endo pain because I never got off birth control. So when she and her husband had moved to Scotland, I was still on birth control. And by my late 20s, like Lar, I started developing more pain that wasn’t just cramping. I mean, all throughout my teens and twenties, certain periods would be, the cramps would be so bad I would feel like I had a bowling ball in my uterus, like, you know, like it’s such a weird sensation. And I just assumed, especially with our mom, who had painful periods, I was like, wow, this is what every woman goes through when they say they have cramps. So like that, I never even though it was hard to like stand for long periods of time with that sensation, I was like, this is just being a woman. And then by my late 20s, it was actually when I would have my period, on my period, like, wow, I was lucky I didn’t have pain off my period, but on my period when I’d have a bowel movement, the pain like in my pelvic region and I guess around my colon was so extreme that I thought I would pass out. And what’s funny is like, you know, you see movies and stuff. People get so much pain and then they pass out from the pain.

 Like, I was like, why couldn’t that happen? I could not pass out. I would just have this extreme pain, you know, like where I would see stars and. And so that’s. And this is all while Lar was going through everything, which was horrendous and it was horrible too not being close to her and and not understanding the NHS system too, I was so confused by that. They didn’t let her have visitors at night. Like also like in the US, which, by the way, has a very broken medical system, too. I’m not like, I think the NHS is great compared to us, but in the States because everything’s charged to you. And they try to get you out of the hospital as soon as possible. They do like a million scans that first night. You know, they would have realized what she had sooner if she had been in the States. But that being said, she would have still been dismissed. So. So that was very like hearing from a distance, hearing her whole experience was kind of mind boggling to me. And I was, I remember being like, well, I just got to keep my periods not super painful. I don’t know what I would say. I mean, obviously, I couldn’t do that. I would take ibuprofen when the pain got really bad. I did start taking one or two days off of work. And that’s when I was like, OK, this is this is affecting my lifestyle. Like, I had to accept it. And then it was when the pain was getting so bad by my late 20s. And by then I think it was right before Lar had discovered that the Center for Endometriosis Care, which is in, which is in Atlanta with a great surgeon, that that’s when I was like, OK, you know, I think I’m going to have to do this, too. So it was a whole year after Lar had her excision surgery that I got it done too. And I have stage two endometriosis. So a significant amount of endometrial growth in my body, but obviously nothing to the extent that stage four would have. They did remove my appendix, funnily enough, because they did see endometrioma cells on my appendix. So I still remember, it was like they had given me that like horse tranquilizer right before my surgery. And then they come with this clipboard and they’re like, oh, just sign here. It basically says, we’ll take your appendix if it looks kind of weird. 

And I was like, oh, you know, I’m high on drugs. I did. I was like. But the other thing that you like for the surgery prep, especially as I told them, I had so much pain around my colon, was there was a potential for colon resectioning which like by the time I was getting my surgery, I had so much pain, I was like, do it. I don’t know, you know, not really thinking the ramifications. And surprisingly enough, I didn’t, I think they found some endometrial cells around my colon, but not to the extent that they had to do any type of resectioning. So I was very lucky in that sense. And like Lar, since that surgery, I have not had that pain. When I go to the bathroom, the pain is definitely instead of being like a 10, it is now during my period, it is like a 3 or 4, nothing to the extent where I feel like I have to take off work or just lie down. Ah, I don’t even need to use heating pads, which is kind of amazing because it’s like I feel like I always had to use those beforehand. So definitely Lar kind of paved the way for me. We we both grew up knowing somewhat what endometriosis was. We had heard it because our mom had kind of self diagnosed. But we it to us that just meant like literally you just had painful periods. And so it wasn’t until Lar did all her research and she was telling me about it. I mean, I for me, I think maybe it was because of ballet. Maybe it was just growing up as a woman in the 90s, as a teenager. Like, to me, it was just like deal with it, press it down, kind of what Lar said, not being in touch with my body in the sense like I always use tampons, so I won’t even have to, like, feel myself bleeding, you know, like all that stuff. And then.

Yes, so similar to what Lar was saying, like pushing the pain down, trying to ignore it or just like, quote unquote dealing with it. To me that was like from that all the way to, like, even using tampons all the time instead of pads. So I don’t feel myself bleeding and stuff. And it wasn’t until my pain got so bad. And I think my, I was just so inflamed. Every time I was on my period, I could almost, I couldn’t really use tampons or if I did, I could only use the light tampons. And before we went on birth control, I think we went on, I can’t even remember. I think it was in our later teens and it was mostly for acne and it didn’t do anything for me. But once we started birth control pretty consistently, our periods weren’t super heavy. But when we first our periods first started and we were doing ballet so much, our periods were so heavy. I remember classes were like an hour and a half to two hours and I would have to use the bathroom at least once or twice to change out like a super tampon. But by the time it got to my surgery, which I think I was 29, I can’t do the math right now, but late 20s. I wasn’t even able to use tampons at all. So that’s, I mean, that alone, I was like, okay, something’s more serious here, but yeah, just the whole experience. I mean, it was traumatic. Lauren and I, actually one of the similarities we did have is after surgery, we both got post operation infections, which even our surgeon, who was a great guy, he was like, oh, you have less than one percent chance of getting a post up infection. And I remember Lar had gotten one after hers. And I was like, oh, I bet I’ll get, I’ll get one too. And the doctor was like, no, no, no, there’s no chance. Totally did. And once again, it was that that experience of being dismissed. I remember the doctor they kind of put me with after the surgery. It’s not the surgeon. You know, I would constantly call him because my, I had this low grade fever that just won’t go away. And something felt wrong. I think this was like a week and a half after my surgery. And I would call the hospital and be like, this is, I would call the doctor and say, you know, this isn’t right. Why am I having a fever? I can’t really keep food down. And I remember he just kept saying, oh, this is part of, like, surgery recovery. And he would brush it off and brush it off and brush it off. And then finally, I was talking to my mom. I was like in tears. My mom was like, that’s it. We’re just going to the emergency room. And sure enough, they like, there was an abscess. They had to drain an abscess. And I was in the hospital for another three days, which in the US, being in a hospital for three days is a long time, like Lar was in the hospital for two weeks. You know, the NHS, that’s a long time. But like three days in the US, they try to get you at a hospital as soon as possible. And it was just recovering from that. And I remember it. And the antibiotics that I had to take from that probably made me feel much worse than any surgery ever did. And I couldn’t eat. But you had to take the antibiotics and stuff. So we both, Lar and I both had that experience, too, which was us, so we, our recovery took a lot longer, I think, than most women. But just, you know, that’s another example of being kind of ignored, like after you’ve been through this very intense surgery. And like knowing your body, knowing like this doesn’t feel like just a recovery. Something’s going on. Like, my head felt like I was on fire 24/7, I think from the fever and just being dismissed after having gone through all of that, you know, and it, it just blows my mind. And then even today, like Lar was telling you, you know, I’ve had male and female gynaecologists. Before my surgery, I would tell them I had endometriosis and they would always say the same thing like Lar said, just take birth control, take pain meds. And then even after I had my surgery where I was like I have proof I have stage two, you know, and I would tell different gynecologists. I specifically remember when he was just like, oh, yeah, that’s oh, that’s rough. Like, that was literally the response. It wasn’t like, okay, well, like we understand that you stayed on birth control to kind of manage that and, you know, talk. There was there’s no discussion. I even had, I have some scar tissue. I think it’s up towards like the top of my vaginal wall. So it makes penetration with sex very painful, like full penetration. And that I didn’t start feeling until like six months after my surgery. And I remember going to the gynecologist and just, like, crying, because I was like, I don’t know what to do about this. And like the for some reason, it wasn’t my normal gynecologist. It was another woman in the practice, who was like, I think a robot. And she basically was like, well, you’re just going to have to get surgery again for that scar tissue. And I was like, but cutting away scar tissue causes more scar tissue. And she’s like, Yeah. And that was it. She was just like, you need to talk to your, and this is after and in the US, like our surgeon wasn’t covered by any insurance. He was outside that. So you’re paying so much money. I mean, a lot of women can’t get the surgery in the first place in the US because they can’t afford it. Their insurance obviously is not going to cover it. Or they cover a specific surgeon who maybe doesn’t do full excision surgery. They just do ablation and that’s not getting to the root of the cause. So, I mean, there’s all these things where you’re dealing with this medical world, too, that does not want to support you at all. But then, like, when you’re going to a gynecologist who’s supposed to be, you know, knowledgeable and be focused on female bodies, there’s like there’s it’s more like indifference than anything, which just blows my mind. 

Le’Nise: I mean, I’m nodding along as you’re talking and everything you’re saying. I am. I keep thinking it’s just trauma and then more trauma and. I want to know, everything you’re going through now. And I want to talk about the company you founded to help women have better periods. But before we talk about that, I just want to talk about how you have gotten past or if you’ve gotten past the trauma of the surgeries and everything and dealing with the various doctors and medical professionals who questioned professionals who dismissed your pain or tried to downgrade your pain.

Lauren: Yeah, I would say that I’m still working through that trauma in a lot of ways, I think it’s almost been one of the unexpected advantages to starting a company sort of about period pain is I’ve had to think about my experience more, which has been hard, but also a really positive thing, because otherwise I would have reverted back to my usual, just push it down, don’t think about it. And I still like, I think on a day to day basis, like now Cath and I talk about it so much and we have a whole community of other women who have endometriosis pain in Atlanta, but just also online and just talking to women about their period pain in general. It’s so like life affirming and empowering in some ways because you don’t feel alone. You realize everybody is different. You know, you experience pain differently. Even if I talk with another woman who has stage four endometriosis, their experiences are completely different. So there’s, there’s so much good that’s come out of this, too. But Cath and I still talk about how before we go to gynecologists, even for just a normal routine exam, like we’re like we know we’re gonna cry in the office. Like, I don’t generally especially you, Cath, I don’t think you’re a big crier, but like, I just know I feel so vulnerable in that situation. And even if I talk through with my gynecologist and I usually bring my surgical like photos, like photos from inside of my body and I’m like, this is what I had. I’ve had the experience like Cath, where it’s still sort of worn off. And so you just always feel the sort of vulnerable existence when you’re in the doctor’s office and that you have to fight like, okay, I need to get my fighting face on because I need to make sure they believe me. I need to advocate for myself. But at the same time, I’m not completely over the trauma that’s happened to me before. So I know I’m going to feel really sort of teary eyed and then the doctors aren’t going to take me seriously and all this stuff that’s usually still was playing through my head. So, yeah, I would say I’m still working through the trauma, still working through some of that pain, but there’s been a lot of positive having to go through it. 

Catherine: And I think the other thing, too, is that it seems sort of like the dark ages, but like any an gynaecologist you go to, their focus is on fertility. 

And if they you know, they they, most gynaecologists have very little experience or got very little education on endometriosis. My guess would be the same with adenomyosis and PCOS and all the other things, PMDD. And to them, it’s at least the ones that I’ve met, it to them means potentially could affect your fertility. And so even when I try to have these conversations with the gynecologist, they always turn it around to like, well, I think you could get pregnant, or especially now, since we’re with, like, geriatric moms if we ever got pregnant. Right. We’re 37, 36, 37 in two weeks. We’re 36. And so, like, when I go to the gynecologist, every discussion, it’s always like, do you want to freeze your eggs?

Which in the States takes I think it’s like at least $20,000 to start out and like they talk about it so casually, like everybody has that amount of money, but also that that’s always how they focus on your body as basically as a baby making machine. And it I feel like even the surgeon too who we loved it, it’s still like he’s very used to having the conversation around fertility. Like, how does your endometriosis, how will that affect your fertility in that kind of thing? And both obviously, neither one of us have kids. We’re not. Neither one of us have decided whether we want kids, even though, you know, it’s getting a little late for us. But to me, it was always like, no, I. I want to focus on fixing my body first before I could even think of having, you know, a parasite. You know what I say? I was like, why? Why, why am I going to focus on kids now when, like, I’m in so much pain? But it’s just funny. The whole like the whole dialogue around it, even at doctors offices, even if they like, you know, kind of ignore your pain. It is always about fertility and how you’re basically worthy as a woman because of your level of fertility. That’s how I see it. And like Lar, I always have to prep myself before I, actually have my annual is on Monday. And I know, like, I’m going to get there early, I’m going to do breathing exercises. I’m going to be ready for the doctor to just dismiss me. Ah. You know, I want to talk about freezing my eggs again, even though I told her last time I saw her I was like, you need to write down in my file do not talk to me about freezing eggs. And even when I said that, even when I met with her last year, she was like, Really? Are you sure?

And I was like, come on, lady. You’re educated, listen to me.

So, like, it is still is like it’s something we deal with. And I think Lar said starting Semaine has kind of forced us to have those difficult conversations and revisit it. But I think that’s very healthy and something that we need to do. And it’s been so empowering and hearing other women’s stories and knowing that we’re not alone. And the fact that we could we could create this thing with Lar’s husband that actually helps women through their pain.

Le’Nise: What you’re saying about having to prepare to go and see your doctor, to see your gynecologist. I, you know, I think it’s really important because in an ideal world, we wouldn’t have to do that. We could go and our doctors would have the time to spend with us and have the time to ask questions and really figure out what’s going on in the moment. But certainly in the UK, there’s 10 minutes and you have to make the most of those 10 minutes. But I love what you’re saying about, you know, you do your breathing exercise. You’ve got your notes. Lar, you were saying you take the photos of your prior surgery. You know, you you you tell them to refer back to the notes you ask them to make on your file before. I think all of those are really important for women to remember. They have to go in prepared and be prepared to advocate for themselves. And if they don’t feel comfortable doing that, bring someone with them who can do that for them. I want to go on to talk about your company. So is it Semaine? Because I’m thinking French Semaine means week or how do you pronounce it?

Lauren: You’re completely right and you’re saying it correctly. As Americans, we say Semaine. So, yes, it is. It is the French word for the week, but, we, we, we. But you’re an American French. Oh, yes. That is the name in it. It came from from the fact that the supplement that we created, which is a plant based anti-inflammatory, is just for the week of your period or whenever you have the most pain on your cycle. Generally, even women who have sort of pain throughout their cycle, that might be the worst pain is during ovulation, maybe or maybe it’s right before your period. But for me personally, I’ve always been really bad about taking supplements continually. And so when Matt, my husband and Cath when we were creating this, I was like, I am not going to take something every single day. I won’t remember. And I don’t like the idea of having to take a pill every single day, even if it is all natural and plant based. And so because we were focusing on the inflammation aspect of period pain, rather than balancing hormones, making sure you have more estrogen or less estrogen, we we could really focus lowering that inflammation when you need it the most on your period. So in general, this is something that I had no idea about before we started Semaine. My husband did, he’s a research scientist. He has PhD in bioengineering, that on your cycle over the course of 28 days, roughly. Of course everybody’s different, but that your immune system sort of works that quickly as well. So when you’re moving into your ovulation period, your immune system pulls back a little bit, just in case you are you have foreign DNA that enters your body, you know, and you’re impregnated. So your immune system’s like, okay, we don’t we don’t want to attack that. Let’s pull back. And then if you’re not, if you’re not getting pregnant, your immune system kind of comes roaring back in the next two weeks and reaches its peak as you start to bleed. And a lot of the times with that immune system, that that causes a lot of inflammation, that your immune response and inflammation is connected. And so those of us with painful periods, not just with endometriosis, but with just painful periods in general, you’re having sort of a stronger immune response and more inflammation. So the thinking behind creating an anti-inflammatory is we’re lowering that inflammation levels So it’s all about, you know, like helping your body do its thing, have its period, but with sort of supported help of lowering the inflammation markers that are happening and causing a lot of pain. And that has been tremendously helpful for me because I know I was always sort of nervous about taking different things that regulated my hormones because there’s not a lot of research behind endometriosis, behind PCOS, behind any of these period related conditions. I think there’s not a lot of understanding of exactly how our hormones are sort of out of whack and that that can vary from person to person. So I really wanted something that could address the pain without having to be like, I don’t know, is my estrogen too high? You know, a lot of people do think endometriosis is estrogenic. So there is a link there, but they’re still not sure. I mean, again, because this is a, quote unquote, woman’s disease. The research is starting now. There’s a lot more research than there used to be, but there isn’t a lot of you know, there hasn’t been in the past. And just generally in medical history, you know, there hasn’t been a lot of research on women. I think a lot of people probably heard that that study about how women experience heart attacks different than men. But the symptoms we’re taught to look elsewhere are the symptoms that men usually have. And I remember reading, this is a study done like, you know, ten or fifteen years ago on cervical cancer. And they they tested the drug just on men who don’t have cervixes, you know, so it’s like. It blows your mind when you learn about this stuff. We were like, wait, you have to be doing these studies on women. And a big reason they don’t do the studies on women. And then prior to human subjects, why they don’t do it on on like female rats is because the hormones and having menstrual blood is very complicated and it complicates the results. And you’re like, yes. But the people taking it 50 percent plus are going to be people who have menstruated at some point and have these complex hormones. I, even when I was in the hospital actually in Edinburgh, it was a female doctor who was super sweet. But I remember at one point she said, you know, it be so much easier for us to figure out what was going on with you if you were a man, because all your bits are on the outside. 

And I was just like wait what? What is it? Oh, my God. Like, this is the extent of of medical knowledge. Sort of like really a big community. I was like, we don’t have a chance in hell. Like, how is this, this is like the the response? In starting Semaine, we’ve learned that up to 80 percent of women have painful periods in their lifetime. So this isn’t abnormal. You know, it’s like everybody has has pain and you experience at different levels. Definitely our stories are a little more acute. And having endometriosis is is something that not all women have, though. More than 10 percent of women do have endometriosis. So none of these things are super unusual. And the fact that there aren’t hardly any pharmaceutical drugs specifically for women’s pain or even a lot of like natural things that we can do on the market right now, is really telling to me the fact that women’s pain isn’t taken seriously. If there’s, if PMSand endometriosis and all those conditions were something that men experienced, we’d have gobs of research. We’d have so many, you know, if they’re 5,000 pills for erectile dysfunction but nothing for, you know, period pain specifically, except for maybe Midol or Pamprin, which hasn’t changed in the last twenty five years. Something’s wrong. Something’s broken with with innovation in health care for women. 

Catherine: I always think of that line in the show Veep. 

Did you ever watch it? I don’t know. It was. I don’t know if it would come if it was in the UK at all. Because it is very specific to the US. But it’s the main character at one point. She was like, you know, if men got pregnant, you could get an abortion in an ATM by now, you know, and that’s what I always think about. It’s like it’s like it’s so true. What I think is so cool about Semaine is that so, Lauren and Matt, after Scotland, they moved to Seattle and that’s when Lar was especially, even now, when we get cramps and stuff, I think we’re a little triggered by experiences before we had our surgery. So even though we know the pain is not going to get as bad, it’s still very triggering. And so Lar’s husband, he’s a scientist. He has a PhD and was working for the University of Washington at the time. And he started doing research and reading up on white papers and peer reviewed papers on anything that could possibly help. So he started getting all these like extracts like in powder form and adding them to her smoothies. And it was I always joke that like the few times I would like go and visit them and see had all come to their kitchen. They had all these like jars of random powders or things going on. So he played around with the formula, I would say like that two years. Right. So and Lar was telling me how much of a difference it was making and I was like, send it to me because I, you know, I’ve been in Atlanta this whole time. And they literally sent me, it was a jar you sent me like a little scoop. And with like Lar’s handwritten instructions like how many scoops they should put in a smoothie each day. And I remember the first period I had using it, like my pain was reduced so much. And when I was and it wasn’t until we started talking about it, we were like, well, if this works for us, then maybe it’ll work for other women. And that’s how it got started. Like literally from them having a kitchen full of jars with powders in them. 

Le’Nise: Wow. And so then you found that this worked for you. And then what was your, talk about the process of getting it onto the market? 

Lauren: Yeah, that was that. That’s been a long journey because we started, Matt and I started testing those different plant extract powders. So it was like powder of green tea and curcumin. And I feel like those people have maybe heard of us as far as being good anti-inflammatory as are antioxidants. But we were testing other things, like some thing called resveratrol, something called boswellia, which is from frankincense. Matt had been doing research at the University of Washington about chronic inflammation and aging. So that’s how it was sort of in his mind already about like maybe we don’t address hormones, but we address the inflammation that’s happening every month when you’re on your period. And so after about two years of trying this and Cath and I being the guinea pigs, we opened it up to a larger test group of about 10 women who had period pain. So a couple of them did have endometriosis, but most of them just had general period pain. So not just pelvic pain and cramps, but maybe they got migraines or leg pain. You know, there’s lots of different types of pain that are associated with getting your period. And we had really good results from from that test. And so after getting those results, we’re like, okay, let’s start this as a business and let’s see if we can launch this as a product. And so originally it was, we were just putting the powers in pills ourselves, but we found a manufacturer and we, Matt and I quit our jobs in Seattle, moved to Atlanta, where we’re now living with Cath, so fun. And we focus on this full time. And we started an Indiegogo campaign in the fall to just sort of raise awareness and also a way to raise a little bit of money, but mainly to get sort of the name out there and make sure people are hearing that we’re doing this thing for period pain. And then in February of this year, we launched full time. And so right now, we sell Semaine directly from our web site: semainehealth.com. But we’re hoping to branch into retail so it’s more readily available to everyone. We do ship internationally, but most of our subscribers right now are in the States just because international shipping is really expensive. But we’re hoping, you know, eventually to expand and we could have distribution centers in the UK and Australia specifically because we get a lot of great feedback from those countries. But that’s how that’s how it started. It was literally trying to find something to fix my pain. We weren’t thinking of it as a business at all. But then when Catherine was like, it’s working for me. And the woman we had in our study was like, yes, you need to make more of this. We were like, OK, we want to help other women. You know, it was such a relief to have less painful periods, the fact that we are now helping other people have less painful periods, like I couldn’t ask for a better purpose in life, really, because I just never thought that was possible. I don’t know if it was because of years of being told that, oh, this is the only thing you can do. You can go on birth control. You can take ibuprofen. That I just thought that was kind of it. It didn’t even strike me that, why aren’t there more products out there for women? You know, and I think it’s such a great time now because people are talking about periods more openly. You have this wonderful podcast where people are talking about their first periods and hearing the differences and those stories are amazing. I think it’s so great to normalize those conversations. And I think that will change the way innovation help, that happens around women’s health care. Just the fact that, you know, people are making organic pads or reusable menstrual cups and like all of like The Honeypot Co. I don’t know if that’s big in the UK yet, but it’s here in Target that, you know, having said feminine care wipes like that, you know, something that’s in like the vernacular that we growing up, you know, we’ve never talked about that sort of thing, you know, and that wasn’t on the shelf at Target. And now you see that and women are interested in trying more natural solutions or just any solutions to try to make their periods better or more manageable and not this hush hush taboo thing that you can’t talk about.

Le’Nise: I think it’s incredible what you you both have done. And I love that you you took an issue that you had and you then created something that would not only help you, but would help loads of people with the same problems. So amazing. I can’t wait to see it here in the UK, but to round up our conversation. You both have said so many amazing things. What would you want someone to think to take listening to the podcast, to take away from what you individually have said? 

Lauren: Such a great question, Le’Nise. I would say, as hard as it is always trust yourself and advocate for yourself. You do know your body better than anybody else. Better than any doctor. Better than anybody in your family. Being in tune with your body and knowing something doesn’t feel right. Push your doctor, push your health care provider to give you answers. If I had known that when I was younger, I know I just always assumed, oh, this person went to medical school and is a doctor, they know way more than me. If something was wrong, they would tell me. And I think, you know, doctors are amazing and they’re great. And I’m so glad we have the health care available that we can go to them. But that doesn’t mean that they know you better than you know yourself. Listen to your body if something feels wrong, you know. And also listen to yourself and not just assume that because one treatment works for one person, that that’s what you need to do. I think a lot of the time in the health and wellness space, we’re like, oh, I found this diet that cured me of this thing. You know, my endo is so much better because I stopped eating gluten. That is amazing. And that works for a lot of people. But that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s going to work for you and you have to do that same thing. If birth control works for you, if you need to be able to take that in order to get to day to day life, you know, do that. Don’t ever feel ashamed because people are pushing a certain solution on you. I think that’s so important. 

Catherine: At the same exact thing, reiterate, advocate, advocate, advocate for yourself. I think that’s the big thing. 

IF I could go back in time and talk to my 12 year old ashamed self with my period, just giving myself grace, but also telling myself, like, you know, trust yourself and be comfortable with your voice, especially when you’re with doctors. And then the other thing. What Lar said exactly, we’re identical twins and we’ve had very different experiences. You know, I compared to Lar, I eat garbage, you know, like I’ll eat fast food. I love I love to drink Coke. But Lar is much healthier than me. And part of that is driven by the pain that she had and kind of the PTSD left over from her experiences. But for me, diet does help. Absolutely. Without a doubt. But if I had just started looking into not just endometriosis but period pain and seeing all these like wellness warriors who can, you know, eat just kale for a day and, you know, that works for them, that I would feel kind of alienated from that. So I think reiterating what Lar said, like you figure out what works for you and then give yourself grace. You know, you’re not going to be this perfect pinnacle of health and you’re gonna have bad days and good days and and just celebrate the things that do work. But, yeah. That that some women don’t want to use tampons or don’t want to use hormonal birth control. And that is great. But some women would do. And that’s also great. So giving yourself grace and and figuring out, like Lar said, become an expert of your own body and what works for you. 

Le’Nise: Thank you so much. I honestly feel like I could talk to you guys for another hour. It was just so brilliant.

Lauren: Thank you so much, Le’Nise. So much fun.

Le’Nise: You mentioned the website URL before. Can you just mention it again? So listeners know where to find out about Semaine.  

Lauren: Yes, thank you. It’s semainehealth.com And we’re also very active on Instagram. So and that’s just @semainehealth. So thank you so much , Le’Nise. Yes, that’s where you can find us. We’re there all the time. We also have a chat on our web site, and that’s us answering questions. We love when people pepper us with questions about Semaine. So please feel free to do that.

Le’Nise: Thank you so much.

Period Story Podcast, Episode 34: Camilla Hansson, Period Pain Stopped Me From Living Life Fully

On today’s episode, I’m happy to share my conversation with Camilla Hansson, the founder of the CBD brand, Camilla Organics. Camilla shared the story of her diagnosis with endometriosis, her healing journey and what led her to launch her CBD business. And of course, we talked about her first period!

Camilla says that she looked forward to her first period because she felt that it would mean that she was nearly a woman. She said when it finally happened, she was quite excited about it!

All the way through her teens and into her mid 20s, Camilla had what she called perfect periods: no pain, no mood swings. In her mid 20s, she says she started to get excruciating, painful periods that sent her to A&E on several occasions.

Camilla says that she started to become afraid of each of her periods and she felt she couldn’t live her life fully because of the pain. Listen to hear how Camilla found a path to healing.

Camilla says her experience led her to an exploration of CBD and then to eventually found her own company so that she could help other women in the same way that CBD helped her.

Camilla says that it’s important for anyone suffering from period pain and endometriosis to not give up hope and to keep educating yourself and trying new things. Thank you for coming on the show, Camilla!

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CAMILLA’S BIO

Camilla Hansson is the founder of Camilla Organics, a company that provides premium CBD products made for women.

Camilla started the company after suffering from painful menstrual cramps and found that CBD was the only thing that gave her relief. Before starting Camilla Organics, Camilla spent years working as an international model and won the Miss Sweden competition in 2014. Camilla loves health and wellness and has studied nutrition and natural medicine at the College of Naturopathic Medicine in London.

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SHOW TRANSCRIPT

Le’Nise: Welcome to the show.

Camilla: Thank you for having me.

Le’Nise: So let’s start off by getting into the story of your first period. Do you remember what happened? And can you share it with us?

Camilla: Yes. So it happened where I grew up, which is in Stockholm, Sweden. And I think I was about 12 or 13 years old. So I remember a nurse coming into our school telling, telling us all about, you know, periods. And around what sort of age it would happen. And then I also remember some of my friends telling me that, you know, they have received their periods. So I sort of knew that it would happen some at some point soon at that age. And I remember sort of looking forward to it, almost like I remember thinking that, you know, once I get my period, that means I’m sort of a woman. And so I saw it in quite like a positive light then and also. Yeah. So when it happened, it just felt quite smooth, natural. And I remember being quite excited about it, actually. 

Le’Nise: And so you were excited. And what happened next, so when you actually got your period? Were you, did you speak to anyone right afterwards? 

Camilla: That’s a good question. I’m pretty sure I told my my, mother about it. And so, you know, we went out and we bought the pads and, and then. Yeah. I mean, it’s in our family, it’s not we don’t talk so openly about these sort of things. So I think it was more just like me talking to my friends more like about what they were doing and their experiences. And so it was more like, you know, a little bit of a like a rumour going around, like this is how it is. This is what you should do. So I think that’s where the education came from, a little bit, from my school, because I must say in Sweden, the education system is very good. And then just, you know, just by talking to my friends and, you know, we’re just trying to figure out what it is. Yeah. And how to handle it.

Le’Nise: And you said that the education is quite good in Sweden. And did you find that you, so you live in London now, if you think about the way that people talk about periods and menstrual health in the UK, how would you compare that to the way that you learnt about it in Sweden?

Camilla: Well, I think it’s I guess it’s still a taboo topic everywhere. But in Sweden, they’re not so afraid to bring those subjects, to be honest. Even today, you know, like women talking about it on social media. Swedish women, it’s just like one of these things. I think Swedish people can be quite outspoken. And, um, so. Yeah. And like I said. So it was, I don’t know how it would have been compared to the UK. But like I said, in Sweden, it was quite good in terms of the school bringing in, you know, like nurses and even the teachers of telling us about it.

Le’Nise: The openness around the way that you learnt about your period translated to the way that you felt about your period? So feeling really open and being able to talk about it?

Camilla: Yes, I think I think that makes sense that it would be like that. But like I said, so like early on, I didn’t have an issue with it. For me, my issue is if that’s the right word, around periods actually came later on in life, like more like it. Like late mid 20s, late 20s. So up until that point, you know, my my periods were perfect. Like, I didn’t even have mood swings. Like I didn’t I didn’t feel a difference just because I was on my period. And I remember everyone talking about how bad they feel on their periods. And I just thought, oh, but I just I just feel the same. But then I can’t say exactly what happened. But then, yeah, around my mid 20s, I started getting excruciating, painful periods. Like, I remember, you know, I was going to the A&E several times and just, you know, that couldn’t really do much. Like, they just gave me strong painkillers that didn’t really work very well for me. And I remember just like trying acupuncture, you know, herbal medicine and all these things that I really do believe in. But for some reason, it just didn’t really help me at the time. And and it really started to like, you know, ruin my life because I was so afraid of each of my periods. You know, I knew that, you know, I knew that this dreadful time was to come for me and and, you know, just to have that in your head all the time was like very stressful. And I just really felt that couldn’t live my life fully. And there was such a big part of my life that I was missing out on because I was at home, you know, in pain. And I just felt like there was something really wrong with me as well. Which makes you I don’t know, it it affects how you see yourself. So I really I really, really struggled with my periods for a few years in my mid 20s. And then, yeah, so I, so when I did go to a gynaecologist, eventually he said that he was almost sure that I had endometriosis because he found like a cyst in my ovary and his solution was to do surgery. But I always felt that I don’t know, I just I’m I’m very scared of doing things like that. And then also I’ve read online that even people who do the surgery, it comes back because you haven’t actually healed the root cause of why it’s happening. So. So what happened to me was that, so I tried everything. And then eventually a friend of mine who’s a doctor who lives in Denmark gave me some CBD. And I think a lot of your guests of your podcast talked about this from what I seen. So which is good, actually. You know, it’s good that we talk about it because if people are really suffering, you know, then it’s it’s good to share your experience and you know what’s helped us and maybe it can help someone else. Yeah. 

So basically, a doctor friend of mine gave me some CBD. And one day when I was in a lot of pain, I took some and it was it was like a high strength, like 16 percent. And. And basically, miraculously, the thing was just gone like after 20 minutes, like, I actually couldn’t believe it.

And because I wasn’t sure whether it’s, you know, because time had passed that I felt better or if it was the CBD, you know, I just I took it another time. I remember it was at school at CNM where we both have studied. And I just remember feeling so much pain. I just didn’t know what to do. Like, I couldn’t move. But, like, I. I even thought, like, how am I going to get home? I can’t even go down the stairs to take an Uber. And then obviously, like, as fate had it, well, not obviously. But as luck would have it, this girl next to me, I saw her taking some CBD earlier. And so I asked her if she, if she could give me some. And she did. And then exactly the same thing happened like 20 minutes later. The pain was gone for the rest of the day. And so so this thing kept happening. Right. And so I was like. This is interesting. Like, there’s obviously something here. So I started reading about online, but there was very limited, you know, there wasn’t really any research about it. And, you know, women’s, women’s health is an under researched topic. In any case. And. But I just I felt really strongly liked that this is there is something here. So and obviously my passion in life is natural medicine, holistic health, wellness. So I was I was looking for a business to start in that area at the time. And then, you know, I came across CBD and I had this experience with it. And I just felt like I wanted other women to know that this was something that could potentially help them. So, yeah. So then I developed the product. 

Le’Nise: But before you go into your business and starting the business, I want to talk more about your journey to your endometriosis diagnosis, because what we know is that it takes an average of between 7 to 10 years to get a full diagnosis for endometriosis. Talk about how you, you’ve said that you explored lots of different avenues until you finally got a diagnosis from that doctor who then wanted to do the surgery. Talk about how long it took you to get to that point. 

Camilla: Yes. I mean, I think now the doctors, it feels like they’ve become a little bit more knowledgeable about it. But I’m not, I’m not sure. But in my case, when I did go to the emergency, to be honest, he did sort of mention endometriosis. I never heard about it at that time. But he was like, “Painful periods, yeah, probably endometriosis.” But, but still. Yeah. I mean, he just gave me some painkillers. So how long did that take? I would say I would say maybe three through to six months.

Le’Nise: Oh, OK. That’s very, very, very fast.

Camilla:  Yeah. Maybe I just went, you know, maybe in the UK, they’re quite good. Just went to the right people. But yeah. Yeah. When I said period pain, their immediate reaction was probably they said endometriosis. Yeah. 

Le’Nise: And to go then to have the level of pain that you have to go to A&E and you describe that moment when you were at college where you weren’t able to even get up. That’s, that’s I think it’s when we talk about pain, I often say this a lot with my clients is that we have to describe the pain because pain can be so different depending on the person. But, you know, even if thinking about that, the pain that you were in to have to go to A&E, that must have just been an incredible amount of pain for you to even take the step to go there. 

Camilla: Oh, yes, exactly. Because, I mean, I remember I was actually living with a friend at a time and like she just like, she was watching it. She just she couldn’t believe it. Like, I was on the floor screaming, you know, like my pain was 10 out of 10. Like, I, I, you know, I think at some point I fainted. And it was really like, you know, you really want to die, basically. And I tried to take painkillers and everything, but it didn’t work for me. Like, it just didn’t. Nothing worked. One thing that worked a little bit was to take a very, very hot bath and put a lot of magnesium salts into it, because obviously magnesium relaxes the muscles on, you know, the muscles contracted in the uterus that makes it painful. But no, it was very, very painful. And then to have that fear all the time that, you know, my period is coming up and, you know, I’m not gonna be in this much pain again. Like to live in that constant fear and not, you know, also imagine, how do you plan your life when when when you know that you’re going to be in that much pain? I mean, you have to obviously plan your life in terms of like, OK, I’m going to have my period, so I’m going to have to stay at home. I’m not going to book anything and not any work, etc.. And just for me, it really like took over my whole life, like it was the only thing I could think about, you know. 

Le’Nise: And you got the diagnosis and then you started exploring CBD as a potential solution. You mentioned those two moments where you had tried it. And yes, I’ve had I think I’ve had about three. I’ve definitely had four or five guests on the show who talked about CBD, whether it’s been their business or actually using it as a as a tool to manage period pain. And I, I am personally getting more and more fascinated with it because it’s just the the amount of things that the that it can work on the areas that it can work home from pain to anxiety to depression. It’s just, it’s just mind blowing. In your your business, so you started. You had this experience and you decided to start your company, Camilla Organics. Talk about your journey as an entrepreneur, from having this idea and then going into actually developing the business.

Camilla: Yes. So, you know, so like I said, the pain kept happening. And then I kept taking the CBD and the pain kept disappearing. So I started looking into, you know, as much as I started looking into it. And I read online that, you know, they’ve used cannabis, which ultimately is, you know, CBD comes from the cannabis plant with the hemp plant, but it’s the same family. And they’ve used cannabis in Chinese medicine for, you know, hundreds of years to treat menstrual cramps. And, you know, we know that Queen Victoria was using it for menstrual cramps. But, you know, this is very limited information. 

Le’Nise: And I didn’t know that Queen Victoria, so did she smoke the cannabis or?

Camilla: Interesting question. I just can’t picture it. I just, I just read articles that her doctor talks about, you know, how fantastic cannabis is for menstrual cramps and how Queen Victoria was using it. And I don’t know if it’s more of a rumour, but it’s it’s. But I don’t know how she was taking it, to be honest, it doesn’t actually say any of the papers I’ve read. But that’s an interesting one. And so and so when I started, it really wasn’t much information. There wasn’t even a lot of people sharing their stories, you know. But I just felt like, I knew that CBD helps with inflammation. And so I thought, OK, well, obviously period pain has to do with inflammation. And, you know, now when I read on it, I you know, CBD helps relax muscles in the uterus and we have receptors for CBD in our bodies and especially in our reproductive area. It’s actually the second highest place in our body where we have these receptors for, you know, endocannabinoids like CBD. And but my journey to actually start the product was I just felt that I wanted to talk more about this topic. I wanted to share my experience to that because I felt like that could potentially help other women. And so I wanted to bring out a unique product that would support women during their periods. And so I you know, I’ve studied natural medicine, but I, I still didn’t feel completely qualified to put it together myself. 

So I went to a CBD developer whom I met at CBD sort of exhibition event who is so passionate about CBD and his whole life, CBD and his life work. You know, he’s been studying cannabis for like 20 years. And so he also has a manufacturing company now. And so he developed the product for me. He put together the herbs that we put into it, the strength of the CBD, which is 15 percent. I was, but I felt very strongly that it had to be at least that percentage for it to have an effect. And and we put in specific terpenes. And so together, these ingredients have something called an entourage effect where they become more powerful together than if you would take each one of them on on its own. And so I gave it to, was about 100 women who suffered from period pain. And the feedback was incredible. Like more. It was more if I felt that it was like more effective people taking it for PMS and menstrual pain than for anything else that CBD can do, like, you know, like sleep or anxiety. It was just the feedback from menstrual cramps and PMS was especially good. And so then I just felt really encouraged to to to to go out with this product. And so I did.

Le’Nise: You did this survey of a hundred women who got really. They gave you really good feedback. And did they say that it was something that they wanted to continue using as part of their period or menstrual health toolkit?

Camilla: Yeah, no, exactly. I mean, they said that, you know, because of the product, they can go to work. Now, they don’t have to be bed bound. And some of them, like me, had also tried, you know, everything else without success. And and and, you know, yeah, they had some of them had some sort of like the pain was, is gone after a few minutes. But, you know, everyone reacts to CBD differently. It’s like it’s like any kind of medication or product, like what works for one person doesn’t necessarily work for another person. But overall, the feedback was very, very good. And like me, like, you know, it’s like the number one product during your period. For them as well. 

Le’Nise: As I was saying earlier, I really, I really love CBD and I use it during the first couple of days of my period. I use it all across my abdomen. And it’s just, it’s just so, it’s so powerful. And what I love about it is that it’s a growing area. And the industry, because it’s so new, you see a lot of female entrepreneurs in this space. Whereas, you know, in other industries, it depends on the industry, but it can be more male. But this is very much seems like very female, certainly now. Talk about your, your experience being a woman in the CBD industry.

Camilla: Yeah, no, you’re right. I, I met a lot of incredible women in this space who have their own CBD business. I don’t know if it’s because somebody it feels like it can help us women especially because, you know, maybe we suffer more from these things. Like I mean, I’m not sure, but I’m just guessing like, you know, maybe we need that extra support because of our hormones and mood swings. So, yeah, it seems like women especially are just so passionate about it. But no, it’s been really good being a woman in this space. And like I said, I met a lot of incredible people and I felt a lot of support, both from women and men. I’ve had definitely, you know, men especially, also helping me in terms of supporting me to make this happen. And, yeah, I think it’s it’s just been it’s been really an interesting and good journey. And I think, like being a woman has, I know some people say, like they find it more difficult being a woman in business, but I’ve never actually felt that like I’ve never had that experience where it’s like, oh, because I’m a woman this person talks to me differently in a business meeting. I think, you know, if you want something to happen and if you believe in your product, you’re just going to make it happen. You know what I mean? Like, you can always find those negative things and excuses and this and that. But at the end of the day, people can see if you’re passionate about what you do and if you believe it. And. And so I’ve never, I’ve never been a person who let something like that hold me back. Like, I mean, you know, I’ve always just gone for what I believe in and made it happen kind of thing.

Le’Nise: I want to talk a little bit more about your, your story with your period right now. So you went on this journey with endometriosis. You’re using CBD as a tool to manage your period pain. How do you feel about your period now?

Camilla: So now because I’ve learnt more about my body and periods, I actually try. I work for myself. So I’m blessed in that way that I actually try to make sure my schedule is a bit slower when I have my period, you know, because I feel that my body is a bit more tired. I’m not, as, you know, alert. I’m not as happy, unfortunately, in some ways. And so I just feel like it’s better for me not to put in maybe like my most important speeches during that time. And I try. It doesn’t always work out this way, but I try to just, you know, work from home those days and take a little bit more easy, not be a social. And because of that, I actually quite enjoy it. It’s like it’s time for me to just recharge a little bit more. And I actually don’t have painful periods anymore. I’m sure it’s a combination of factors. But I I’ve also heard other women say this, that if they take CBD regularly, like every day, then, you know, it can help not getting that excruciating pain to start with, you know, because you have the CBD in your body. And I also feel like it has a healing effect. So I actually don’t get, like, pain anymore. I definitely get mood swings like I can, I feel very unbalanced. But then again, you know, I think CBD helps with that because it helps you feel more balanced. So definitely helps my mood. But I just try to take it more easy, you know, and in that way, I enjoy it more. Well, rather than trying to do the same things that I do when I’m not on my period, that just really, really overwhelms me and stresses me out, actually.

Le’Nise: You found a way to, to find a balance with your period where the pain has reduced, it doesn’t dominate your life anymore and you’re in a place where, you know, you actually kind of enjoy those days because you slow down. I know people listening will say, well, I have period pain. Tell me what you did. Tell me. Tell me more about the CBD.

So talk a little bit about the products that you’ve been that you’ve been using to reduce your period pain.

Camilla: So for me, the things that worked for me apart from CBD a little bit is, you know, magnesium to take it early, but also to do, you know, let’s say you’re in a lot of pain. I would say, you know, if you don’t have CBD, you just take a super hot bath with a lot of Epsom salt or magnesium salt in it. 

That was the one thing that helped me a little bit, to be honest, before I came across CBD and then obviously just, you know, manage stress, like, you know, if you can meditate, you can do yoga, just, you know, try to reduce stress because also stress will create more, potentially more cramps and pain in your body during your period. And then. So, yeah. So I think for me that’s that’s been like those three things like, you know, maybe magnesium and then to lower my stress levels during my period so I don’t feel overwhelmed. And then CBD, you know, like. But then I would say, like, if you’re going to try CBD, like make sure it’s a good strength. Like I would say personally like 15 percent strength. Because what also happens is like people go and buy like a one percent strength CBD and then it doesn’t do anything and then they discredit CBD. So you always need to make sure you buy a really, really high quality product that’s also high strength. That’s that’s if you’re going to try it. Which I would suggest, because if you’re really suffering from something like menstrual cramps, it is a good thing to try. And I would try taking it every day for maybe three months. Like, for me, it worked instantly. But I think, like any herb, like, you know, or any supplement, you should really, you know, give us three months and take it every day. That’s what I would suggest to try. Yeah.

Le’Nise If someone listening has period pain, you’re saying try and get some CBD with at least 15 percent strength. And when you say 15 percent strength, is that the amount of actual CBD in it?

Camilla: Yes. Yeah.

Le’Nise: And how do you recommend that people take it? Do you take it topically? Do you take it orally? What do I do? What do you recommend? 

Camilla: No, that’s a good question. I personally just take the CBD oil orally and it does the job for me. Then of course, I know some people do suppositories. And I think that probably is very effective because it goes directly into your, you know, into your reproductive area. And balms I’ve heard are effective, I’ve never tried that myself. So I’d be curious to try that as well. But. But for me, the oil just does the job. So we’re definitely going to expand our product range. But for now, because I feel, you know, it does what it needs to do. I’m quite, I’m quite happy and confident just doing the oil for now that you take orally.

Le’Nise: Yeah. Okay. So in your range, you have you have an oil and people can take that or orally and do you suggest taking it under the tongue?

Camilla: Yes. So you have to take it under the tongue because that’s where it gets absorbed the best by the body. And then you wait like one minute before you swallow. And that’s how the oil gets absorbed.

Le’Nise: OK. OK. That’s interesting. I personally have never taken it taken CBD orally, apart from I’ve had some CBD tea, which was nice. I don’t know that it did anything. I usually take it topically, as I say, all all over my abdomen. And it’s incredible. It’s like literally I feel the difference, within about five, five minutes. Wow. Yeah. It’s I just I just love it. And I never thought that I would get into CBD. I remember when I was, even like a couple of years ago, I was really sceptical about it. But now I’m a complete convert, which is probably why I have so many guests on the show to talk about CBD. 

Camilla: You’ve attracted them to you.

Le’Nise: Yeah.

So if people want to find more out more about your product, tell us more about how they can find out about your CBD oil.

Camilla: Well, yeah. So our website is www.camillaorganics.com. And our Instagram is @camillaorganics. So they can, if they want to know and if they have any questions, anything, you can just either email us or send us a DM. We’re happy to chat and just for you guys to reach out. Or if you have any questions around CBD or the products, you know we’re here to help, to educate. So, yeah, I’d love to hear from your followers there. Or they can send me a, you know, an Instagram message at @camillahanssonofficial. I’m happy to chat there as well. And yes, so for now, we sell, we sell the products online on the Web site. 

Le’Nise: OK. And thinking about your story and your journey through period pain, endometriosis and to where you are now, if you could leave listeners with one thing, one little nugget from everything that you’ve said. What would you want that to be? 

Camilla: That if you are suffering from something like endometriosis or menstrual cramps, that there is still hope. You know, I like I have. I was suffering from that. And and, you know, I have found relief like I’m not, it’s not something it takes over my life anymore. So I, just don’t give up hope. You know, keep keep trying things. Keep reading about, keep educating yourself. And I do believe, you know, that that that there is relief out there to be found. Even though I know it’s like it’s a it is a very complex disease. It’s a very serious disease. I don’t want to minimise that. But I can say that, you know, I have it and and and I’m not in pain anymore. So I’ve found ways that works for me. And and and I hope that, you know, if your listeners are suffering from this specific issue, that they will, too, and that there is hope.

Le’Nise: There is there is hope. I think that’s a really inspiring message. And I love that you left us with that with that message because I think definitely that endometriosis, as you say, is a complex disease. And what I’ve seen is that sometimes people, the pain dominates their lives and they can feel hopeless. But so for you to say as if someone with endometriosis to say that there is hope and to talk about your own inspiring journey is so, so powerful. Thank you so much for coming on the show. It’s been brilliant to have you here.

Camilla: Thank you so much for having me and letting me share my story. Yeah. Thank you so much.

Period Story Podcast, Episode 33: Kaysha Thomas, Focus On Health, Not Weight Loss

Period Story Podcast Episode 33 Kaysha Thomas

On today’s episode of Period Story podcast, I’m so happy to share my conversation with Kaysha Thomas, the nutritionist and Pilates teacher. Kaysha has a special focus on eating disorder recovery, body image and diversity, all of which we talked about  in this episode.

Kaysha says she got her first period at around 9 or 10 and she took it all in her stride as she had already learned so much about it in school. She said that going to an all girls secondary school made conversations around periods and body changes easier and normalised.

We talked about Kaysha’s work with eating disorder recovery clients. She says there’s a whole group of men, women and children out who need to hear a different narrative about eating and body image, where the focus is on health, not weight loss.

Kaysha says that feeding ourselves is the ultimate form of self-care. I love that! We also talked about diet culture, the anti-diet movement and how the messages from both camps can be very inflammatory. We also dove into emotional eating  and some of the cultural messages we receive about this.

We talked about the rise in people not wanting to talk about weight loss for fear of being attacked for not loving their bodies. Kaysha says that there’s a culture of toxic positivity, especially on social media and that we need to remember that there are people with individual experiences behind each post.

Kaysha says that you don’t have to love your body all the time, it’s okay to feel neutral and indifferent or not even focus on your body at all! Thank you for coming on the show, Kaysha!

Get in touch with Kaysha:

Website

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KAYSHA’S BIO

Kaysha is a Registered Nutritional Therapist, Pilates Teacher and blogger working to make mental wellbeing accessible and inclusive. Kaysha covers topics such as eating disorder recovery, body image and diversity issues within the wellness industry. She studied at the Institute of Optimum nutrition and BASI Pilates UK and is currently studying for a Masters in Sport & Exercise Nutrition.

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SHOW TRANSCRIPT

Le’Nise: On today’s episode, we have Kaysha Thomas, a registered nutritional therapist, Pilates teacher and blogger, working to make mental health and wellbeing accessible and inclusive. Kaysha covers topics such as eating disorder recovery, body image and diversity issues within the wellness industry and is currently studying for a M asters in sport and exercise nutrition. Welcome to the show. 

Kaysha: Thank you for having me, Le’Nise. 

Le’Nise: So let’s get to the first question I always ask, which is the story of your very first period. Can you share with us what happened? 

Kaysha: Yeah, so I started my period quite early. I was still in primary school. So I think I would have been 9 or 10 when my period started. And I remember being ready for it, as in I have had the conversation and I knew it was coming. I knew what periods were, I think I’ve been very fortunate in both of my schools that we’ve talked about. We talked about sexual sexual health, but we talked about, you know, menstrual cycle and sex education. So we had all that information quite early on. Back then in my day, it was done in primary school. So when my period started, I was expecting it. And I just remember waking up one morning and it had started. 

And I just said to my mum, like, it was kind of like “the time has come. My period has commenced.” In a like all loud, like God, like voice. 

I felt like I just came into the world like, “Mum, I think you find I’m a woman now. Could you pass me the pads?” That’s pretty much my story. 

And I think I feel very, very aware that my first period was a pleasurable, pleasurable, maybe a bit far, but it was a nice story. Yeah. 

Le’Nise: Nine or 10. So, I’ve interviewed other people who have said that their period has come at that age. And they said that they didn’t feel ready. So I feel like that’s quite different hearing that you had spoken about it at school. And so when the time came, you were ready. Talk about how you learnt about it at school. 

Kaysha: So this is where it gets a bit hazy because I remember just always been the talk about periods. So we we knew that periods were a thing and that they were coming, the actual education about you’re going to have a period is what you need to do came from my mum, but it was initiated from my auntie. So I started developing breasts. And I think this is like the signs that say, okay, Kaysha’s getting boobs now. Clearly, if her periods haven’t started, they’re on their way soon. And my mom’s was and is quite a young mum, hadn’t thought about having a conversation with me. And it was her younger sister, my auntie, that said we need to speak to Kaysha about periods. My mom was kind of like my mom kind of is now was like, “oh, I haven’t done that conversation, although I have to do it.” And then I remember her, I remember quite vividly sitting on her bed on the floor, at the foot of her bed and her telling me about periods at. And she was telling me, it wasn’t news, but I didn’t know about the care, so I didn’t really know. But some of the things that she told me wasn’t quite true. And I think that was kind of old information. So I remember, one of the things you told me was that when you when you’re on your period, you can’t wear trousers and you have to wear a skirt. And to this day, I didn’t understand why she said that, because I couldn’t understand ‘why would I not be able to wear trousers?’ And I’m quite a sporty girl. I was quite a sporty girl and I still am in some ways. And so I didn’t really wear skirts. And I didn’t like that information. I was gonna ask, like, ‘can I still wear my cycling shorts underneath?’ So anyway, we had that conversation. But she was talking to me more about the care. 

So like getting a pad, changing the pad regularly and stuff like that. So. Yeah. That’s pretty much how I was brought up to speed on what to do and what periods were. 

Le’Nise :And when you got your period, were you the first of your friends to get it? 

Kaysha: And this is interesting because yes, I was, but it wasn’t really talked about. I don’t remember it being like, “hey, you’ve got your period, you haven’t got your period.’ It was yeah, I think I was definitely on the first of my friends. I remember a few other friends getting their periods in primary school as well. But it wasn’t this it wasn’t a thing that we’ve really talked about, which yeah, again, I think is quite interesting. I know there can be a lot of stigma around that, who started, who hasn’t. I don’t remember it being the focus at school, but I remember it being again, like another little announcement that you say in the playground. “Oh, yes. So my period started.” “No way!” And and that was as far as it went.  Yeah. 

Le’Nise: Did you feel different in any way to your friends after you got your period? 

Kaysha: I would say it was more the fact that I developed early that made me feel different. The period wasn’t the thing that made me feel different. It was the fact that I had quite large breasts at quite a young age. And that got me a lot of attention from both boys and girls and not always in a positive way. I think that was the thing that made me feel most different. 

And, you know, also the fact that I was, I loved running and I saw these boobs is a look, it’s painful when you know, they’re budding, just coming through, just so painful. And I just remember thinking, this is this is this really sucks. I’ve got to, like, grow these things. I want to run faster. This is what I’d run. And it hurts now. I don’t think we had sports bras these days, or at least I didn’t have one. So it was like a whole, yeah, that was that was more my thing. Like kind of ‘why do I have boobs now. What, what are these. Why?’

Le’Nise: And how long did it take you to come to terms with what was happening with your body?

Kaysha: I would say by secondary school, my secondary school was an all girls school. By that time, it I felt really comfortable with everything, you know. I was by that point, you know, eleven years old settled into my menstrual cycle, was regular. 

Weirdly, didn’t wear a bra for a long time. I would wear a crop top. This is a conversation my mom neglected to have. Was was didn’t didn’t remember to have me. I wore crop tops for a long time. So that was the only time and again I felt quite different. 

I mean, it was like PE. We get undressed and I have my crop top on and all these girls had their bras and they’re like, “Kaysha, why don’t you have a bra?”

I was like, “what? Why do I need a bra?” Bearing in mind, I’ve had boobs for like nearly three years at this point. But yeah, I felt very comfortable, having those, not comfortable, but it feels a bit more normal. I think so. And like I said, there are no boys around so it makes conversations like that a lot easier. 

Le’Nise: You said it was easier to have those conversations. Did that did that contribute to how comfortable you felt with your period and your body? 

Kaysha: Yeah, I would say so. I definitely would say so. And I think it just it just was normalised, I think is how I would describe it. It wasn’t you know, it wasn’t so much something that I had to really focus on because it was just so normal, like, you know, somebody needed tampons, we’d give them tampons. If somebody didn’t have their pad, we’d give them a pad. And it was just very, very normal. You know, we had, I remember there was one girl in my school who had issues. She had really, really heavy periods, actually. And, um, she had a few sort of accidents at school. And, you know, that that sort of gets around, it was kind of like a gossip, but it was more out of, ‘oh my gosh, is she okay?’ It was very you know, it is very sort of um. Yeah. It was very holding in terms of periods. I think, I’ve again, really blessed in the schools that I went to and the way that we were educated about this stuff. And I think that is really, really important. 

Le’Nise: Yeah, it’s very different to the experience that some of my other guests have described of feeling shame or feeling different. Yeah, it’s so it’s very yeah. It’s very, very different. You should be feel very blessed. 

Kaysha: Definitely. Yeah. I definitely am. Yeah, and I think a lot of the conversations I have now with my clients, a much younger generation for the most part, they didn’t have that, they weren’t even really taught, you know, how to look after their vulvas, let alone how to manage their periods. So it kind of I was kind of taken aback when I said we had I mean, I remember it was my friend’s sister came in and did a talk for us. This is in secondary school. Teaching us about like hygiene, feminine hygiene and how to, you know, telling us that, you know, sometimes or for the most part try to go to bed without wearing any underwear. 

Let your vagina breathe.

And so that’s something I’ve always remembered since secondary school. And I run a nutrition group at the clinic, the eating disorder recovery I work for. And I was yeah, I just kind of realised that, gosh, how lucky am I to have had these conversations because a lot of young girls don’t. 

Le’Nise: Yeah. They really don’t. And there is so much so much shame around periods. And I’d say that 90 percent of the guests that have come on have talked, used the word shame or discomfort or feeling different when they’ve talked about how they first learnt about their period. 

How would you describe your relationship with your period now? 

Kaysha: I would say I have a, I wouldn’t go as far as love / hate because I wouldn’t say I hate it. I mean, I do definitely have this thing where I have to slow down when my period is is on its way and when it’s around, those first two days of menstruation for me. Nowadays in particular and for the last I’d say few years. I can’t. I have to really slow down and have to take it easy, the first couple of days are quite heavy. The second day is very painful. 

So this is when, despite my plans, I have to take time out and I have to think about I even think about how I schedule my private clinic because I won’t overload myself in this week. So you know, the work I do is quite is quite deep work. You know, I’m talking with a lot of trauma around your time of the month. Yeah. You know, you’re very sensitive. You’re very emotional. So you have to be so cautious and really think about your own self care in terms of how much you load yourself up. And I, I have to say this information that wasn’t given as a child. And this was something that I learnt in my in my womanhood. 

Le’Nise: So you adjust your work to where you are in your menstrual cycle and you slow down. Right before your period and. Right. And during your period. How does that change when you’re ovulating? 

Kaysha: I think it’s only, quite literally, only those first, so I would say the week leading up to. And then the first two days is the only time where I need to make adjustments. Other than that, I couldn’t, this is going to sound terrible, I couldn’t tell you where I was in my cycle otherwise. 

I just know when it’s coming. I know. 

And it’s beyond that. I think it’s really interesting that this sort of, I saw that you made a post about sort of creativity and your cycle. And I was I actually, that’s interesting. So I guess I mean, I’d be quite interested to learn more about that. Yeah. I don’t terribly I don’t pay much attention to the rest of my cycle. 

Le’Nise: I think that it was worth thinking about is the what the inverse of what you do around your period. So around ovulation when typically energy rises. So I was thinking about when you teach Pilates, do you notice a difference then? Are you able to do longer holds or do more? I don’t even know any of the names of the Pilates poses. But the one where you’re in the V and you’re holding. It’s like…

Kaysha: The teaser?

Le’Nise: Yeah. Yeah. That one. Yeah. Can you hold that for longer, those sorts of things. Look at the difference between your strength and your energy around ovulation and then compare that to how you feel around your period. 

Kaysha: I’m really interested to have a look at that. And there’s a I think she’s a nutritionist, a lady called Stacy Sims and she’s done a lot of work around sort of energy and period. And in particular, looking at sports performance. When you talked about that particular move, the teaser, that is one that I avoid at all costs because I’m just generally not good at it. My legs are generally very heavy. That’s my excuse anyway. But that is really interesting. And I think you. Yeah. I think you’ve inspired me to really have a look at it. It has been something it’s been on my mind. It’s like, oh yeah, I must look into that type thing. But I’m really curious now to see how that have actually works out for me. 

Le’Nise: I want to shift gears a bit and talk about your work around eating disorders. So you’re trained as a nutritionist, but you specialise in eating disorders, which is quite, as you say, quite involved work involving a lot of trauma. Tell a little bit more about why you decided to specialise in this area. 

Kaysha: Yeah, I would say. I so well, I qualified as a nutritionist almost 10 years ago and my early work wasn’t eating disorder recovery. It was never my intention, not never, definitely wasn’t my intention to go down that route of specialisation. But I was always very aware, despite myself at that point being very much a dieter. 

So what I was doing my nutrition training, what I qualified, when I was first practising, I was still the person who was stepping on the scales to know my weight, went into a gym this many times a week and the rest of it. But I always knew that was never the same advice that I would give my clients sitting in front of me. So when I had a client come to me about weight loss, I would never tackle the weight loss head on. I would do the lifestyle around. And if you come into balance, weight might might change. And if it doesn’t? How does it feel that maybe that might be your genetic blueprint and where your body lies? So it was interesting. I always had this little bit of internal battle between what I was doing with my own body versus the advice I’d give my clients. So then what happened was I started working at the Recover clinic and this was sort of me trying to find my place in nutritional therapy because there weren’t many people, you know, particularly not here in the UK. And this is before I even knew, you know, what an anti diet approach was and all this stuff. I couldn’t really find anyone that spoke my language. I you know, or even thought about nutrition in a way that I did. So I just always just felt quite alone. And that’s when I saw it as I did myself. I looked around, see trying to seek my tribe, and I realised that this is, you know, the narrative that we use within eating disorder recovery. So it happened quite nicely as I was doing that research that I found the Recover clinic or they found me.  I’m not really sure how that worked out, but I started working there and I instantly knew that this is the work I’m supposed to do. This is the work that I want to do. And I think it’s just there’s a whole group of men, women and children out there who just need to hear a different narrative. So, yeah, that’s that’s kind of how I fell into it. 

Le’Nise: Talk a little bit more about what you said about an anti diet approach. What does that mean? 

Kaysha: Yeah, I think so. Anti diet just means it’s not focussed on weight loss. So the focus isn’t the weight loss. The focus is health. And when we say health, we’re talking about mental and physical health. And I think that some I think the mental health aspect often gets forgotten. That’s a bit too harsh, but at least sort of side tracked, let’s say, or sort of. 

Well, what’s the word I’m looking for, de-prioritised. Well, that’s exactly the word I wanted. And so anti-diet just means we’re actually looking at the person as a whole and looking at behaviours around food and beliefs about food and lifestyle factors such as sleep. You know, exercise as well. But in a really balanced approach. And that weight loss isn’t the isn’t the central piece, isn’t the central part of that work. Yes, a person may lose weight on that journey. Some people need to gain weight. And that might be the case on that journey as well. And that’s what anti diet is, it’s just sort of, you know, that that focus away from weight loss in and of itself. This idea that weight loss is the most important thing for health, which just isn’t true. 

Le’Nise: And then your work with women or people with eating disorders. It’s quite specialised and you deal with a lot of trauma. How do you, talk a little bit about how you work with your clients to start to separate their food behaviours from what everything else that’s going on with their health?

Kaysha: You know, I think that the thing I love sharing with clients at the beginning is the idea that when we feed ourself, it’s like the ultimate form of self care. And that blows my mind because they’re often not aware that food to feed and nourish oneself is an act of self care when they’ve been manipulating that for for so many years. 

So once they get that idea that, you know, a lot of their, all of these sorts of behaviours are a form of self harm and that it is just a massive red herring that is distracting them from a much deeper issue. And then an eating disorder sort of very successfully, and that’s its whole, I guess, aim is to disconnect the person from their body. So they’re so disconnected, they’re not aware of the emotions that actually, that they hold in the body, they’re not aware that they’re anxious. They’re not aware of their depression. And we think more from the nutritional side, they’re not aware when they’re hungry. They have no connection to their hunger signals. They don’t know when they’re full, they don’t know when they’re tired, they’re usually always tired, but haven’t even connected to the fact that they’re tired. So all of that. So it’s about bringing the awareness to what the real issue is. And this is why we have this cliche saying where it’s it’s not about food, but it is about the food and it’s the it’s not about the food bit, but that you have to hide them like them, too. 

That is this isn’t about you wanting to be smaller. This isn’t about that. This is about a trauma or an emotional issue that you’re trying to escape from, that you’re trying to distract from, that you’re not wanting to deal with because it’s too painful. And I get that. This is why I love psychotherapists and you’re and you’re using food and exercise behaviours as a way to. Yeah. To sort of just skip out on that sort of work of just looking at what’s really going on. 

Le’Nise: Have you seen a rise in eating disorders?

Kaysha: Yeah. Yeah. It’s going up and it is going up. And I am quite literally probably one of the worst people to ask about statistics. But I looked this one up for this very conversation. And actually what we’ve seen, is that from, say, 2005, 2006, there’s been a 34 percent increase in admissions for eating disorders. That’s a lot. And I was surprised at that number. I knew there had been an increase, but I didn’t expect it to be that number. So we’re looking at seven percent each year. 

I think a lot of that has to do with more awareness around it as well. But it’s the issue is huge here in the UK. And, you know, these are the ones that we know, these eating disorders are so nuanced. And we, a lot of people get missed. People of colour often get missed and often don’t get the diagnosis because it isn’t something that’s considered when they present in a GP surgery. But yet eating disorders like binge eating disorders, which is the second most common form of eating disorder. This is one that people don’t often reach out and get help for, because they think they’re just eating loads, because they they think well, they think that because that quote unquote dieting is actually restriction, but because they’re dieting, then they suddenly have this binge eating. They think it’s to do with this sort of play, the restrict / binge cycle. I mean, they often don’t seek help for it also because eating disorders bring so much shame that a person doesn’t even want to tell somebody about the behaviours that they’re engaging in, which is always a real relief when they come into my clinic and I’m just like, you know, what you’re telling me without sort of them minimising or sort of, you know, trying to take away from their experience. I really liked them to know that this is not uncommon behaviour that you’re talking about, not uncommon with eating disorders. And what what you’re you know, how they present. And it’s always such a relief when they hear that, because I just think that the only ones doing these damaging behaviours. 

Le’Nise: Can you talk a little bit more about the types of eating disorders that you see for people who are hearing what you’re saying about eating disorders and think that and think they might have something but aren’t sure what it is. 

Kaysha: So I would say that over so eating disorders is that although we have all these different ones. You have anorexia, which has different different types of subtypes. You’ve got bulimia. You’ve got binge eating disorder. And then you have and I always have to check because it is it recently changed. But you have other specified feeding or eating disorders. So one that doesn’t come under any of those categories. And so the common thing from all of these eating disorders is the restriction. Every single one of those eating disorders does have a restrictive nature to them. So that’s the first thing. But they all are also very preoccupied, preoccupied with their weight and wanting to be smaller and not really, not really understanding why that is and often not being able to see their bodies for what it is as well. If you think about anorexia, in some cases of anorexia, you can have a mix in different body types. But for talking about anorexia in a smaller body, they don’t realise how small their bodies are. And this is the drive to be smaller and smaller and smaller. And, you know, and there there are always going to be nuances to this that, you know, not everybody is focussed on weight, actually, but for the most part, that’s what you most commonly see. So this preoccupation with food, food is everything. It’s something that they think about constantly. But I mean, like constantly, obsessively, because they’re hungry for the restriction. And and so, yes, this preoccupation with food, but also a fear of food. So not being able to navigate social situations, not being able to sit and have dinner with family and friends because they’re afraid of what this this meal in front of them is going to do to their bodies and it’s going to make them gain weight or it’s just going to make, you know, their thoughts around their body really loud, really heightened negative thoughts around body image and self. So these are these are the common things that I would say that people see. 

And then the other part would be in some cases. So I’m always tempted to say some cases here because I want to make sure that, I want to be I want to be clear that not everybody will experience it the same. But these are common symptoms anyway. Overexercising, so really going all out when it comes to exercising. Exercise being something that they say it’s a non-negotiable. So I have to do this. I have to do this, this, this this and this, regardless of how I feel. Which, again, if I’m going to go back to this whole thing, you know, this whole, you know, linking it in with energy and your period and your cycle, which I think is been interesting. But, you know, a person who is is using exercise as a way to distract from difficult emotions will exercise come hell or high water. It’s obsessive, it’s compulsive. Yeah, and so a lot of their brain space, a lot of that time is just taken up by those things, changing my body, making my body smaller, restricting food, counting this, tracking that, weighing myself, measuring myself, body checking. And it just it just keeps going. 

Le’Nise: And given the work that you do around eating disorders and people really restricting themselves, how do you then, what do you think about this whole rise of anti diet culture, which can be quite strong online, whether it be, you know, people saying things like F you diet culture and really taking it not to the other end, but going really tearing up all of the templates around how we’re supposed to think about our body. 

Kaysha: Yeah. It, you know, it’s this is this thing when you, when you when you see the narrative that is aimed towards diet culture, it’s aimed at diet culture, it’s not aimed at people who are on diets. And so I think that’s really important to sort of to sort of to highlight that is this is the narrative of the diet culture that tells you that smaller is better and that I think, you know, you almost and I get it, I try to be a bit more direct, but gentle, I guess. 

And I tend to swear on social media. I don’t think I hope not anyway. But I tend to be more gentle in my in my approach. 

But I am very direct about the culture that I am, in some ways, attacking or at least protesting against, because that culture is actually quite strong and quite inflammatory in itself. And if and for those who are in the diet, for those who are in that diet culture, so those of those who subscribe to that diet culture, I look at some of the messages that you read there, sometimes I think it’s just it gets to the point where you don’t even know, is this is an eating disorder or is this is a diet now because it’s very disordered, the behaviours that they’re trying to promote. And this is, you know, when you’re when you’re passionate about eating disorder recovery and you’re advocating for a group of a group of people who are subscribing to that and it is quite literally killing them. You do get very, very passionate and you do have to be quite strong in your language about around the diet culture. But equally, they. Yes, it’s that narrative that thinner is better and that’s what we’re attacking. And this idea is not just thinner is better. It’s it’s it’s it’s. Yeah. That your aesthetic somehow have some holds some, some kind of value for your worth, which it doesn’t. Our bodies are our bodies. Our bodies change. And so you’ve got people who live in all different types of bodies. We have fat. We have thin. We have curves. We have muscle. Have you want to label it? We are diverse as humans. And then this idea that diet culture where they’ve got this template body. This is what we’re all striving for, as though it was accessible for everybody. Is that even possible for everyone? You’ve got people literally spending their whole lives trying to achieve this aesthetic, which they may never achieve, or if they do, they’ve done it at the risk of their own physical or mental health. So. It can sound quite inflammatory and it can sound quite I don’t want to say violent, but I can get, I get why people get annoyed as some of my posts and some of those posts because they could take it personally. But it’s because they subscribe to the culture and it’s the culture that we’re attacking, not people who are on diets. I’ve been there myself. I was there for over a decade. 

Le’Nise: I want to ask you two questions, first about what you said about people who are on these diets, who then it’s more like disordered eating. What do you mean by that? 

Kaysha: Yes or no? So it wasn’t that people who are on diets like disordered eating but a lot of the behaviours that they will advise and this is particularly, I would say I’m talking about social media here. So I can’t say what dietitians and nutritionists are saying in their office because but particularly the things that I’ve seen and certainly clients have come to me and been told some interesting things from their health care providers. 

But again, you don’t know where that person was trained. You don’t know that person’s qualifications. But anyway, things like this idea that we have to manipulate our hunger. This idea that when you’re hungry, you need to do all sorts of things other than eat to manage that hunger. This is disordered. This isn’t normal. And if you’re hungry. That’s a sign that you ought to eat. Yeah. You get these ideas of like go brush your teeth, just go to bed earlier, avoid your hunger. Hunger is bad. And this this is disordered. And so it’s not to say that a person who engages in this has disordered eating. I mean, I couldn’t possibly diagnose that. But it’s to say that these quote unquote techniques that they’re trying to prescribe are all disordered. They’re not a normal way of eating. That doesn’t create a healthy relationship with food and your body. And that’s an extreme one, sort of the brush your teeth. But when you’re feeling hungry, I’ve seen that out there. I’ve seen at times and I’ve seen it in magazines. And, you know, this is what people pick up on them. Remember, you know, maybe when you’re hungry, you’re not hungry, you’re thirsty. I mean, if you don’t know if you’re hungry or thirsty, then we need to look at why you don’t know whether you’re hungry or thirsty rather than thinking about manipulating hunger by drinking a glass of water. 

Le’Nise: I have to say I do see that, people not being able to differentiate between physical hunger and thirst. And also people not being able to differentiate between physical hunger and this emotional hunger and eating for emotional reasons. And I, I certainly don’t specialise in eating disorders, but it does. Some of these behaviours do come into my work with my clients, especially this idea of delineating between physical and emotional hunger. Because it’s this in this culture, we get we get taught. Oh, you’re upset. Dive into Ben and Jerry’s. You’re feeling great. Oh have some cake. You know, and so people can’t differentiate to differentiate between this. I’m I’m actually hungry. My body is sending me signs, but it’s time to eat vs.. Oh, I feel sad or I feel happy. So I think that really interesting because we see this sort of programming gets taught at a really young age. 

Kaysha: Even with emotional eating and comfort eating, the way I approach that with my clients, who have not been able to differentiate between emotional hunger and physical hunger. Is that, you know, emotional eating isn’t in and of itself a bad coping mechanism. But if it’s your only coping mechanism, then you need to look at some of a, you know, fill up a toolbox of self care because it can’t always be food. And that’s also not helpful. But, yes, I sort of. And we do see we’ve been conditioned. We’ve seen it on films, we see in the ads. So people see tend to turn to ice cream and they’ve had a breakup. Okay. But what about journaling? What about your mum. But it isn’t to say that emotional eating in and of itself is bad. 

Look, I say it’s just when it’s the only coping mechanism that person has. And because I. Yeah, it’s all about connecting to the body. What is the what is the signal that my body’s telling me? What is my body asking for, ie. rest. Is it water? Is it food? Is it. 

Emotions. 

Le’Nise: And you talked about the difference between diets and diet culture. There are always people there will always be people out there who want to lose weight. And what I’ve seen now in my clinic is that people feel ashamed about talking about wanting wanting to lose weight or feel better in their body. And they feel better when they’re at a smaller size. And if they talk about this on Instagram or any social media, it’s like they get attacked. 

‘Look, your body at any size loved who you are. You shouldn’t feel like you have to lose weight.’ But they say, well, but I just want to you know, I want to slim down. I want to feel better in my clothes. What do you say to that? 

Kaysha: I say I have so many responses and my head just went to so many places. I’m just going to try and categorise and line them up and just decide which way I’m going to go for first. 

I completely sympathise with somebody who feels like they need to be smaller in order to feel better about their body. I think it is, you know, my my go to response to that. And is it is that is not about your body being smaller why you want to feel better about it is because of the way you think about your body. You know, our bodies change regardless. So this idea that if my body is smaller, I feel better. I can tell you now that that is not always going to be the case. A person will get smaller in their body and get to maybe that quote unquote goal weight and still have hang ups about their body because it wasn’t the body that was the issue. It was what bodies they they see to be good bodies. So who were they looking at? What bodies are they idealising and what are they trying to do, mimic within their own bodies to try and achieve, like I I say that might not be available to them through their genetic blueprint, through the resources that they have available to them. You know, have they got time to do all these hours in the gym. Have they got the money to buy those foods that people are advocating and advertising. Sorry. So there’s that. So the idea that, yes, it smaller doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re gonna feel better about your body. Not saying it doesn’t, but not necessarily. There’s a there’s an emotional piece that needs to be there in terms of healing your relationship with your body, whether it’s bigger or smaller. So that’s separate from its size. The other part is I think it isn’t helpful when if somebody says that they feel a certain type of way about their body, it’s not for anybody else to comment on their post and come with what we call toxic positivity of just love your body, because if it was that easy, the person would quote unquote, just love their body. That’s dismissive of what that person’s experiencing. And, you know, I appreciate that when it often comes from people, often it always comes from people who already live in a smaller body. So they have what we call thin privilege. And for that person with thin privilege to tell somebody in a bigger body, oh, you should just love your body, has no idea what it’s like for that person to exist in that body. So to just say that you should just isn’t it’s not that simple because of the weight stigma that that person has encountered throughout their lives, which in itself brings a lot of shame. So when you talk about that shame that they feel about wanting to lose weight and people’s reaction, that shame is also past shames of people making comments about their weight, perhaps, and that can come from childhood. That can come from parents, that could come from, you know, even your health professionals. We have a big thing about weight bias that goes on in our health care system at the moment. So there’s that as well. I mean, you know, if a person if that’s where a person is in their life and that’s all they know, then that’s all they know. And it’s about, you know, my work is very much about meeting people where they’re at. So. Ninety five percent, probably even more than may I maybe go as far as is a hundred actually percent of people who will come to my clinic want to lose weight. So it would be so disrespectful of me to sit there and be like you shouldn’t lose weight because that’s is not that easy. It’s so disrespectful to the whole process of emotional turmoil that they’ve been going through. 

So I think we do have this culture of toxic positivity on social media that doesn’t help. And we kind of have to remember there is a person behind that post. Yeah. And just be mindful of what their experience might have been, existing in the body that they may have. 

Le’Nise: Yeah, I think your words really resonate with me. I have been on my own personal journey with with weight loss and weight gain. And I know even with the work I do, I wouldn’t say I’m 100 percent reconciled with my body. You know, I had messages from when I was quite young about, oh, you know, people meet you and they say, oh, you’ve lost weight. 

Or they say, oh, you’ve gained weight and for a long time, whenever I saw my mother, the first thing she would say would. And it became a joke. It was, ‘How’s your weight? How’s your hair? How’s your teeth?’ Those would be the first things that she would ask me. And that would. That we would. I had to make it into a joke because otherwise I would get really angry. I remember this one time we were I went to see her and I was going through this big emotional time and I had gained quite a lot of weight. And the first thing she said to me was, “Le’Nise, what’s going on with you? You’ve gained a lot of weight.” And we had this huge fight on the street where I said, “why do you always have to ask me about that? You know, can’t you see that? Can’t you ask me about everything else that I’m going through?” So and then for me, it’s been and I’m getting quite personal here. It’s been a real journey ever since. And I know I’m not 100 percent reconciled with with the weight that I am. And, you know, I would be lying if I said that, you know, I feel I haven’t had thoughts about losing weight because I do. So this is where I some of the things that you’re saying on an intellectual level, that makes total sense. But emotionally, I’m kind of like, OK. 

Kaysha: I totally hear you, Le’Nise. Absolutely. And, you know, this idea that this I think even the idea of them. Well, first of all. So I should go back to say that it’s really difficult, that experience for somebody not seeing you and only seeing your weight as as though it were some indicator of how you were. And we do that a lot in our society, too. We do praise people when they lose weight, which which feeds into that narrative of, oh, well, when I’m smaller. That’s a good thing. That means when I was bigger, what were people thinking about me. And it kind of confirms those sort of negative belief that person holds about themselves. That’s really difficult. And I can one hundred percent sympathise with you because my mum to this day does the exact same when she sees me. It’s “I think you’ve lost weight, haven’t you. Oh I think you’ve put on”. 

At this point, my weight doesn’t really fluctuate, so I don’t know what she said. So I mean that’s me. But that’s beside the point anyway. But it is one of the first things that comes out of her mouth. But this is generational. So it’s like we’ve got to think about where they’re getting that narrative from. 

And, you know, it’s not just our mums. That goes way. It’s gonna go way back. Right. So there’s that. But, yes, I hear you, this idea of loving your body. I think it’s a really unrealistic thing. Again, this toxic positivity that we see on social media. It’s not that you have to love your body and be positive about it. You sometimes you don’t love your body, myself included. Some things you just don’t. And oftentimes that’s not because as an issue with your body, oftentimes you just have an issue with something else going on and it gets directed at your body or just sometimes you’re just not happy with, you know, I feel bloated today. And that’s okay. You know, we it’s not about shoulding, there’s are no should here. It’s about thinking about how you want to exist for the rest of your life. Do you want to exist the rest of your life thinking about what if only I lost an extra X amount pounds and that would make everything fine? The likelihood is that won’t be the case? You know, there are going to be days like I say that you love your body, there are going to be days that you don’t and there are going to be days where you’re just indifferent. And I’m very much now doing a lot of work with my clients about feeling neutral about their bodies, because our bodies aren’t who we are. They don’t tell. They don’t tell you anything. I have a real issue with focusing on the body. I’ve had to focus on my body literally all my life. I’ve talked about, you know, breasts at a very young age. Got a lot of attention for that. I was always very athletic, very muscular. Naturally, I get a lot of praise about that. Lots of comments about that, this is just my body, it is not a commodity. I don’t, I mean, give me compliments, like, please. I love it. But it’s this idea that it somehow is it’s something to be praised all the time.

And actually, I think to myself. Sometimes I think of people, are they seeing my intelligence. Are they seeing other parts of my personality or they just seeing my body? That’s difficult. And so and that goes on no matter what your body shape is. That can’t be the thing that people see you as. And it’s about that internal what you have to do as well to think about, okay, I am more than my body. What are my values? What would I tell my what I tell a client sat in front of me? What would I tell my daughter? What would I tell my sister?

Le’Nise: Yes. So thinking about everything that we’ve talked about on the show today, if you want a listener to leave, take one thing away. What would you want that to be? 

Kaysha: I would say. The word that always comes into my mind, and I think the word that I’m really drawn to at the moment is being authentic and thinking about what authentic health means to you. What’s within your genetic capabilities, what’s within your resources of time, money, your mental capacity. So just being really authentic with yourself and just being, you know, really self compassionate in that sense, this idea that, you know, everybody can afford to do the stuff that diet, culture and wellness industry. I would even go that far, prescribes, isn’t isn’t available to everybody. It’s not even suitable for everybody’s palate. 

So it’s just that, you know, that being authentic. 

And also, you know, as a person who comes for Caribbean heritage, I don’t see any Caribbean food in in these recommendations. 

You know, that whole thing of this. Like what? What brings you joy? And then, you know, just honour that. We are and this is a little bit deep, but genuinely, you know, we’re here for a short amount of time we’re not here forever. So really thinking about what do you want to spend your good brain power and time on this earth doing? And I think you find, you know, from a personal point, I already lost ten, fifteen years of my life to trying to manipulate my weight. I refused to do that any further from now. I had to do a long healing journey and just a little self compassion. And it’s ongoing work. It’s not overnight. I still have to do that work. It’s never going to end. I still have to, you know, read. I still have to meditate. I have to do self care things, tools, my body. So, you know. Look after your mental health and your physical health. Your mental health, you know, shapes your physical health. 

Le’Nise: There’s this great Nora Ephron quote where she talks about if she could go back, she would be wearing a bikini. From the age of like twenty one to thirty five, you know, so it’s like this. Just wear the bikini. Wear this swimsuit. Go on the beach. 

And you know, you don’t want to look back thinking, why did I just lay there in my clothes while everyone else was having fun. 

Kaysha: Yeah. Oh I love that. Absolutely. 

Le’Nise: So where can listeners should find out more about you and your work? 

Kaysha: So I’m more active these days on Instagram @kayshathomas. I have my Web site, www.kayshathomas.com. I half laugh there because I’m just like I’m not blogging anywhere near as much as I should be, but that’s what my Web site is. 

That’s where you’ll find details about me. And then as of next week, my YouTube channel as well. So I’ll send you the link, Le’Nise, and you can link it up in the show notes, as they say. 

Le’Nise: Yes. Yes. We will indeed link it in the show notes. Thank you so much for coming on the show today, Kaysha. It was really interesting and illuminating speaking to you.

Kaysha: Thank you for having me. I really enjoyed it, Le’Nise. 

Period Story Podcast, Episode 32: Mika Simmons, We Need To Talk About Desire

Photo credit: Ruth Crafer

On today’s episode of Period Story podcast, I’m so happy to share my conversation with Mika Simmons, the award winning filmmaker, actress and founder of the Lady Garden Foundation and the Happy Vagina. Listen to hear a really tender conversation about navigating trauma and loss, and of course, the story of Mika’s first period.

Mika says that her mum was so excited when she first got her period and threw her a little party to celebrate. This lovely start was unfortunately not mirrored at school, where she was teased and bullied for getting her period. Listen to hear Mika talk about how this led to a time of confusion and pain.

In time for #gynaecologicalcancerawarenessmonth, Mika shares the story of losing her beloved mother to ovarian cancer.  Mika very poignantly talks about how she was able to heal after this seismic experience and how starting the Lady Garden Foundation was a part of this healing. Listen to hear about the incredible work the foundation is doing to raise awareness about gynaecological cancers.

We talked about body image, self-pleasure, orgasms and the importance of female desire. Mika says that it’s important to get past the discomfort of having these conversations and that by starting small or what feels comfortable for you, we can start to find a vocabulary that feels right for us. Thank you so much for coming on the show, Mika!

Get in touch with Mika:

Instagram

Lady Garden Foundation

The Happy Vagina

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MIKA’S BIO

Mika Simmons is an award-winning film maker, actress and host of The Happy Vagina.


Mika has worked on a diverse range of creative projects for stage and screen, including Frenchman’s Creek (ITV), Unforgotten (ITV/PBS), the BAFTA award winning Falling Apart (Ch4) and Film London’s Balcony, which won the Crystal Bear at the Berlin Film Festival in 2017.  Most recently, she can be seen in Dictynna Hood’s Us Among The Stones in competition at the BFI London Film Festival in October 2019.


In 2019, Mika’s directorial debut Rain Stops Play short film won Best Comedy at Houston Film Festival and was nominated for Best Comedy at the BAFTA qualifying CBFF Wales and Portobello Film Festivals; UnderWire and Fragments Film Festival in London. 


Mika’s latest project, The Happy Vagina is a podcast showcasing a huge variety of heartfelt, honest, uplifting, fun and personal experiences. In a world where the word ‘vagina’ can feel taboo or make some feel uncomfortable, The Happy Vagina Podcast opens up a dialogue about fundamental issues, experimentation and lack of education around women’s experiences and gynaecological health; aiming not only to educate but also entertain and enlighten listeners in a supportive and empowering way. Mika possesses an unmatchable capability to relate to and understand people, and is a poised and self-assured interviewer who, when necessary, brings a great sense of fun to any interview.


In 2017 Mika was chosen as one of 40 inspirational British women to front L’Oréal Lancôme’s powerful women campaign.


Mika is also a co-founder of Lady Garden Foundation & Mental Health Mates.

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SHOW TRANSCRIPT

Le’Nise: On today’s episode, we have Mika Simmons.

Mika is an award winning winning filmmaker, actress, founder of the Lady Garden Foundation and The Happy Vagina. Mika has worked on a diverse range of creative projects for stage and screen. Mika’s latest project, The Happy Vagina, is a podcast showcasing a huge variety of heartfelt, uplifting, fun and personal experiences. In a world where the word vagina can feel taboo or make some feel uncomfortable, The Happy Vagina podcast opens up a dialogue about fundamental issues, experimentation and a lack of education around women’s experiences and gynaecological health, aiming not only to educate, but also entertain and enlighten listeners in a supportive and empowering way. Welcome to the show.

Mika: Thank you so much. It’s so good to be here. Good morning.

Le’NiseLet’s start off by getting into the story of your very first period. Can you remember what happened? Can you share with us what happened?

Mika: I mean, Le’Nise, let’s just drive straight in the deep end.

 I was watching May I Destroy You last night. I don’t know if you’ve been watching it, but there’s an episode where she has sex with a new man and she’s on her period. It’s extraordinary. If you haven’t watched it yet, you’ve got to watch it. Everyone is looking at.

I mean, I started my periods really young. When we were away camping. I had an extraordinary mother who was part of the feminist movement in the 70s, and so it was a really turbulent time in a way for women. I think that women were still trying to find out what being a feminist was. And my mother was definitely on the front line kind of pushing things forwards and writing. She’s, you know, she’s written in books and written essays, so, in a way, her kind of attitude, outlook and then kind of power towards life was a reaction to her upbringing and her upbringing, we’re Irish Catholic working class and immigrants to this country. And as immigrants, my grandmother, I feel emotional, my grandmother was a really hardworking woman and an amazing woman.

But, you know, just worked. I don’t think that my grandmother and also the Catholic Church doesn’t encourage, at that time, did not encourage, you know, kind of biological or sexual talk with women. I think many of the reasons that periods and sex is so damaged and shrouded for women and men is because of religion. So my mother was, you know, kind of fighting against what she’d experienced. And so for me, when I got my period, it was like the biggest celebration in the whole world, you know, like there was no hiding it. And then she threw this party for me. We were camping in the South of France and ,I what I remember, I remember being quite confused. I don’t remember. I think I was, I think it caught us all a bit off guard because I was so young.

So I think that, like, I went to the shower and it started and I hadn’t already had a chat with my mum. There’d been no like, you’re gonna get your menstrual cycle at some stage and this is what it’s for and this is how you should love it. And it’s the most amazing thing in the world where life comes from. It was just like, oh, I’m bleeding. And, you know, when I went off and I came back and she’d bought Viennetta ice cream and bought some champagne. Not for me. I was under age.

But she told everyone in the tents around us cause she was just so unbelievably excited about the whole thing. It was mortifying. I did not consent to the party and I do, I mean, I love her for it. And as you will know, I lost my mother to ovarian cancer. So, you know, I don’t have any resentment towards her for her choice. I do also think it’s really important to talk to, you know, all young women and daughters about what it is that they want, because I think that period of feminism was very bullish, rightly bullish. It needed to be bullish when when change needs to happen. When when people have been oppressed for a long time. Sometimes you have to be bullish to move things through. And then you have to come back into being part of a negotiating an in a gentler way, which I think feminism now is so much more. Everyone’s a feminist, you know, like Obama standing on the stage saying this is what a feminist looks like. Yeah. So, yes, that’s what happened and it was tough because I was young and I got teased loads. I was using sanitary towels. The boys at school saw them in my bag. I got really teased for it. I lied and said, I don’t know. They said, “Have you got your period?” I said, “no.” I mean, of course I have, I’ve got sanitary towels in my bag. It was just, you know, it was painful. It was painful and confusing. 

Le’Nise: What did you say to the boys when they teased you?

Mika: I didn’t stick up for myself. I was thinking about this this morning, preparing to come on here. It’s very poignant for me, this stuff around teasing and bullying at the moment, it’s something that I’m working on a huge amount in my personal development in my life, because there seems to have been a pattern for me where I don’t really stick up for myself or I don’t stick up for myself in the right way. So when the boys teased me, I didn’t say anything and I and I and I and I internalised it. Actually, I internalised the shame.

 I felt other, I felt wrong. And I. And I. And actually, it was during a period of time. I had a bit of a bad start in school where I was in a in a local primary school feeding through to a local secondary school. And some of the girls at the the the bigger school were waiting outside my primary school. When I finished to, to threaten me. And I didn’t tell anyone about that either.

And I went to my secondary school kind of therefore on the back foot. I went to my big school really frightened. I don’t know why I didn’t tell anyone. I think the thing is about bullying is mostly you think it’s your fault. That’s really one of the biggest strands through bullying, is that people somehow it’s so confusing when people bully you for no reason that you just basically can’t, it is a weird sort of paranoia where your brain can’t compute why this is happening. So therefore, it kind of must be something you’ve done. So I didn’t stick up for myself with the boys. 

And if I’m honest, what I did this was the thing I was thinking about this morning, is I got tough. So in order to protect myself, I kind of joined, I think when you were bullied. This there’s there’s three options. One is that you fight them. The other is that you completely come away and take another river. And the other is that you that you join them.

And to a certain extent, I joined that kind of crowd of kids that weren’t that kind. So my first couple of years at school, it was only it was only the first couple of years. But the first couple of the years, I would suggest I was kind of quite naughty. And that’s how I dealt with being teased, was I surrounded myself with people who could stick up for me.

Le’Nise: And so you became part of this gang that was not very kind and would bully others, but then did that stop the bullying towards you?

Mika: Yeah. Yeah, it did.

But then I self-harmed. It’s really interesting because I think that within people that particularly children are so cruel, you know, children are so cruel and I think if you end up, I mean, actually at around 14, 15, I really rightsized it all and started to work really hard at school and there was some interventions that happened that brought me back to, I would say, my real self. But during that period when I was like hanging out with the naughty set, I was over sexualised. I was objectified by the boys that we were hanging out with, the boys at school, very aggressive. Obviously, I started my period. So actually, there was quite a lot of sexual energy around me. I was blessed with some quite good looks so I got a lot of male attention. And I’m hanging out in that, I think, you know, children who bully or are naughty or kind of the wayward gang are often in a lot of pain.

They haven’t learnt it yet because they go, ‘I know or I’m gonna, like, bunk off school and not go to gym class and smoke behind the shops.’ They’re in pain. And when we’re in pain physically, our cells that are in pain orient towards other people that are in pain. So that we can feel safe. It’s not safe, but it feels safe and it feels like what we know.

And so, yeah, it did stop the bullying, but I just self-harmed. I drank way too young. I was drinking, you know, and I and I was and I was and I said, as you know, over sexualised. So I had my periods and I was like, my womanhood started age 13. I started you know, I started behaving like grown-up when I was a child.

Le’Nise: What would you say your relationship with your body was back then?

Mika: Really confused. Confused is the most, you know, poignant word. I think the whole time was very confusing for me. My body was being objectified by a lot of men older and my age and therefore and I didn’t understand it. I didn’t understand.

You know, I hope for every young woman that she has the experience where she gets to know her body in a gentle, timely manner. 

And, you know, we’ve been talking about this a lot on my podcast The Happy Vagina about how self pleasure that in order to really have a great sexual relationship with someone, you have to really learn your own body first. That was not my experience. You know, my experience was it was it was a slam dunk.

I was, I was I was like a horse up and running, but before I had had any conversations, you know. Anyway, it sounds like a sob story, but I don’t feel like that about it. I feel that all of that made me the woman that I am today. So I don’t have any kind of resentment or, you know, hang ups around it. I wouldn’t wish it on other people. I don’t I don’t think that it was the best start, but it certainly, it certainly gave me, I went so far that way, most of the time I’ve been back in the other camp since, so yeah, I think everyone has a time when they’re walking in between one camp and another.

Le’Nise: Yeah. And you went, you had that time of being across two different camps, as you say, when you were in school and then when you left school and went on to the next phase of your life, how would you describe your relationship with your your body and your period? 

Mika: Well, I one of the ways that I, you know, thrust myself out of that naughty period at school was like starting to take acting classes, so I had this amazing year head at my school called Mrs Barrett. And she invited my mother and I to go and have a conversation with her. And she highlighted the fact that, you know, I was wearing makeup at school, you know. Oh, I was renegade. And she she was you know, she she said, you know, Mika’s very, very bright and she’s not using that.

And they asked me what it was that I wanted to do. And I said that I wanted to go, there was no drama at my school. So they they got me some some acting classes and I started to compete.

And that really saved me intellectually and emotionally and really changed my life. I would suggest that the pressure on me from that stage on in terms of my body possibly did not heal itself. So many of the other areas healed, but I went from being kind of objectified for my body to wanting my body to be what I saw in the movies.

That that gap. So there was definitely some periods of severe under eating. I wouldn’t suggest that I was anorexic, but I controlled my food for a very long time. Particularly around my drama school years.

And at university, in leading into going to drama school, you know, it’s a huge pressure on in the industry to to be thin and in in the film industry. Sometimes I think, you know, it’s kept me healthy. I love food.

But I do think that there’s many benefits of needing to be fit and healthy and strong for my work. 

And there was a moment when my periods almost stopped. I think that that was probably the worst moment. When in terms of my my eating habits and from that point onwards, I started to eat properly, you know, and then. And then of course, just after drama school, my mom got sick with ovarian cancer. 

So I you know, I had an extremely stressful late 20s. I think I was in a lot of pain and quite, quite heightened anxiety.

Le’Nise: And how did you deal with that?

Mika: Therapy.

Yeah, therapy mostly. It was a, it was a huge shock. I’d just left drama school and got my first kind of big job and I was up and running really, and all of my dreams were coming true. 

And Mum thought she had fibroids or the doctors were telling her she had fibroids. So we we went we went on holiday together. We came back and she was diagnosed with ovarian cancer. And she did get put onto a trial that was a new type of medication, chemotherapy that they thought was going to work. And it did work, but the cancer came back quite rapidly. So she actually passed away nine months after her diagnosis. Yeah. So I was 25 going into 26, so, you know, super young. And I think that had an impact on me and my body. I think I, I really lost my faith over that period. I really lost my faith in life. I had this kind of like, feeling that life was quite a dark thing.

You know, and the, yeah, I lost my faith, I think, for a while.

Le’Nise: Can you tell us a little bit about how you found your way back or if not back to where you were before, back towards something different? Maybe towards a place of healing?

Mika: You know, I think it has taken a really long time. 

I think I feel, I feel it, it’s taken me most of the time since, you know, it’s taken a good 15 years to actually really heal it.

I had a lot of therapy and that helped me come back to a more spiritual way of managing life. And I had a lot of treatment, I had a lot of cranial psychotherapy, which I believe really gets rid of trauma in the body. 

And I think probably the final healing was starting The Lady Garden Foundation because I have a feeling that we don’t fully heal things until we take an action that rightsizes it, so you know, I sort of like when when you fall in love and you break up with someone, you can have completely let go of that person, but I don’t believe you completely let go of them until you meet the next person.

And it is a bit the same with this, that while I’ve done everything I could to heal and let the grief come and then let the grief go. There was an action around the miracle that happened with starting Lady Garden. It really was a miracle that my next door neighbour in the apartment block I live in ended up being Head of Oncology for research into gynaecological cancers at the Royal Marsden, you know, I mean, that’s just a real miracle. Then she asked me if I wanted to do a project with her to raise money.

And for me, I really wanted to do the awareness raising. And I think that was the final, final, you know, the final integration.

 I don’t know if I’ll ever get over it. I would say you didn’t get to you know, I just I talked about this a lot. I, I feel that because I’d only just left drama school. I was still a bit of a child. 

 I think other people at that age are very grown up. They’ve started working since 18 and actually, you know, but I somehow or other was still dependent on my mum. And I suspect there was also a level of co-dependency with my mom because of my earlier experiences.

 I think she was very firmly in my camp. She championed me in a way that was, you know, kind of beyond beyond anything I’ve ever experienced. She really, she was she was my biggest cheerleader, you know, and and so the loss of that at that age was significant for me. And there was a period of time when I was flailing, trying to find where I sat in life until I think the real kind of deep realisation was that it was me I needed to find. I needed to find me and love myself like my mother had loved me and that no one else would probably ever love me like that again.

And that it may not have been that healthy that she did. I don’t know. I mean, I wish I could just say I was thinking about something the other day and just thinking it would be so nice just to ask Mum about that. I can’t. I mean I can in my prayers. Yeah. 

Le’Nise: I love what you said about your mom being your biggest champion. And I love, I have a six year old son and I love, really that I read something once where someone wrote your child should feel like you’re their biggest champion, that you’re always going to be on their side. And that has always stuck with me. And I love that, you know, you said that about your mom because that feeling of always feeling, knowing that someone will be in your corner is so powerful in life, because often you feel like, wow, you know who is actually in my corner. So to have had that experience is so powerful.

Mika: Life’s hard.

Le’Nise: Yes, yes. Yes.

Mika: I mean, sometimes I’m like, what is this thing called life? 

Le’Nise: Can you talk a bit about the Lady Garden Foundation?

Mika: Yeah. So we’re a tiny charity, actually, with a really, really loud voice. When Dr. Banerjee, who is my next door neighbour, asked me whether or not I would do some fundraising to help her explore research into the cancers that I lost my mum to, I said yes. But I said there was an absolute prerequisite that I was allowed to do an awareness campaign alongside it, which is where the Lady Garden campaign came from. And Dr. Banerjee has developed a drug called Olaparib, which has now been green lit, and it’s been rolled up by a pharmaceutical company and it treats women with varying cancer with great results. So that side of it has been really phenomenal. And we fundraised for that by quite high level events. I’ve got an amazing cofounding committee who they love doing kind of fundraisers. So they’re. And they’re amazing at it. I don’t think I’m so good at that part of it. What I’m really good at is using my voice to raise awareness. And the awareness side of it is just absolutely fundamental. So when we started the project in 2014, part of the reason we called it Lady Garden was because we couldn’t really call it vagina. But obviously now you know that it’s a different landscape and the awareness that, I believe the awareness that we started back then has been part of the impact for women all over the world in terms of starting to reclaim our bodies. We started to, we may have given it a nickname, but we absolutely were talking about the fundamentals around gynaecological health. And, you know, and then the Me Too movement happened, which then started a huge revolution in women’s, in women’s bodies and women’s wellbeing. And I think at the moment, one of the things that I’m really interested in exploring and why I started my podcast and the project, The Happy Vagina, is that somehow or other still we are only talking about gynaecological issues or pregnancy in terms of women’s health.

So there’s now a movement towards talking about desire and actually how we integrate talking about gynaecological health in all areas of our life. Because at the moment you kind of get these highlights, you get your period starts, you’re pregnant, your menopause and hopefully not, but you may within that have some illness, gynaecological illness. Most of us have something at some stage, whether it just be from candida through to something more serious like my mother had. And those are when we talk about it, it’s like gynae problem.

And we don’t kind of somehow really talk about that area of our body all the time, like it’s, you know, like we would do about our mental health and there is a movement happening towards integrating it into a more daily kind of chat. I’ve just been part of a book that’s talking about young women and periods and teaching them, which is We Are The Hood. And, you know, so that’s going to be a game changer, you know. But again, the focus is kind of on when you get your period. And I’m just really excited to get women talking more about desire and how to look after ourselves sexually. 

How to look after ourselves in terms of consent. 

How to look after ourselves in terms of, you know, allowing that everybody to be part of our whole being.

Le’Nise: What do you think women need to do if they don’t feel comfortable with these conversations? What do you think they need to do to get comfortable?

Mika: It’s so funny, isn’t it, because I was talking to a really good girlfriend of mine who works in marketing for a huge women’s brand yesterday, and she said, ‘I still find hard to say the word vagina’ and it’s that, it’s just start saying it’s saying it, start talking about it. One of the things that I think as human beings, we do things that we cower together. So identification within friendships is really, really powerful. So if you go to the gym with a female friend and they are hiding their body or go into the changing room. You will probably feel the same shame, we pick up each other’s shame really easily. Just to be super clear, if you want to change in private, that’s totally cool. But what you need to look at is where it’s coming from, if it’s coming from because you’re ashamed of your body, at least acknowledge that and own it. And I think that the identification that we can bring in so we mirror our friends and just to say to a girlfriend, ‘I’ve got candida. I’ve got thrush.’ 

‘I’m struggling with cystitis. My periods are a bit weird at the moment. My period came three days early. I had loads of sex,’you know, like just to kind of start integrating the very light vocabulary and dialogue with your female friends or with your children, if it’s appropriate, or with your partner. 

Just drop it in. Tiny, small things. You don’t have to come out with a big you know, doesn’t have to be a monumental, seismic moment.

I’m now going to talk about periods and vaginas! Sharing in a tiny little way, it’s going to really uncomfortable if it’s something you haven’t done before. Where we’re going to feel really, you know, embarrassing.

Because we’ve been brainwashed to believe that that area of our body is embarrassing and it’s just not, you know, there is an underlying message.

In so many cultures that good girls don’t have sex. 

You know, that good girls don’t talk about this stuff and that we are only lovable if we are a good girl. Well, you know, and being a good girl will stop you from being good to yourself. And also, long term, if you don’t really get to know your body and you don’t share with your partner or friends or whatever is appropriate for you, you may find that you ignore symptoms as something that could be quite serious. 

Le’Nise: So start to have the conversation. It doesn’t have to be small. Start with what feels comfortable for you and then do it often, do it in a way that you can then build up to then having the bigger conversations that are appropriate for you and your body. 

Mika: Also read books. One I still swear by is Naomi Wolf’s The Beauty Myth, which is not just about gynaecological health, but it’s a game changer in terms of understanding why we are sort of hard on ourselves and judgemental of our own bodies and how that actually has come through Biblical text, the media, film and significantly, advertising, the advertising is geared towards making us feel less than and insignificant so that then we buy the products that will make us better. You know, so, really great book. Yeah. And and listen to women talk about these things. There’s so much out there now, you know. Yeah. Find your vocabulary through listening to other people talk about it.

Le’Nise: Find your vocabulary. I really like that. You talked about desire. And this is tied into the conversation about finding your vocabulary, moving away from this good girl image. Or good girl kind of idea that’s drummed into us from when we’re very young. What role do you think owning your desire plays into that? 

Mika: Well, young women out there, there’s absolutely no education at all around desire for young women at the moment. Whereas I think it’s quite normal for parents of young men to understand that young men start masturbating. 

And it’s almost like this kind of God given thing that they can’t help, you know, this sexual energy and power that comes through that means they have to do it. I’m not suggesting that young men don’t go through shame around it. I don’t. It’s not like they’ve got it so easy. But I do believe there’s more vocabulary around young men’s sexual power coming through and that there is absolutely zero, zero teaching around young women’s desire. And I think. Again, just to be super kind of clear on it. It’s up to you. I don’t think you need to start suddenly talking about self pleasure, masturbation or that the moment the millennials are all talking about wanking. You know, for me, that’s not my taste. But I respect them. But it’s about getting the relationship with yourself, with yourself so that you, so that you whatever that is, and it may be that there’s only one person in your life that you talk to about it, and that might be your partner. But dear God, please talk about it. And I really believe that if you don’t, you cut yourself off from that area of your body. And I think disease in the body comes through the nervous system. So if your nervous system is not fully integrated, if you if you feel shame around the area of your body, the likelihood is this is that your mind body connection is probably very disassociated.

So I I really believe that if we don’t integrate the shame that we have around an area of our body, then we kind of get blocked off from that areas of our body. And not only does that mean we probably won’t look out for symptoms if we have any come up. Also might mean that we can’t feel that part of our body as well, which may affect our ability to have an orgasm. Also, there is the potential that not being connected to that area of our body may block energy in that area, probably which there is a suggestion could lead to ill health. You know, there is scientific evidence that’s starting to show that blockages within an area of our body and a blockage can come from not listening to that area of the body. It could be to do with faking orgasms for your whole life. And the reason that you may need to fake an orgasm is because without even knowing it, you have shame around that area of your body. You may not you may not even know that you’ve got shame. You may not know that that’s why. But if you you know, if you if you if you don’t know the irony of what if you don’t know your own desires. If you’re not really fully integrated with yourself as a woman, you’re not free. 

And then your body can’t be free.

Le’Nise: I think it’s also because when we’re younger, we don’t tend to, you mentioned the conversation around boys and masturbation. Girls and masturbation, I remember growing up and having conversations with girlfriends and they would say, well, I don’t masturbate. And I would say, “well, well, why?” And they’d say, “well, I don’t need to.” But when you masturbate, you learn about what you know, what an orgasm actually feels like. You know how to get to an orgasm. And you can bring that conversation into your relationship or any sexual encounters you have. And that’s that element, that’s a way of empowering yourself to get the best out of that situation. So I think it’s really important for women of all ages can get there. It doesn’t, you don’t have to be young. But again, to going back to what you said earlier about being comfortable and starting with those little small conversations and growing there and finding a way to feel empowered about, in your desire and owning your desire. 

Mika: So many women I know find it difficult to get to climax, orgasm. And I, I believe that is because we don’t spend our teenage years practising, whereas somehow there is a, again, really, just to be clear. I think men feel a lot of shame around at that age, too, but they still get on and do it because within media, within films, it may be teased a bit, but it’s still considered normal. And with women, everyone lies about it. No one admits to doing it. I think I said you said I didn’t do it. Someone asked me at university, “Are you doing that?” I thought, ‘no.’ 

You know, it’s just not. Not. We’re not free within it. There are also women who can’t reach climax, and I think it’s really important, to, I don’t know because I don’t know those women. I don’t know whether or not if they did a lot of work on themselves in terms of body release and really integrating, whether or not they would be able to reach climax. 

But I think it’s very important that we take some of the pressure off ourselves to reach climax and understand that sexual pleasure is not just about an orgasm. And if you as a woman, you haven’t managed to reach that point, that’s okay, you just need to enjoy the experience still and not write it off and not over give to your partner. Not deny yourself pleasure in whatever way that pleasure comes in order to make sure your partner’s needs get met. And you don’t. So don’t always seek that orgasm.

You know, it’s not it’s not the essential thing. But open connection is.

Le’Nise: Can you talk about what’s coming up next for the Lady Garden Foundation, for the Happy Vagina

Mika: So Lady Garden Foundation, really excitingly with my co-founders, we have greenlit a piece of research again by Dr. Banerjee into how the COVID-19 pandemic has affected key workers within cancer research. So looking into mental health and resilience and I feel that that’s a really appropriate use of our money at the moment. Alongside also continuing to donate to cancer research into, into medication and continuing to raise awareness around these cancers so that women will go and get checked more often. And then we’ve got hopefully we had to change our run date. We have a run, an annual run that I started. It’ll be our fifth, I think, this year. And. And it was meant to be in April. And we’ve moved it. So it’s going to be in October. Fingers crossed. We’ll see what the government says. Yeah. Lots of just other bits and pieces, fun, fun things going on later. And then I’m just starting to record the second season of The Happy Vagina. And I’ve got an amazing guest list, and I’m really branching out into some other areas. So one of the most fundamental differences is that I’m gonna have men on.

All of season one, I just kept getting all of my male friends that were can be the ones that work in the entertainment industry going, what are you doing? Why are you like ostracising us and being divisive? Oh, no. This is a really divisive project. I get it because obviously with Lady Garden, it’s about gynaecological cancers. One of the reasons I started the Happy Vagina was because I wanted to reach out more into women’s health. And then the men who, like you were being divisive. And I was like, you know what? You’re right, I am. So I’ve got some men coming on who will be talking specifically about experiences that are relatable to women.

So the main focus and story around The Happy Vagina is still around women. So I’ve got George Robinson, who is one of the stars of Sex Education. He’s just joined in season two.

And he’s going to be Maeve’s love interest in season three. I think, although he wouldn’t really tell me. And he’s going to talk about he’s talking about how his relationship to women has changed since doing Sex Education

And also, he had an accident where he broke his neck a few years ago. So he’s in a wheelchair. And so we talk about his relationship to women, which is just fantastic.

And then I’ve got Charlie Condou coming on, who is a gay, three-way parenter. So he and his male partner had a child with one of their friends and they three-way parent. And I’m really excited to hear about that. And then I have Kenny Jones coming on. So I’m really and then I’ve got some amazing woman as well. Emilie Pine and Kate Devlin. And yeah, so it’s it’s kind of. I’m just starting to record it, and I hope it’ll be out in July.

And I just feel really. It’s just an amazing project. The response to it is amazing. People absolutely love what I’m doing with it. And I feel I feel really liberated by it. I feel we liberated by it and excited for the future of it. We’re going to make some pants as well. Oh, I know. 

Le’Nise: Thinking back on your journey from where you started when you first got your period, the party that your mom threw for you to where you are now, if you could go back to speak to your 13 year old self, what would you say to her? 

Mika: I think I’d say it’s going to be okay. You know, just quite simple, soothing. It’s going to be OK, because it always is in the end. I think so many of us go through such trauma. Pain in life. Life can be incredibly painful and human beings can be very mean, very, very mean. I don’t know why, but they can. And I and I think just the very simple. Everything’s gonna be okay. Which was one of the meditations that I used to soothe myself after my mother died. I’d wake up in the night unable to get back to sleep in sheer shock and severe anxiety. Just everything’s gonna be okay.

Everything’s going to be okay. Everything’s going to be okay.

Le’Nise: I can feel that mantra going through me now, everything’s going to be OK. If listeners want to find out more about you, The Lady Garden, The Happy Vagina, where can they find out more?

Mika: Pretty straightforward. I’m Mika Simmons and my handles on social media at @missmikasimmons, which I’m trying to change at the moment. I don’t think I should be a miss anymore.

The Happy Vagina is @thehappyvagina. So never forget the the it’s the most important part, the happy vagina.

And then Lady Garden Foundation is Lady Garden Foundation, which and that’s our handle on social media. And also, if you want to look up on the Web site in the Web site’s really great. It’s got loads of really interesting information, blogs from people who experienced these cancers, symptom checkers, you know, really informative Web site.

The Happy Vagina’s just got lots of fun stuff, really.

Le’Nise: Well, thank you so much for coming on to the show today, Mika.

Mika: I’ve that’s such a nice time.

Thank you. You’re an amazing interviewer, I think.

Le’Nise: Thank you. 

Period Story Podcast, Episode 31: Maria Purcell, We Need To Learn About Our Menstrual Health From A Young Age

On today’s episode of Period Story podcast, I had the pleasure of speaking with Maria Purcell, the co-founder of the Hood, who recently launched their teen wellness journal (a period and mood tracker!), Girlhood: The Story. Listen to hear our conversation about Maria’s experience navigating her period as an athlete, her decision to come off the pill, how she used tracking to help her better understand her body as she was trying to get pregnant and of course, the story of her first period! 

Maria says she hid her period from her mum for a few months, because she felt that she could deal with it all herself and thought it was no big deal. Listen to hear how often Maria first thought she was going to have a period!

Maria’s experience as a student athlete shaped the way she thought about her body and her belief that periods were something that needed to be ‘dealt with’. She says that when she stopped taking the pill, she finally began to tune into her body and said that it was challenging because as an athlete, she was so used to being in control of her body.

We talked about how Maria started tracking what was happening to her body and how this helped during her fertility journey. She says that all the planning and tracking came naturally to her and helped her feel more confident and better about herself.

Maria shares how she lost her period at one point and what she did to get it back. She says that all the tracking and learning she did around her menstrual cycle and fertility eventually led to the idea to launch a journal for teens to help them understand their moods and eventually their periods, when they arrive. Listen to hear how she was inspired by her niece and how the journal helped them connect.

Maria says we need to learn about our menstrual health from a young age, so that we feel empowered and we understand our bodies. She says this will change the narrative and reduce the stigma around female health issues. Thank you for coming on the show, Maria!

Get in touch with Maria:

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MARIA’S BIO

Maria Purcell is a commercial business leader with extensive experience in the fields of strategy, growth, advertising, sales and marketing. She is committed to challenging traditional business models and ways of thinking, and to helping customers to find the solutions that work for them. With over 13 year’s experience gained at businesses like Facebook and Uber,

Maria is a results-oriented digital expert with a passion for all things tech. Maria has a Bachelor’s degree in Advertising and Media Production and a Masters in Design. A dedicated mother of 2, Maria was recently recognised as one of the Top 50 Sales leaders in the UK and is the founder of The Hood, who recently launched their teen wellness journal, Girlhood:The Story.

SHOW TRANSCRIPT

Le’Nise: On today’s episode, we have Maria Purcell. Maria is a commercial business leader with extensive experience of strategy, growth, advertising, sales and marketing. She is committed to challenging traditional business models and ways of thinking and to helping customers find the solutions that work for them. As a dedicated mother of two, Maria was recently recognised as one of the top 50 sales leaders in the UK and is the founder of the Hood, who recently launched a teen wellness journal, Girlhood: The Story. Welcome to the show. 

Maria: Hi. Thank you for having me. 

Le’Nise: So let’s get into the question that I start each episode off with. Can you tell me the story of your first period? 

Maria: Yeah. So my first period, I had my first period when I was eleven. And it was a pretty much a non-event for me, mainly because I was so focussed on something else that day when my period actually came. It was more of a “I’ll deal with that later”. I do think , I’ve been telling loads of people this recently and it shows my age as well. But 101 Dalmatians had come out at the cinema. And me and my mom had this thing because I had older brothers and sisters, but I’m kind of just always missed out on the stuff that they were old enough to do. When they were just old enough, I was still too young. So it was like New Year’s Eve. I think it was that everybody was out, you know, doing their thing with their friends. So my mom was like, okay, well, we’ll go to the cinema. And I’d been so excited about the fact, I love the cinema, I always have, I was just so excited, I was going to the cinema. I was like, you know, all day I was obsessed about it. And then just before we were about to leave, I quickly popped to the loo and then my period had started. 

And I was like, Oh. OK, no problem. So I got a pad because I shared a bathroom with two of my sisters. Got one of the pads, popped it in, didn’t say a word to my mom because I was like, I want to go watch this film. And I know if I tell my mom she’s gonna make a big deal out of it, we might not be able to go to the cinema. So I just completely didn’t say anything and just kind of carried on as per.  I remember having just terrible cramps in this cinema, but really focussing on the fact that I wanted to see this film, which wasn’t even that good anyway. But and it was until months later that my mom found out that I had actually started my period. And I remember she was just like, ‘oh, wait, what? Oh, my God.’ And she felt so shocked that I hadn’t said anything. And I, you know, was typical, typical young girl, ‘Yeah, right. No big deal. Get with it. Whatever.’ That was, was pretty much it, that was how I started. 

Le’Nise: Why did you wait so long to tell your mom? 

Maria: I think, to be honest, at the time, I generally didn’t think at the time it was that big a deal. 

I don’t know why I maybe because being with my older sisters all the time, I just knew I was going to come at some point. And also, yeah, actually, I also remember when I did have a conversation with my mom and she was like, ‘you know, you’re a woman and all this stuff is going to happen. Do you want to talk about it?’ And I was like, ‘No it’s fine. I don’t get what the fuss is about. I got the pads. Sorted it out. And then you, what I’m going to have to do this like once a year or something?’ And she was like, ‘what do you mean, like once a year?’ And was I like, ‘you know once a year, once every six months?’ And she was like ‘No, no, this happens monthly.’

And then I was like, ‘wait, what?’ And she was like, ‘yeah.’ And I was like, ‘to everyone?’ Yes. And everyone knows this. Yes. And I was like, ‘for how long?’ And my mom was like, ‘well pretty much for the rest of your life.’ What! And I remember being like, ‘Wow, this sucks.’

And at the beginning your periods are so irregular, right? You don’t really, you know, put it on, and it’s only when you’re like this is really rubbish now. So yeah, I think I was a bit like, what’s the big deal? Whatever. 

Yeah, very much realised. It’s a pretty important part of your life. Once a month, you know, for the rest of your life.

Le’Nise: And are your are your sisters older or younger?

Maria: Yes. Yeah. I’m the youngest.

Le’Nise: And part of your your confidence around your first period. Do you think it was also because your you had seen what your sisters had been doing? 

Maria: No, I hadn’t. You mean my sisters are actually talking about this the other day and I hadn’t actually seen what they were doing. There was no talk. There was no chat. I remember one time at the dinner table, my sister, you know, mouthing off to my mom. And my mom was just like, hey, just because you’re on your period doesn’t mean you can be a B. I remember the whole table being like ‘oooooh’.

Oh, really? have no idea why I didn’t. I mean, we’re all we’re a bit of a cocky bunch. Me and my sisters, you know, we’re pretty confident, you know, three Black females. All within a couple of years of each other in teenage years. Not a fun place to be for my mom, but confident about everything, to be honest. And also, I think you had that feeling back then that you kind of just dealt with it. It wasn’t a ‘let’s enjoy this. This is so special.’ This is it was more like, let’s just get it done and carry on with our lives. So I think that’s why I didn’t think it was such a such a big deal at the time. But yeah, no, I’m not sure why it wasn’t more of a more of a thing.

Le’Nise: And when you had that conversation with your mom and you, she told you that you get your period every every month. And how did you then get more education about what was what was happening to you? 

Maria: Well, I remember thinking and this is probably a common theme throughout throughout my life. I remember thinking how how is this such a big thing and no one talks about it? I remember being like, really monthly. And this to me, sounds like this is important. But I remember being like eleven, twelve, being like, what do I know I’m eleven or twelve. And and the first thing I did was talk to my friends. So the first thing I did was like hop on my phone and I text my friends being like, hey you started your period? I just talked to my friends about it and then I played a lot of sports. I was really, really into sports. So I think the people I was in the teams with, the girls I was with, teams, I think I relied more on the conversation with them because you’re naturally in the changing rooms. You know, you you talk about your bodies quite a lot because your you’re athletes. So I think it kind of came with them. And again, because of that athletic nature. Athletes are very much like, if I want my body to do something, I then have to do X, Y and Z. And I have to train this way. I have to eat this way so that I think athletes are just a lot more body confident because they understand what their body responds to. And so I think being in that environment helped me just have more open conversations with people. OK. I want to do high jump, but I’m on my period. Suggestions? People being like, yeah, yeah, just use tampons. And I think I graduated to tampons very, very quickly, which I think well, from the research that we’ve done from the from the book that we were looking at, for young girls, we realise that actually that tampons are not necessarily such an early entry product for this age, but for me and non-applicators tampons are also very much far down the line. But for me, it was like non-applicator tampons about three or four months in, again, because I just, I want to go swimming. And yeah, I think it was my network of friends like my my gang of girls I hung around with, they were they were the definitely the ones that gave me most information and even products. Right. So we build on that side shuffle of, you know.

Le’Nise: Do you think that playing sport, you said playing sports should make you more confident and athletes or female athletes are generally more confident? Do you think that that had and did it have any effect on your period? 

Maria: And yes, I think probably that’s why for a while they were maybe not as. Probably not as disruptive. I think to my everyday, because I think I had other things I was focussing on and like some cramps, for example, you know, a lot of people have really bad cramps and things like that. But I had bad cramps. But then I also had really bad muscle pain in general from playing sport like every single day. So I think I just kind of lumped it all in together. Which in hindsight, I wish I hadn’t done I wish I’d focussed on it more, but in my mind, I was just like, that’s just how it is, you’re an athlete and get on with it. And I definitely think I had a lot of girls that were in my kind of circle of athletes on. Funnily enough, actually, I’m not sure this is anything but none of my black girlfriends complained about it. But then I do remember, there was a lot of my white girlfriends, my Caucasian friends. They said they would have like debilitating cramps, that they couldn’t even come into school. You know, it was really, really bad. And I just I do actually remember thinking, like, why doesn’t that affect. I mean, you know, like Black girlfriends. Why does it affect this group of girls but doesn’t affect them? I mean, I can’t really explain it. And then that and they were all athletes. 

Le’Nise: And do you think that your Black girlfriends, they had them, but they just didn’t talk about them? They didn’t complain? 

Maria: Yeah, I think so. I think I because we’ve I’ve grown up with these girls and we talk about it now. We definitely complain about it now. But yeah, to be honest, I think there was a maybe in our culture there was more of a, kind of the things that you don’t really talk about or I think we’re Black females are kind of given this, ‘you know, you’re strong, you’re a strong Black female, you’re a strong Black woman’, you know. So I think that’s kind of rammed down our throats a bit more and we aspire to be like that. I know, I know I aspire to be like my sisters who are badass, very strong, physically and emotionally. So I think yeah, I think that definitely had an impact. 

And also, I think, you know, we just had other things to talk about. 

I don’t remember any of my of my friends having a day off because it was that bad or or not not competing or not playing sport because it was that bad. 

Le’Nise: And when you did you play sports all throughout school and then university?

Maria: Yes. So I, I, yeah, I did I did sport all the way through high school and then I, I kind of switched over from college into more dance gymnastics style and then at university carried on the gymnastics kind of element. So it was at the time it was it was called, competitive cheerleading, but it was the acrobatic style of it. So there’s a lot of being thrown in the air and wearing very tight spandex, that kind of stuff. So again, very physically intensive, which I didn’t stop doing until I was about 24, 25 years old. 

Le’Nise: So there’s a lot of research that shows that female athletes who do a lot of intense activity, especially gymnasts. They have issues with missing periods. Did you ever have that happen to you?

Maria: No, I didn’t have any, I didn’t have any issue with missing periods. I’ve always been very regular. Even when I was trying to conceive, even after having children, my body goes very quickly back to its kind of template of this is how we operate. So which I’ve been very lucky. Lucky in. 

But from for the ages of 15 to 24, 25. No actually, longer than that, 28. I think I was on the pill the whole time and that essentially meant no period for the type of pill I was on. I mean, I would stop and I would get a few periods and obviously they would come back with a vengeance. I would be like, oh my. So there’s a large chunk of my early days where I didn’t have this kind of. Appreciation or exploration of my body. In that my female health, I kind of again, just like, oh, it’s something to be dealt with. And oh, I can have a pill that stops it completely? Absolutely. With hardly any education around what I was taking, and really why I was taking it. And so when I got to 28 and then I stopped taking it. And then I started to really get into tune what was going on. And that’s when I’m to think about, you know, I was going I was getting married the next year and I was like, I know I’m going to want to have kids and I hope I can, my cycle goes back to normal, like quickly. But you hear those stories where it take years and years and years to get back to normal. So, yeah. Unfortunately, I didn’t I didn’t have much of that in my younger life, but just basically because it was in my my periods or something to be dealt with, periods were just something to move along and the pill for me at the time was the answer to that. 

Le’Nise: What made you go on the pill when you were when you were 15? 

Maria: So I think it was one: the no periods and that was a few of my friends was like I just take the pill and I don’t have periods and I was like oh, that sounds good, magical pill. But then also I think the all around kind of I guess it’s all kind of wrapped into one. But the whole education around, you know, sex and getting pregnant and all of that kind of stuff really is rammed down your throat when you’re, you know, in that age is like you have sex, you will get pregnant. And again, when I was there trying to conceive, I was like, that’s not the… But if you have sex, you will get pregnant. Here is a pill. Do something. And nobody wants to be carrying around like, you know, going in to buy condoms, just like sweaty, sweaty palms and asking the guy, you know, all about everything. A little classic narrative of like just being like ownership of your body and ownership of your sexual preferences. This wasn’t a thing when you were a teenager, you know, later on in your life, you’re like, hey, no glove, no love, so do one kind of thing, but you don’t get to have all of that. So I think the pill was also a way of all of the kind of female health, all of the kind of female reproductive stuff pushed to the side dealt with one pill. Go about my life, which is actually quite sad when you really think about it. 

Le’Nise: You you you’ve used that phrase dealt with. Deal with it. You just needed to deal with your period. When you came off the pill when you were 28, how did you transition away from this idea of just dealing with your period?

Maria: So I, I’ll be very honest. It took me a long time to actually. Well actually the reason why I came off my contraceptive was because I was like, I’m going to get married and I know I want to have kids. And my husband at the time was in the military. So he was in the Air Force and he moved around loads. We weren’t always together. So a few months at time, sometimes we wouldn’t see each other. So I knew that was it. I wanted to make sure that timing, if we decided, let’s go now, we could not, we didn’t have that luxury of time. So it was so uncertain of what we were doing that point. Let me just take off and, you know, fully in the next five years or so, then my cycle, be it. We’ll start to think about having kids, but actually the way the things that, life never kind of goes to plan, obviously but the way that things have kind of happened was that my husband shipped off to Afghanistan pretty much straight after we got married. So whilst he was away, we missed each other so much when he got back I was like I want to stop this now, I want to get on this baby making thing right now because we know it’s going to take a while. And, you know. I miss you and I want to get on with my life, and it actually was really difficult for us. And it took three miscarriages before I was able to successfully carry my, to term, my daughter, Bernadette, who’s four now. And it was at that point. That was the real kind of when the penny dropped. I was like, I don’t understand my body. And it was a real struggle for me because my as I said, like, I was used to being an athlete. And I I knew that if I did this to my body, it did this. If I wanted to learn a specific skill, I knew I had to practise and I would do it. I would get it in the end. So it was very disturbing for me to not be in control of my body and also to not understand it because I’m one of these people. If something’s going bad, someone something’s wrong. I’m very much like, OK, cool, but what’s the plan or how do we? What’s the formula? How do I deal with again or work around it. How do we find a solution? And yeah, there wasn’t one. And when I was talking to doctors, they were like, yeah, well you know, sometimes it just happens. I was like what do you mean, it just happens. Surely there are studies, surely there is data. And they were like, not really no. And I was like what? Could the pill have contributed to this? I’ve been on the pill for, like, however many years. And he was like, maybe. I was just like whoa. It was just such an eye opening moment for me, so I, I basically did what every kind of mom trying to conceive does and just go like headfirst into Google, Pinterest, anything that I could find of information. And I start to catalogue just everything from menstrual health to diet and nutrition to kind of mindfulness and anxiety and stress and cortisone levels, just everything. And very interesting. And I’ve never kind of looked back, but that was really the moment I realised, well, this is I’m never touching anything to put in my body ever again. I will never put hormonal. I’ll just never touch hormones, basically any kind of medical hormones. I did have to again when I was pregnant. But that’s a different story. But I was just like, what the hell? This is when you really read about what’s in it. Yeah, I was going through all of the type of things that you put into your the most absorbent part of your body. It was a real mind, can’t say the F word. 

I remember just getting so woke and really quite annoyed at myself. I think, you know, it took that to quite a horrible part of my life to actually start to listen and be interested in my own body. 

Le’Nise: But you know that that’s quite common. Typically, women who are trying to conceive. That’s a point where they come off the pill or they come off hormonal contraception and then they start to get more in tune with their natural cycle and know what menstruation actually looks like for them. What ovulation looks like. So you’re definitely not alone. But I want to just go back to what you’re saying about all of the kind of extensive tracking that you were doing. Was it kind of like an iterative thing when you would start to look at one thing and then you would keep on things on? 

Maria: Absolutely. I think. So obviously, when I first started tracking, I love as I said, I love planning. I just kind of put things together. As an athlete as well, you make a lot of training plans. You make a lot of that kind of stuff. So to me, I had like a whole binder, journals thing that I would like do and it kind of made me feel confident and make me feel better about myself that I was writing this stuff down. I could flip through it. So at first, I was like, when does my period happen? Like, that was kind of it. And then I was doing more reading and it was like, OK, what’s what’s the temperature? What’s your temperature changes? And I was like temperature changing, That sounds pretty militant, every day taking your temperature. But then I spent several weeks on cervical mucus. That’s a terrible word. Obviously, a man came up with that because it’s called cervical mucus. All right, cool. I’m going to have a look at that. And then it was my oh, this is my day of ovulation. OK. This is where I’m at in my cycle. And actually, it was, it was a means to get pregnant as well. It wasn’t a, cause I was interested in it. It was this is the means to get pregnant. And and then I had medical assistance to get pregnant and then I had to take hormones and things like that because they that’s what the doctors advised. Again, probably not something I would do again, but that was something that. And then that kind of through my cycle out of whack. And it was only because I’d been tracking it. And then when I took that, then I had to take quite a few different drugs. But when I took I really started to see how my body then went completely out of whack. And so then when I had these mood swings and when I was having, like, hormonal breakouts and all this kind of stuff, I really did start to connect the dots as to. Oh, this is what’s happening here. OK. And I could say to my doctor, no, this is throwing me out of whack. I know this because every month like clockwork, this is what happens. And I’ve missed this point. I mean, maybe take my little scrapbook and look and see what’s happening. And so, again, it was a means to an end to get pregnant. But then when I was pregnant and then I did have my daughter afterwards, then there’s a whole other kind of stuff of like, oh, my God, nobody tells you about all the other stuff that comes after the pregnancy and children and just how your body react reacts. 

That’s a whole nother podcast.  But what I wanted to do was get back to normal. So then I really started to more appreciate what that looked like in terms of how do I get back to being me? And how do I get back to being pre mom me, which never really happens. But in my mind, that’s what I was thinking. And my cycle, was a massive part of that, it’s a huge indicator of, yes, your body is now back on track. It’s not just thinking you’re here to feed and host another being. And that’s when I started to read more about just the cycle. Just just to kind if not not for a goal, not for anything else, just to generally know what to look for me. And how does that kind of affect everything else I’m doing? That’s really was the kind of, I’d say, the second inflexion point for me. 

And kind of getting getting into it. 

Le’Nise: And all of the all of the information and the tracking that you’ve done, have you? I know you have a younger child. Have you? Did you take that into trying to conceive your next child? 

Maria: Yes. Yes. No, I was very much. I knew that when my second child I kind of the goal was that I would love to not have to have, the medical assistance. I knew there was loads of things that I, linked with diet and things like that, that really, really helped me. The first time around, so about six months before I was even thinking of conceiving, I was like, I would need to get my diet in check. And the diet I was doing was a low sugar diet because I had a lot of inflammation. Again, I think from doing a lot of athletics and things, I had a lot of inflammation in the body, so reducing my sugar, really helped just tons of things. And then but that I really I noticed again, I was I was removing all the sugar and then I actually started to lose a lot of weight. And I think I got down to like the lowest I’ve ever probably been, like in my adult life. Just from just removing sugar, not really doing exercise or anything like that, but just removing sugar. And then my period stopped. OK. I was loving this diet I was on and it was giving me so much energy and I looked great and I was fitting into my clothes. It was cool. And then my periods stopped and I thought, whoa, that stuff is the messing with my body. And so then I started kind of easing up into when my period then started tocome back again. OK. But again, that’s like a whole new view on food. And what that can do and how that connects. So so I did take that into account. And I didn’t need the medical assistance to the same degree to to get pregnant. I did need it make much, much later on in the pregnancy and towards the end. But right at the beginning, it was we actually got pregnant accidentally. We were actually like, OK cool, we’ll have a baby, we’ll start at Christmas. I end up having my baby at Christmas. And again, I do put it down to the fact that one, I’d had a test from before and I knew what I was kind of doing this time. But also I was just so hyper aware of everything that my body was doing and not doing. And then like adding that extra layer of nutrition onto the tracking of what I was eating. So there was a lot of tracking. But that really did then help me find my my natural groove, I think. 

Le’Nise: When you say that you lost your period because you had cut out sugar, was it just like sugar, added sugars into food, or was it carbohydrates as well? 

Maria: Yes, carbohydrates as well. So it was first, it was like sugars into food. It was kind of like a process of elimination. So I was having blood tests done as I was cutting things out. We kind of we didn’t really know what it was going to end up looking like. But the nutritionist I had spoken to was just like the best thing to do is just start by process of elimination. And first, it was just like gluten. And I was like, what is gluten? And I thought, oh it’s in everything! But it was gluten, didn’t really have an effect, so I got the gluten back, which was brilliant. 

And then, yeah, it was like sugars and then it was carbohydrates. 

And then when it was with the sugars I saw, I did see a little step of there was like a reduction in my T cells, how they reacted and they just started to get a little bit less aggressive. So a lot of them and they were very aggressive and they wanted to take the sugar down to kind of chill them a little bit. And then when I took out the carbs, pretty much the numbers of them dropped and they just completely relaxed. So the levels of inflammation in my body started to kind of drop. The more I eliminated all these different things. But, yeah, like like I say, brain fog completely disappeared. When I got rid of sugar because I really suffered from that post, my first baby, like brainfog, I would be talking and all of a sudden it was like when I was like completely like two years later I was still doing it. So it was a really weird moment for me. But then the getting rid of sugar is like really, really helped. But then, yeah, I was eliminating, eliminating, eliminate, eliminating. Then I knew I’d gone too far when my period started to go very light at first and then a little bit erratic and then just it was like two months. I actually thought I was pregnant cause I started to think, well what’s going on? And I wasn’t pregnant. I was like, OK, let me just, I’ve lost a lot of weight. Let me just try and put some weight back on and see if they did.  

Le’Nise: What you’re saying is so interesting because, you know, there is a real, especially with women. There’s a real fear around carbohydrates. And I hear this a lot. You know, if I just cut out carbs, I’ll, I’ll lose weight. And this and that. But then what? A lot of people don’t realise just how important carbohydrates are for menstruation and a healthy menstrual cycle. So it’s really interesting because a lot of the research around this is actually being done on men. And so things like no carb diets and also like intermittent fasting. The studies are typically focussed on men and not that have not been done on women because the researcher say, well, it’s too it’s too comp complicated. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we see lots of things saying, oh, well, the research shows say low carb diets are great. But that research is on men. Yes. Oh, yeah. 

Maria: Forty five. Forty five to forty five. White male. 

Le’Nise: Yeah. Yeah. So how long did it take you to get your period back? 

Maria: It didn’t take me that long, actually. It took me probably about two months or so, I’d say. I remember being really worried that I’d done some lasting damage, like oh God. But luckily, it took not that I think because I wasn’t training at that point in my life. I was exhausted because I had a three year old. But it didn’t take that long and I, I knew which dial to kind of amp up. I did very gradually, I didn’t just switch because I knew that would throw my body into craziness as well. So I did it by gradually, bit by bit. So I think that helped. Yeah, it took a couple of months, but I was pretty, I was four weeks in before I realised. And then so all in all, I’d say I had a probably a gap of about three months of no period.

Le’Nise: And thinking about all the tracking that you’ve done, your first and second pregnancy, did that feed in to the idea that you had for the journal that you’ve.

Maria: Oh, yes, massively. Yeah. So when my niece saw the whole the whole the story, it all came about because my niece got her period when she was nine. 

And my niece is very different, do you remember I was talking about that confidence that I had when I was younger with my sisters. We still have that, if anything has been turbo boosted as we got older. And my niece is very much not like that. She is not yet a force. She isn’t like, you know, kicking your arse and on your case. Which me and my sisters definitely were and are. But so for me as her auntie, I really wanted to connect with her anyway, just in general. I want to connect with her. And I want to be like I want her to feel that kind of like sisterhood. She doesn’t have any sisters. And it’s always been very difficult to reach her, so it’s been having to kind of kind of get in there without being like, you know, not cool or embarrassing. And I never had this problem with my nephew. You know, he’s like this is fine. But my niece, it’s always been slightly awkward. So when my sister messaged us and said, sisters, it’s happened, I was like, well, she’s not pregnant because that would be a national manhunt. 

And I said what she started her period and said, yeah, we were like, oh, my God. Because we knew it was coming. We could see me, my sisters. We could start to see the changes in her. Even then, we were like, now you’re all safe. So I knew she likes she loves drawing. She loves journalling, she loves like anime. And I love that. When I was younger, I love the drawing and the doodling and making characters and all this kind of stuff. And I also really love now. You know, the kind of mindfulness colouring that you can do and bullet journalling and that kind of stuff. So that’s really where and Girlhood came from, because I thought, what if I could try and make something for my niece that kind of doesn’t feel like it is a hey, here’s a book of periods. 

We all got that book when we were younger. It was like 70s style with full on full frontal nudity and you’re like, oh my God.  

And I didn’t what that. I wanted to give her something. What she was like, oh, this is kind of my half journal, half education. And that’s how we talk about it, part journal, part guide. And in there, the first thing we start with the tracker, is there is a period tracker that you can colour in. And again, just by the habit of colouring it and you start to see the shape, you start to see more visually what’s happening. I think not everybody is like a day ahead and not everybody is kind of doesn’t leadings to technology. And even on the period apps. I have a lot of period apps I’ve used and they’ve always been lacking that certain realness to me, it kind of feels like I’m just dealing with I’m just putting it into an app that I’m dealing with. I’m not really exploring what’s happening. So the we start we have this period track. But really, the emphasis in the book actually is the mood trackers that are there every month, because that to me is really the hormone signal. When you’re a teenager, those mood swings are so much more. If anything, I had more problems daily with my mood swings than I did with my period. My period was like, okay, well, you played. Here’s a product. Take some painkillers. Moods, there was there was no product for that. And that probably more shaped my relationship with my body, with my self esteem, with my confidence, which in turn then kind of knocks on to how I look at my my female anatomy and how I look at everything to do with being being a woman. So really, for us, the mood tracker, it was something we wanted to add as much opportunity to colour and see a pattern that is kind of aesthetically pleasing, but also feels like you accomplished something when you’re colouring it in. And that’s the mood tracker, it actually is more of the focus and the period tracker’s kind of like a you know, as an add on to the book. It’s in there, but the focus really is the mood tracker, because that will that will happen for months and months and months before your period actually starts. And we wanted. I think the best way to say is that when you talk to everyone, I’m sure you have, like six or seven people about the first period. It’s very rare I hear somebody say they were prepared for it and that it didn’t just happen to them. And most people’s first periods stories are absolutely hilarious. Like, I’ve listened. I don’t even know how many because Girlhood: The Story has loads of them included, some really cool women into that. We talk to a lot of people about their period. I’m known now as the period, the period lady because you know what happened. And they’re always hilarious. But at the time they’re pretty much mortifying or embarrassing. And that’s usually because they were unprepared or they hadn’t noticed what was like. They were prepared for it, that they hadn’t really noticed what their body was doing to go something’s about to happen. Oh, here we are. Great. And what we wanted was a journal that essentially somebody could give their daughter, sister, niece, friend before the period begins so that by the period of time the period starts, they can start to see.I think I’m going to start my period soon. And then when I do, I know all of this stuff already. And I know where to go. Like, there’s even a page in there about all the different period products, cups, pants, pads, tampons, because, again, you just I don’t want my niece to have to justdeal with it. 

And again, talking about period products. One of the most one of the most hardest things when you talk about periods is that you have to stick something in your vagina or in your pants. Yeah, I talk about blood, and that’s a lot of where the friction comes from about having these open conversations, because a lot of people can’t even say the word vagina. They don’t know the difference between vagina vulva, like all of that kind of stuff. And so we wanted to show that in the book. So it was just like it’s there. So my niece might. Well, now my niece doesn’t use tampon. She uses period pants and she knows, cool, I’m on my period I use these pants when I’m not my period, these pants. 

And how easy is that compared to the conversation you have with your parents were like, well, this goes here. And if you pick the leg up like this. No, it won’t fall out. It was, you know, kind of stuff. It’s just a lot more easier. So. Yeah. 

The tracking element really does guide through the book, but it’s wrapped in all of this kind of colouring and stories from other people and places for them to jot down their own story at the book. What’s your story? So they can remember it and maybe even show it to their daughters when it’s full of friends or whatever. So, yeah. And the tracking element, they’ll probably graduate to an app as well, which would be brilliant. But knowing a bit more about themselves before, because, you know, you put in a lot of data into those apps and you don’t really get much back from. Yes, it’s on Thursday. So you really get it. 

Le’Nise: I used up my Apple Watch to track my menstrual cycle and I got a notification that said your period is due in the next ten days. And I was just thought, like, how is that helpful?

Maria: Yeah. Thanks for that. Yes. In the future. Yes. Yes. So this plan. Yeah. Yeah. 

Le’Nise: Where can people find the journal if they want, if they listen to this and they’ve really connected with what it’s all about. Where can they find the journal? 

Maria: So listeners can’t see this right now. But I’m currently in the Hood HQ, which is the top of my house, and I’m surrounded by journals and books because they all arrived yesterday. So we actually did a Kickstarter campaign to kick off the Girlhood journal.

Because we made one for my niece. Right. But then lots of people said I want want one of these. 

And then we’re like, OK, well, let’s do it big over there and we’ll just do a Kickstarter and we’ll see. And that arrived at yesterday, which is fun for me. So you can go to We are the hood dot com. And on that there is the ability to buy the book. And it was pre-orders. But now, as well as of next week, it will be that you can order it and get it within a few days. And we’ll also be listing it on Amazon soon, that will be going off to a fulfilment centre soon. And also, on www.wearethehood.com you can download those two downloads. One is the book as a download, just if you want to get. A lot of people have their own binders, stickies and with washi tape and they like to customise things a lot. And there is also a lot more affordable, the printable. And so the actual journal itself is 20 pounds. We’re trying our best to get that lower, but we can only do that when we have volume coming in so that we can now. Our aim is to get it as low as we can, but it’s leather bound comes and three colours. Really lovely silk coated pages because we want this to be a special gift. Not the textbook horrible brown paper. We wanted it to be really lovely, but we did understand that there are people who like my mom with three daughters. 

She’s not about to whack out 60 quid on a journal. So we said, okay, well, here’s the five pound option. And also, it gives more people the chance to customise, add in things that they want. And then also we have a free downloadable, which is just the period tracker. So you can kind of get a taste of what that looks like. It doesn’t come with the stories or anything like that. It’s just like a one to print out on an A4 and start to play with, which we’ve had over 500 people download the free tracker. And about half of them have gone on to even buy the digital download or the book, which has been brilliant. It’s a great way to kind of start the conversation with your daughter or nieces, whoever is.  Hey, would this be interesting? Is this cool? So that’s all available. And wearethehood.com and it’s the only product that we have on the site. So it’s pretty easy to find but should be available soon as well. 

Le’Nise: And I’ll put all the links in the in the show notes. So if if listeners take one thing away from everything that you’ve been saying, what would you want that to be? 

Maria: I think, um. I think the biggest journey for me, having gone through this all myself, but then reliving this when we were building the journal with my co-founder and the team very much is I mean, education is power. It’s not covered off in our curriculum. So we shouldn’t rely on schools and teachers to have this conversation with the. 

And I think from a young age, if we care about what’s going on with our body, not just from our biology lesson or whatever, but from female health, if we can start to install that, hey, this is the kind of the way that you can self learn self teach. So it’s naturally embedded in all of us to want to know more about our bodies. Want to know more and take ownership of it. I don’t think it’s about sitting down and saying, OK, I’m going to give you a lesson now, OK? This is how it is. I think you should empower all women to want to know. It should almost be a, you know, as cool as knowing, you know, a different language or as cool as it should be, like. Yeah, I know. Or, you know, what the hell is going on. 

And I really think that’s how we change the narrative. Change the stigma around a lot of female health issues. . But I think just having that knowledge is, they haven’t read a lot of people be a bit too old for Girlhood now it’s kind aimed at more of the pre-teen market, but a book I’d really recommend it. I’m sure you cover this many times is Period Power by Maisie Hill and it is like my go to I had like a whole list, of a whole bookshelf of go to books for females like always like to reference. 

Like Becoming by Michelle Obama, Period Power by Maisie Hill and that one is really good because it’s again, it really does put you back into your shoes when you’re younger and your whole life going. That’s why I never fall. It really does help you to then get that hunger to know more about this. 

I’m not going to accept anything less than this, this and this. You know, empowering yourself, young girls to want to learn about their female health is probably the first step or the most important step, I think, in really making progress in this area and really starting to. Just build a more confident, more happier generation of women. Get a book, any book and start reading and start start learning. I would say, I guess if they’re anybody listening to this podcast, they’re already on that journey. 

Le’Nise: There’s a lot of women listening that will, or mothers. And she’ll have sisters and nieces and all of that. So everything you’re saying about education and empowerment, they’ll be able to pass that on to them, their generation. Thank you so much. Oh, OK. 

Maria: Sorry. Before just before we did, I just remembered this and actually so we had a load of teachers downloading our resources this summer and I reached out to one of them and I said, hey, you’ve got a book. You downloaded the digital version and you download this free planner. I’m not sure at this school. I’d love to have feedback. We’re trying to make some more resources for you guys. And she came out with a really useful information. I did not I wasn’t aware of. She said, actually, yeah, we were looking to put this in the curriculum next term because in PSHE it’s only PSHE has only just started to be mandatory in all schools as of this term, which I wasn’t aware of. I thought everybody had to do PSHE. And she said, and even then, the female health topics, you can choose what you teach. So which I didn’t know that either I thought there was like a curriculum, a set curriculum that you had to teach and that you had to teach PSHE. So it even more so I was just like, whoa. So a lot of parents, I think, assume this stuff is covered off in class. And it’s really important when you’re talking to teachers, when you’re looking at schools for your kids. Ask them if, you know, if you want to, ask them, is this covered off? Because if it isn’t, then that’s on you to really go out there and make sure they have it. And if it is. Have a look at what they’re teaching. Because that really that I mean, it’s very hard to undo. Have a look at the resources.

There was a mom’s group on WhatsApp that someone shared our book there and all 50 of the moms bought the book. And they will put the book because they were like, I’m not taking this into my own hands. I’m not leaving this. They do not teach us in our schools. So they got it. And they all just boom done. And it was so empowering and so cool for me to see these these mothers just just taking it into their own hands and being like, we are not leaving this up to anybody else to educate our daughters. It’s so important. So it’s, I think if you come across that really it’s something that needs to be addressed, that this absolutely should be taught, there’s no reason why this shouldn’t be taught in biology. There’s no reason why this shouldn’t be taught in PSHE, and there should be a really good framework for what’s put into schools on this. That’s just the other thing that I learnt that I think I learnt about a month ago. I thought I knew everything. And then I was like, what? And that’s just something. For all the moms out there. 

Le’Nise: Yeah, I didn’t either, but it was mandatory as well. So that was very eye-opening. And I think that I don’t think that parents should be leaving this to the schools. And that I mean, that’s a whole other topic about the taboos around this. But having a conversation early and often. So your children, even your your sons as well, because they need to know know about this. I talk to my son, about this because they need to be comfortable and they need. It’s about helps them connect with their own their own bodies and minds. 

Maria: My husband, he’s been a he’s been going through that. But I mean, he’s been surrounded by period stuff now. 

Actually, Shawna’s dad had an amazing relationship with her around when she started her first period. And he was actually the one that was showing her the products. And as well as my sister, he was there, too. And I think that also kind of made a big difference for her. But we’ve had a lot of dads buy the book as well, because they’re like, this is great I have no idea how to just start the conversation. This is just a great way to just give it to them and say, hey, I thought you might like this. And by the way, I’m here if you want to talk about this kind of thing. And so we’ve had such a great response for dads as well, because it’s just so nice and easy. And, you know, just lovely way to start that relationship off of your daughter who’s all of a sudden kind of become, you know, into their teens. And, you know, who don’t want to talk to you very much. 

Yeah. It’s kind of a good tool to start the conversation. 

Le’Nise: Brilliant. Well, I definitely will be recommending it to all my friends. Thank you so much for coming on the show. It’s been a real pleasure to hear your story and hear more about the journal. I’ll put all links in the show notes so listeners can find out more about where to get their hands on the journal. Thank you. Thanks again. 

Maria: Thank you very much for having me. It’s been great. 

Period Story Podcast, Episode 30: Trisha Barker, Stick To Your Guns And Fight For What You Want

On today’s episode of Period Story podcast, I had the pleasure of speaking with Trisha Barker, a life coach who helps people manage and overcome imposter syndrome. Listen to hear our conversation about Trisha’s endometriosis journey, how she fought for a diagnosis, how she manages the endometriosis pain, how she’s incorporated menstrual cycle awareness into her day to day work life and of course, her first period.

Trisha says that when she was shocked when she first got her period. She had a stomachache and thought to herself: “Am I dying?”. Her mum was there to reassure her and explain to her what happened. Trisha says that she felt really embarrassed and ashamed about what was happening to her and it took her until her forties to get past the shame.

Trisha went on a long journey of trying to deal with her heavy and painful periods, for years using the pill to do this. She eventually decided that she didn’t want to be on the pill because she didn’t believe it was good for her health. After she came off the pill, her period pain boomeranged back.

Listen to hear what happened when Trisha tried to get the bottom of what was behind her excruciating period pain and the moment where she refused to leave her GP’s office until he gave her a solution that didn’t involve more pills.

Trisha explains that coming off the pill helped her connect with her menstrual cycle. She says she wanted to be back in tune with her own body. Trisha shares how she was able to spot patterns through her menstrual cycles and adapt her work accordingly.

Trisha shares some advice for people struggling with imposter syndrome and the key questions they need to ask themselves to move past it. She says that we can ask ourselves better questions and start to find evidence to prove that our imposter doesn’t know everything. Trisha says that when you change what you believe about yourself, you change how you show up in the world. Thank you, Trisha!

Get in touch with Trisha:

Website

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TRISHA’S BIO

Founder of the Imposter Syndrome Solution, Trisha is a Life Coach and NLP Practitioner who is on a mission to help people stop doubting their abilities and believe in themselves, so they can thrive in their career and life.

Trisha’s work brings together her training as a Life Coach and NLP Practitioner, a 20 + year career in Human Resources working for some of the largest FTSE 100 companies in the UK and her own personal pursuit of dissolving imposter syndrome and focusing on her personal wellbeing.

She works with organisations and individuals to help them understand how Imposter Syndrome is impacting their business and careers, whilst helping them to build a toolkit to manage and overcome Imposter Syndrome.

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SHOW TRANSCRIPT

Le’Nise: On today’s episode, we have Trisha Barker, founder of the Imposter Syndrome Solution. Trisha is a life coach and NLP practitioner who is on a mission to help people stop belittling their abilities and believe in themselves so they can thrive in their career and life. She works with organisations and individuals to help them understand how imposter syndrome is impacting their business and careers, whilst helping them to build a toolkit to manage and overcome imposter syndrome. Welcome to the show.

Trisha: Hi, thanks for having me.

Le’Nise: So let’s get right into it. Can you tell me the story of your very first period? 

Trisha: Yeah. A little bit of a blur. I can’t remember the exact age. I think it was about 11 or 12. So very, I see that as a young age to start. And I’d been at a friend’s sleep over. It was a friend’s birthday. We’d all gone to have a sleepover. And I remember having really bad stomach pains. But I didn’t want to leave because it was this party. But in the end, the girl’s mum had to ring my mum to come and collect me. I went home and just thought I had a stomachache. And then I actually went to the toilet at some point and saw blood. And I remember at the time, thinking, “Am I dying?”. Well, I, I if if I was taught about periods beforehand, at that moment in time, I didn’t remember any of it. Like I just didn’t know what was happening to me. And I remember calling my mum and my mum coming in and saying, “it’s OK, you’ve just started your period, here are some sanitary pads.” And that was my literal experience.

Le’Nise: So your mind just went blank in that moment?

Trisha: Thinking back now. I’m not sure whether it went blank or I’d never had. I can’t remember whether we touched on these subjects at school. I can’t remember ever having a conversation with my mom where this was normalised for me. I can’t remember. I just remember at the time being so shocked that I thought I was dying. 

Le’Nise: And then what happened after you got over your initial shock? 

Trisha: We just didn’t know, in the house, and it’s really weird because I was brought up in a house full of older sisters, just so it wasn’t a subject we spoke about. You know, I was given the sanitary towels, told it would happen each month, and then that was it, really. And then you just carried on. And like I said, I was quite young. So starting to have periods at a really young age at high school was quite a horrible thing. Like it was. I felt so shameful. I don’t know whether other people feel like that, but you’ve got this thing that’s happening to you and you don’t really understand what’s happening. And you’ve got to go around your day to day thing. We know that actually the energy and how you feel at that time, you don’t really want to be going out there into the world, but you’ve got to go out. And back in those days, it were really big, fat, thick sanitary pads. So you’re trying to wear those in your school uniform and you had a skirt on, so you felt a little bit like vulnerable. So, yeah, it’s just I just remember that at that time in my life, I just felt like they were horrible and I felt really embarrassed and shameful about it.

Le’Nise: How long do you think it took you to get over that shame? Get past that shame?

Trisha: Oh, till I was in my forties. Oh, yeah. Because I think you go from school, then you go to college or whatever career path you take, and then you go into the workplace and in the workplace, it’s still a thing that we don’t talk about. I always say this to people. You know, you used to put your Tampax up your sleeve to go to the toilet, you just, in the workplace, it’s another taboo subject. So in school and in the workplace, it’s just as women we’re trying to hide this thing that happens each month. We’re trying to be, peppy, you know, and act like our energy is high when actually we feel really low in energy. And yeah, I just think it’s this whole thing until I was in probably my 40s and started to understand about periods, then that was it. I just I will talk about it to anybody and everybody know that. 

Le’Nise: I want to go back to what you said about you growing in a house with your mum up in a house with your mum and your older sister. But it wasn’t really spoken about. Why do you think that is? Why do you think you didn’t have that? That those conversations? 

Trisha: It’s an interesting one. I’m not really sure because we are very open about lots of subjects. 

I don’t know whether it was the time. 

Whether it’s the education now that I think it’s so important that we should be talking about these subjects. I just think it was the time that we just didn’t talk about those sorts of things. I don’t think there’s any particular reason why it was avoided. 

No, not sure. 

Le’Nise: You didn’t really have the conversations at home and you said that you didn’t really remember being taught about it in school. So how did you learn about what was happening with your body? 

Trisha: Really to really understand what was happening again back in my 40s. When I spoke to my mum, she told me that I would have a period every month and I would bleed for a few days. So once it started to happen, we had that conversation. She did tell me that. That’s all I thought it was. I thought there was this period of time that I would bleed each month and that was it. But never do we really understand as a woman what happens in our body each month and what are the different cycles we go through in that moment. You know, every woman who I speak to now, they know about the maybe PMT, before they have a period, they know about that period. And that’s it. So I think even anybody at any age, the education of what happens to us women is really limited. 

Le’Nise: So for you personally now, you know, you’re talking about going beyond what happened during period and that week before. Yeah. What was that light bulb moment for you? Or was it more of a gradual kind of learning about what was going on? 

Trisha: Yes, I think for a long time, I sort of masked what was happening in my body, so when I was I would say late teens, the pain I used to have with my period and really heavy periods when I was at that age. My mum took me to the doctor and the doctor decided to put me on the contraceptive pill because that would be a really good fix to stop that happening. So for a long period of time, I didn’t have that natural cycle. It was being driven by a contraceptive pill. So for a long period of time, you get out of sync with your body, don’t you, because you’re not really in tune with it anymore. And I wish now we would have said, no, that’s not the reason. That’s not the solution to the problem. Let’s find out what the problem is. So for many years, I used the contraceptive pill. It was only sort of, I would say, in my mid to late 30s, I decided I didn’t want to spend so much time on the contraceptive pill. It’s not, I didn’t think it was good for my health. And that’s when I really started to feel again, what happens each month? And I went to the doctors. I remember it was about, about five years ago, still having these horrendous pains are trying to, you know, I had a job where each month I was just hoping and praying that I wouldn’t be out and about somewhere because the pain was excruciating. Like, I’ve never had a baby and I’ve got a really good pain threshold. But that first day of my cycle is horrendous. The pain is so intense. Nothing stops it. And I went to the doctor and interestingly, again, tried to give me a pill. Well, we’ll give you an anti-spasm. And I was like, no, there’s something. I want to know why my body’s doing this. I don’t want the fix. I want to find what is the root cause. And I had to really push, really push. She was having none of it. And I ended up getting referred. And in the end, I went through this whole process of different tests and I had endometriosis and I probably had it when I was a young girl. So that sort of sparked me into this whole, I need to know more about my body, like, how have I missed this all this time? And hindsight’s a wonderful thing, isn’t it? But I think that sparked this whole interest. And I was chatting to someone about after, I had an operation for the endometriosis. So then I didn’t have the pain each month. But then I was chatting to someone about I felt like I was really full of ideas last month, last week. And I felt like I was really on top of things. And this week I just feel a bit sluggish. I don’t know why. I don’t know what’s wrong with me, thinking there was something wrong with me. And she said, “Have you ever learnt about your cycle, your monthly cycle? And she recommended a book to me. And that’s when things started to change for me. So that was that was only like three years ago. Like, you know, I’m at a stage of my life where I’m not going to be. I’m moving into the stage where I’m moving towards the menopause. I wish I had known this earlier, but, I look at it now that I know this magic now and I didn’t know it before, but at least I do now. 

Le’Nise: Going back to the pain that you were experiencing as a teenager. Yes. And then going on to the pill. Did the pill, you used the word masked. Did it feel like the pill masked the pain that you did you experience any pain or?

Trisha: No pain, took it away completely.

Le’Nise: OK. And then once you came off the pill, what was it like that transition of the pill to then having natural cycles and really and then experiencing the pain again? 

Trisha: I think I felt much more emotional because, you know, I think for me on the pill, you don’t get those different fluctuations in the hormones, so you feel the same, all month long. And I remember coming off, I just felt a little bit like all over the place, like, should I just go back on it? Because I feel really bizarre. But I remember just thinking, let’s just ride through it and see what happens. I want to be back in tune with my own body. I don’t want to be taking this forever. 

So, yeah. I remember at the time. Just feeling a lot of the feels like what’s going on with me? 

I’m a woman and that’s what was going on with me. 

Le’Nise: And getting that diagnosis of endometriosis so far into time that you have that you have your period getting that. How? How did you. You said that, you know, you wish you had known earlier, but how did that information impact, did it impact your day to day life or was it a feeling of, OK, now I know what’s going on? 

Trisha: I think it’s the same with a lot of things, it’s just nice to sometimes have a label to understand what is going on. I think, you know, you go to see a doctor and you’ve got a 10 minute slot to explain what is going on with you. The majority of the time it’s a male doctor who doesn’t under really understand, they might know it from a medical point of view, but from experience in it, they don’t understand it. For me, it was just nice to, now I know what’s been going on, and I felt really proud actually that I’d fought to find out what was happening, rather than accepting another prescription of another different type of pill to mask the pain. So for me, it was a relief. It was a relief and a relief that actually I could, I had surgery. That was the thing that helped me, unfortunately, it has come back so I’m experiencing it again. But at the time, it was just nice to be heard and listened. The surgeon that worked on the endometriosis, he was like, “this is what I think you’ve got. And I am the only person who can find this. Any of the tests that they send you for will not work.” It took to speak to that specialist, to have that conversation about my body that everybody I spoke to along the way kept saying there’s nothing medically wrong with you. 

Le’Nise: And you said that you had, so you had the surgery and then but now it’s come back. Did you change anything after you had the surgery? Did you did you change anything in your life or did it make the way that you approach your life any different? 

Trisha: No. It just gave me, maybe not the fear. So sometimes, like I said, I was working in a corporate job at the time and I could be up and down the country. I could be in a really important presentation day. I never knew what was going to happen. And so that fear was I always wanted to try and work from home my first day of my cycle. So I think when the when I didn’t have the endometriosis anymore, I didn’t have the pain. So then I had this freedom of well, it doesn’t matter where it happens. Like, yes, I would prefer to be able to hunker down and, you know, feel into the slowing down energy. But, yeah, the fear disappeared because it was OK to be out in public and not worry about having to handle this pain situation that I wouldn’t have. I remember once driving along in my car when it started and I couldn’t drive like I couldn’t focus on driving and managing the pain and I had to pull over and wait for it to go. So I didn’t have any of that anymore. Like it was. It was such a freedom. 

Le’Nise: And and now that you said that the pain, the pain has come back, so. Yeah. Is it as bad as it was before? And how are you managing the pain? 

Trisha: I would say now it’s worse, when it does come back so. How do I manage it? Nothing seems to work like I’m very fortunate. I don’t know. I don’t think anything in life is a coincidence, but it always seems to work on a day where I don’t have much, I don’t have any client work or it’s a weekend day when I have no plans or actually I cancel the plans if I have got plans, now, I honour my cycle and know that I just need to rest. But yeah, I need to go back to the doctor’s. But until we can go back to having doctor’s appointments. But yeah, that’s one of the things that I need to push for because they all get into a point where, yeah, it’s really effecting me. And then because the pain is so bad, I’m exhausted for a couple of days afterwards because of the trauma of going through the pain, but also the sometimes that the pain is all through the night. So I miss a night’s sleep. 

Le’Nise: So we’ve had on the show we’ve had three or four guests with endometriosis and a theme that has run through all of the conversations about their endometriosis, no matter what stage endometriosis they they have is this idea of being their pain or their experience being minimised or dismissed by health care professionals and feeling like they’ve really had to fight and advocate for themselves. What would you say in that in in that sort of theme, what would you say that your experience has been? You know, you mentioned the word fight earlier and to fight for a diagnosis. Can you talk a bit more about that? 

Trisha: So when I went to, the doctors, they were very much of the mindset of you’ve got that 10 minute slot, I will give you a pill to fix the problem. And I took that prescription the first time, tried them when my monthly cycle came round again the first day of my period. I tried these tablets. They did not work. So I went back again and I remember him trying to give me a different prescription. And that was at the time that I just thought, this isn’t the solution. You’re trying to give me another, I don’t like taking prescription drugs unless there’s a real need for it. So I think that sort of pushed my decision that I don’t want to take these tablets. And I just thought, this is not the solution. I need a different one and I just pushed. You know, I remember sitting there and just said, I’m not leaving. I need you to refer me to somebody else. I don’t want to take tablets. I want to get to the bottom of this. And I remember I was just quite forceful in the meeting. Like in this 10 minutes slot that you have to refer me. I think he was just shocked. 

And he did. 

But even when I went to see different professionals throughout the whole of that time. They couldn’t understand that I could have pain without heavy periods, like I wasn’t having a heavy bleed, so I saw about three different people before I saw the surgeon who did my surgery for my endometriosis. But each different person who I saw, they were adamant that there was nothing wrong with me, but they just kept trying to tell me there’s nothing there. But I had this just sense of knowing that this is not this is my body. I’m not masking it with any drugs or pain relief. I know I had, I just had this sense of knowing that. This isn’t normal, I know. And I know there’s something wrong and I will get to the bottom of it. So I feel very fortunate that that happened for me. And. When I saw that final surgeon and he said, “yeah, I think you’ve got endometriosis”, it was just like just this massive sense of relief that someone was listening, that I was probably right, that actually there was something, there definitely was something wrong in my body. And there was a male doctor. That was understanding what was happening in my day. It is incredible. 

Le’Nise: What do you think it took for you to be able to fight for yourself in those moments? You know, you mentioned the moment where you wouldn’t leave the surgery until they referred to what poor preparation did you do for yourself in that moment? 

Trisha: I think you just get to a tipping point where enough’s enough. Like. 

Like. 

All the different pain relief you can take. You just decide that that’s not the solution. I think that’s when I decided I don’t want to keep trying to try all these different drugs. That’s not you know, I work a lot through the coaching to find the root problems of what why different things happen. So, again, it’s back to the root cause that’s what’s going to fix something. All of the prescription drugs, all it does is. Like I said before is mask it. So I just went I just as I I’m going into this meeting and I’m not leaving until I’ve been referred. I’ve got a ten minute slot and you need me out of here as possible. So I’m just going to try it and see what happens. And thankfully it worked, so just stick to your guns and just fight for what you want. 

Le’Nise: I want to switch gears a little bit and talk about how you said that, now you honour your cycle. And you mention how through coincidence or not, on the first day of your period, you are able to shift shift gears a little bit and stay at home or stay close to home. Talk a little bit more about what else you do to across all of your your menstrual cycle to integrate that and how you’re feeling energy wise into your work and the rest of your life. 

Trisha: So I like I said, someone recommended a book to me, which was Code Red by Lisa Lister. And that explained that actually what we’re taught very early on about, you know, we have this period of time where we bleed. I learnt that actually I have all this different magic that happens throughout the whole of the month and in different phases. You know, I learnt about there was a spring, a spring season, summer, autumn, the winter and in each of those, there’s different things happen in my body and different energies that I’m going to get. You know, I’m going to be masculine energy, feminine energy. It’s like a light bulb went off. I was like, we should get this at school. We should understand where we start our periods, what actually happens the whole of the month. So I started to. You got a download to track. So you just start to track on the first day of your bleed, and then you just started to notice what’s happened in my body each day. How am I feeling? How do I feel workwise? What’s going on in my head? I just started to track it. That’s the first thing I did. So I did it for the first month. And then the second month I would sort of look at, say, just pick a day. Day eleven where I might feel a little bit flat. And I’d look back at the chart of the month before and look at day eleven and realise, oh, actually on day eleven and I feel a little bit flat. So I started to realise that there was different energies that I was feeling in those times. So then I started to put the dates of my cycle alongside the diary that I have. So now it might say it’s the, you know, the twenty third today, but it will also show that I’m on day 11 of my cycle. So now when people are asking me if I can do things like I’m moving into perimenopause now, so my ability to plan as well as I did, so for about the last 18 months, I’ve had the same regular cycle. So when somebody asks me to do something, I think, where am I in my cycle? So I know that in autumn and winter I’m a little bit more in my feminine energy. So things might feel a little bit like I don’t feel as sociable, especially when I’m in my autumn. Being able to talk and communicate is a little bit more difficult. I struggle to find the words sometimes and articulate what I’m wanting to say. So I found that spring and summer was the times that I’m more sociable. Great for doing things like this. Speaking to you and delivering workshops, all of those different things, I realised that there was different energy like in all of those different times. There’s a time for planning. There’s a time for getting shit done. There’s a time for accepting invitations to socialise and do all of those fun things. And I started to just experiment with it. Like you can’t always do it. You know somebody, if somebody is running an event, you could say, well, I can’t do it because I’m going to be winter. But. I started to say, yes, I would do certain things, and if somebody asked me for a social thing, I’d think, well, I’m in summer now, so I’m dying to say yes to this because I’m in that energy where I want to be around people and be sociable. But when they want to meet with me, I know that it’s gonna be winter and I’m not going to want to feel so sociable. So it helped me to start to say yes and no to things I thought were right for the energy. And that worked wonderfully for about 18 months. Now I’m moving into a phase where my cycle isn’t as regular so I can have a 25 day cycle, I can I have a 29 day cycle. So the the ability to plan has gone a little bit. But I still use that. I still try and guess as much as I can. And the beauty is I will then go and tweak anything afterwards if then my period comes early. I then look at my diary for the week after and think, is there anything I can move around to make sure that I am using the my energy in this week in the right way? So yeah, it’s just for me. Like I said, I found this out at such a late time in my period journey that I. I wish I had known before about it. Like I said, hindsight’s a wonderful thing. It’s been the most amazing transformation for me. Instead of guessing what’s wrong with me, why can’t I do what I could do last week? Why is my inner critic really loud at the moment? Now I just go, Oh, I get it. It’s my hormones. It’s OK. It will pass. This isn’t me. This is my hormones. And ever since that’s happened, it’s just like this huge sense of relief. 

Le’Nise: It sounds like you’ve learnt to really be tender with yourself. 

Trisha: Massively, massively. I recognise that we we work in a, in a society that has been designed for men, you know, the working day is designed for a man, the 9-5 is based on the man’s body clock, like we are trying to fit into a man’s world. And we we want to be treated equally. But we have to recognise that we we have a difference like what happens in our bodies is different. And there’s magic in that. Like, if we can work to our cycle, we can be much more productive. We can perform better if we work with that energy. But we can not be in this masculine energy all the time to hustle, the pushing, always being switched on, always being a hundred mile an hour. We can do it, but there’s a consequence to it. Now I know that there’s a flow between the masculine energy and the feminine energy. I just try and honour it more and just always when I feel it in a funk or I’m feeling like I just, don’t have ideas today or I can’t find my words, I ask myself, where am I in my cycle? I just ask myself all the time. Yeah. OK, that makes sense. Most of the time is down to my hormones. It’s just where I am in my cycle. 

Le’Nise: It’s amazing how when you start to tune into what’s happening to your body, you learn so much more about yourself and you move away from this idea of dealing with your body and dealing with what’s happening to your body to have a better understanding and maybe not embracing it, but being more understanding of yourself. I just wanted to just talk, for listeners who don’t know some of the terms that Trisha has used. So she’s talked about the summer, winter, autumn and spring. So those are the different phases of the menstrual cycle. And so winter is when you have your period. Spring is when you come out of your period with a follicular phase. Summer is ovulation and then autumn is the luteal phase. So this is the kind of terminology that some people use to to describe the different phases of the menstrual cycle. And it’s a nice analogy for what’s happening across the seasons. 

Trisha: That really helped me Le’Nise, because I could think about, well, what happens in winter. Well, animals hibernate, like nothing grows. It’s a really quiet time for reflection in the shorter days. So for anybody listening, it’s really good to start to track that and think about what happens in nature, because that’s what happens in those light, how cool are women’s bodies like we go through four seasons of nature in one month. I just think it’s the coolest thing ever. 

Le’Nise: I really wish that we had been taught this in schools or that there was much more emphasis on this in the schools because we spend so much time fighting it. You mention feminine energy and masculine energy and we spend so much time in this, especially when you have your own business, hustling and this kind of feeling like you have to work 24/7, never let up when really, you’re, this is not the way that our bodies were designed. We are designed to have rest. We are designed to be able to take our feet off the pedal a little bit and kind of tend to ourselves. And I do love the fact that all of these conversations are starting to become, yeah, maybe not mainstream, but these conversations are starting to happen more openly. 

Trisha: Definitely. And it’s interesting. I love to talk about this subject. You know, I had a career in HR for 22 years in corporate companies that would not want to talk about this subject. And I love, I find this companies now that are interested in talking about these subjects that we haven’t spoken about before. And I hope that this is a shift starting to happen that we need to have these conversations. We need to help women in the workplace. Harness this magic as their monthly cycle. Like, let’s get out of this hustle and male masculine energy all the time, because I do think that drives our health. Like if we asked if our bodies designed to rest at a certain time, but we’re not honouring that, then it’s going to show up it it’s going to manifest in some shape or the other. And I do think it will come out in your health in some way. 

Le’Nise: Absolutely. I want to talk about your work as a coach specialising in imposter syndrome and how perhaps some of the learnings you’ve gained about yourself over the last three years have tied into or fed into the work that you do with clients. 

Trisha: Yeah, so I’m obsessed with talking to women about their cycles. So if if I have a client that has been, you know, they’ve made real progress, but then all of a sudden they’ve got a day where they’re feeling like really doubtful. The first thing I asked them before anything, what day what day of your cycle are you on? I do it with my friends as well. But I’m always asking people, where are you in your cycle? So I’ve I’ve been able to to carry on whilst it’s about, you know, my specialist subject is imposter syndrome. That’s why you’re doubting your abilities. Actually, there’s times in your cycle and where your hormones affect that. So there’s there’s two times in your monthly cycle where it will be louder than it normally is. And if you can start to understand that actually this is just because of your hormones. So I’m constantly asking my clients. I encourage them to track their cycle. And I actually don’t believe everything that you think, like this moment in time, don’t be making decisions because this isn’t the perfect time to be making decisions, because you’re being more led by your hormones right now. Maybe we can park that and come back to it. So I think it’s just for me, it’s given me a way to be more in tune with my body. And I encourage my clients just to do exactly the same. To start to understand what is happening with you personally. And yeah. A lot of the times it’s where they say. I just don’t feel it this week. And it’s not it’s the week of their cycle. You know, they’re having their bleed. And I’m like, so how are you going to build some rest in. Your body doesn’t want to be going a hundred mile an hour right now? So, yeah, I definitely talk about it with all of my clients, but also the people that I just speak to on a day to day basis. 

Le’Nise: So you said that there are two points in the menstrual cycle where that inner critic, that self-doubt that it would be louder. Is it right before the period? And in the first couple of days of the bleeding?

Trisha: So it’s when you go into your spring. So if you think about spring, everything starting to come alive. And that’s when it starts to become like you’re wanting to move into getting things done and making plans and bringing things to life. That’s when it pops up. So I always say to people, if it pops up in spring, say, go away, you can come back in autumn. Now’s not the time. I haven’t got time for you right now. So come back in autumn and then we’ll have a chat in autumn. So, you know, kind of push it, to, I’ll have an appointment with you to come back in two weeks. We’ll have a chat then. Autumn is when it is at its loudest. You know, you get into your comparison. Should I be running my business? Should I go and get a job? Should I quit? Is my work as good as everybody else’s? That really good idea that I’ve been doing. Maybe it’s not so good. You’ve just got to watch. You’ve really got to be mindful and look at it. What’s going on with my thoughts this week? Because that’s all they all, we don’t have to believe everything. But that’s normally what happens. I know that if I start to doubt anything and I think, OK, well, that’s what’s happening now. But because my hormones are driving this, let’s look at this so I schedule some time for the week after when it’s out of autumn into winter and I think, or spring. Let’s have a look at this decision then. Is it still the case of most of the time it’s not.

Le’Nise: It’s interesting, what you said about that inner critic popping up in after you finish your period as you go into spring. Yeah, because you you start to your oestrogen starts to rise again, your testosterone starts to rise. And perhaps, I never really had looked at it this way before, but perhaps, you know, that that growing of kind of feeling, lots of ideas, starting to feel more creative. Back being back in your body, that can be a bit too much. Yeah. Your brain for some people, the brain wants to put the brakes on that a little bit like, whoa, whoa, whoa, let’s calm down here. 

Trisha: Yeah. Because our brain is basically, it needs to keep us safe. So if we’re thinking of pulling ourselves out in the world more or being more visible at all of the things which is wonderful in this spring energy, our brain goes, well, this is a bit risky. This doesn’t feel safe. And it wants to put you back in to that comfort zone. And even if you’re miserable in it, stay where you’re safe. So it is it’s it’s it’s very interesting and it’s good that you put it like that. But it’s linked to certain hormones increasing, which is growing. So we want to grow naturally with that. And our brain goes, no. Let’s keep you safe. Let’s get the inner critic putting you down and hopefully you’ll listen to it and keep yourself safe. But you’ve just got to, like I said, just not believe everything you think or tell your brain. Like I said to my brain, sometimes it’s OK. I am safe. If I do these things, I will still be safe. Thank you for letting me know, but I’m OK. I’ve got it. So I chat to my brain and let it know because it, it, it deals like sometimes you can get frustrated with my inner chatter. So horrible. But it is designed to keep you safe. It’s trying and it’s got the best intentions. It’s just not helping you. So you just got to try and do it sometimes like you chat to a friend. 

Le’Nise: Talk a bit about imposter syndrome and why you decided to specialise in this area. 

Trisha: So imposter syndrome, I experienced it for a huge chunk of my life. Now when I look back probably from about the age of 10, I can link experiences of how I experienced it right throughout my corporate career. I had a really successful corporate career. And now I look back and think I missed it all because I was constantly waiting for someone to tap me on the shoulder and go, no you don’t belong here. You shouldn’t be here. You’re not as good as we thought you might have been. Your work isn’t up to scratch. We’re going to have to replace you. Like the whole of that time, I had that niggling in the back of my brain. So when I went to trade as a coach and I kept saying, you need a niche, you need you need to have something that you specialise in. I was looking around thinking I don’t know what it should be. And only through working with a coach, she would say, well, talk to me about what you experienced in the workplace. And I was like, yeah, well, I had all of this going on. And she said, that sounds like imposter syndrome. And I Googled it and I was like, yeah, that’s how I used to feel, wow. And thankfully I’d done lots of personal development and work on myself. So actually, I helped to move myself out of it. Like, I still experience it now, like I’m a recovering imposter. It still comes back every time. Like you said, every time I try and grow and elevate, it’s waited. Whoa, let’s keep you safe. And again, I’d I’d spent 22 years working in the corporate world where we didn’t talk about these things. There was no one I could like. I worked in HR. So there was no one I could go and speak to. But I knew people weren’t coming to me and saying, I’m really struggling with my own self-worth or my stable, my confidence. We were always training people in time management and customer service skills. We weren’t talking about the real stuff that sits underneath us as a human being that helps us thrive more in the workplace. And I was just thinking I experienced this. And I still experience it. You know, the intensity is mild now compared to what it used to be. So I will always be able to resonate with my clients. I’ll understand the journey they’re on. I’ll understand the workplace and how hard it is sometimes to battle with imposter syndrome, while you’ve got all the external factors going on, so I can resonate with that. I will always be working on it myself. And like I said, I’d just like to sort of push the boundaries of the workplace. Like, if we can start to talk about this, then maybe we can start to tackle it from inside the companies as well. A lot of people come to me one on one, but they’re paying for that themselves. But what if companies started to invest in, starting to tackle these things, it’s happening in the workplace. They can avoid it. But if you start to tackle this and let employees know that actually lots of us experience it and we can talk about it and we can look at tools and techniques that we can put in place and reviewing their systems and their processes, because a lot of companies, the way they operate. Actually, it’s a breeding ground. So if you can look at all your policies and your procedures and your ways of working in. You can also change things to help people thrive and overcome their imposter syndrome. Yes. It’s just to me, it’s this big mission of not just helping individuals, but how can we change this whole subject? How can we stop this taboo thing that we all so fearful of letting everyone know that we doubt our abilities? What if we just had these really open conversations? And it’s so wonderful if I do a workshop, you know, the relief that people feel that they’re in a room full of 40 people and then they realise that actually most people in there have those same sort of thoughts going around in their head. It’s such they realise they’re not alone anymore. So for me, it’s just this whole passion of a mission of just just changing the way that people think in their heads, but also that being able to transfer into businesses as well. 

Le’Nise: I interviewed someone earlier in the year who said that imposter, her imposter syndrome. It actually motivated her and it helped her not to get comfortable with where she was in her business and her career. What would you say to that? What would you say to people who say that well actually, imposter syndrome isn’t necessarily a bad thing? 

Trisha: That’s OK as long as it’s from a healthy point of view. So what I find sometimes is people say it helps me to push myself. It helps me to overprepare for things, make sure that everything is right. But you can fall into the trap then of perfectionism and overworking and having, you know, flaky boundaries. Like you’ve got to look at what is driving me. If it’s a good, healthy driver. But what I find sometimes is that you overwork. And what is the reason you’re overworking? You’re over working to prove that you’re good enough. So as long as you get to, is it a healthy thing, that imposter syndrome is giving me that absolutely. Hold onto it. I’m not saying get rid of it. I’m saying minimise it. But if you find it’s holding you back in any way and or it’s making you feel in a negative way or your negative chatter in your head or your behaviours are unhealthy, then tackle it. But if you’ve got a healthy relationship with it, I’m not saying let go of it. But it’s still definitely back to the, is it healthy for me to be constantly over checking and overpreparing things? You’ve got to ask yourself these sort of questions. I can’t answer for an individual. For me, I don’t think that personally healthy, because if I do that, then I’m not doing other things or it’s encroaching into my time where I should be resting, having fun or spending time with loved ones. I think you’ve just got to do a bit of an analysis on. What’s good about it? 

Le’Nise: Yeah. What you’re saying is so interesting, because I definitely say that I have some imposter syndrome, like less so now because I really, really feel like the work that I’m doing. There’s a place for it and it’s important. But definitely when I was working in advertising, I was running a massive account. I was travelling all over the world. But I still had this feeling of this gnawing feeling of, well, you know why, I shouldn’t be here? Why, oh, why am I? Why am I this person? But now I know that, you know, when I go up and I do, I give workshops or do presentations, I know that I’m supposed to be there. They’ve been, I’ve been asked there for a reason. And I know this is the work for me. What would you say to someone who. You’ve given so many amazing tips to people who are feeling imposter syndrome and it’s holding them back. What would you say or your number one tool or piece of advice is for someone who feels crippled by their imposter syndrome. 

Trisha: I think one of the first things I always found, journaling worked really well for me. That’s where I started my journey. And interestingly, I just started writing about what I was grateful for each day. It wasn’t actually even about myself. But because I started to look for things that were positive in the day, started to help my brain rewire and look for positives, and then I just started to journal about, instead of asking the questions, what’s wrong with me? Which is it? You know, we don’t know, but that’s a terrible question because our brain is designed to be, to look for the negative. So if you say what’s wrong with me, your brain is like a loyal servant, it goes, oh, I’ll tell you what’s wrong with you. I’ll give you hundreds of things to tell you. You’ve just got to start asking better questions. So I started to think, you know, I’m a coach, so that that’s what my job is to ask questions. So I thought, what better questions can I ask myself? So I started to. Write down these questions and start to write down the answer, and I find when you get out of your head, like when you just allow your thoughts to go round around in your head, it’s like you give them momentum. It’s like you give them power. And they the negative ones just they sort of like linked together. It’s like a big necklace you’re wearing. But I find when you put pen to paper. It’s like you’re letting that little, I call it like your inner mentor, you’ve got this inner voice inside of you that really knows what you’re good at. Who really believes in you. When you start, I found when I started to write things down, I was quite surprised about, oh, I, I can I write. I have got these skills and yes, I have got these strengths and I started to chip away at the belief that I had for me really all all imposter syndrome is it is a belief that you don’t belong. A belief that you’re not good enough, a belief that you’re not smart enough, a belief that you’re not cool enough to be in this space. A belief that you don’t know enough. It’s all driven by what you believe and your thoughts, your feelings and how you behave is driven by that belief. So you’ve you’ve got to tackle your beliefs. You’ve got to start to question what I believe in. Is this still useful for me right now? Like you’ve said, you’ve got to sit down and go, what are all these beliefs that I’ve got about myself? And I do that with my clients. You know, we we go on a treasure hunt, finding all these beliefs that are driving their thoughts, their feelings and their behaviours. And then you’ve got to start to break those down. And if you start to change what you believe about yourself, like you said, if you start to change how you show up in the world. So even if the first thing you do is just start to ask yourself better questions and write down the answers and start to find evidence to prove that your imposter actually, doesn’t know everything, might think it does, but it doesn’t know everything. And I bet you will have every single person I have never met anybody who doesn’t have skills, knowledge and experience that actually proves that the imposter isn’t right. But I think sometimes we’ve got to also recognise that actually we’re in an environment that can, like I said, can make us feel like an imposter. I was the first person in my family to go to college and work in the corporate world. So I was the first professional in my family, so I didn’t have a role model. So this is how careers go. I was the first one in my family. I worked in a real male dominated, white, male dominated environment. So lots of spaces you you go into was the first person and you don’t always feel like you belong. So it’s our own internal thing. We have to teach ourselves that no matter what the external is telling us, that we have to tell ourselves that we do belong in these spaces. 

Le’Nise: We do belong in these spaces. I think that’s really powerful as a kind of affirmation. I belong. We belong. I love that. If listeners take one thing away from all of the wonderful things that you’ve said on the show today, what would you want that to be? 

Trisha: I would say learn about your cycles like it’s been one of the most precious things that I have discovered in my 40s. So if you’re in your 20s or your 30s, even if you’re in your 40s, it’s good to know because you are surrounded by women in your life. You can help the next generation. We can stop this from happening to women of my age. But let’s stop it. Let’s make sure that we’re teaching the next generations about the magic of being a woman, about power and the energy that we flow in that cycle. If we know that that can change the way that we are. Let’s stop trying to be masculine energy all the time. Let’s. I hate the word hustle. Let’s just not let’s not talk about trying to be a man. Let’s focus on being women, because we are special. We have got something special to offer the world. Let’s use those hormones and all of that energy to drive that. 

Le’Nise: Brilliant. Where can listeners find out more about you? If they want to tackle their imposter syndrome, where can they find you to do that? 

Trisha: Yes, sir. On my Web site, it’s www.trishabarker.com. They can look there. I spend time on Instagram where I’m doing IGTV, et cetera, where I share more stuff around imposter syndrome. Lots more tips and tricks and techniques. That is @theimpostersolution over on Instagram. 

Le’Nise: Brilliant. Thank you so much for coming on the show. I really enjoyed our conversation. 

Trisha: Thank you for doing this work for someone to be getting people like me talking about this. Your your you’re making things happen, you’re changing what it will be like for the next generations. 

Le’Nise: Oh thank you so much. 

Period Story Podcast, Episode 29: Sabi Kerr, I Love Me As I Am Right Now

On today’s episode of Period Story podcast, I had the pleasure of speaking with Sabi Kerr, a self-love coach and yoga teacher. We had a beautiful conversation that got me a bit emotional at one point! We talked about Sabi’s journey on and off the contraceptive pill, the importance of accepting and sitting with ALL the emotions you feel, toxic positivity and moving away from positive vibes only and of course, Sabi’s first period!

Sabi shared the pride she felt when she got her period and how grown up she felt. She says that the conversations she had with her mum and her friends about periods were really open and accepting. How great is that!

We spent time talking about Sabi’s journey with the pill. She went on the pill when she was around 17, 18 years old and only came off it in January this year. She says she was sure that there was a bit of disconnect between her and her period and coming off the pill was her way of changing that.

Sabi had never had any issues or side effects from taking the pill. When she deciding whether to come off the pill, Sabi says she asked herself if she still wanted to be putting it in her body. She was moving back to London from Bali and felt it was the right time to make this transition.

Listen to hear about Sabi’s transition off the pill and what she learned about her menstrual cycle, including how she was able to make space for her emotions and find the permission to accept herself as she is. I confess that I got a bit emotional when we talked about this!

Sabi shared some beautiful affirmations and a mini practice to help name the emotions you feel. Sabi says that to truly love ourselves, we need to start where we’re at. Thank you, Sabi!

Get in touch with Sabi:

Website

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SABI’S BIO

Sabi Kerr is a self-love coach and yoga teacher. She guides women to fall deeper in love with themselves and release the blocks they have to feeling worthy, so that they can create magical lives full of passion and purpose.

Through 1:1 coaching, workshops, yoga, retreats and group programs, Sabi’s mission is to guide as many people as possible back to their natural essence: a place of deep self-love, self-acceptance and joy.

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SHOW TRANSCRIPT

Le’Nise: On today’s episode, we have Sabi Kerr. Sabi is a self love coach and yoga teacher. She guides women to fall deeper in love with themselves and release the blocks they have to feeling worthy so that they can create magical lives full of passion and purpose. Through 1-2-1 coaching workshops, yoga retreats and group programmes, Sabi’s mission is to guide as many people as possible back to their natural essence, a place of deep love, self acceptance and joy. 

Welcome to the show.

Sabi: Thank you so much for having me. 

Le’Nise: Let’s start off by getting into the story of your first period. Can you share with us what happened? 

Sabi: Yeah, I was thinking about this before I came on. I actually had a chat with my mum and to see if we could piece together the memory together because it was obviously quite a while ago. 

So I was around 12. And my mom remembered this, I didn’t. But it was at home and it was just in the toilet. And I called her in to have a look. 

And I do remember feeling quite, quite proud. Quite grown up. Quite like, I probably like, oh, I’m growing up with the grown up thing to have. 

So I think my feelings around it were feeling proud. Feeling quite happy. Feeling like I was probably like I’m you know, I’m more or about those kind of feelings. So yeah. I was. That was it. 

Le’Nise: Why do you think that you’ve felt so grown up?

Sabi: I guess it’s that that kind of transition when you’re you know, I was around 12. So about to be a teenager. So already that’s the kind of age where you’re starting to feel more grown up. Right. When you when you hit 13, it’s like, oh, I’m kind of a teenager now. So because it was around I was 12. It was around that age. I think any anything in life that happens that make makes you feel a little more grown up. And I guess having your period is one of those things. You’re no longer you’re still a child, obviously. But you associate that with something that a woman has, I think when you’re younger.

Le’Nise: And when you got your first period, you took your mum into the bathroom with you. What was her reaction and how did you how did she educate you about what was happening to you? 

Sabi: Yeah. So I can’t remember her exact reaction. But knowing my mum, I know it would have been quite an encouraging, like, oh, yay. Like, I don’t think she would have said well done. But it would have been quite encouraging and quite supportive. And obviously, she saw that I was feeling quite feeling quite proud about it. So I think it would have just been quite encouraging response she would have given me. 

Le’Nise: And then I guess you would you would have gone back into school and talked about it with your friends. How did they react? 

Sabi: It’s funny how many of these memories are clearer than others, and I haven’t got a particular memory, I just have a feeling. And I think the feeling that I had at that time was, yeah, this was something I talked about with my friends. I think probably some of them had already had theirs. Some of them hadn’t. I remember it being something that I spoke about quite openly with my friends in quite a neutral way. Like it wasn’t that it was great. It wasn’t that it was bad. It was just this is your period, you know. So, yeah, I think I remember speaking to friends about it and being quite an accepted thing to speak about. 

Le’Nise: That’s so interesting because the guests on the show, they’ve shared different reactions about getting their period and their conversations with their friends. And some some of them have said it was there was a lot of secrecy around it and they didn’t want to talk about it. But then others, like you, have said it was an open conversation. And actually, one guest I spoke to a couple of weeks ago said that it was they all thought it made them really cool and everyone wanted to be a part of the period gang. 

Sabi: Yeah, that that and again, these memories aren’t like that clear, but I feel like mine is probably more something like that, probably more, probably like feeling proud, feeling grown up, probably feeling cool was in there too. 

Le’Nise: And that feeling of being proud of your period, has that has that continued as you’ve gotten older, as you went through your teenage years and gotten older? 

Sabi: Yeah. Maybe not. Maybe it’s been an interesting journey, actually. I think after then, I think I probably just saw it as something that happened, you know, just something natural, something I didn’t really give much thought to. I saw it as something kind of neutral, not not nothing terrible, but also nothing in particular to celebrate, just something that happens. For me, it’s been a real process because I went on the pill when I was young, around 18, 17 even could have been until just recently came off it. And I’m 31 now. So around 13 years. It’s a long time not having a natural period. And that’s a long time, you know, suppressing something that’s a really natural part of you. So I think because I haven’t had hadn’t until now had a natural period for so long, there was I’m sure a bit of a disconnect between myself and my period, because it wasn’t a real period. And I knew exactly what was coming. I knew exactly how, you know, it was everything was kind of clockwork. I could stop when I whenever I felt like I could take another path of pills. 

So there was something there about around not fully celebrating it and coming off it. What month are we in now, June? About six months ago. I came off at the beginning of the year. 

And it’s amazing, kind of really getting to know your body better and feeling like now I feel like I can actually celebrate it, you know? And that wasn’t really there before. 

Le’Nise: Wow. So there’s so much I want to ask you. So can you talk firstly about why you went on the pill when you were 17, 18? 

Sabi: Yeah. Just for contraception. Just because that’s so. I didn’t have any. It wasn’t. No. Wasn’t any of the other reasons that people go on the pill, which aren’t contraception, it was purely for contraception. And just for that, feels like the easiest contraception to me. And I will say that my body was absolutely fine on the pill. I had no no negative side effects. Nothing bad happened, which was probably why I stayed on it so long. Because I never I felt absolutely fine. So yeah, so that was why I started going on it. 

Le’Nise: OK. And can you talk a little bit about why you decided six months ago to come off of the pill? 

Sabi: I think it had been a thought in the back of my mind for a while. I kind of thought, do I still want to be putting this into my body. Do I still want to have my body in a natural state continuously? Is it really needed? And that had been, that had been something that had been going on in the back of my mind for a while. But because my body had worked so well with the pill, I’d had I’d never had any. To my knowledge, right. To obvious knowledge, I’ve never had any side effects. Nothing had ever gone wrong. So it was just very easy to continue to take it. And I think that was probably all actually there was a worry of like if I stopped taking it, what might happen? Because you hear all kinds of stories about people coming off the pill after a long time and their bodies not liking the moment they come off. So that was something that was there for me as well. But I think it just got to the point of, like, now is the time. 

There’s no reason for me to continue. Like, this is a good. And I’d also come back to London from from Bali. So I felt like I was in a kind of safer place from a medical point of view, if I need to to the doctors or anything like that. So, yeah, it was kind of like, now is the time. 

Le’Nise: You had a very smooth time on the pill and then the transition off of the pill.  So can you talk a little bit about the last six months and how that transition has been, but also what you’ve started to learn about your body? 

Sabi: So many things. So firstly, I think my transition is, I don’t know. You will know more than me, actually. I only really know from my perspective and from what I’ve heard. I was worried about coming off the pill because I’ve heard, you know, horror stories about how hard it is for people. Actually, for me, it was the smoothest transition ever. I got my, you know. It was so much ever since coming off the pill. 

My cycle’s been 27 days, 28, 29, 30, in that space. Straight away. Straight away. So that was I was surprised. I wasn’t expecting that at all. At all.  Obviously, really happily surprised that my body was able to to go to that natural space so, so quickly. 

And feeling actually not that different. So it was like all of me, like feeling surprisingly like, oh, this was way easier than I thought it was going to be. What other things do I remember noticing? I remember noticing like that, the blood seems different. Like, oh, this looks like real blood now. Almost, I don’t quite know how to to sort of to describe it almost redder, almost just like almost just like how blood is supposed to be. 

So that was something funny that I remember noticing.

And I think what the most beautiful part of the last six months has been is tracking my cycle and making more space for all of my emotions, which is something that I do anyway. And a big part of my my work as a self-love coach when I’m working with clients and also just my personal self development work is really to welcome in all emotions. It’s to welcome in all of the things that I’m feeling and see that they’re all part of us and accept them and love them. And when you track your cycle, it gives you an even even more of a reason to do that. Yeah, I’m feeling like this. Like this is my hormones. This is how my body works. And it gives you even more permission to accept yourself as you are. To love yourself, and however, your emotions are each day in that moment. So I think that’s been a really, really beautiful process. And it’s been really aligned with what I try to practise anyway. So I’ve definitely really enjoyed that. Yeah. 

Le’Nise: What you said is so beautiful about, accept yourself as you are. I just I love that. I actually feel a bit emotional hearing you say that, because I know that that is a journey that a lot of people go through and perhaps they never get to that point. You you said that you’ve you’ve always been really aware of your emotions and you’re open to how you feel. Have you noticed, as you’ve been tracking your cycle over the last six months, any change in your emotions as you go through each of the phases? 

Sabi: Yeah. I need to put it all on a spreadsheet and do some data analysis. Which is something I have been planning to do. I haven’t got round to doing it yet. Sometimes I feel like I have, I’m still quite, you know, it’s quite early on in my tracking my cycle journey. 

Sometimes I find it challenging to know if this is my hormones or this is just what’s going on in my life right now. But a general feeling of the kind of. 

Yeah. Like the spring, summer fades, feeling more productive and being able to do more things. I think I think I’ve noticed that. I’ve definitely noticed that. And then when like moving into the autumn when and I don’t always feel crappy, you know, but if I do feel really crappy and I know it’s that phase in my cycle, that almost gives me more permission to be like, it’s okay. You’re having you’re having a crappy day like, that’s absolutely fine. It reinforces that that’s okay. 

Le’Nise: I think that’s really nice that you’ve been able to say to yourself, you know, that’s OK, and that it’s almost like not giving in to, you know, whatever kind of negative side, because I know that a lot of a lot of people, they they expect to feel bad when they get their period or right before they get their period.  And they you know, in that sense, I think it’s something that we’ve been taught that we just need to fall into this kind of abyss, is too strong a word. 

But this kind of feeling of, oh, I feel really down. I feel really negative about getting my period and how I feel right before my period. And I love the fact that you’ve given yourself permission to say that’s OK. 

Sabi: Yeah. Yeah. That’s OK. And sometimes I feel great. And that’s great too. And I think it’s it’s accepting whatever is without having to expect that you’re going to feel a certain way. But knowing that it’s all it’s all welcome. Yeah. 

Le’Nise: You seem very in touch with your emotions and very self-aware. And as a self-love coach, that’s something that you work with other people on. Can you talk a bit about your journey to getting to this place of openness and awareness? 

Sabi: Yeah, I think I see anytime you have things in life that are challenging, you know, any any moments that trigger those and the emotions, the kind of the shadow emotions. So so if you have if you think like the joy, the happy, the excited, the energetic, those are all the emotions that that we like to label as positive. Right. Positive. And the emotions like anger, the sadness, the grief, the frustration, we label them again, air quotes, negative. And we as humans really like to label those emotions as positive and negative. But I think what that does is it takes takes us out of, like, just the human experience to know these aren’t good or bad. They are all part of the human experience. And when we push away the so-called negative emotions, we push away a big part of what it is to be human. So I think my personal practise has been the times when I feel those more challenging emotions. So, you know, any life experiences that might trigger them. Anything that can happen that feels that feels quite challenging might trigger the anger, the frustration, the sadness, the grief, rather than bypassing them, rather than trying not to feel them, rather than rushing to the joy straight away, rather than numbing my emotions with food, with TV, with drugs, with all of the numbing mechanisms. Can you actually be with them and can you actually allow them and make a little space for them? 

Because it’s you know, it’s like anything that cliche of things often cliche because they’re true. The cliche of like you need to move through them to actually come out the other side. So you need to make space for them. So that’s something that I do personally and work with one to one client. And so I have like a little mini practice that maybe I’ll share. 

Of like actually naming the thing that you’re feeling. Making some space so you can take this as a little ritual or a meditation, naming. 

You can close your eyes, naming the feelings, the emotions that you’re feeling, the anger, the frustration, the sadness, whatever. 

And then, you know, just stay with them. 

Close your eyes, breathe there. Notice where in the body, you’re feeling that anger, that frustration, rather than pushing it away. You can say it’s safe for me to feel angry. I’m making space for myself to feel angry right now. 

And I love the parts of me, that are feeling angry. And that is that is like deep self love. My self love will never be positive vibes only. Self love is about welcoming in every single part of ourselves, including the part that feels angry, including the part that feels jealous. So I’m making space for that. Breathing there without the need to rush away, to push it away and sit there for as long as you need. You know, five minutes, ten minutes, an hour. Sometimes those strong, challenging emotions kind of dissipate by themselves just by sitting with them. 

Sometimes we need to actually release that can be like. Shaking the body, that can be punching a pillow, that can be screaming if you’re in a safe place, that can be like journalling it all out and releasing it with paper onto paper. Yeah. That is such an important process. I think for all humans to realise that these are welcome. And actually, when you welcome them in not wallowing in them, not like wallowing in them. But when you welcome them in and make a little space for them to be felt, that is actually how we get to the joy quicker anyway. You know, the actual actual real deep joy there. Don’t bypass those more challenging emotions. 

Le’Nise: Yeah, I, I love what you’ve said there because it, it’s something that we, we get taught like just don’t be angry, don’t cry. 

You know, you think about it like I think about and I actively do this with my son. 

I say, you know, it’s OK to cry. It’s okay. I know you’re angry. It’s OK to be angry because I remember when I was younger, you know, I was taught, you know, why are you crying? Don’t cry. It’s, you know, stop crying. 

And and I you know, I never cry now because I but when I do cry, it’s always like I am an ugly crier because I feel like it’s because I put I hold so much in and there’s so much to get out. And I actively say to my son, it’s OK to cry. It’s OK. OK, you want to scream right now, you can scream for, you know, a couple of minutes and then let it go and then you need to stop. But we get taught that we have to tamp down our emotions. Especially, as women to fit into this space and we make ourselves smaller and naming the emotions and sitting with them is so it’s different but it’s oh it’s just, it’s so, so powerful. 

Sabi: Yeah. It really, really is. I love what, I love what you just said about. Yeah. Making ourselves smaller by not expressing them because those are parts about our truth you know. Yeah. Those are parts our truth too. The angry parts, the frustrated parts, the sad parts. And we don’t allow ourselves to express them, we’re we’re shrinking our voice. You know, we’re we’re not allowing all parts of ourselves to be to be seen, which can be such a proud, uncomfortable, but really, really empowering when you start to welcome in all parts of your of your being.. 

Le’Nise: You said about how you don’t like, you’re not about positive vibes, only. Talk a little bit about this toxic positivity and what you see in the community, the coaching community, and also perhaps because you’re also a yoga teacher. Also what you see in the yoga community. 

Sabi: Oh, my goodness. Thanks for asking me this question. 

This is such a great question because I’m actually I’m doing a [IG] live tomorrow on the topic of spiritual bypassing. Which is which is just the right. Positive vibes only, like I think the initial intention was good. It would like to make people feel better, which was always a great thing to kind of want and aim for. 

Right. We all want to feel better. 

But the the challenge with positive vibes only is that it makes us feel bad if we don’t feel positive vibes all the time. And it’s like, guess what? It is human to not feel positive all the time and to to make people think they have to be positive all the time is to deny a big part of our human experience, which is all of the emotion. And if you’re positive vibes only, that is saying you have to deny every single one of the more shadow emotions, you know, and then you don’t get to express a big part of who you are. 

And yeah, so on. And that is a big part of spiritual bypassing this this idea that we can use spiritual concepts and terms and words like love and peace and light to bypass the actual real real issues and things that are going on in the world. To bypass the real injustices, to bypass like the the real challenges that people are having. And I see that a lot in the spiritual community, in the yoga community, the preaching of love and light, but then actually bypassing looking at the real issues of how I can really help people. The current racism issue is one of those examples, right? Yoga communities, wellness communities preaching love and light, but actually not doing anything to help the people that really need really, really, actually need help and that have been going on for, like, ever, you know. The spiritual industry is is commercialised now, it’s a moneymaking industry, and I think I struggle with the disconnect between the front facing message of love and light and peace. And then behind the scenes, lots of people not actually doing their real work to actually help people. So, yeah, it’s such is such a big topic. I think now more than ever, for our industry to really look at more. 

Le’Nise: What would you say to someone who they hear what you’re saying and they get that they need to, there’s a place for being angry. Feeling sad. But they they’ve said, actually, I don’t, I really connect with the positive vibes only space idea. But, you know, I just you know, I just don’t want negativity around me. 

Sabi: Yeah. And what I would say, why is anger negative? And this, again, come back to a human like inherent nature of impacting things as positive and negative. I would say, why is anger negative? Why is sadness negative? You know, why is grief negative? I think even just labelling them as negative gives us that connotation that they are bad. And, you know, most people feel like I’m one of the smiley people that I know. Right. I smile all the time like I’m a again, air quotes. I’m a positive person. 

But I’m a positive person that knows I can’t bypass the real stuff, the deep stuff, the shadows stuff. 

So I think anyone that says I just want to be positive vibes only I don’t want any negativity. If they’re then bypassing these more challenging emotions. There’s some stuff deep inside of them that needs to be looked at. A lot of the time. And, you know, the thing is, everyone is on their own journey. Right. 

And it’s not my responsibility, your responsibility, anyone’s responsibility to to make people see things until they’re ready. You know, it’s everybody’s individual responsibility to see the things going on in their lives when they’re ready to see them. And I think that it’s important to to remember as well. We can only do our own individual work. And most people will see the things when they’re when they’re ready to see the things. Yeah. Right now, maybe they’re bypassing because they just aren’t unable to hold space for themselves yet. Who knows? 

Le’Nise: What do you think about the idea that right now we’re going through a great awakening? 

Sabi: Mm hmm. Yeah, we really are. Wow. We so are. And I think. It’s interesting. I don’t know how you feel like being a woman of colour, at a time when so many white people in our industry are awakening to what’s going on with race and with racism. I know for me it feels like. Most of the world is just waking up to what I’ve known my whole life. 

We knew this and you didn’t listen to us. It’s that feeling of like. But that is great. You know, I’m I’m I’m glad it’s. It’s better now than never. And I’m glad that people are finally starting to realise it’s saddening and frustrating what had to happen for people to actually wake up. 

But I’m glad and I’m hopeful. It feels like this kind of a shift hasn’t happened in my lifetime that I’m aware of, you know. So I’m hopeful that more people are doing really important work. More than ever before. So, yes, there is definitely lots of lots of waking up going on. 

And I think that can only be a good thing, but it needs to be continuous. You know, it is like it needs to be something that continues to be looked at. 

I think especially on the topic of racism, it’s like this is not just a let’s do some education for a week and then go back to how we were before. It’s like there is no back to normal. There is no back to normal. This is the new normal. This is a new way of living. This awakening is welcoming in for a lot of people, a new way of looking at the world. And I think that’s what we need to realise that. We’re, yeah, we’re starting a totally new way of living. Yeah. 

Le’Nise: A new way of looking at the world and connecting with the way that a lot of people have already seen the world. And I think it’s really sad that it took these videos of Black death. Black pain for people to open their eyes and see what we already knew and have known for a long time. 

But I really I’m hopeful and I never would have used that word before. 

But I do feel hopeful that this change continues to make people evaluate the way they speak, the way they think about things. And I think, you know, just looking at the industry, the wellness industry, the industry that we both work in, I think there’s a lot of change that needs to happen. And hopefully people are open to that change happening. Yeah. I don’t want to go too deeply into diversity in wellness because I feel like it’s something that, you know, I. I am sure that you’ve been on a diversity in wellness panel. I definitely have. And I would love it if it just stopped being a conversation and just been a thing just to become a thing that people actually do. But I just want to ask you, what are the three things that you think need to be done in the wellness industry to make real change? 

Sabi: Yeah. Firstly, before any of the change happens, people need to know why they’re actually making the changes. I think this is the most important thing. I know. I’ve I’ve shared a lot of things and I’ve said a lot of things. And and maybe what I haven’t said enough, is that before, you know, like having women of colour on your podcast is great, having more people in teaching and yoga classes is great, looking at your teacher trainings and the teachers that are on there, the people that are coming, offering them bursaries. If they’re, you know, a person of colour like all these these things are great, but a very, very, very but, is first of all, this list is not exhaustive. It is not a checklist. And most importantly, you can’t do all those things without actually doing the education first and understanding why you are doing these things. You know that education starts with reading a book. It starts with going to a webinar, but it continues by hiring someone that is trained in diversity in wellness that can continuously, continuously help you or your company do that. So it continues by you hiring and paying a person that is an expert in this area that can help you and your company. And I think that’s that’s what needs to be a continuous thing. The education and the consulting and paying of people that are experts in this area to help you to implement all of the other things that need to be done. 

Le’Nise: I want to shift gears a little bit and go back to talking about the work that you do, because it’s so interesting. I’ve never I’ve never actually met a self-love coach before. So talk a little bit about why you decided to go into this particular area of coaching. 

Sabi: Yeah, so I was definitely. So I did a diploma in transformational coaching. And I’ve done lots of other other types of work beforehand. But I’m a yoga teacher as well. And as I was trying to get more specific on my niche, you know, I was like, I know I want to work with women. I know I want to help them transform their lives, I know I want to help them feel more empowered. And as I was wanting to get more specific on my niche, I realised the links, like all of the women that I’ve worked with so far, the kind of the link that connects all of them with this feeling of worthiness. And for them to have what they were truly desiring in their life, whether it was a more successful business, a more nourishing relationship, a lifestyle that they loved, more stability and whatever it was, the thing that was often blocking them was how worthy they felt of actually having their desires, how worthy they felt of them selves as they are right now. And. Therefore, how worthy they also felt of the things that they were calling into their lives. That was for me, you know, the the link that I saw. And lots of the time I see, you know, it is like to have a life that we are really desiring and that can look like the external goals of the home, the money, the job. But it can also look like the internal goals of just how you feel. And to have that life, we first need to believe that we’re truly worthy of having that life. So, yeah, that was that just feels like something I feel personally so, so connected to and so passionate about sharing. And I just really, really love seeing the transformations that women can make when they see and know that they are truly, inherently worthy just as they are. 

Le’Nise: If someone is listening to this and they they hear what you’re saying and they think I, I don’t I realise I don’t feel worthy in various areas of their lives. What would your message be to them? 

Sabi: Mm hmm. So first of all, it’s OK. We don’t have to jump from like I hate myself to I love myself overnight. 

So almost like almost like the kind of the shadow emotions I was talking about before. Can you learn to love the you right now that doesn’t feel totally worthy. Can you actually accept that you and welcome in that you and if you can work on that, that’s already, that’s already working on your self love. So knowing that it’s okay to make tiny incremental steps in self love to go from like self-hate to kind of just being neutral, to go from neutral to like loving yourself a little bit and knowing that that’s okay. Like, anything, any kind of mindset shift takes takes time, but it’s finding acceptance along the way. Self love is not a destination of you’re there and you’re done. And for me, it is the same. Self-love is something I practise every single day, every single moment. Life gives me opportunities to to love myself more. Especially those challenging times, especially when the shadow emotions come up, because it’s easy to love yourself when you’re happy, when you’re making money, when you’re like when you’re in a loving relationship, when everything’s going well. It’s really easy to love yourself then. But it’s like, can you find and make space to love yourself when you’re not feeling so great, when you’re not positive vibes only. Can you start to find some acceptance for you there in those moments? So that’s why I say start where you’re at. You don’t need you don’t need to conquer self love in a day. Start where you’re at. And a really beautiful affirmation. There’s so many. 

But it’s like it’s safe for me to be as I am right now or I love me as I am right now. 

Le’Nise: Wow. I love me as I am right now. Oh, wow. Chills, I’m feeling chills. So where can listeners get in touch with you? They listen to what you said. They they want to know more. How can they find you? 

Sabi: Yeah. So it’s because I’m really active on Instagram, which is just my name: @sabi.kerr. And my web site is www.sabikerr.com. So both of Instagram and my website, there’s information about me, about coaching if anyone’s interested in working together. So, yeah.

Le’Nise: Great. So if listeners take one thing away from all of the insights that you’ve shared on this show, what would you want that to be? 

Sabi: Hmm. Probably the last, probably that last affirmation that it’s safe to love you as you are right now, that you don’t need to be fixed, that you don’t need to be changed. That right now, as you are, you are enough.

Le’Nise: Thank you so much for coming on the show. It’s just been wonderful speaking to you. 

Sabi: Thank you so much for having me. It’s been so much fun. 

Period Story Podcast, Episode 28: Natalie Costa, Be Gentle With Yourself

On today’s episode of Period Story, I am so pleased to share my conversation with Natalie Costa, the founder of Power Thoughts. We talked about the importance of identifying which thoughts you choose to believe, managing pre-menstrual anxiety, and of course Natalie’s first period!

Natalie shared that her first period was a shock and something she wasn’t ready for. She says that slowly she started to become more accepting of it, but it wasn’t something she looked forward to (I’m sure a lot of you can relate to this!).

Natalie talks about growing in South Africa and how the conservative culture affected how she learnt about her period. She says it’s taken her time to become more open about talking about menstruation and that her former job as a teacher helped with this.

We talked about how Natalie learned to tune into her menstrual cycle more and how she connected this with work and the way she exercises. She says that she really has to listen to her body and resist doing high impact exercise when her body is craving something slow and steady.

Natalie says she asks herself: what can I do to be gentle with myself. She says she’s more aware of negative chatter that happens before her period and is able to manage it and work with it. Listen to hear the morning rituals Natalie uses to quieten down and centre her mind.

We talk about Natalie’s brilliant work supporting children by helping them tap into the power of their thoughts and recognise they don’t have to believe everything they think or respond to every feeling. Natalie shares some brilliant tips and I’ve been using them with my son!

Natalie says that as adults, we need to remember that we don’t need to believe every thought we think and that it’s so important to be gentle with ourselves and I completely agree!

Get in touch with Natalie:

Website

Instagram

Facebook

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NATALIE’S BIO

Natalie Costa is an award winning coach, author and founder of Power Thoughts – a coaching service she created to give children the ‘power’ over their own thoughts!

With a background in psychology and having spent 12 years within the educational sector as well as becoming an accredited Performance Coach, Power Thoughts was born – which blends her past experience and deep understanding of children and their needs, now providing them with the tools to help them cope and thrive in the modern world.

Supporting children from as young as five, Natalie has delivered Power Thoughts to over 6,500 children within schools and online.

Her programs are designed to help children recognise that they don’t have to respond to every thought that they think, or react to everything that they feel. By doing this they are able to grow in confidence, feel happier and be more robust in dealing with the pressures of school, exams, transitioning, making friends etc.

Natalie has been featured in the national press and TV, such as Stella Magazine, The Telegraph, Metro, Glamour Magazine, Good Morning Britain and BBC Breakfast. She is also the co-author of ‘Find Your Power!’  and ‘Stretch Your Confidence!’ – two activity books for children that support their mental wellbeing.

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SHOW TRANSCRIPT

Le’Nise: Welcome to the show. Let’s start off by getting in to the story of your first period. Can you tell us what happened? 

Natalie: Oh, yes. So I think I was about twelve. No, I was 13. I was 13. And it was round round about my birthday. I remember it was winter, because I come from South Africa. So it was June is my birthday. And it’s it’s cold. It’s winter. And I remember going to my parents loo, and I came out and I was like, I knew what was happening. Like, I’ve been told about periods and stuff. But I remember feeling really sad. My mom was really happy, but I just felt really I think for the first time that that feeling of, you know, what’s happening in my body, I don’t have control of what’s happening. And I’ll be honest, I also I was a little bit grossed out. It’s sort of a harsh word But I wasn’t, I definitely wasn’t embracing it. It was definitely a shock and not a pleasant shock as well. 

It’s not something that I wanted to happen, whether that was I still wanted to be a little girl or I didn’t know I wasn’t ready for the next phase of what was going to come. But I remember it was more shock. But as in a negative way, definitely that feeling of oh, no, what is this? So, yeah, it wasn’t a positive experience for me.

Le’Nise: How long did it take you to get over that initial shock? And did did it change into a positive at any point?

Natalie: I think. 

Yeah, I mean, it slowly, I think I slowly started to become like more accepting of it. But I mean, I, I absolutely hated wearing pads and I felt like I was wearing a nappy. And I used to play hockey and things like that. So I really it was just really it was uncomfortable. It wasn’t something that I looked forward to. And I just found it really messy. So it wasn’t, I don’t think it was a very positive experience early on in my life. I mean, it became one of those things that it was just another thing that happened. And I was quite fortunate not to really struggle with any sort of period pains or things like that. I’d often joke with my friends saying, you know, I never know. It just comes. So it is never like any PMS signs or things that you read about in magazines. Like, I just it just it would just be that I’d be like, oh, shit, here it is. I would say I wasn’t a very positive like relationship with that. And I think as well, just growing up. And obviously my mom always would educate us and you know, she’d be available to talk to. So we were able to talk to her about these things. But it was also something that wasn’t spoken about. If that makes sense. It wasn’t necessarily coming from her. I just think with society in general, just you just don’t talk about your periods and things like that. And it’s it’s something that you should. That’s quite gross. And you shouldn’t know nothing. You shouldn’t have them because I happened like, that’s just what happens. But it’s almost like that was the feeling that I had around it. So not very positive.

Le’Nise: Growing up in South Africa, why don’t you think that these things were spoken about?

Natalie: I think it’s very conservative in nature. Very traditional, very. Yeah, I mean, I did grow up in a bit of a conservative home as well, so you just don’t talk about that, just like you don’t really, you know, in general talk about sex and things like that. And I remember I went to this lady, this sounds really weird, but a group of, me and a group of friends. We went to this, because back then as well, schools didn’t offer sex education or talking about things, I mean, was very, very conservative. And sex was almost like a bad word, do you know what I mean. And we went to this lady. Probably when I was in about standard five. That’s the end of primary school years. And I think what’s that’s, year 7 here. And she, that was like my first introduction to what happens in your body and sex and periods and things like that. It was just it’s just really bizarre in terms of I think that the whole mindset of obviously parents, you know? Well, definitely my parents and friends of my you know, my parents, my friend’s parents as well, just don’t talk about this. Kind of outsourced it to somebody else to tell us about. So it’s just not something that I think and I think even if I had to speak to my mom now, it’s not something that she would have spoken about, really. I can’t imagine speaking openly about it. So something that happens and this is how we deal with it and we move on.

Le’Nise: Do you think your views have changed? Do you feel like you’re, I mean, you’re on the show today talking about it. So let me change the question. What made you more open to talking about periods and menstruation?

Natalie: I think it’s just kind of the change. Various factors, it was the change of times. Like we’re a lot more open in terms of what we speak about. It’s a normal part of being a woman. Why would we have to shun it or try and hide it? I think as well as a former teacher as well and also working with young girls and sometimes in year six, girls having their first period. And, you know, it’s all of those like those feelings that come up. And I think it’s it’s definitely it’s still a journey for myself. So obviously, I’m a lot more open to it. And this is just who I am and it’s what my body does. So I think it’s it’s and it’s also obviously educating myself like the books I read magazines and just what you see in the media. And I suppose what I choose to follow and consume and my social media is very much pro and supportive and open and, you know, being able to embrace all of these areas. So for me, if I look at my media, social media feed, it’s kind of like that’s my world, do you know what I mean. So it doesn’t make the conversation taboo. And I think it’s just why aren’t we talking about this? You know, why is it not just a normal thing? It’s not gross. It’s not disgusting. It can be painful, but it’s it’s part of who we are. You know, I mean, it fascinates me. I’m not very I’m not as informed as what I’d like to be.

But I do have a friend who is very much in tune with her cycle. And I think even becoming self-employed really highlights to me how my cycle impacts my day to day work and what I do. Putting with that though, still unlearning a lot of habits, moving from the teaching world and the push, push, push and the grind, grind, grind and all of that. But I’m aware as well that there are certain times in the months when, OK, this is probably when you’re feeling like this is not this has got to do a lot more with what’s going on inside of you versus what’s going on outside of you. So just even having has power and I think being able to educate people now about that and young girls about that, golly, if I had this at school when I was in primary school, even, you know, just even it is a simple format. I just think it would change so much in terms of how people move forward. Men and women, you know, which is just as knowledge and knowledge is empowerment, you know?

Le’Nise: I just want to go back to what you said about being self-employed and working around your menstrual cycle. Can you give us a few or an example of how you’ve been able to put that into practise? I know you said it’s a work in progress, but in terms of what you’ve started doing, can you talk us still just a little bit about that? 

Natalie: I think the main thing at the moment, and I’m definitely not as good as my friend because she is brilliant in terms that she would not all the time, but she would track where she books in talks and speaking gigs versus when she doesn’t. And I’m not like that because I’m like, cool, they won’t be added to it. But I think the main thing for me at the moment is, like I said, it’s a work in progress, is becoming aware of mindsets. And for me, in the onset, too. When my when my period’s about to start, I know I am hypersensitive. The negative thoughts are increasingly a lot more, more so than what they would normally be. The anxiety, the feelings of anxiety are higher. And even I guess it comes up with me when I do my workouts because I love exercise. I love fitness and not pushing myself. But probably the most it’s it’s not being giving myself such a hard time if I can’t do what I’ve intended to set out to do, because actually I realised, okay, this is my body and listening to my body. So then perhaps having days where it’s low impact exercises versus repetitive high impact kind of things or just going for a slow run is probably a large part at the moment of how I see myself adapting to that.

But I would love to get to the point of being able to book my work around it because I think it would be phenomenal.

Le’Nise: I have to say, even though that this is this is the work that I do, I haven’t got to that point either, because I just you know, when the work comes, you know, you need to do the work. But, you know, it’s definitely a work, a work in progress and once you’re able to do it. But the fact that you’re able to think about your cycle when you exercise, I think is really, really important. I was actually speaking to an athlete today and she was we were talking about menstrual cycles and I was talking about how, the importance for athletes and anyone who does like a lot of exercise to think about their menstrual cycle, because there are times in your cycle, like the first half, where you put on, you’re more likely to put on muscle because of the rising oestrogen and testosterone. But you have more energy towards for those things. Whereas in the second half of your cycle where you have the rising oestrogen and progesterone, that’s actually the time for cardiovascular exercise. And you’re more likely to make cardiovascular gains then. 

Natalie: Yeah, really, it makes sense, though, because if I think about the times, I really want to go for a run. Internally, I’m like, I cannot face doing high reps, high HIIT workouts. It’s like I just want something that’s to move my body but in a slow and steady space. So it’s not even like sprints to things like that. It’s just a slow, steady run or low impact where perhaps, you know, maybe like I think when the gym are open, I can maybe incorporate more of a leg day, but with no jumps and just kind of keep it really low base, you know, low flow, intensity based. And I think that to me has been a big thing because I don’t know. I mean, ever since my teens, it’s always been I had a lot of like there’s a lot of work in terms of me and my relationship with my body. I mean, I had a lot of other girls and men as well. So it’s been a real thing for me to unlearn. That I don’t have to be killing it in every single workout in order to have some positive benefits from that, you know, and that’s a really long journey because for a very long time that was like. Right. I was like maxing out and do as many and, you know, you know, now it’s more constructive. Yeah. So I just wanted to say, I mean, like what you were saying about your work in progress. That’s what I think the main thing is, just it is having that awareness. I think ideally I’d love to be able to book in speaking gigs and like the world goes according to my cycle. You know, I don’t see that that’s that’s available because, like, the work comes in, but it’s in. Okay. How do I show up knowing that maybe it’s day one or all I really want to do is be in bed. So what can I do to be gentle with myself? You know, following what I have to do, I have to perform. Right. Okay. Understanding. And then, you know, what can I do to be gentle with myself versus beating myself up? 

Le’Nise: That is such an amazing point. I think that cycle awareness is so is such an important part of understanding how you can be gentle with yourself. And also this idea of tenderness, knowing that you’re on day one. And so, you know, it varies for everyone. But, you know, you might. Your energy is likely to be lower than it is, say, and day midway through your cycle. So no matter what you have what you have to do. How can you show for yourself in the gentlest, most tender way possible?

Natalie: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Which still it’s still a work in progress. 

So it’s quite funny because even today I got a little I got that I think it’s the Moody app and I’m still learning to figure out how it works, but I just haven’t gone into it yet. But a little notification came up, say it’s a good time to remember to be sensitive and gentle with yourself today and I’m like, oh, this makes sense because this morning everything was in full flow in my bride, I got like, all right. It’s it’s just it’s just having that as an awareness, you know? 

Le’Nise: I love the Moody app. The team there is amazing. So it’s brilliant that you’re using it.

But I think just going back to what you were saying about how before your period you get these heightened thoughts, you know, anxious thoughts or self-doubt. Do you feel, are you more aware now that they’re that those things are happening? And the second part of the question is, what do you do to to help yourself in those moments?

Natalie: Yeah, I do. I definitely notice I’m more aware that it’s happening. So while it doesn’t stop the negative chatter or those feelings coming up and like, I know why this is happening because I’m coming closer.

So that’s like my hormones, that’s PMS and also that I get really, actually the older I’ve gotten, the tearier I get as well. Definitely the more emotional I get. I mean, in terms what helps me. Well, it’s always I’ve always struggled with anxiety as a child and I think into adulthood as well. But it’s been it’s been quite manageable. But it is there. Do you know I mean, I was I was diagnosed with depression in my early teens and into my 20s, but I’ve definitely been able to manage it and to work with it. But in those times especially, I’ve noticed as I’ve become older, because when I was younger, I didn’t really notice so much of the change between not being on my period and being on my period. It just kind of flowed into one. It was definitely more gradual, whereas now it’s like night and bloody day. It’s like, who is this person? But it always comes back to doing those things that I know will keep me grounded. So that is about not looking at my phone first thing in the morning, doing some meditation or mindfulness exercises where I just get to like sit and centre my mind and it’s kind of quieten things down. Exercise in the morning is really important as well. I find that if I don’t exercise, whether that is even yoga or just anything in terms of moving my body, the mental chatter, those feelings are definitely a lot more heightened. And I’ve gotten into such a routine. I’ve been doing it for years in the mornings. So I know that that always sets me up to be clearer headed. Even if I wake up and I in this fog, if I do the exercise, I’m like, oh, well. Right. What was that about? Like, literally, it’s like a night and day again in terms of how it helps. And I think so that’s what I do. And then I try to do it as consistently as possible. I must be honest, since lockdown, it’s been a lot harder for me to have that. Because my husband’s at home. So there’s just more distraction in terms of because before, you know, we’d get up, go to the gym together. There’d be more structure. Whereas now we’re sleeping a bit later and all of these sort of things. So I’ve definitely noticed a bit of a dip. But in saying that, when I come back to the meditations and even if I do them a bit later, I find that that really, really does help. And then even using some other strategies in terms of, what is it that I’m thinking, what are all these negative thoughts, let’s put them down. And what I teach the children, let’s look for evidence as to why these are not true. Let’s look for clues as to why this thought, you’re thinking, no one’s going to buy your programme is not true. Do you know all this stuff you’ve come up with? But yeah, I think it yeah, definitely. The meditation, exercise, movements and then challenging that negative chatter and talking back in a more compassionate way, in a more rational way as well.

Le’Nise: So it sounds like you’ve got a lot of tools in your arsenal and you’re very you’re very aware. I want to just go back to what you were saying about sport and you played a lot of sport when you were younger. And you’re very, you do a lot of physical activity now. You’ve talked about we talked a little bit about how your menstrual cycle might impact your performance. Did you notice when you were younger the impact of sport on your period, on your menstrual cycle?

Natalie: No, no, no. I think like I said, to me, my period was very light. It was also maybe three days or four days. It was very, very light. And I never really noticed this PMS that people were talking about. It’s like, I don’t have that.

I brag about that. That’s cool.

 But I think no. And I think, you know, the sport. So I played hockey in high school and I did some running, cross-country and things like that and tennis, but never excessively. I think when I started going to the gym in my 20s, that’s when I started to get quite punishing. Even, I think might be the thing of high impact. Then I qualified to be a fitness instructor, so I taught alongsidea couple of the Virgin Actives and Gymbox and again the ethos and those, you know, it’s very much. Go, go, go. Push, push, push. Which I love. But it’s not something that is sustainable. But I think it was more so it didn’t have an impact on my periods. It was more my mental, ow my mental health in terms of beating myself up because I’m like I’m exhausted and I’m tired and why I’ve done like 10 burpees and that’s it or whatever it might be at that stage, you know, like I’ve just started and you’re dead and not recognising and being in tune and actually listen to your body. And it’s funny, I had a conversation with a friend at the gym once, she was telling me that she was not pushing herself. And then when I asked her where she was in her cycle, I was like, well, that’s why. And it was an eye opener for her as well. You know, we don’t get talked about this if you’re not actively looking for this material.

Le’Nise: Yeah, we don’t get taught about this stuff, and it’s it’s so valuable and so many different ways.

And I think this narrative that I’ve been seeing at the moment is there’s a lot of conversation about the importance of periods. But some people questioning why we need to have a period in the first place. And, you know, it’s it’s hard to kind of have a counterpoint to those conversations because they know that they’re coming from a very masculine mindset of the world in terms of masculine energy and that go, go, go that you described. Whereas we see that menstruation, that cycle is, so it’s a cycle and there are ebbs and flows. But I wanted to just kind of switch gears a little bit and talk a little bit about your you your work as a teacher and the work that how you transitioned into your company, because you’ve mentioned some of the tools that you use around for the anxious thoughts that you have and how you’ve been able to teach children these tools. Talk a little bit about that.

Le’Nise: Mm hmm. So, yeah, I qualified as a teacher. Primary school teacher back in South Africa also got a background in psychology. So I really wanted to go into this field of psychology. So after my teaching degree is four years. And then I thought, well, I’ll come over to the UK. Because that’s what all South Africans were doing back then, which is golly, 2006, I think. But then I ended up staying here and I loved it. So I don’t want to go back. And then I also realised actually I love the mind. 

I love personal development, but I don’t quite know if I want to go into psychology as such. Like I initially thought, but I knew I didn’t want to be a teacher. So I was teaching and I just it just it just didn’t gel. It just wasn’t. I knew, like, inside there’s like there’s something else. And I’m like, well, what the hell is this? Like you would I tried all different things. I mean, like I said, I then dabbled a bit in the fitness industry, cos I loved it. So I trained to be an instructor and I taught like fight club and spin and body pump and all sorts of things. But again, it wasn’t something I could see myself doing long term. And then the school I was with set me on a coaching course thinking initially it was P.E. coaching, physical education. But when I got the documents, it was a taster to become a life coach with some company. And I loved it. And life coach back then, was very woo woo like what is, you know, very kind of like, what is this? But I absolutely loved it. It covered the field of psychology and personal development. But it was about helping people move forward. And so I was actually in the middle of thinking at that point do I, cos I was exploring becoming a personal trainer. But then the coaching qualification came up and was like, I’m actually gonna do that. So I signed up with The Coaching Academy and I did that. And then I thought, well, I mean, I was still teaching full time, obviously. And I thought, well, let me work with women making career changes like myself. So I tried that out for a couple of years on the side. But again, it just didn’t gel. And people used to tell me, why don’t you use your tools for children. But at that point I was like, no, I want to leave education? I’m so tired of this. I want to leave school. And it was only purely by fluke where I had to I was required to teach an after school club. And I thought, well, I’ll call it mindfulness because I’ve been on a mindfulness training session, but I’m going to get the kids to colour. So I can mark books. That was honestly my strategy and I did it for maybe about two sessions. But then one of the children said to me that they were really stressed about their year six exams coming up. And I’d actually come off a stress training day that I absolutely love. So, I mean, on the spot there I was teaching them about their brain and what happens when you get stressed, much like, are they going to get this? And the feedback I got from parents was following that session was like, whatever you’re doing, please carry on. My daughter’s coming home saying, like, she’s using these tools to help with her worries. What is this? Can you carry on with it? So then I slowly started to try different strategies, like basically apply my coaching tools into lessons for children. And that ultimately was when I guess how I thought the idea for Power Thoughts came. So Power Thoughts is a coaching programme that I or coaching service that I created to help children initially tap into the power of their thoughts and to help them recognise that they don’t have to believe every thought they think or respond to everything they feel. And ultimately giving them the tools to manage their mindset.

So I know we were close with a very dear friend, Lucy Sheridan, because Lucy’s always been on my radar. We’ve been friends and I knew she was doing this mentoring at the stage and I said to her I have got this idea to bring personal development to children. But I need help. And that’s really, where we started to put ideas together and, you know, the name came about. So, I mean, it’s been quite a journey and it really is. And it’s so funny because I remember years ago prior to this, I used to say I love teaching, but I want to teach what I’m passionate about and I’m doing it, like it’s so, I’ve got goosebumps. I never would have believed that I would be doing what I’m doing. But for me, it’s really important. I think, you know, as an adult, I know how I struggle with negative thoughts and feelings of anxiety. And I know not everybody does. But we all have self doubts. We all have those times when we question our abilities. We all have those impostors that creep up or we don’t feel confident. But we create all these negative stories about that. And these are stories that we’ve held on to for years, whereas if we could start to teach children from the age of six, seven, eight, that just because you’re not getting maths or it’s difficult in maths doesn’t mean you’re rubbish with numbers, doesn’t mean you’re stupid. You know, you can start to rewrite that story. So it’s all about bringing the tools that we practically use with adults, but making them into bite sized teachable activities for children, Just to start developing positive habits, as I say, you know, from a younger age, or more helpful thinking habits, really. And how to respond to things just being more emotionally aware, because I don’t think I was taught about emotions the way I know about it now. And I know how vital it would have been if I was. 

Le’Nise: Do you feel like kids are more anxious these days? And you’re having to really dig into that a bit more rather than the kind of positive reinforcement side of what you do?

Natalie: Mm hmm. I think. Well, I. I mean, obviously with COVID and all of that. Yes. There’s been a high like a spike in anxiety. This there’s been a lot of because of all the uncertainty, of course. But I mean, prior to that, I do think. 

There is a lot already on children’s plates now versus when I was a child, even when I was teaching. When I first started teaching, you know, the curriculum has changed. It’s definitely I mean, I’ve been out of teaching now for three and a half, four years. But back then, like the curriculum, it changed a lot and it was more challenging. So I think their plates are a lot more full and also bring in online and social media. And it’s not something that we can choose our children not to be engaged in because actually they need to learn. That’s part of the modern world. And we want to give them the skills to deal with that in a positive way so their plates are full. So I think, yes, to a degree there is. But then also the flip side, I think we’re talking about it a lot more now, whereas in the past it was probably also there, we just didn’t talk about it just like we didn’t talk about periods, we didn’t talk about mental health. We didn’t talk about our feelings, we were told to just like, suck it up and get on with it. You know, like just just let’s not show it was not the right thing to show mental, you know, like mental challenges or things like that. So I think it’s a bit of both now and especially I find I mean, just within the world of education, I set up Power Thoughts when mindfulness was just starting to make its appearance in education. But I know it was some schools embraced it and some schools were completely no, we don’t want to go down this route because they might be religious schools. And this is going to attached into all sorts of other beliefs. So it was definitely, I think. I can sometimes find it was a bit slower to be introduced versus say, I know mindfulness was raiding the corporate sector. It was quite well embraced. So I think. Sorry. Going back to your question, I think it’s a bit of both really. Their plates are full. But I think we’re talking about it more. We’re allowing the space to talk about it.

Le’Nise: If there were parents listening, who would say I I love I love this. What’s something I could do today, too. Because, you know, more parents, including myself, are homeschooling. And they’re seeing kind of the kitchen sink of what it’s like to to teach a child. You know warts and all. I have to say here, there have been tantrums from me and from my son. What advice would you give to parents who know there are a lot of kids who aren’t going to go back to school this year to manage this time and to, you know, keep keep a cool head.

Natalie: Yeah, definitely. I think, first of all and it goes back to what I said ages ago, in another interview. This is not home schooling. Right. Home schooling is where you choose to take a child out of the system and you choose to be their primary. I mean, you already own a primary education, but you choose to step into that teacher role. You’ve not chosen this. This is kind of being thrown at you in a matter of like 48 hours. Right? You’ve just got to deal with it. So understand that it’s not you’re not being the teacher. You’re not expected to know how to do the divisions the fractions, adverbial whatever frontal verbs, whatever they’re called, you know, remove that. I mean, by now as I’m talking to parents, there does seem to be a bit of a structure in place because I do think, you know, structure is important. Absolutely. For children, especially let children know what’s to be expected. So but keep it keep it quite simple. I think the key word here is keep it simple. If schools and again, this depends on the age of the child, the subject, what schools are sending, if schools are sending a lot of things and you’re feeling overwhelmed, pick one thing, pick one thing and focus on that. Rather do one thing well versus ten little things. And they’re all emotional meltdowns.

At the end of the day, we’ve always got to come back to our children feeling and us lowering that stress response right where we are. Because if we’re in that space of stress and anxiety and anger and those big feelings, nothing’s going to get done. And it’s not a very nice place to be. So if your child is, and it’s not about this, that’s a lot of things here because, yes, some learning needs to be done. But could there be other forms of learning then if they’re really not engaging with the maths, could they perhaps go? And I don’t know, sort blocks. So by, you know, buy groceries and putting that inverted commas, you know? So what would you buy? How much would it be? What money? Kind of those sort of things. Somethings that give it more practical and hands-on versus the worksheets or the exercise that they do. The other thing is, well, I mean, just to remind parents is what is that children at school for six hours a day, but they are not learning every single minute of those six hours. And even if they’ve got an hour of literacy at an hour of maths, they’re not working that full 60 minutes because there is a bit of teaching time, there is a bit of carpet time, to desk time, there’s they can go to the toilet time. There’s a lot times that we’re not doing anything, you know. And there’s the banter with the friend. So if you’re able to do a little maths exercise in 15 minutes, 20 minutes, and then they do something that’s a bit more self focussed, that’s fine. They don’t have to be busy for the full 60 minutes. I mean, I do see this with a little client that I worked with recently. His school was quite on top form in terms of Zoom lessons, and I think he was at like Zoom calls from nine o’clock until two o’clock every day. And I mean, he’s eight. But I think children are, I mean, what I’m hearing from children and I think especially now understanding if they’re having a hard time, are there some things that you can take off the agenda? Because the kids I’m talking to are bored with Zoom lessons, the hour sessions and that that looks they say the learning is I mean, but the learning is boring, which you can totally understand because your attention span is only so much for an hour or an especially if it’s the subject. So it’s not quite it’s not something that’s always going to be fun and engaging. It’s maths. So it’s how to write a sentence. So, I mean, obviously a lot more elaborate than that. But, you know, I mean, it it’s there’s only so much I think the novelty of being at home is also worn off. In the beginning, it might have been quite exciting. They are missing their friends, you know, FaceTime can only go so far. And also the school day, they burn off a lot of energy.

So what I would say is, how can you help your child change their state and you as well. So simple things like, I know encourage families to create a power playlist where they put together some songs. And if they start to feel, songs that they like, like upbeat, funky songs, and if they start to feel like in a bit of a funk. Right. We gonna choose a song. We’re gonna dance, we’re gonna shake and gonna move it out to get rid of that energy, you know.

Something else that I teach is move it to lose it, where I move my body in a safe way to lose the big feeling. So it might be that I set my timer on my phone. You’ve got to run as fast as you can for 30 seconds and then we got to go again for 45 seconds and then we gotta go again for 60 seconds, by round four children have been like, oh, what was I so upset about? You know, because it’s it’s the game. And even, you know, if you’re able to take them outside, like burn some of the energy because they’re not burning that much energy. And just in terms of something else as well, that might be something helpful in terms of ongoing is we can start now to help them build their emotional vocabulary, because the richer their emotional vocabulary is, the better they will be able to to express how they feel and recognise how they feel. And I can’t remember where I read it. But I read, you know, first of all, that I read somewhere that, you know, if we’re able to label our feeling, it reduces the intensity of the feeling within the primitive part of the brain, but also children and adults who are able to verbalise how they felt were 40 percent less physically and verbally aggressive than those who had a difficult time, you know, figuring things out. So this is something that’s ongoing, but something that families could do is even print off a feelings chart. Just Google feelings chart and Google print that off and just put that up in the kitchen or communal area and just have, like, little conversation about, you know, when did you where do you went to see? What does jealousy feel like? Where do you notice jealousy your body? If you had to give it a colour, what colour would you give it? You know what might help you if you feel jealous, you know, versus if you feel frustrated or if you feel worried or if you feel disappointed. And obviously the happier emotions as well. But just to start building their emotional vocabulary, because so often children say, I feel happy, sad or mad, but actually there’s a whole wealth of other feelings and even getting the older ones. I do this with some children when I get them to take joy, for example, come up with as many words for joy as you can, you know, and then let’s put them on like a timeline and see lowest intensity to highest intensity. What might it and it’s just it’s just a way to start slowly building that vocabulary as well, because then the more words they have to express how they feel about things and vice versa with you as well. 

Le’Nise: You have given us so many incredible tools. I’m just nodding my head, thinking I got to use this. I’ve got to use that. Just just wonderful. Like the power playlist. Like yesterday, my son really loves The Descendants. And so we we were we had a little karaoke session in the afternoon, and that was really fun. And it was a way of us getting out our energy and like, really just, you know, because singing is so joyful. And also it stimulates the vagus nerve. So that is also connected to good emotional health. So I just I just love I just all love all of that. And for the listeners, all of these, if you’re if you’ve written, trying to write these down, all of this will be in the show notes and the transcription on my website. But, Natalie, I wanted to ask you if you could leave listeners with one thought to take away today from this podcast. What would you want that to be? 

Natalie: And the first thing that came to my mind is don’t believe every thought you think. Especially when it comes to the negative chatter, the self-doubt. And this goes, I think, something we can pass on to our children as well, especially when in terms of the uncertainty and the worry and the anxiety, it is so easy to get caught up in the future tripping and worrying about what might happen. But let’s come back to where we are right now in this moment, whether that is with breathing techniques or changing energy states. And I think as well, coupled with that, you know, being gentle with ourselves and this is something I said that I’m still learning. 

I was having a massive talk with myself upstairs just before I came on. You’ve got to be your own cheerleader. So I know the home schooling, when you come home is incredibly difficult for some parents and children. 

But, you know, at the end of the day, can you. It is a one positive thing that’s come out of the day and again, also just the permission slip to drop all of these things that we feel we should do. Primarily, I think what’s important is you being able to pay the bills, so your job and then the children and you feeling in a happy place. So if that means the schoolwork doesn’t get done the way it would be done. That’s okay. So I think I’ve given you two there not one.

Le’Nise: No, I both are brilliant.

Bothare really important. Where can listeners get in touch with you to find out more about the work that you do and how you help children?

Natalie: Yes, sure. 

 So when my website www.powerthoughts.co.uk. I’m on Instagram a lot. I’m on Instagram the most and Facebook as well. Yes. And if you go to my website, you can pop me a message on there or you can come into my DMs as well.

Le’Nise: Brilliant.

And all of this this will be in the show notes and the transcript. Thank you so much for coming onto the show, Natalie. It’s been it’s been brilliant. I’ll definitely be using the things that you mentioned. 

Natalie: Oh, thank you so much for having me. It’s been so lovely to chat with you. Thank you.

Period Story Podcast, Episode 27: Leanne Young, Your Body Is Whispering To You All The Time, You Just Have To Listen To It

On today’s episode, I am so pleased to share my conversation with Leeanne Young, who bravely discusses her health journey from fibroids to hyperthyroidism and a thyroidectomy to an ice crunching obsession and back to fibroids. Leeanne’s story is really powerful and I really encourage you all to have a listen.

Leeanne shares her matter of fact approach to her first period and how she learned about what was happening to her body. We talked about the classic Judy Blume book, Are You There God, It’s Me, Margaret and Leeanne talked about the impact it had.

We talked about Leeanne’s very early endometriosis diagnosis. After a laparoscopy and medication didn’t work for her, she was given the choice of having a hysterectomy at 25 years old. She opted against this and said this taught her how to really listen to her body and tune into the signals it was giving her.

Leeanne bravely shared how she first discovered she had a 10cm fibroid after a miscarriage. She was led to believe that it would be difficult for her to have more children. Leeanne went on to have a daughter, who is now 12.

Leeanne become unwell again and was diagnosed with hyperthyroidism and eventually went on to have a thyroidectomy. Listen to hear the symptoms that made Leeanne realise that something was wrong.

Fast forward a few years, Leeanne felt that everything was going fine. She had started a new job and life was good. Her periods then started getting so heavy that she became scared to leave the house. Listen to hear how Leeanne was able to persevere and get a diagnosis of increased fibroid growth after everyone kept telling her everything was fine.

Leeanne says that we know our bodies best. Our bodies are whispering to us, giving us signs that we need to listen to and I completely agree!

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LEEANNE’S BIO

Leeanne is a people person and classic obliger that operates with integrity and a sprinkle of sass.

She graduated from the school of hard knocks – and is essentially a grafter and thankfully, it paid off. She’s built a solid career in health and safety, specifically, within the utilities industry – which she’s spent the best part of 14 years in. She was recently promoted to Occupational Health and Wellbeing Manager for Morrison Utility Services – a leading utility service provider in the UK and Ireland.

She’s extremely proud and passionate about her current role as her main responsibility is to cultivate and sustain a culture where people are happy, energised and engaged at work – both physically and emotionally.

She’s spent the last two years delving deeper into health, wellbeing and behaviours that enable people to thrive. As such, she’s helped her employer ‘raise the bar’ in regards to increasing the awareness of health and wellbeing topics, dispelling common myths and reducing the stigma around mental health. They’re now embarking on a ‘step change’ that moves them from promotion (which is now fully embedded) to introducing a holistic approach for the effective management of occupational health and wellbeing.

Outside of work, she is responsible for raising a little queen with her extremely patient husband – he deserves a medal, maybe several. Eva is 12 and is her everything. She has been using some of her learnings to help her daughter build resilience through these uncertain times.

Last year she started working with a community organisation called Bro&co – which through food technology, science and mentoring, provides education and leadership opportunities to young boys of colour. She’s very excited about this work and for the forthcoming Sis&co. 

Leeanne is also dedicated to her faith, and says without it, she’s nothing. While the COVID-19 pandemic has been a challenging time, it has given her the space to pause and reflect; to practice gratitude, be more connected spiritually and think about how she wants to show up in the world in the future.

What’s on the horizon for Leeanne? She plans to study Social Sciences through the Open University later this year and then move onto Psychology. She wants to find out why we do all the weird and wonderful things we do in order to tap into how to really help get the best out of people and enable them (and her), to live their best lives.

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SHOW TRANSCRIPT

Le’Nise [00:00:00] Welcome to the show, Leeanne. 

Leeanne [00:00:01] Thank you for having me. 

Le’Nise [00:00:03] So let’s start off by getting into the question I ask everyone. Tell me the story of your first period. 

Leeanne [00:00:09] Yes. So it was not eventful. I’ve been trying to dig back into the vault going back around 30 years. And I just remember that it was one of those events that, oh, okay, this has happened. I was very matter of fact about it, switched into autopilot, went to the shops, bought some sanitary pads, got home. And then I think I told my mom, I remember her being in the kitchen and I told her. And again, very matter of matter of fact for her. And then I think a few hours later, I remember my dad almost saying to me, “oh, so your mother has told me about your, um, you’ve started your menstrual cycle”, a very formal. And I just felt I just felt like I wanted to die. And he said to me, “Right, Leeanne. So you’ve got to keep your room tidy now and shower every day.” And literally, that was it. That was the extent of my first period. 

Le’Nise [00:01:15] How old were you? 

Leeanne [00:01:16] I think I was 12 or 13 years old when I first started. So, yeah. 

Le’Nise [00:01:22] You said you were very matter of fact about it. 

Leeanne [00:01:24] Yeah. 

Le’Nise [00:01:25] Well, you went to the shops on your own. How did you know what to get? 

Leeanne [00:01:31] I think it was just through ads on TV. I knew that. I remember actually looking in the chemist at tampons and I thought, well, can’t do that. Don’t really know how any of that works. So I’ll just buy sanitary pads, that’s safe. That’s easy. And that’s what I did. 

Le’Nise [00:01:51] And then you have the conversation with your parents separately. And how did you learn more about what was happening to your body? 

Leeanne [00:02:03]  I didn’t learn anything about periods via my parents. I learnt all about it at school and in magazines. And I think Judy Blume was quite significant in my life and taught me everything that I needed to know about relationships, boys, periods, etc.. So that was it. I know, obviously, you know, the standard class that you have in high school when the teacher stands in front of 30 kids or an assembly and says this is what happens to girls. This is what happens to boys. That’s it. I actually remember being in an assembly and we were talking about periods. It was actually quite bizarre. And this boy said, “Miss, my mum said that she bleeds a bucket load. Is that true?” And it was that was the point where I learnt that actually you don’t bleed a bucket load. I remember her that saying that a woman bleeds probably half a, the entire time of that period sorry, can fill up like half a teacup of blood. And I thought, oh okay, I could deal with that. That was it, that was all I learnt at school. The rest was with my peers. 

Le’Nise [00:03:28] Go back to Judy Blume. Yeah. What was your favourite Judy Blume book?

Leeanne [00:03:33] Are You There God, It’s Me, Margaret

Le’Nise [00:03:35] Oh, that is my favourite too. 

Leeanne [00:03:39] She was quite significant in my upbringing and amongst, you know, my my friends at the time. We read to all, you know, all the naughty bits and the things that you can’t talk to your parents about. And it was it was really quite nice, isn’t it? And it’s nice to talk to your friends about things like that. And you all are sharing the same experience, aren’t you? All the same time and. Yeah. It was very systematic. No issue, no trauma. That was it.

Le’Nise [00:04:06] When you think back now to the conversations you’re having with your peers. Do you think about things that you said and think, wow, that was totally wrong? Or did you feel like you generally got it right? 

Leeanne [00:04:20] I think that I generally got it right, actually. And it was when I think back now to my childhood, I, I think back very fondly because I, I sound really old saying this, but life was a lot simpler back then. I’m only 41, but actually it was. And we spent so much time with each other and outside away from our parents. And I remember I went to a friend’s house and I used to live in Bristol when I was quite young and we were going to go swimming in Henley’s Lake. And I said, “oh, I can’t go swimming because I’m on my period.” And my friend’s sister said, “oh but Leeanne, you can go swimming.: And I went, “how can I do that? My pad’s going to get soggy or something” and it’s ridiculous, isn’t it? But she said, “oh, no, if you tried these.” And I was like, “no, I’ve never tried it.” It was a tampon. And she said, “look, this is what you do.” And she she was the older sister. Right. And she showed me the tampon and she said, “this is what you do. Blah, blah, blah. And it will be fine. And we can all go swimming and it’ll be great.” So I was like, okay. And I remember feeling really nervous and thinking, oh, God, I’ve got to get this right. But then also I can go swimming. So I went to the bathroom, tried to figure it out, clearly did it wrong because I could feel it. Yeah. And I went I went swimming in the lake and I daren’t cough or anything, just in case the damn thing popped out. But, you know, it plugged me plugging it for a while and. And everything was okay. And then after that point, that’s when I started to use tampons a little bit more because I wasn’t scared of them. Somebody had introduced them to me and I thought, okay, here’s another option. So over the years, I just started to, I suppose, build my confidence in terms of what’s out there and what, you know, could suit me, how I could continue to live the life that I was living. Whilst I’m on my period. 

Le’Nise [00:06:23] So, yeah, to you, that was a real turning point for you, that that moment with your friend’s sister. And then as you as you got older, did your relationship with your period change?

Leeanne [00:06:39] Yes and no. So like I said, it was never really a huge deal for me when I was younger because the environment was very supportive, as I said with my friends. I felt that I was part of a club. Everyone was going through the same thing. It was fine. Things started to change for me when I got diagnosed with endometriosis. I was 21 years old when that happened. And prior to the diagnosis, I thought, oh, this what is this tummy cramp? And I thought, well, as it’s down there, it must all be related to obviously my my, um, my reproductive system and periods and whatever. And that’s when I started to resent, I suppose, having to go through all of this, you know, being a woman, you know, what’s all this about? And then, you know, from dealing with excruciating pain and not understanding what that was to then quickly being diagnosed with endometriosis, to then being provided with options, which obviously at first was medication, just to see, you know, what happened with the meds, which was a variation of the contraceptive pill. And then that didn’t work. It didn’t work for me because I was very aware of how my how I was. I was acting differently, though the hormonal changes changed me as a person. I didn’t like it. 

[00:08:14] I felt like I wasn’t in control of me. So I said, no, I can’t get on with that. And so then to go from that to. Okay, well, a hysterectomy and I thought, hang on a minute, I’m 21. I was quite, um, quite pleased through my upbringing actually that there were certain things that I just think, well, hang on a minute. No, that’s not quite right. I don’t agree with that. So I did feel like what was happening to me at the time was awful. I hated it and I blamed it on, you know, being a woman. Why? Why me? It was definitely why me. I don’t want to have to deal with this. So that’s when things changed for me. But then when I got the endometriosis more under control, I didn’t have a hysterectomy. What I actually did was I started to that’s when I started to really listen to my body and try to tune in to the signals that it was giving me. And so what I did was I controlled my endometriosis. And I’m not saying that, you know, everybody else can do this through a more holistic approach. Breathing techniques, yeah, to breathe through the pain. That’s what I did. And that’s what worked for me. And so the endometriosis didn’t go away. It’s still there. However, I’ve managed it. I managed it. 

Le’Nise [00:09:45] I want to go back to your original diagnosis. So you were 21 and you said that you were diagnosed quite quickly. Yeah. You quite lucky, I have to say, because it it takes an average of between 7 – 10 years to get endometriosis diagnosis. Yeah. 

Leeanne [00:10:04] Wow. 

Le’Nise [00:10:05] But what I find quite interesting and actually very shocking is that at 21, the doctors are saying that you needed to have a hysterectomy. 

Leeanne [00:10:13] Yeah. Yes, that’s right. Yeah. And I had. Oh, no, it wasn’t at 21. Sorry. But that’s when I got diagnosed. And then, when did I get married? I got married when I was 25. So actually from diagnosis through to having a laparoscopy through to the, you know, the hormone treatments or whatever. So that will happened over a period of five years. And then because nothing was getting any better really. They said, well look here, here, here are your options. And I said, well, I’m just gonna keep going as I am then, because I’m not going to have. I’m not going to have a hysterectomy at such a young age. And it was between the age of 21 – 25. 

Le’Nise [00:11:05]  That is I find that really shocking that that they would suggest that, because what I see a lot is that doctors typically want to preserve fertility and then it’s more when women are in their mid forties and beyond that they start suggesting hysterectomies for conditions like endometriosis, adenomyosis,  fibroids. And then it becomes a conversation about, well, you’ve already had your children or you’re past childbearing age. So you don’t need your these organs anymore, which we know is completely wrong. So it’s yeah, it’s very it’s very interesting that you have that conversation quite early. 

[00:11:54] I want to talk a little bit about the techniques that you use to manage your endometriosis, because it is something that I certainly talk about it with my clients a lot. 

[00:12:05] The idea that you’re you can you can reduce the pain, control the pain through breathing, but through different nutrition and lifestyles techniques. How did was it a case of trial and error for you to find the breathing techniques that worked for you? 

Leeanne [00:12:24] Yes, it was. I laugh because when when I got the pain and it is excruciating pain which stops you dead in your tracks and you just can’t do anything. 

[00:12:39] Your body tenses up everything, tenses and you and you’re just, you know, like a solid brick. And I just thought, well, I’ve seen on on TV, I you know, I’ve seen women give birth and they are doing they are breathing and they are breathing, doing the, you know, that kind of breathing. So I just thought, well, if if a woman is able to give birth and use this breathing technique and she’s obviously suffering, suffering with a lot of pain, then how about I try that? And that’s what I start I, I started doing. So I would I I’m just trying to think now whether I get any kind of initial signs, I think I kind of know when something’s going to happen. And as the pain sort of hits me, I then just start that and, and then get slower and slower and slower until it eases and it goes. And I try as much as possible to not tense, to keep my body tense. I tried to just let it go and just almost work through it. Yeah. 

Le’Nise [00:13:50] There’s so much so many interesting things in what you’ve just said there. So firstly about breathing, we know that if we think about a practise like yoga, where breathing so the pranayama is a core part of the practise. And what we know is that when you regulate your breathing, so your the the inhale and exhale that can shift your nervous system and calm down so many different areas. So mentally but also physically. The other the other thing you mentioned, which I see a lot with my clients with endometriosis, is the tensing. Yeah. And you see that they often physiotherapy is really powerful for women with with endo because of that, that tensing and the that the effect that that has on the pelvis, but also on a biological level, because when you’re tensing, your body is using a lot of calcium. But then when you relax, you start to use more magnesium. All right. So that tensin, that process of magnesium and calcium doesn’t happen in the body. So what you’re saying is just it’s your, it aligns with so many other conversations I’ve had. 

Leeanne [00:15:12] Oh, thank God. 

Leeanne [00:15:14] Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s very common with with women endometriosis. They they tense alot, but you then might introduce something like magnesium and other and some physiotherapy techniques that help unwind the body a little. You can make a massive difference. 

Leeanne [00:15:36] Yeah. Yeah I’m sure. I’m sure it. I’m sure it can. Yeah. Pretty sure it can. 

Le’Nise [00:15:41] So you got you got your diagnosis and then you use these various techniques to manage the pain and then. And then what happened next. 

Leeanne [00:15:51] Right. So I got married and me and my husband lived in a lovely little marriage bubble for four years, which was great. And then we decided that we wanted to have a baby. So we fell pregnant. I fell pregnant very, very quickly after we started trying. And again, that was fantastic news. 

[00:16:16] We were in a really lovely, happy bubble. But then I suffered a miscarriage. I woke up one morning and I just knew something wasn’t wasn’t right because I had a blood in my, um. In my underwear. Yeah. We went to the to the hospital and that’s when they told us that we’d lost the baby. And so that was obviously a really awful time. I remember that when they did the internal scan, they said that I had a 10 centimetre fibroid in my way and I was shocked, didn’t know anything about fibroids. 

[00:16:55] And they said that that was what had caused the miscarriage. So I we said, okay, well, what do we do? What do we do now? And the I remember, this is quite a number of years ago, I remember the doctors saying, well, we have to, I don’t know, do some kind of investigation or or something. And we said, well, does this mean that we can’t have. Is it going to be difficult to have children, more children? And obviously, the stock answer, well, we don’t know. But it may inhibit or reduce the chances of a viable pregnancy. But anyway, I think I don’t know what happened. Me and my husband just decided to just crack on and fell pregnant again. 

[00:17:43] And we had a viable pregnancy because I now how we have Eva. But I do remember again, having, well not again, but I had a very significant bleed quite early into the pregnancy and I thought again that I’d lost the baby I’d lost Eva. But luckily I hadn’t. And and we now have a beautiful twelve year old daughter. So yeah. So what happened with that, with that fibroid. I don’t know, but I’m sure we’ll get back, come on to that in a minute. 

Le’Nise [00:18:20] So what’s interesting about what you said is that a lot of women get told who have fibroids is that they won’t be able to have children. And you, unfortunately, had a miscarriage due to the fibroid. But then you had a viable pregnancy. So it’s really interesting because they you can have different outcomes with fibroids. Talk a little bit more about what happened with your fibroids after you you gave birth. 

Leeanne [00:18:53] So at that at that time, I, I gave birth to Eva and then I forgot about it. I didn’t do I didn’t consider it because I had my baby. I won’t go into it. But quite frankly, I don’t think it was the fibroid that was the issue. I think it was something else. 

Le’Nise [00:19:12] OK. 

Leeanne [00:19:13] And anyway, no, I won’t go into that because it would make me very angry. But I don’t I don’t think it was the it was the fibroid. So I left it. I left it for years and years and years continues just to live my life. But then I, I got unwell again. And this time it was my thyroid. So I was diagnosed with hyperthyroidism. 

[00:19:39] And my options at the time was to have oh, I can’t remember it now, but a radioactive ingredient that goes in that you ingest or to have the thyroid gland removed. So I was really suffering with the hyperthyroidism. For a number of years, I didn’t know at the time that why I was, you know, the symptoms I had and didn’t realise they were related. So it was, you know, extreme sweating, mood changes again, really quite extreme, you know, loss of memory, just erratic sort of behaviours. I was eating like a rugby player, but I was losing significant amounts of weight. I was never putting any weight on. It was it was quite ridiculous, actually, when I think back on it. But the worst thing was how it affected me emotionally. My mental health, I was really struggling at that time. And so, again, presented with an option to have the thyroid gland removed. 

[00:20:48] And because the years before that were so hard with me and my husband, we thought that this was the best option for me. I had the surgery, but again, prior to that, they try a load of medication and whatever I did all of that, nothing worked for me. So I had a total thyroidectomy. Surgery went a bit Pete Tong. I had to I went in to had to be put into. Well, actually, the surgery didn’t go wrong. It was the after bit. Luckily, I was put straight into intensive care. That’s what my surgeon does routinely for all her patients after a thyroidectomy, I essentially started suffocating when they took out all the breathing apparatus. And so they had to intubate me and I was in an induced coma for four, five days. And and then obviously I came round and then dealt with after that sort of coming coming to terms with all of that and what happened, potential loss of life. I mean, my husband and my daughter went through maybe two, three years of trying to get our heads around all of that. And that’s when I realised, because then afterwards I was told that my parathyroid glands were damaged. So not only did I have to start taking thyroxine, I have I had to start taking a calcium replacement as well. 

[00:22:19] And this is something that I have to do now for the rest of my life. And in terms of the the thyroids as well, it is very, very difficult. It is a long journey to get the balance right. To get the balance of thyroxine right. And I, you know, just completely exhausted by it. And again, that whole. Why me sick of this? You know, this is horrendous. So I forgot about everything else that was going on in my life because I had to focus on that because that was the biggest thing that was happening. I didn’t know what was happening with my periods. Really, I tuned out of that because actually up to that point, I was every 28 days, you know, regular as clockwork. No issue, really. And then I started to notice that my periods were getting really quite heavy, really heavy. But then I thought, well, this must just come with age. This is what happens. And then I started to pin everything on my thyroid issue, my hormones. And I thought, okay, this is maybe just something else. It’s related to that I’ll have to deal with. I’ll just crack on. So if we fast forward a couple of years. So let’s go to 2016. 

[00:23:35] Yeah. I started a new job. This is about four years after my total thyroidectomy. Everything was going fine. After a year into that job. My periods were so heavy that I couldn’t. I was scared to leave the house for fear of driving. I’d live. I live in in West London, but I work in Hertfordshire. It’s a 50 minute drive from my house to the office. And in that time period, I would have filled up a maxi pad and also a super plus tampon in that 50 minute period. And it got to the point where I was so scared that I would get to work, get to the car park and I would have come through, that I would just have to turn around and go home. So really, there was no point in me going into the office when I was on my period. 

[00:24:37] And that’s when things started to change for me, because I thought, well, hang on. This is starting to affect my my life. This is starting to affect my work. I can’t. I can. How can I phone up my director and say I can’t come into the office because I’m on my period? It sounds utterly ridiculous, but it’s the truth. So I had to suck it up. I had to deal with it. I had to do. I dealt well, I didn’t have to, but I dealt with the accidents, you know, the embarrassment, the. This is this just what what’s happening to me right now. 

[00:25:11] And then I started to notice other things. I started to notice a change in my eyesight. I’d be driving and the right side of my eye was which I would almost lose a bit of my peripheral vision, which starts to frighten me. I started to notice that I was extremely tired. I’d go to sleep. I’d wake up and it wouldn’t would I feel like I hadn’t actually slept. And I thought, what the hell? What’s going on? Didn’t connect the dots at the time. Just thought, oh, Leeanne, you know, you’re a mess, but just keep going. Right. So I kept going until I just thought, no, this is probably dangerous. Now, me, me driving, don’t know what’s going on. I started yoga and was loving it. Bikram yoga. Absolutely fantastic for the mind and the body. And then I started to feel really faint in my yoga, in the yoga classes every so I just saw what’s going on. Is it because it’s too hot? But hang on. I’ve been doing this for a while now, but literally feeling like I was just gonna pass out. So I stopped. I stopped going to yoga. I went to the GP. They sent me to I went to the GP, went to the opticians. And obviously everything. Nothing came back sort of conclusive. You know, you’re fine. Everything is okay. But then so I thought, okay, fine. Kept going. Kept going. Things were getting worse. It was worse. I started to speak to my sister when I whenever I speak to my sister in a sign she said, “Leeanne, are you running or something?” 

[00:26:51] I said, no. She said, “Why are you so short of breath?” And I said, “Really? I said, No, I’m not doing anything. I’m just walking around the house.” So shortness of breath, extreme fatigue, loss of memory, not able to concentrate. You know, I could list all these things. Classic signs of anaemia. 

[00:27:13] So I went to the doctor again and had another blood test. I was used to these because of my thyroid condition. And the doctor said to me, “wow, Leeanne, your iron and your haemoglobin and ferritin levels are so low. I actually need to admit you to hospital, like, right now.” So I said, “what, what? What the hell? What what’s all this about? What’s going on? Why?” And she said, “well, tell me about your periods.” I said, “well, you know, they’re really heavy and blah, blah, blah.” And she’s like, “right, okay. Well, I think we need to do some investigation work to find out what’s going on, because it sounds like your periods are too heavy.” So  I thought at that point I’m gonna go via private healthcare. Yeah. Because I’m so privileged that I have this facility. So I thought, okay, look, let’s let’s go down that route and and see what happens, what comes of that. So I saw a gynaecologist and had a scan and the gynaecologist said to me, “oh, you’re presenting four months pregnant. You have about six or seven fibroids in there all the size of a small tangerine. This is what’s causing your heavy periods.” When she said to me, “what are your periods like” and I said, “well, I use a super plus tampon and a pad and I have to change that every hour.” 

[00:28:45] And she went, “Whoa.” And I said, “Is that not normal?” She said, “No.” it sounds ridiculous. Well, I didn’t know. I thought that was normal. I thought that’s what we had to go through. 

Le’Nise [00:29:01] But it’s interesting because at the beginning of the conversation, you said that you remember this lesson from school where they talked about 1/2 a teacup. So what you thought was normal changed for you. 

Leeanne [00:29:17] Yeah. 

Le’Nise [00:29:18] Based on everything you had been going through. 

Leeanne [00:29:20] Yes. Yes. So I pinned it on the experiences over the last five, six years. Right. So I thought, well, it must be that I’m getting older. I’ve had, you know, thyroid surgery. I’m taking a load of hormone tablets. So I think tablets are affecting my hormones. It must be these things that’s causing, you know, the heavy the heavy periods. You’re absolutely right. I don’t know why I didn’t even think about that. So. So, yeah. So that happened. This was just last year. All of this happened. So the first thing was to have an iron infusion. Yeah, to to actually help me feel better sort of immediately. And then my gynaecologist suggested I should have a Mirena coil fitted. So I had the Mirena, the Mirena coil fitted in November last year. Yeah. 

Le’Nise [00:30:19] And what did, the iron infusion I mean, just to give a kind of clinical perspective, to have an iron infusion. You have to have a ferritin level of, I think it’s of below something like eight. 

Leeanne [00:30:35] Yeah, yeah. 

Le’Nise [00:30:37]  I can just imagine how you were feeling at the time. The heavy bleeding, the the extreme fatigue. And I see that a lot with with clients with fibroids. That iron infusion, how did you how did you feel afterwards? 

Leeanne [00:30:57] So the haemotologist said to me, he was a great, great guy. I’ve actually met a load of really great doctors and nurses throughout this this crazy process. I’ve been through a crazy journey, should I say. He explained to me that I would feel I would start to feel different after, you know, two, three weeks, because essentially I was I’d be making new blood. So that would then be oxygenised. I don’t even know if that’s a word, in my body I would just start to feel the benefits then. One of the things that I noticed so I have suffered from anaemia throughout my my life, I suppose, since I started my periods. 

[00:31:49] And it’s always been up and down. Yeah. And I have been going to GPs and saying, “oh, I’m feeling tired.” Not as bad as as, you know, what I’ve experienced recently. Really tired. Oh yeah. Yeah. You you have anaemia. You need to take some iron tablets. And I keep on, I kept on saying to them, these iron tablets really aren’t agreeing with me. 

[00:32:12] I am getting really bad cramping pains in my stomach. I feel nauseous. It’s just awful. Is that no alternative? No. Here’s another alternative to an iron tablet. Okay, fine. I’ll take them off you, but I won’t take them. Yeah. 

[00:32:34] So I tried to introduce iron rich foods into my diet. However, you know, those will only take you so far. Yeah. For me again, in that whole time I used to crunch ice. I used to eat ice. Yeah. All the time. And it annoyed my entire family. Right. And I thought what I do when I want it just felt like the most normal thing for me to do. I’d, you know, go into the freezer, get a load of blocks of ice, sit down and just go on eating all this ice. Right. And the most significant change that happened to me after that iron infusion was I stopped eating ice. I can’t even begin to explain to you how huge this is in my life. Right. Whenever you see Leeanne in ber comfort, you know, in her comfortable space, you see Leeanne with a glass of ice. Right. The ice went. I didn’t know that was a symptom. It’s one of the symptoms of of anaemia. Right. One of the weird and wonderful symptoms. That was the biggest thing that I noticed and stopped eating ice. 

Leeanne [00:33:47] And then slowly but surely, I started to get some energy back, which is quite remarkable. I was able to go for walk to the park with my daughter. Without me, you know, feeling like I was going to pass out. So, yeah, it was quite significant, significant change. 

Le’Nise [00:34:04] So this symptom that you mentioned, it’s something called pica, where you want to eat things that are non food related because your body is just has this intense need for this for whatever the mineral is. In this case, it’s iron. So it’s interesting. I don’t see that a lot. But that’s very interesting that you had that. So you had the infusion and this is all last year. Yes. And then what did they say to about the six or seven tangerine sized fibroids? And I just actually, for listeners who don’t know what fibroids are, they are non-cancerous growths that can be in the uterus, within the muscular lining of the uterus or outside of the uterus. And they can be as small as a cherry and they can be as big as a watermelon. So for you, what what was the next step with addressing the fibroids? 

Leeanne [00:35:04] So the next step with well, the next step was addressing the bleeding. So that’s why we opted to go to have the Mirena coil fitted. So the gynaecologist were recommended having that procedure first and actually seeing if it would stop the bleeding because or reduce it significantly, because obviously then that’s what was causing the anaemia, which then was why I was getting tired of blah, blah, blah. The fibroids have never caused me any pain. So my main issue was the heavy bleeding. So that’s what we thought we’d treat. So we have that. I had that done in November. In so I have the Mirena coil fitted, she said. The gynaecologist also said that if she could, whilst she was fitting the coil, she would also try to remove any fibroids that were in the cavity of the womb. Yeah. And I thought, brilliant. Yeah. Double whammy. Excellent. Let’s go with that. Came round after the surgery and she said we couldn’t. None of them were in the cavity. It was just too difficult. They’re all in the lining, as you said. Subserosal, submucosal. Yeah. It couldn’t be got got to in that way anyway. So she said, let’s just see how you go. And we’ll just keep an eye on it. So I did just that immediately after the surgery. They give you medication, transexamic acid. I was taking to stop you from bleeding too much so that you don’t so that the body doesn’t distort the shape, you know, the the embedding of the of the coil. I stopped taking that in at the start of this year and I thought that everything was OK. I thought, okay, I can deal with this level of bleeding. It was every day. But I knew that there was a certain period that I had to go through whilst the coil embedded in my body. So I went to see the gynaecologist in February this year and I said, “look, everything seems okay. So far, so good.” She said, “Great, fine. Off you go. We’ll just continue to monitor.” And then what I noticed was at the end of April. I. So I was bleeding every single day. Yeah, every single day. Not really heavy, but every single day. But I thought that’s okay. But this is what’s supposed to happen for about six months. Or it could could happen for about six months. 

[00:37:54] This is what I was told. 

Le’Nise [00:37:56] You were told that you would have daily bleeding for 6 months. 

Leeanne [00:37:59] Yes. So I thought, okay, that’s that’s fine. I’ll I’ll keep going with that. But then towards the end of April, the bleeding got really, really heavy. And I don’t want to put anybody off their meals if they’re having meals at this time. But I started to pass blood clots the size of my palm. 

[00:38:20] And I started to get really scared because I thought, I don’t know if this is if this is if this is meant to happen. And the bleeding wouldn’t stop. And it was like I was a leaking tap, but a very quick leak. So this was nothing like I’d ever experienced before. And all that I kept on thinking was, you know what, thank God we’re in lockdown and I’m forced to stay at home, because that would be absolutely no way in the world that I could go to work or do anything right now. 

[00:38:54] I called the hospital. Obviously, we’re in lockdown. I did not want to go into hospital, but I had to call them. And I said, this bleeding is really bad. It’s not stopping, I’m passing these clots. I don’t know what to do. They said call, they said call, you might be better off contacting,the you know, your gynaecologist, the person that fitted the coil, whatever. I obviously explained all the history, contacted the gynaecologist. And I said, look, I just want to know if this is to be expected or if if something has gone wrong here. So she arranged for me to have some and some scans, internal scans. I went and had the scans and the fibroids had changed. They had grown more. And I looked at the lady that did the scan and though she had a mask on her face, I could tell that she thought, well, I really don’t think anything’s worked here. Don’t think you’re going to stop bleeding. And I thought, oh, for goodness sake, you know. I was really upset. 

Le’Nise [00:40:00] Yeah. 

Leeanne [00:40:01] So I then had a follow up with my gynaecologist. And then was presented with some options. She confirmed that my fibroids had changed. They’ve grown even more. I now developed polyps in my womb. And so she said, we can do a hysterectomy, again. A myomectomy. And she also mentioned to me, taking an injection that would reduce the fibroids. So these injections every once once a month for I think a period of three months, something like that. However, they would bring about menopausal symptoms. So I thought, I don’t want to do that because, you know, my history now, I can’t be dealing with any of that. So the decision was between the myomectomy and the hysterectomy. And because everything was just horrendous, I at the time we discussed I discussed it with my husband and said, “I’m done with this. I want this over. I don’t want to deal with any more issues to do with periods, fibroids, further surgery.” If I opted for the might for the myomectomy, they would remove the fibroids, but then they might grow back. So there might be more surgery that follows. And I thought, I can’t be doing with that. I’ve done enough. So I said, I want it over. I’ll go for the hysterectomy. As soon as she wrote that down, I knew that actually maybe no. But she wrote it down. I left the hospital. Me and my husband spoke aloud at everything to settle. And I think I just needed a bit more time. I started to think about my options. Is this really what I want to do? And luckily, you came into my life and you suggested something that I’d never heard of, which was the UFE, uterine fibroids embolisation. I emailed my consultant and I said, is this an option for me? We discussed it. She said that it could be, however, because I have multiple fibroids. I might not be the ideal candidate for that. So where are we today? 

[00:42:36] I pressed pause on everything. I said to the consultant. I need more time. I actually just want my body to settle because it’s been through a lot. I had another iron infusion. I had that two and a half weeks ago because obviously I know the symptoms now in terms of anaemia. So I knew I mean, you imagine if I’d been bleeding since the start of the year. And then, you know, sort of mid to end April. It was a very, very heavy month. 

[00:43:06] I spoke to my mum. I spoke to my mum. And I said, “Mum, this is what’s happening.” And she said, “oh, yes, I remember, you know, so and so”. One of her friends suffered with fibroids and she would be bleeding like a slain mule. Right. Slain mule. Oh, my God. 

Le’Nise [00:43:25] A graphic image. 

Leeanne [00:43:26] Right. And I’m thinking, oh, my God. But. But. Oh, my God. Yes. That is exactly how I was bleeding. Yeah. No one should have to deal with that. Yeah. Okay. So but then what’s really interesting. So. 

[00:43:42] So at the moment what I will say, is I’ve pressed pause on everything I feel I’m starting to feel much better because I’ve had the iron infusion. And it seems like my body is starting to settle down. Yes. Significantly. Now, I don’t know what’s going to happen in in a month’s time or even in a week’s time, but at the moment, I think I’m okay with where I’m at right now. Having a hysterectomy is a major decision. Even at 41, having any kind of surgery. And and that’s the reason why I don’t. Although I said I want it over. I don’t actually take these things lightly. I’ve had surgery. And now I know when you have significant surgery, you remove a part of your body. It doesn’t just affect that part of the body that it’s being taken from that’s being impacted. It impacts your entire body. Yeah, it impacts your mind as well. And for me, having gone through what I went through with my total thyroidectomy and knowing that these tiny little glands are massive and I wish to God that I knew more about it at that time because I don’t think. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. I don’t think that I would have opted to have that surgery if I knew more about it and the impact it would have on the ongoing impacts they would have on my life. And, well, what I will say as well is when I did go back to my to my GP at one point and I said to her, I asked her, I said, “Look, in terms of anaemia, so do I. Do I have any other options here? What are my options here? You tell me more. Don’t tell me about medication. Is there. Is there anything else? Can I do my own. Can I take my own stuff? I’ve done a load of research and I know that. And I know that everyone keeps on talking about it now. But, you know, sea moss and bladderwrack and dandelion and Burdock and all these things, I said, you know, can I can I take all these things and will they give me what I need?” And she said, “Leeanne, I’ll be honest with you, I don’t know enough about that.” Yeah. She said, “I don’t know enough about it to advise you, on it?” She said, “By all means, yes, do that.” But she said because of the stage that you’re at right now, I can’t recommend that for you. Yeah. You need to have you need to have something now. And I thought, okay, I hear you. 

[00:46:19] But the learning from that is if you allow yourself time, if you tune into what your body’s actually doing, there are alternatives. Yeah, I do. I wholeheartedly believe that there are alternatives. And I think those alternatives need to be explored. 

Le’Nise [00:46:38] What you’ve gone through is is quite a journey. And what’s really interesting is throughout, as you’re describing it there is this what you just described as you just had to get on with it. You kept going. You kept going. What do you think you would say to someone who is going going through something similar? 

Leeanne [00:47:01] I would say talk to talk to as many people as possible. But experts, I think. If talking about it helps because there are things that other people may be going through that you could probably learn from. I wouldn’t have known about the UFE had my best friend not had a conversation with me about a period podcast. And then, you know, your introduction and then you were so brave to come forward and say, but have you considered this. Right. Um, I think that it’s about time, isn’t it, that we had open conversations. I’ve just said to you that I learnt everything that I knew about period through the conversations that I had with my friends in the playground when I was young. Yeah. And reading Judy Blume books. Why is it that that conversation stops as we grow up? 

[00:48:03] Yeah. Why does why do we stop talking about it? Why do we feel shame or embarrassment? We shouldn’t. As soon as I started talking about the coil. Right. Everyone. Well, most people. Oh I have that. Oh, I have that. Oh, is it, really. What was your experience. Yeah. Oh, it changed my life. Oh, there’s this is really awful period that you’d have to go through where everything is embedding. But actually, when you get past that, it changed my life. These are the conversations that people were having with me almost after the event. If I had those conversations prior, I think they probably would have helped. Yeah. I probably would have done a little bit more digging. Would have been more informed. Yeah. Probably would’ve felt a bit more comfortable about what was happening at the time as well. So I think it’s important to have those conversations with people. Yeah. Yeah. 

Le’Nise [00:48:59] What’s one thing that you want to leave listeners with? You so bravely shared your story today. And I know that my listeners will take a lot out of what you’ve shared. What if you kind of had to distil everything that you’ve said into one thing? What would what would you want that to be? 

Leeanne [00:49:19] I think it’s that we know our bodies best. Yeah. And I remember somebody it might have been a yoga teacher saying something about your body is whispering to you all the time. Yeah. And you just have to listen to it. And as wishy washy as that might sound to some people, it’s actually very profound because your body is telling you it’s giving you signals and it’s giving you signs. And what I’ve learnt is and this is the way that I’m trying to have this conversation with my daughter. I’m trying to get her to understand her body, understand it, you know it best. So don’t have people tell you, oh, you, you need to do this or you need to do that. No, you pose some questions. If I do that, what’s the impact? Yeah. What do other people do? What are the alternatives? Is this the only way? Is this the only method? If you know your body and you do your research, you’ll be able to have very informed discussions with experts. And I say that in inverted commas about stuff. Yeah. So I think that’s the one thing that I would I would say to people. 

Le’Nise [00:50:39] You know your body best. I, I think that’s really powerful and that really helps helps women understand that they when they’re going into these situations with healthcare professionals and they feel like they’re being dismissed or diminished that it gives them the impetus to push on. 

[00:51:02] Because if your body is whispering to you. And my yoga teacher said that to me as well. One of my tutors when I was training, your body gives you whispers and you need to listen to the whispers. And that’s where how we’ve gotten to the situation where there’s pain and this bleeding that so many women experience has become normalised. And we need to change that and go back to the idea of listening to your body. But really listening. And really taking those learnings. 

Leeanne [00:51:35] Yeah. Can I tell you one really quick thing? 

Le’Nise [00:51:39] Yeah. 

Leeanne [00:51:39] I remember the first time I had a conversation about periods with a group of older, older women. Yeah, I was with my group book club friends. Yeah. And I don’t know how we got on the topic. We were reading the most horrendous book at the time. I won’t tell you what it was called, because it’s so embarrassing. 

[00:52:02] And I actually brought it to the table. But anyway, it got us talking about periods and what not. And one of my friends said that she lost a tampon cord and she couldn’t bloody, you know, get the tampon out and she had to get a partner to come and find it. And then somebody else spoke about a cup that they used rather than using tampons and stuff. And you know what? We were laughing. We were laughing. We were joking. And we were having very honest conversations about what is the most normal everyday thing. How about we do more of that.

Le’Nise [00:52:40] Thank you so much for coming on the show. I again, thank you for your bravery. Thank you for your honesty. And I really hope that you find the healing that your body needs. So thank you again. 

Leeanne [00:52:53] You are most welcome. Thank you for having me. 

Period Story Podcast, Episode 26: Allysa Rochelle, Hold Space For Yourself

On today’s episode of Period Story podcast, I’m pleased to share the wonderful and very expansive conversation I had with Allysa Rochelle, the Vulnerability Queen and founder of TING. We talked about trauma and its effect on menstrual health, the vulnerability spectrum, why Black women need to embrace softness and of course, Rochelle shared the story of her first period.

Rochelle says that after she got her first period, she kept it secret for 4 months. Eventually, pain become a big part of her period life and she learnt to just get on with it, which she says was part of the negative programming she had around her period quite early on.

Listen to hear about the pivotal moment where Rochelle changed her perspective on the pain she was experiencing and the role trauma played in this.

Rochelle talks about a light bulb moment when she realised that she had been ignoring her needs because she had always been in service to other people. She says that she had to get really still and ask herself: ‘what do you need? what are your needs?’

We had a fascinating discussion about the stereotype of the strong Black woman and how important it is for Black women to embrace softness too and let themselves be vulnerable. 

Finally, we talked about Rochelle’s self-styled title, ‘The Vulnerability Queen’ and how important it is to lean into vulnerability in a very intentional way.

Rochelle says that we need to hold space for ourselves and never ignore what we’re feeling. I completely agree!

Get in touch with Rochelle:

Website: https://tingonline.uk and https://www.allysarochelle.com

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/allysarochelle

Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/AllysaRochelle/

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ROCHELLE’S BIO

Allysa Rochelle is the vulnerability queen, she is a podcaster, and the founder of TING, a social enterprise for young creatives. She combines her experience of significant trauma in her childhood and her love for creativity to curate content that inspires people to begin their own healing process. 

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SHOW TRANSCRIPT

Le’Nise: On today’s episode, we have Allysa Rochelle. Rochelle is the vulnerability queen. She is a podcast and the founder of TING, a social enterprise for young creatives. She combines her experience of significant trauma in her childhood and her love for creativity to curate content that inspires people to begin their own healing process. Welcome to the show.

Rochelle: Hey, how you doing? Yeah. Good.

Le’Nise: Good. Let’s start off by getting into the story of your very first period. Can you share with us what happened? 

Rochelle: Yes, I can. Oh, I just want to kind of like preface before I even start talking and just be like I. My story of my first period. So I am so happy that you asked me to be on this podcast has actually got me thinking about my period. And and I just want to put some trigger warnings in. Now, there’s a lot of stuff that might bring stuff up for other people. Yes. So I just kind of say that before I start. So, my first period, I think I was about year seven, so like 11, 12, that time of age. And I remember being in my lesson and, and being in, like, uncomfortable, but sometimes something’s happening and it’s like a belly ache because obviously as a kid, I’m like, oh, this is a belly ache. And then I remember at some point in the day, going into the toilet and noticing that something was in my pants and it wasn’t red. It was like blood red. It was like, brown, that kind of colour. So I remember being really embarrassed and being like, Oh, my God, have I shit myself type thing, like that’s just the truth? I literally thought that I had, but I’d also be like I definitely haven’t like, I would have know if I did and just not knowing what it was, it was that there was no I had no information as to kind of what was happening into my body.

So, for the next few days, it kept on happening and I just kept on being confused, like watching my knickers at home and hiding them and then just going through that whole process. And that happened. And I said nothing for about I’d say about four months. And then it got to a point when I was like, something keeps happening to me and I’m not I don’t know what it is. And so, like, just kind of I kind of come back to tell me about your first period. When I think about that, I think about how did I, how was I not prepared for that situation? So, yeah. That’s who it was like. It was traumatic. And I suppose it was my first entry. No, it wasn’t my first entry, I was very used to shame by then. But it was like a massive, shameful thing for me because I was unaware of what was happening to my body. I was in a lot of pain and I wasn’t speaking about it at all to anybody. 

Le’Nise: So your friends hadn’t had their periods yet, or it was just that you just weren’t having that conversation with your friends. 

Rochelle: I think if we had spoken about periods at that point, it was like the same way, like kids talk about sex, it’s like nobody knows what they’re talking about. You’re just saying the words trying to sound like an adult. So if somebody had said something about a period, I probably just pretended I knew what was happening. But I think it was. I don’t know. I probably need to dig into this a little bit more or maybe not, but I don’t know why I never correlated the two, like something. Maybe I didn’t realise it was happening monthly. It was just happening randomly. I mean, I you know, I didn’t have enough information to kind of put the pieces together to figure out that it was it was my period. 

Le’Nise: So when did you figure out what was happening? 

Rochelle: I think eventually I am. I told my mom, the mom, myself, my mom didn’t have a good relationship because she is extremely religious and extremely conservative. And eventually I spoke to her. She was just like, that’s your period, why didn’t you tell me? And I was like. I suppose it’s like how how, how, why did I not know that? Well, also, like, how did you not prepare me to know that type things? There’s a whole lot of stuff going on. So eventually when I told her, she kind of basically just gave me some sanitary towels and told me to get on with it. 

And then I didn’t know is. Once I realised what it was, it. I didn’t. I don’t know if the pain got worse, because I remember I was in pain before I knew what it was, but after I knew what it was, the pain became like. I don’t know, a big part of my period life. Like anybody that knows me, knows that Rochelle has very bad periods. I I’m at times unable to walk. Not much now. And, yeah, lying down. Not going to work. How lucky. It stops my life like that. I got to a point in my life where I was like planning for days off, a month of doing nothing because I physically couldn’t move. And I remember like because of her cultural stance and religion, as I am, say like you get on with it. You do what you need to do. You don’t get to be in pain in you’re a woman now type thing. And so there was a lot of negative programming around my period very early on. 

Le’Nise: This idea of just getting on with it. Your mom gave you the sanitary towels, told you just to get on with it, and you took that message even though you were in significant amounts of pain. So four days of pain a month where you plan to do nothing. That’s 48 days a year. I mean, that’s that’s a month and a half of your year being in pain. And, you know, when I talk about pain a lot with my clients and the rest of my work. And being able to put your pain in context like that and say, you know, for 48 days a year, you expect to be in a lot of pain. And the fact that you you have this and you’ve been and you’ve internalised this message of, oh, I just need to get on with it. It says a lot about our culture and how we’ve tried to normalise women’s pain. 

And I want to understand a little bit more about. So you said that things are different now. What have you done to change the pain or change? Your expectations around the pain. 

Rochelle: Good question. I think it’s also I think I have to say this point, you know, it’s a kind of make my next point. So actually, after I started to have my period. I was probably say after like a year or six months, I started to then be sexually abused. And so I think that. And that lasted a very long time. And I think that my. Because I am I have more of a spiritual kind of like lens on life now. I think that the pain I was experiencing probably got a lot worse because of the trauma was experiencing at the same time. Yeah, I probably would. I’d say I’d probably put money on the fact that it did and my body was reacting. And so now I my, my period pains have only been, I would say, bearable, like I’ve been able to. I remember the last time I had to go home, because of my period. It was last year. So that’s that’s quite a long time for me. Just to have that amount of time not be completely like, on bedrest is a really good time. I would say in the last year or so, I’ve been able to do stuff like that I’ve actually planned to do. And I think it’s because I realised how much trauma I had still stored in my body. And I started it’s kind of like pay attention to it and do like exercises and be mindful of the fact that, like adapting to lose your mentality around pain isn’t normal and maybe the pain is a residue off like, somebody said to me once. And I really hope that I can experience in the way that people understand. She said to me, I was on a retreat and this was in 2018 and the retreat was 8:00 in the morning until 6:00 at night. So we had had lunch and we were supposed to come back and do some activities. I came on my period. And I’m a person. I’m not extroverted. I’m not a look at me type person, I was in so much pain. I couldn’t take part in the afternoon activities and they couldn’t move on without me being in the room. And so one of the founders came upstairs and she said, when you experienced. She came up with magnesium, to give me some magnesium, which is like when you experience trauma, especially in that womb space. She says everything in the universe expands and contracts is how we like things move expansion and contraction. 

And the same for your womb. And she said it’s possible that it’s contracted so tightly that it needs to expand for your period, it struggles to do so. 

And it just gave me a different perspective because I had never you, don’t I? I just had never seen my body in that way, or I never. I was still working out how everything was interlinked and everything is connected like everything. And I’m still I’m still understanding that now. It still blows my mind how much one thing can really affect another. And I just had this kind of image of like my womb just being so tightly held together, tightly constricted because of years of trauma in that space. 

And then. All the pain made so much sense then I was like, well, of course, if you if I if I have to be on my period and my body needs to go through this process, and this used to be because I’m actually quite tight, naturally, as a result, I had to hold it up. And so, yeah, I think since 2008, since I had that kind of realisation and I’ve been more mindful about how the body holds trauma. I think my periods have got better. I think I started to eat better, I’ve started to move my body. I think just having an awareness has shifted for me. So. So, yeah, my period are painful 100 percent. But I realise now it would be for four days. I’m I’m day three and I’m still screaming, you know. I mean now I reckon it’s probably like one day of extreme pain, maybe a bit of pain the next day. Half the day. And then I’m OK. Yeah, it’s it’s not it’s not completely I’m not pain free and there was still time, so I think I take co-codamol like for the pain that I have. But it’s nowhere near as bad as it was like 10 years ago. 

Le’Nise: That’s interesting what you say about magnesium, because I see this along with some of the women I work with who have really severe period pain or who have things condition such as endometriosis or adenomyosis, where it’s a contraction in their body and the pain. It also it almost causes them to kind of hold in like tighten everything and kind of they get so used to doubling over in pain or contracting themselves into a ball because, you know, when there are a lot of pain, you kind of all you want to do is lay down. And I know this from my own experience. You want to lay down and you kind of just contract into that kind of. You’re into that foetal position that can be so comforting. But that contraction is a kind of scientific level. You’re using a lot of calcium in the body and then magnesium. It helps. It’s a relaxing mineral. So it helps to release everything. So magnesium, I mean, I recommend it all the time. It’s one of my favourite supplements. But it’s interesting that you’ve seen being able to identify that kind of contraction and having a tool like magnesium and other things you’ve been doing to release that has been so powerful for you. I want to ask about the pain that you’ve been experiencing. Did you ever speak to anyone about it? Did you speak to a doctor? 

Rochelle: Yeah. So I have been I’ve been to the doctors. But that’s such a good question as well. I think there’s this thing about doctors not really paying attention very much to black women in pain. And so that was my experience. But I’m also very, very desensitised to support and the system. So I kind of just go in there knowing that, you know, this is awful. But I’m just going to call it out. I expect the bare minimum because I’ve been I’m used to receiving it, if that makes sense, especially when it comes to systems like education and health care. And so I had kind of done my own research beforehand. They never went through like I’ve never been tested for endo. They’ve never liked to do this. It’s just never been anything more than contraception. Here you go. And so I was very I didn’t want to do be on the pill or anything. I tried the pill once and I was so sad. I remember the day. I felt like I was heaving like wanting to vomit. And my stomach because I have IBS as well. I have a dodgy stomach situation, believe it came out really and it was really hard. And I was like day one. I was like, I know you probably could try this for like seven days and it might get better, but I’m not going to do that. And so the contraception that I decided I would take was the patch because it just wasn’t internal and and it allowed my periods to stop and less pain.

So when I so I did that and it worked. But then I just. I just wanted to be more natural. And so I kind of just the idea that, like hormones I have like a weight issue, I gain weight quickly. And I just I’m not on top of my health enough to kind of then add hormones. And it’s like I kind of know that, like, this is a slippery slope. I’d rather deal with the issue. So I stopped using the patch probably around the same kind of time, 2018. After the years just doing it. And yes, that was that’s basically all the doctors have ever kind of like offered me. It’s never been more of a conversation around other things. I do have friends who have endo and they’ve had to tell me they’ve had to fight to be taken seriously about the pain that they’re experiencing. And I do. And I have wondered sometimes if it could be something more serious, maybe have PCOS or maybe, you know, maybe you have. And I’m also very aware that like that I have to call it out, I’m on a journey. This is why I call myself the vulnerability queen. For me, it’s a process like I. I know that I have to get to a process where I prioritise myself enough to kind of like kick down the doors at the doctor. Well, just to kind of like connect that again to my upbringing, I wasn’t really taught that your kind of needs matter, if that makes sense, just to kind of go right to the example of my mum being like here’s some pads, just get on with it. And so I think there’s definitely a remnant of that kind of thought process and programming when it comes to my own needs. Even today, I’m continuously working on so, you know, and maybe in the future I will go to the doctor if I can’t fix it myself. I’ll go to the doctors and I’ll probably get tested for something. And I don’t know what it could be, but I know that there’s something not right there. 

Le’Nise: I would really encourage you to explore that because, you know, the pain that you you are experiencing isn’t normal. And I really wouldn’t I don’t want you to continue to live like this. Everything you’re saying is like ticking off certain boxes in my mind. I don’t want to do the whole thing. 

It’s like you’re not one of my clients and I don’t want to go down that road on the podcast. But I would really encourage you to speak to a health care professional and explore what options are available for you for testing, because there’s so much there and it’s. It is part of that journey of you knowing that your needs matter. And I want to ask you about that, that that whole idea of growing up and seeing, hearing this programming of all your needs, your needs, they don’t matter. Talk about how you started to understand that your needs do matter and what you’ve been doing to explore that and reinforce that message to yourself. 

Rochelle: So that retreat that I went on in 2018 is called The Bridge. The Bridge Retreat. Yeah. If anyone wants to search it up on Instagram, The Bridge Retreat they’re amazing. And it’s all about grieving like things that happened to you. So it could be anything. It could be the fact that you has your house burn down when you were a child and you lost absolutely everything each could literally. We don’t grieve, and that’s the problem, that we’re not naturally like, oh, society doesn’t allow us to grieve in the way that we should be. So in that I understood that just kind of telling my story and having a space for me to be heard. How much I hadn’t been heard up until that point. And. That was just I mean, this is two years ago. I think it is a bit of a light bulb for me. Oh, wow. Like, I have been ignoring my needs and I’ve been in service for other people because my job is always in service. I help people. I support people. That’s what I do. And so kind of like looking at my co-dependency and all the things that have come out of the me not knowing what my needs are. So the first thing was to kind of get really still and ask myself, what do you need? What are your needs? Which is a wild question. If you have if you don’t like, you realise you don’t know the answer to that question. It’s like. I don’t know it can be like bomb drops. How could I not answer that question for myself?

And I’m still learning how to answer that question. I ask my question because I asked myself that question consistently now that what do you need at this moment? And you can start off with something like you’re dehydrated, you need to drink water. You know, I mean, I drink because because you need the water. And and you and your programming would actually tell you to complete a million different tasks for other people before you drink that water. You know you need that or you need sleep now or you need rest because you’re tired and you’ve done enough for today or or you need to be seen in your relationship by your partner in a way that they haven’t seen you because you’ve not said that you need to be seen in this way. Do you know what I mean? I think it is just like it was many different ways of identifying what I needed for me to kind of start feeling like my needs were worthy.

And then because I think another thing as well is that this. I just think the way in which society is formed is so detrimental to people like because this whole thing about ego. I mean, there’s there were massive conversations about ego. But I think when it comes to kind of like people being really firm in who they are and what they need, it can come off as quite abrasive to other people. And so I think as women as well, you’re consistently like ‘oh no, I’m okay, oh no, I’m okay’ because you just don’t want to be this abrasive kind of abrasive, egotistical kind of person. And also being a Black woman. You don’t want to be aggressive or whatever, or all of the things they put on you.

Le’Nise: Quote, quote, unquote, “aggressive”.

Rochelle: Yeah. So I think, like figuring out your needs and then voicing them. It’s a task in itself and then especially for people that are from similar backgrounds as me, but then doing that and knowing the way in which society kind of sees Black women. And the way we’re seen as, once again, aggressive, attitude problems. I don’t know. A lot like that. You have to grapple both of those things at the same time. And, yeah, it it becomes political. Like when you just want to be healing, like you just want to be working out like who you are and how to be. good. And you’re now navigate these identity politics at the same time. It’s just it’s just a thing. And so, yeah, I think just kind of identifying my needs and working out what they were was just a series of me asking myself questions on a daily basis. What do you need right now? What do you need right now? On a very simple level, was like water but on a deeper level when it comes to the part I play in relationship with people. Getting really real with myself about how I do too much for other people. Why? Why I do too much. And what does that take me away from doing for myself? It’s journey, isn’t it? It’s an ongoing journey. And yeah, I think it’s just a long journey. 

Le’Nise: What do you think about the the idea of the strong Black woman? And how do you think this plays into this? This idea that we as women, we tend to put our needs second anyway? I think that’s the kind of thing that a lot of women do. But as this idea of a strong Black woman, you you feel like you you can’t show vulnerability. You have to be so-called strong all the time because loads of people are standing on your back trying to get ahead. What do you think about that? 

Rochelle: I think the strong Black women like stereotype is mad interesting is what you said is the strong woman, the Black woman is quote unquote strong because she puts everyone else’s needs. Is that strength? Is that strength? And it’s like, why is that stereotype being perpetuated so strongly, you know, because it’s it’s like the Black woman I know are strong. If I thought generationally, when I think about the elder women that I’m aware I’m aware of in my family, they’re very much so women that do carry their families on their backs, for example. Is that is that strength cos I would have preferred to see strength of a woman that put herself first. But then, like I say, it gets it gets political when we start thinking about the reasons why Black women had to pay those role. You know, the fact that Black men are way out of it, especially in America. I need to know more about the way in which the family structure was affected by systemic racism in the UK. I know within America like the men were like taken out of the houses. And obviously you’ve got mass incarceration and other things. So many things paint into kind of why women have to become these strong, but I think it’s strong by default. 

I especially like, within a little aside, like a commercial break. I was on a date once with this white guy from a dating app. I would just let me just try. Let me just try something different. Right. And I realised at that moment this is not I can’t do this because I sat with him and talking and he said that he loves Black women because we’re strong. And I felt fire in my chest when he said that: I love Black women because they’re strong. And I was like, do you know why we have to be strong like that? I was like, you can’t like, this is not, it’s not. What is that? What is that? This is ages ago before I kind of, I suppose, had the vocab to really understand it myself. But the idea that, like Black women are seen as martyrs that carry everybody and everything and forsake themselves is not strength to me. And I hate that it’s romanticised in a way and kind of like it doesn’t allow for softness. Yeah. And. I can see what you want about me. I’m very, very formidable. I’m like, I’ve got this, like, energy. People think that I’m strong and whatever else, I want to be soft, too. Mm hmm. And I don’t want to be around people that don’t allow me to be soft because I’m a strong Black. I’ve had exes that have said that, oh, you’re you’re so intelligent. You’re so strong and I’m just like you, this is where the relationship ends because I just don’t like it. I also quite zero tolerance. What I’m doing was I just like you need to be able to see beneath that. So I think I think it’s damaging. 

But I think that I think that the strengths and stereotype comes from a need to support a family because society has failed the Black family for a very long time. That’s basically that. And if the society wasn’t failing Black families then the strong Black woman wouldn’t need to exist.

Le’Nise: Your story about the date reminds me of this scene. Have you read Queenie by Candice Carty-Williams

It’s a must read it, it’s so good. So there’s a scene in it that’s similar to the way that your date went, when she goes on the dating app, she meets this guy and then he talks about how he loves Black woman and he loves strong Black women. 

And it just kind of the date just kind of descends into chaos from there. Yeah. But yeah, I agree with you that it’s damaging and it leads to this idea that we can’t be soft and it’s also damaging internally because you feel like you can’t be vulnerable because people are expecting so much more from you. And it’s certainly an issue that I’ve had in my life. You know, this idea that you have to be strong, you have to be strong. So many people are depending on you, but this leads into what I want to ask you about, you call yourself the vulnerability queen. Tell me why you tell. You talked a little bit about that in the beginning of the podcast. But just tell me where where this comes from. The Vulnerability Queen. 

Rochelle: So I started a podcast, The Vulnerable Podcast in 2017. And it came about because, like I said, my job, I’ve always been in service. I work with people and young people especially. And the role I had at the time was head of pastoral in the school. So I was like looking after the needs of the whole school. And that job was like a combination of all of the jobs I had done that was similar up until that point. So my job has always been everybody else’s needs. And what was happening is I was kind of hearing a lot of stories about people’s, you know, traumas and stuff. And I was realising that I was hearing the same things over and over again and that we were all going through the same things. And shame stopped us from like experiencing those things. Shame stops us from sharing those things with other people, because you didn’t want to, I suppose, feel embarrassed about them. So that was like that was like one point. I was like the reason why I started the podcast. But then I reflected on my own experience with vulnerability and the way how I was raised to, like, not have any vulnerability at all. You do not speak on things that can make me to be seen like I don’t at an extreme level. Like I feel like when I think about my mom and even the way she conducts himself now, I’m just like.  It’s really sad that nobody, she doesn’t let anyone in to hurt her person. And it’s a shame and it’s that guilt that stops having been very vulnerable.

And so to me, I was like, no, no, ma’am. I’m not going to do that. I’m going to lean into my vulnerability and encourage other people to do so, too. Specifically, people that look like me, that are from places that are similar to where I’m from because shame eats us up so much, so much more. And, you know, I think it’s easy. I think it’s fair to say they it eats Black people up way more because outside of kind of like, the internal shame in your community, you’re dealing with the racism externally and how that shame can manifest in other places. In your work life, in your education, in life. Do you know I mean, is you’re managing so many, you’re spinning so many plates? And it’s killing us because we know that stress turns into sickness. Do you know what I mean? And so for me, vulnerability, I think where it’s like. You get to kind of release things that you shouldn’t be carrying for yourself or holding something that isn’t yours. And by no means am I like some kind of guru. I’m figuring this out, but I kind of. 

I want to call it a thing like I want to say that I am. I am consciously and intentionally working in vulnerability on a daily basis to support other people, to kind of decide that by actually modelling, that to me is really important. And not just to find, just to be like, really, honest if I’ve had to find some balance with that. Because when you’re coming from trauma initially, when you think about vulnerability, it’s like I’m going to tell the world everything about me and everything that’s happened to me. And it’s going to be some type of oil spill of trauma everywhere. Right. Because initially, that’s what vulnerability is like when you first step into it. And on the healing journey. Oh, no, I, I don’t have to say all the things, but I can still get to model vulnerability in a different way. So I’ve had to kind of on the vulnerability spectrum, let’s figure out where is the safe space for me to do the work that I know that I’m here to do, but in a safe way for me. And that’s just something I’ve been able to pick up on and develop my therapy and stuff. Yeah, that’s my thing. I think it is modelling vulnerability. And it makes me think I hope one is my ex-students DM me a couple of days ago, I was just talking about the things that she’s been experiencing and the books that she’s been reading and how she likes my Instagram and stuff like that. And I’m like imagining an 18 year old Black girl from South London is so typically not what you would put together. But she’s able to kind of like see the types of things I am posting and kind of apply these things to her own life and her own personal healing journey. And that’s that’s the kind of I that’s the kind of that’s how I kind of want to that’s what I want to do. 

Le’Nise: It’s hard to be vulnerable. And it’s hard to. I love how you said that there’s a spectrum to vulnerability, because I think that a lot of people think that to be vulnerable, you have to completely open yourself up. And if you’re used to holding things for yourself and having everything internalised for so long and the idea of even opening up a little bit is really it’s really frightening. Well, I want to ask, is that spectrum of vulnerability that you mentioned? How can someone who is listening to this and thinking, I connect with that, I connect with that need to be more open, to be more vulnerable. And vulnerability isn’t a bad thing. How can they start on this journey? 

Rochelle: I think journalling. Well. I was thinking, like of some big items and I was like, no, there’s no big answer. I think journalling means is helps me to to tap into those kind of feelings that I don’t want to say out loud to everybody. And. Sometimes I’ll just be, there’s journalling that you’re encouraged to do at night. And when you wake up in the morning, there’s that. And that should definitely be done. I think it’s important to do that before you go to sleep. And when you wake up in the morning, put this to me. I’ve caught some of my best like vulnerable, I think best vulnerable moments not like that there’s some type of like race. Like in the middle of the day when something just bubbles up and it just comes out and I’m like, whoa. And it almost brings me to tears. And then I write it down because that needs to it needs to leave. I find that I think giving the vulnerability a space is important. So when you’re having a moment where you’re feeling vulnerable and it’s come out of nowhere, for example, society’s programming will have you bury it and put it back down. And I’m like, create a table for it. Like, let’s put it on a long time. What is going on? Like the like like you would serve dinner on, like a table that’s set. Like, let’s bring that to the table. Do you know I mean. And what is that about. Write it down. You don’t need to know what it’s about right now. But but I think it’s important to pay attention. And I like the ritual of paying attention to me is writing it down. I think people can start there.

I would also encourage, I find friendship really interesting because I have had the most phenomenal friends in my life. People that I can I can speak to about anything. And I am more mindful now that a lot of people do not have that. A lot of people have really superficial friendships. And that, to me, makes me feel claustrophobic. How do you not get to share a part of who you are? So I would say if you’re in a friendship circle and you feel like you don’t get to tap into that part of you that you’ve seen and heard, then make a new friend like put yourself out there. I’m very much just say, like, I need somebody who I can be friends with and be myself with. Write that down, call in and then go out to these places and meet someone that you that can be your friend in that way, because it’s important that outside of yourself that other people are able to hold space for you too you know, in a way, it’s kind of like validation of who you are because we’re not islands are we as people like we feel the things that we feel. But it’s incredible to be supported by someone else. You know, if you don’t have that family, I don’t, it has become my friends. And if it’s not your friends, then your partner. You know, I think it’s important to have someone. I think it’s important to take inventory of who is in your life and who is actually able to show up for you. And if there isn’t anyone you can identify, call someone else in. You have to. For me that’s a non-negotiable. You have to have people around you that are that allow you to be your complete self. 

Le’Nise: It’s interesting, you talk about details about journalling and then you talk about how you relate and how you’re vulnerable to others. And this idea, it’s two types of vulnerability. It’s being vulnerable to yourself and acknowledging how you feel and really going there and going deep into certain thoughts and feelings. And then also allowing yourself to be open and vulnerable with others and finding that that support network. I think those two areas are really interesting and really powerful and give people a good starting point. So journaling is something that anyone can do. You can do it on your phone. You can get a book. You know, a bit of paper, doesn’t matter. But this even writing a couple of words down and then thinking about those words is really powerful. So I love. I love those two options that you gave there. I want to talk more about your work. So tell us about your your business, the social enterprise Ting

Rochelle: Yes. Like I’ve said, I’ve been working with people for a really long time. And in 2018, 2018 was a really pivotal year for me. I keep saying it, don’t I? I look at my chart, my solar chart or something and see what was happening there. And so I left education that year because it became too much. Once again, like we don’t get to separate identities. And as a Black woman working in majority white spaces, it was way too much for me. And supporting Black students at the same time, so it was kind of being asked to support these kids and then fighting for my own kind of like humanity. And if I could, I could no longer do both things.

So I left and I went to work within the creative industries supporting people to get mentors in the creative industries. I realised that and realised that the issue that I faced in education existed outside too. So spaces weren’t safe for Black and Brown people. There was a lot of opportunities created for marginalised groups in terms of like an internship programme and here’s a mentor or here’s some funding. And it was kind of like plasters on wounds. Let’s just give them something. So we feel good. We feel benevolent. And I was just like this doesn’t feel right, because I’ve spent I’d say the best the best part of the last 4-5 is hooking people up with the most phenomenal opportunities, but also having conversations with them about their ability to access those opportunities. So, for example, their family is being made evicted and they’ve just got this mentor and they really want to make use of that opportunity, but they’re unable to do so because of life and the similar things that are coming up over and over again. Mental health is a big thing that comes up, not having jobs for young people. Massive. And how that’s affecting their mental health. And so I was having those conversations way more. And I’m realising that my job title wasn’t paying me to kind of make do with that kind of pastoral stuff. I was just doing it and realising that if we could kind of put some support in place for that, a kind of an equity piece that allows these young Black and Brown people to access these opportunities and then thrive. 

Then that’s like a that’s a big piece of work that could literally change a lot. In which the way the industry is because they like you know, everyone talks about retention and recruitment and we need to be more diverse. And it’s kind of like. I just want to get into the nitty gritty of the reasons why. And I just didn’t feel like anybody else saw. And to be fair, my jobs and my life experience have allowed me to see things in ways that people can’t. So it’s not like me throwing shame on the industry, it’s more maybe like let me take my lens and what I know, to be sure and do something. So Ting is essentially a personal and professional development service for companies and young people. And so with companies that might look like, what, I’m going to come in. I’ve had conversations with companies that have internship programmes that I just like, ah yeah, a director gets an email and then we just kind of find it two weeks a month. I know this is nepotism first of all, you know. I mean, like, that’s not going to support diversity. Like, there’s so much going on there. And it’s like, OK, I can come in and help you to develop that internship programme and create like an internship scheme that allows you to kind of get into more diverse communities because I have access there.

And then I can work with the young people to prepare them to go into your space because they need to know they need to have resilience to be in that space. We also need to be a safe space and receive them and know what you’re both kind of working with. So that’s why I’m saying my life has kind of allowed me to see things on both sides and Ting is that we provide the personal and professional for companies and personal and professional for young people. And it’s at the beginning stages. And so I’m kind of at the stage and I was kind of starting sounding like a new entrepreneur, figuring out like the best ways in which to kind of get this done, it’s super new, but I feel like it’s I think it’s going to be really good. 

Le’Nise: Yeah. I think it’s incredible. What an amazing idea, because you’re right. These companies have these diversity programmes, these internships. 

But it’s kind of like it’s this idea that you, the the young people going in, they need to be prepared to code switch and they need to know what that code is that they’re switching to. It’s like I think I used to work in advertising for a long time, and the example that always sticks in my mind as young people from various backgrounds coming in and it’s the sushi with clients example, you need to tell them that they need to learn how to use chopsticks and that they might have sushi with clients. And some people say, oh, they’ve never had that in their life. They have no idea that how to use chopsticks and kind of need to have that conversation with them. And there’s a million other examples. Yeah. I really love that. 

Rochelle: It’s the cultural capital. It’s like they’re not coming to the table, like you say, with the same utensils that everybody else has. Because if you think about the advertising is extremely middle-class, extremely white. And if you think about these young people that work in advertising, it’s very likely that they’ve had dinner parties with other people that work in advertising when they were like 12. I mean, I have been in conversations about things and pitches and brands and stuff, and I didn’t know anything about that until two years ago. I’m that person who had to learn how to eat with chopsticks pretty quickly because I had to be able to understand it and explain it to younger people that were coming in. And I think I’ve just got to a place I suppose, once again, going back to the beginning of this conversation about needs and worthiness.

I’ve I’ve I’m starting to kind of understand that I am the best person to do this job. And like, I don’t get to opt out of that because of my own lack of self things that I’ve had growing up. It’s like, oh, no, this is time to step into who you are now. And in spite of everything, it’s I know this is this is what is that you need to be doing, at least for now. And it requires you to show up in full health. So you’re right. I do need to check out my my period situation. I need to do a lot of things because I. Yeah. When you get to a place where you’ve been doing the work, wherever the left looks like for you and you and you have places like this tells me is actualisation. You have to know that you have to step into that wave, firing on all cylinders, operating on your best health, hydrated, well fed, it’s the only way. Because the truth is this: I can be. I can be as ambitious and romanticise this new thing that I’m about to do all I want. If I’m not healthy, it’s not going to work. And the young people I want to support, they’re not going to get the support. So there’s there’s no there’s no, there should be no trophies for martyrdom. And I think I think that this is why this is the the programming and I’m doing the vulnerability for me. I am so just like I have been taught. I have seen a million times so many women from my community have been martyrs, so many because they didn’t know any better. And I do. And to me, it’s like I definitely have been a martyr for so long. And now I’m like, I don’t want to do that anymore. 

Luckily, I’m still alive and I still have my my faculties in place. And I still have I’m so young enough to kind of switch it around. And so I think that there’s definitely a strong call to be like that. We need to kind of, you know, get our house together and really start into the next the next phase of my life. 

Le’Nise: And so to round up our conversation, if someone’s listening and you want them to take one thing away from all the amazing things that you’ve said, what would you want that to be? 

Rochelle: Hold space for yourself. I haven’t said that explicitly, but I think the whole conversation, there’s been examples of me holding space myself and not all the time did I action anything because I didn’t have the tools to action. I suppose even when I was 11, like having my period, like four months before I even said anything, I was I was present and something was happening and eventually actioned it. And I just think that if you can hold space with yourself and be honest about how you’re feeling good and bad. I call the thing a thing like this is not it’s not something that should be ignored. Do not ignore what you are feeling. Hold space for yourself. Do not ignore what you’re feeling. Write it down and speak about it to someone that you trust. And that and that is on everything. Anything like it. There’s nothing too small. Too big. Like literally anything. It’s so important.

Le’Nise: Thank you so much. I think that’s so powerful. Where can listeners find out more about you?

Rochelle: You follow me on Instagram at @allysarochelle. And I’m quite active on Instagram. So follow me there and then you’ll find links to everything I do.

Le’Nise: Great and all of your links will be in the show notes. Thank you so much for coming on the show. 

Rochelle: Thank you. I really enjoyed this conversation. It’s allowed me to tap into a different part of my experience. And so thank you so much. Amazing. Thank you.